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Trevedian Amarr KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:53:00 - [1] Edited by: Trevedian on 05/06/2007 15:53:14 Has mining become obsolete since there is sooo much isk floating around? Is it hurting EVE that people are too rich? Should we scrap insurance payouts outside of empire? Do we need better isk sinks? What new and interesting isk sinks are on the horizon? Should something every1 wants be sold only by NPC's? (Boosters) I can remember when EVE was like the wild west, when it hurt bad to lose a ship, but that made fighting even more exciting. The game used to be wide open, now it seems limited by restraints developed to hurt small gang warfare and solo PVP. Cap ships and POS's are tedious after the initial novelty wears off... Suggestions? Comments? Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:55:00 - [2] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/06/2007 15:54:48 Yes. I think so. Back in the days, there was a "cutoff" between people who were good at making money and those who weren't. The cutoff wasn't that big though--a billion was loads. Today, a billion is pocket change for anyone who is good at making money unless they intentionally use it as they earn it, or PvP all the time rather than rat/mission/mine. But the people who suck at making money haven't gotten any better, and so they feel alienated by the gap. A corpmate of mine decided a few days ago he would go get himself in a dreadnought. A few days of ratting and he's already bought his dreadnought and fittings . --23 Member--
Xtreem Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:56:00 - [3] Edited by: Xtreem on 05/06/2007 15:56:24 yes, too many people have 2 many big toys and major fleets are too easy to amass and not too much or a worry to lose. insurance should only pay a top of 50% and build costs for all ships needs to x3 capital ships, bar freighter need to have 4x-8x there current build costs, make them truly epic, i would prefer all capitals o get a massive buff in regards to defence and 8x the cost, excellent items, but alot more rare than they are now /edit/ yes i pvp alot, yes i make ok money, yes i have full carrier and dread skills and still want the above to happen.
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:57:00 - [4] Scrap the whole concept of insurance. ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:57:00 - [5] Originally by: Xtreem yes, too many people have 2 many big toys and major fleets are too easy to amass and not too much or a worry to lose. insurance should only pay a top of 50% and build costs for all ships needs to x3 capital ships, bar freighter need to have 4x-8x there current build costs, make them truly epic The build cost increase would just trash the mineral market, not deal with the ISK problem. IMO primarily insurance has to be completely removed. If it was removed, this would force people to fly smaller ships--combat wouldn't be nearly as dominated by battleships. It would also drastically decrease the amount of ISK in the game, since the insurance payouts are just flooding the game with ISK. --23 Member--
Xtreem Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:00:00 - [6] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xtreem yes, too many people have 2 many big toys and major fleets are too easy to amass and not too much or a worry to lose. insurance should only pay a top of 50% and build costs for all ships needs to x3 capital ships, bar freighter need to have 4x-8x there current build costs, make them truly epic The build cost increase would just trash the mineral market, not deal with the ISK problem. IMO primarily insurance has to be completely removed. If it was removed, this would force people to fly smaller ships--combat wouldn't be nearly as dominated by battleships. It would also drastically decrease the amount of ISK in the game, since the insurance payouts are just flooding the game with ISK. i dont think it would trash the market, the problem is, we need to make bs a very expensive thing, you would leave the mineral requirment the same, and just cut insurance massivly or perhaps even remove it. however this would be harsh for new players, perhaps the level of poss insurance lowers per class level so by the time your at BS you can only get a 20% payout, 50% for bc, 75% for cruisers etc to help the new guys
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Xtreem however this would be harsh for new players, perhaps the level of poss insurance lowers per class level so by the time your at BS you can only get a 20% payout, 50% for bc, 75% for cruisers etc to help the new guys But if insurance is removed, the new players wouldn't need bigger ships as quickly because other players would have smaller ships also. --23 Member--
Sereifex Daku	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:01:00 - [8] I totally agree with the OP. Less IS more! When I first started playing the game I had very little isk, it made me improvise, it made me go out into 0.0 in a battleship fitted with only medium turrets, I was that desperate to make money, and it felt GREAT! I sincerely hope CCP start an in game depression soon, it would give me a reason to play again.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:01:00 - [9] I'm still poor That probably makes me biased, though, seeing as I'd love nothing more than everyone else starting to fly cheaper ships too- it'd help alleviate my chronic poorness --------
