EVE Search - Has EVE Become Too Rich ? (in-game)

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Has EVE Become Too Rich ? (in-game)

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Trevedian Amarr KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:53:00 - [1] Edited by: Trevedian on 05/06/2007 15:53:14 Has mining become obsolete since there is sooo much isk floating around? Is it hurting EVE that people are too rich? Should we scrap insurance payouts outside of empire? Do we need better isk sinks? What new and interesting isk sinks are on the horizon? Should something every1 wants be sold only by NPC's? (Boosters) I can remember when EVE was like the wild west, when it hurt bad to lose a ship, but that made fighting even more exciting. The game used to be wide open, now it seems limited by restraints developed to hurt small gang warfare and solo PVP. Cap ships and POS's are tedious after the initial novelty wears off... Suggestions? Comments? Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:55:00 - [2] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/06/2007 15:54:48 Yes. I think so. Back in the days, there was a "cutoff" between people who were good at making money and those who weren't. The cutoff wasn't that big though--a billion was loads. Today, a billion is pocket change for anyone who is good at making money unless they intentionally use it as they earn it, or PvP all the time rather than rat/mission/mine. But the people who suck at making money haven't gotten any better, and so they feel alienated by the gap. A corpmate of mine decided a few days ago he would go get himself in a dreadnought. A few days of ratting and he's already bought his dreadnought and fittings . --23 Member--
Xtreem Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:56:00 - [3] Edited by: Xtreem on 05/06/2007 15:56:24 yes, too many people have 2 many big toys and major fleets are too easy to amass and not too much or a worry to lose. insurance should only pay a top of 50% and build costs for all ships needs to x3 capital ships, bar freighter need to have 4x-8x there current build costs, make them truly epic, i would prefer all capitals o get a massive buff in regards to defence and 8x the cost, excellent items, but alot more rare than they are now /edit/ yes i pvp alot, yes i make ok money, yes i have full carrier and dread skills and still want the above to happen.
Bistot Kid The First Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:57:00 - [4] Scrap the whole concept of insurance. ------------------------------------- Hold my calls and sack my cook -------------------------------------
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 15:57:00 - [5] Originally by: Xtreem yes, too many people have 2 many big toys and major fleets are too easy to amass and not too much or a worry to lose. insurance should only pay a top of 50% and build costs for all ships needs to x3 capital ships, bar freighter need to have 4x-8x there current build costs, make them truly epic The build cost increase would just trash the mineral market, not deal with the ISK problem. IMO primarily insurance has to be completely removed. If it was removed, this would force people to fly smaller ships--combat wouldn't be nearly as dominated by battleships. It would also drastically decrease the amount of ISK in the game, since the insurance payouts are just flooding the game with ISK. --23 Member--
Xtreem Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:00:00 - [6] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xtreem yes, too many people have 2 many big toys and major fleets are too easy to amass and not too much or a worry to lose. insurance should only pay a top of 50% and build costs for all ships needs to x3 capital ships, bar freighter need to have 4x-8x there current build costs, make them truly epic The build cost increase would just trash the mineral market, not deal with the ISK problem. IMO primarily insurance has to be completely removed. If it was removed, this would force people to fly smaller ships--combat wouldn't be nearly as dominated by battleships. It would also drastically decrease the amount of ISK in the game, since the insurance payouts are just flooding the game with ISK. i dont think it would trash the market, the problem is, we need to make bs a very expensive thing, you would leave the mineral requirment the same, and just cut insurance massivly or perhaps even remove it. however this would be harsh for new players, perhaps the level of poss insurance lowers per class level so by the time your at BS you can only get a 20% payout, 50% for bc, 75% for cruisers etc to help the new guys
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Xtreem however this would be harsh for new players, perhaps the level of poss insurance lowers per class level so by the time your at BS you can only get a 20% payout, 50% for bc, 75% for cruisers etc to help the new guys But if insurance is removed, the new players wouldn't need bigger ships as quickly because other players would have smaller ships also. --23 Member--
Sereifex Daku	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:01:00 - [8] I totally agree with the OP. Less IS more! When I first started playing the game I had very little isk, it made me improvise, it made me go out into 0.0 in a battleship fitted with only medium turrets, I was that desperate to make money, and it felt GREAT! I sincerely hope CCP start an in game depression soon, it would give me a reason to play again.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:01:00 - [9] I'm still poor That probably makes me biased, though, seeing as I'd love nothing more than everyone else starting to fly cheaper ships too- it'd help alleviate my chronic poorness --------