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Trevedian What new and interesting isk sinks are on the horizon? I can remember when EVE was like the wild west, when it hurt bad to lose a ship, but that made fighting even more exciting. The game used to be wide open, now it seems limited by restraints developed to hurt small gang warfare and solo PVP. Cap ships and POS's are tedious after the initial novelty wears off... Suggestions? Comments? Only new ISK sink I am aware of comes with bringing "Heat" into the game. A module disabled by overheating will only be repairable at a station and paying for the repairs. Other than that yeah...money is too easy in EVE just now. When I first started having 10 mil in the bank was doing pretty well. Now it is chump change. I have not seen CCP comment on this but my sense is they have been pushing prices down and/or making people wealthier in an attempt to encourage more PvP. The idea being if ships are cheap/easily come by then people will be more likely to risk them. However I do not think that is working. Inexpensive ships or not people do not like to get blown up period. I bet if ships were free some people would still logoffski. If anything I believe the player base being wealthier hurts more than it helps. EVE was great back when it hurt a bit more to lose stuff. You were more careful whatever your profession. You thought longer and harder on whether you should use an expensive and better mod or a more easily affordable mod. When mineral prices were higher there was more reason to brave low sec...now there really is no point.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:05:00 - [11] I'm not too rich, but i do have a big garage. 12 ships or so. Ok ok, it's not some billioneers "super duper hangar", but for me it's a rather nice collection
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:07:00 - [12] Edited by: DarkMatter on 05/06/2007 16:07:32 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xtreem however this would be harsh for new players, perhaps the level of poss insurance lowers per class level so by the time your at BS you can only get a 20% payout, 50% for bc, 75% for cruisers etc to help the new guys But if insurance is removed, the new players wouldn't need bigger ships as quickly because other players would have smaller ships also. I doubt it... Even if there was no insurance, I'd would have had no problem fielding a new BS once or twice a week, and I'm one of the people who hated spending time making ISK... Building the homestead
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:13:00 - [13] Originally by: DarkMatter I doubt it... Even if there was no insurance, I'd would have had no problem fielding a new BS once or twice a week, and I'm one of the people who hated spending time making ISK... I would bet you'd find it harder to make money if insurance was removed. If people had to hoard their money more to buy replacement ships they will have less to spend on faction mods or other bling. As demand for faction/named mods (which I am guessing is a fair portion of your income) decreases the price will drop and you will earn less making that BS that much harder to afford.
Trevedian Amarr KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Trevedian What new and interesting isk sinks are on the horizon? I can remember when EVE was like the wild west, when it hurt bad to lose a ship, but that made fighting even more exciting. The game used to be wide open, now it seems limited by restraints developed to hurt small gang warfare and solo PVP. Cap ships and POS's are tedious after the initial novelty wears off... Suggestions? Comments? Only new ISK sink I am aware of comes with bringing "Heat" into the game. A module disabled by overheating will only be repairable at a station and paying for the repairs. Other than that yeah...money is too easy in EVE just now. When I first started having 10 mil in the bank was doing pretty well. Now it is chump change. I have not seen CCP comment on this but my sense is they have been pushing prices down and/or making people wealthier in an attempt to encourage more PvP. The idea being if ships are cheap/easily come by then people will be more likely to risk them. However I do not think that is working. Inexpensive ships or not people do not like to get blown up period. I bet if ships were free some people would still logoffski. If anything I believe the player base being wealthier hurts more than it helps. EVE was great back when it hurt a bit more to lose stuff. You were more careful whatever your profession. You thought longer and harder on whether you should use an expensive and better mod or a more easily affordable mod. When mineral prices were higher there was more reason to brave low sec...now there really is no point. I totally agree, the idea that; Cheap Ships = More PVP.... IS WRONG! It is very time consuming to buy a new ship, new modules, move the ship, etc. I hope CCP are listening, its obvious to everyone that the too much isk ingame is an issue. More and more isk is created everyday, much more than is lost/destroyed. Eventually this will need to be dealt with, sooner or later... Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Gong	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:16:00 - [15] Edited by: Gong on 05/06/2007 16:17:32 Edited by: Gong on 05/06/2007 16:15:40 Mining can't have become obsolete, because of too much isk floating around. You can't build ships with isks directly, you need minerals. The only ways to get minerals are refining mined minerals and reprocessing loot/alloys or npc-sold items. Reprocessing npc-sold items is usually still a loss, and that's how it's supposed to be. So almost all mins come from mining and reprocessing loot/alloys and that's uneffected by how many isk floats arround. Mining+refining and reprocessing loot/alloys from rat compete with eachother. If there is less mining, then there is happening more reprocessing. Ok, and hauler spawns of course, they are mostly a source of low mins in 0.0.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:17:00 - [16] ...We could always tax Jita, that would be an isk sink. /ducks --------
24h01	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Bistot Kid Scrap the whole concept of insurance. /signed ...and add more isk sinks (perhaps heat can help ?)