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Trevedian What new and interesting isk sinks are on the horizon? I can remember when EVE was like the wild west, when it hurt bad to lose a ship, but that made fighting even more exciting. The game used to be wide open, now it seems limited by restraints developed to hurt small gang warfare and solo PVP. Cap ships and POS's are tedious after the initial novelty wears off... Suggestions? Comments? Only new ISK sink I am aware of comes with bringing "Heat" into the game. A module disabled by overheating will only be repairable at a station and paying for the repairs. Other than that yeah...money is too easy in EVE just now. When I first started having 10 mil in the bank was doing pretty well. Now it is chump change. I have not seen CCP comment on this but my sense is they have been pushing prices down and/or making people wealthier in an attempt to encourage more PvP. The idea being if ships are cheap/easily come by then people will be more likely to risk them. However I do not think that is working. Inexpensive ships or not people do not like to get blown up period. I bet if ships were free some people would still logoffski. If anything I believe the player base being wealthier hurts more than it helps. EVE was great back when it hurt a bit more to lose stuff. You were more careful whatever your profession. You thought longer and harder on whether you should use an expensive and better mod or a more easily affordable mod. When mineral prices were higher there was more reason to brave low sec...now there really is no point.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:05:00 - [11] I'm not too rich, but i do have a big garage. 12 ships or so. Ok ok, it's not some billioneers "super duper hangar", but for me it's a rather nice collection
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:07:00 - [12] Edited by: DarkMatter on 05/06/2007 16:07:32 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xtreem however this would be harsh for new players, perhaps the level of poss insurance lowers per class level so by the time your at BS you can only get a 20% payout, 50% for bc, 75% for cruisers etc to help the new guys But if insurance is removed, the new players wouldn't need bigger ships as quickly because other players would have smaller ships also. I doubt it... Even if there was no insurance, I'd would have had no problem fielding a new BS once or twice a week, and I'm one of the people who hated spending time making ISK... Building the homestead
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:13:00 - [13] Originally by: DarkMatter I doubt it... Even if there was no insurance, I'd would have had no problem fielding a new BS once or twice a week, and I'm one of the people who hated spending time making ISK... I would bet you'd find it harder to make money if insurance was removed. If people had to hoard their money more to buy replacement ships they will have less to spend on faction mods or other bling. As demand for faction/named mods (which I am guessing is a fair portion of your income) decreases the price will drop and you will earn less making that BS that much harder to afford.
Trevedian Amarr KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Trevedian What new and interesting isk sinks are on the horizon? I can remember when EVE was like the wild west, when it hurt bad to lose a ship, but that made fighting even more exciting. The game used to be wide open, now it seems limited by restraints developed to hurt small gang warfare and solo PVP. Cap ships and POS's are tedious after the initial novelty wears off... Suggestions? Comments? Only new ISK sink I am aware of comes with bringing "Heat" into the game. A module disabled by overheating will only be repairable at a station and paying for the repairs. Other than that yeah...money is too easy in EVE just now. When I first started having 10 mil in the bank was doing pretty well. Now it is chump change. I have not seen CCP comment on this but my sense is they have been pushing prices down and/or making people wealthier in an attempt to encourage more PvP. The idea being if ships are cheap/easily come by then people will be more likely to risk them. However I do not think that is working. Inexpensive ships or not people do not like to get blown up period. I bet if ships were free some people would still logoffski. If anything I believe the player base being wealthier hurts more than it helps. EVE was great back when it hurt a bit more to lose stuff. You were more careful whatever your profession. You thought longer and harder on whether you should use an expensive and better mod or a more easily affordable mod. When mineral prices were higher there was more reason to brave low sec...now there really is no point. I totally agree, the idea that; Cheap Ships = More PVP.... IS WRONG! It is very time consuming to buy a new ship, new modules, move the ship, etc. I hope CCP are listening, its obvious to everyone that the too much isk ingame is an issue. More and more isk is created everyday, much more than is lost/destroyed. Eventually this will need to be dealt with, sooner or later... Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Gong	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:16:00 - [15] Edited by: Gong on 05/06/2007 16:17:32 Edited by: Gong on 05/06/2007 16:15:40 Mining can't have become obsolete, because of too much isk floating around. You can't build ships with isks directly, you need minerals. The only ways to get minerals are refining mined minerals and reprocessing loot/alloys or npc-sold items. Reprocessing npc-sold items is usually still a loss, and that's how it's supposed to be. So almost all mins come from mining and reprocessing loot/alloys and that's uneffected by how many isk floats arround. Mining+refining and reprocessing loot/alloys from rat compete with eachother. If there is less mining, then there is happening more reprocessing. Ok, and hauler spawns of course, they are mostly a source of low mins in 0.0.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:17:00 - [16] ...We could always tax Jita, that would be an isk sink. /ducks --------
24h01	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Bistot Kid Scrap the whole concept of insurance. /signed ...and add more isk sinks (perhaps heat can help ?)
Whu FlungPoo	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:37:00 - [18] Edited by: Whu FlungPoo on 05/06/2007 16:36:27 Read the Dev Blog. This is all being taken care of. This entire thread is a waste of time. All static complexes will be hidden. Their's a 10/10 in system I travel through daily.. The same 5 people are their 16 hours a day. These complexes are dumping 100s of billions of isk on the market every day.