Whu FlungPoo	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:37:00 - [18] Edited by: Whu FlungPoo on 05/06/2007 16:36:27 Read the Dev Blog. This is all being taken care of. This entire thread is a waste of time. All static complexes will be hidden. Their's a 10/10 in system I travel through daily.. The same 5 people are their 16 hours a day. These complexes are dumping 100s of billions of isk on the market every day.
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/06/2007 15:54:48 Yes. I think so. Back in the days, there was a "cutoff" between people who were good at making money and those who weren't. The cutoff wasn't that big though--a billion was loads. Today, a billion is pocket change for anyone who is good at making money unless they intentionally use it as they earn it, or PvP all the time rather than rat/mission/mine. But the people who suck at making money haven't gotten any better, and so they feel alienated by the gap. A corpmate of mine decided a few days ago he would go get himself in a dreadnought. A few days of ratting and he's already bought his dreadnought and fittings . I see a lot of people complaining on the forums about how they can't make money. It just isn't hard to make isk in game, even if you're a newb. And I don't mean grining out veld, either... ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Whu FlungPoo Read the Dev Blog. This is all being taken care of. This entire thread is a waste of time. All static complexes will be hidden. Their's a 10/10 in system I travel through daily.. The same 5 people are their 16 hours a day. These complexes are dumping 100s of billions of isk on the market every day. Most of what the complexes are dumping are deadspace faction items, not ISK itself, though the overseers effects do represent pure ISK. --23 Member--
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: DarkMatter I doubt it... Even if there was no insurance, I'd would have had no problem fielding a new BS once or twice a week, and I'm one of the people who hated spending time making ISK... I would bet you'd find it harder to make money if insurance was removed. If people had to hoard their money more to buy replacement ships they will have less to spend on faction mods or other bling. As demand for faction/named mods (which I am guessing is a fair portion of your income) decreases the price will drop and you will earn less making that BS that much harder to afford. Hmm, most of my wealth comes from T2 item & mineral redistribution. I never really dealt with faction mods... Don't run missions unless I need standing. And don't rat hunt... I have not played since the frieghter ganking started happening, so I guess it would only take one fully loaded frieghter loss to bankrupt me... But if I could operate my frieghter as normal, 1-2 BS a week would not be a problem without insurance... Building the homestead
TornSoul BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Bistot Kid Scrap the whole concept of insurance. Agreed. Things changed (to the worse imo) after insurrance was introduced. BIG Lottery [url
Korizan Oort Cloud Industries	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:49:00 - [23] The longer any game is out means more people will become rich. And there are still a lot of us who think 1 Billion ISK A LOT of money and we spend months or a year getting it. But there are ways to get money faster but lots of us are content to make money doing the things we enjoy and not worry about if it is slower via this method or that. Personally my corp will be mining forever and the money shows up when it shows up. BUT if you want a NERF. REMOVE THE ABILITY TO REPROCESS MODS and AMMO. That would fix your issues and majorly change Eve in one simple action. However it is too extreme in my opinion so I wouldn't worry about that nerf But it is fun to think about if it ever happened. Miners would be needed once again I think
Haks'he Lirky 8th	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:52:00 - [24] Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 05/06/2007 16:51:35 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xtreem yes, too many people have 2 many big toys and major fleets are too easy to amass and not too much or a worry to lose. insurance should only pay a top of 50% and build costs for all ships needs to x3 capital ships, bar freighter need to have 4x-8x there current build costs, make them truly epic The build cost increase would just trash the mineral market, not deal with the ISK problem. IMO primarily insurance has to be completely removed. If it was removed, this would force people to fly smaller ships--combat wouldn't be nearly as dominated by battleships. It would also drastically decrease the amount of ISK in the game, since the insurance payouts are just flooding the game with ISK. I would like to add that with insurance battleships are almost the cheapest ships to loose, sometimes you can even come out with a small profit if you built them your self. kill insurance and kill the blob? Would it be enough to kill insurance only in -0.6 systems and below? or introduce reduced payoff according to where the ship was lost (sec) and of course it's just silly that you get insurance when concord smacks you around.
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:54:00 - [25] A lot of what people are talking about here don't actually add ISK to the economy, it just moves it around. Things like NPC buy orders (including overseer effects), insurance payouts, bounties, mission rewards add ISK to the economy. At various times, I've seen mention of nerfing one or more of these ISK faucets, but so far it hasn't happened in any really significant way. It's not clear that nerfing the faucets is the right answer either since that can lead to ISK being hoarded by those who are good at farming the remaining faucets, which will cause the economy to stagnate. Definitely nerfing faucets can be part of the solution, but you've got to be careful so that ISK continues to move through the economy. ----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..."
SiJira	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:56:00 - [26] i dont believe there is a problem but insurance can be tweaked a lot ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Corb Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:59:00 - [27] I think the isk problem came from the boosting of 0.0 belt rats. Remember the empire Level 4 Raven missiong runners were making all the isk, and the 0.0 folks raised hell? CCP boosted NPC bounties and BS spawns. When I first started 0.0 life over 1.5 years ago I was amazed at the isk I was making. I do remember what it was like to be broke all the time and to try and find new ways to make isk. I made my money on Lvl 4 Courier missions when the agents were giving out loads of POS compenents. CCP caught wind of it and stopped it, and then stopped items for time rewards, and then stopped items all together, and now just give isk. Not as much fun anymore because I found myself grinding away wondering what the next cool item was going to be. No insurance would solve a lot of problems in game but then you run into the new players having a rough time....not like they already to anyways...to much sp gap in game.
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:59:00 - [28] You could also reduce in-game isk by raising taxes, or adding new taxes. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:10:00 - [29] One possible alteration to the Insurance system. Instead of multiple levels of coverage (what idiot would only cover partial cost on a ship?), just have the insurance system replace the hull itself. A single lump payment that for 12 weeks, if you lose the ship, you have a replacement hull sitting in the hangar where you clone. No money added, you still need to replace the components. This saves the insurance system from flooding the market with ISK in the event a ship ever does actually come in cheap enough that platinum insurance turns a profit. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:10:00 - [30] It is definately becoming a better and better idea to scale insurance down - and perhaps remove it entirely with time. It only hurts the large t1 ships though. People flying t2 ships are already facing a very low repayment on a loss. Those people would only experience an increase in buying power, most likely. Its an idea worth pursuing none the less. As far as mining becoming obsolete, it can't because of the amount of isk floating around. If anything its because of alternative mineral sources. Alloys, mods and such. If mining was the only avenue of mineral creation, the price should more or less follow the inflation. If not for the existance of NPC sold items that can be refined - which tied in with the above statement. The mineral prices are not allowed a free reign - and prohibits the entire market from following the amount of isk flowing into the game. I seriously believe its a significant part of the core of the increasing ability to afford luxury items. Its a complicated matter for sure - especially if you want to make sure any changes does not give more to the haves or hurt the have nots extensively. One option of both increasing an isk sink and encourage use of smaller ships and lower tier modules, could be to increase the production costs, scaling extremely with size/level. Can't quite figure how that would play out though. Even if insurance was kept as it is, based on material cost, it would still hurt if fx. 30% of the ships cost was from the actual _production_ cost. I would rather production of more items from NPCs over to the players (POS elements and fuel fx), which admittedly would remove some isk sinks - and introduce more general ones like above. It would allow for a more real chance of prices to follow the isk influx. Inflation could still exist, but the proliferation of luxury items should take hit from it. Any way of pushing people increasingly back to T1 items, could also give an interesting side effect of moving isk from the relatively limited group of T2 producers to the far more widespread T1 market. Anyways thats 2 cent for you. Shoot it down. :)

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