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/06/2007 15:54:48 Yes. I think so. Back in the days, there was a "cutoff" between people who were good at making money and those who weren't. The cutoff wasn't that big though--a billion was loads. Today, a billion is pocket change for anyone who is good at making money unless they intentionally use it as they earn it, or PvP all the time rather than rat/mission/mine. But the people who suck at making money haven't gotten any better, and so they feel alienated by the gap. A corpmate of mine decided a few days ago he would go get himself in a dreadnought. A few days of ratting and he's already bought his dreadnought and fittings . I see a lot of people complaining on the forums about how they can't make money. It just isn't hard to make isk in game, even if you're a newb. And I don't mean grining out veld, either... ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Whu FlungPoo Read the Dev Blog. This is all being taken care of. This entire thread is a waste of time. All static complexes will be hidden. Their's a 10/10 in system I travel through daily.. The same 5 people are their 16 hours a day. These complexes are dumping 100s of billions of isk on the market every day. Most of what the complexes are dumping are deadspace faction items, not ISK itself, though the overseers effects do represent pure ISK. --23 Member--
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: DarkMatter I doubt it... Even if there was no insurance, I'd would have had no problem fielding a new BS once or twice a week, and I'm one of the people who hated spending time making ISK... I would bet you'd find it harder to make money if insurance was removed. If people had to hoard their money more to buy replacement ships they will have less to spend on faction mods or other bling. As demand for faction/named mods (which I am guessing is a fair portion of your income) decreases the price will drop and you will earn less making that BS that much harder to afford. Hmm, most of my wealth comes from T2 item & mineral redistribution. I never really dealt with faction mods... Don't run missions unless I need standing. And don't rat hunt... I have not played since the frieghter ganking started happening, so I guess it would only take one fully loaded frieghter loss to bankrupt me... But if I could operate my frieghter as normal, 1-2 BS a week would not be a problem without insurance... Building the homestead
TornSoul BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:47:00 - [22] Originally by: Bistot Kid Scrap the whole concept of insurance. Agreed. Things changed (to the worse imo) after insurrance was introduced. BIG Lottery [url
Korizan Oort Cloud Industries	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:49:00 - [23] The longer any game is out means more people will become rich. And there are still a lot of us who think 1 Billion ISK A LOT of money and we spend months or a year getting it. But there are ways to get money faster but lots of us are content to make money doing the things we enjoy and not worry about if it is slower via this method or that. Personally my corp will be mining forever and the money shows up when it shows up. BUT if you want a NERF. REMOVE THE ABILITY TO REPROCESS MODS and AMMO. That would fix your issues and majorly change Eve in one simple action. However it is too extreme in my opinion so I wouldn't worry about that nerf But it is fun to think about if it ever happened. Miners would be needed once again I think
Haks'he Lirky 8th	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:52:00 - [24] Edited by: Haks''he Lirky on 05/06/2007 16:51:35 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xtreem yes, too many people have 2 many big toys and major fleets are too easy to amass and not too much or a worry to lose. insurance should only pay a top of 50% and build costs for all ships needs to x3 capital ships, bar freighter need to have 4x-8x there current build costs, make them truly epic The build cost increase would just trash the mineral market, not deal with the ISK problem. IMO primarily insurance has to be completely removed. If it was removed, this would force people to fly smaller ships--combat wouldn't be nearly as dominated by battleships. It would also drastically decrease the amount of ISK in the game, since the insurance payouts are just flooding the game with ISK. I would like to add that with insurance battleships are almost the cheapest ships to loose, sometimes you can even come out with a small profit if you built them your self. kill insurance and kill the blob? Would it be enough to kill insurance only in -0.6 systems and below? or introduce reduced payoff according to where the ship was lost (sec) and of course it's just silly that you get insurance when concord smacks you around.
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:54:00 - [25] A lot of what people are talking about here don't actually add ISK to the economy, it just moves it around. Things like NPC buy orders (including overseer effects), insurance payouts, bounties, mission rewards add ISK to the economy. At various times, I've seen mention of nerfing one or more of these ISK faucets, but so far it hasn't happened in any really significant way. It's not clear that nerfing the faucets is the right answer either since that can lead to ISK being hoarded by those who are good at farming the remaining faucets, which will cause the economy to stagnate. Definitely nerfing faucets can be part of the solution, but you've got to be careful so that ISK continues to move through the economy. ----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..."
SiJira	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:56:00 - [26] i dont believe there is a problem but insurance can be tweaked a lot ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Corb Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:59:00 - [27] I think the isk problem came from the boosting of 0.0 belt rats. Remember the empire Level 4 Raven missiong runners were making all the isk, and the 0.0 folks raised hell? CCP boosted NPC bounties and BS spawns. When I first started 0.0 life over 1.5 years ago I was amazed at the isk I was making. I do remember what it was like to be broke all the time and to try and find new ways to make isk. I made my money on Lvl 4 Courier missions when the agents were giving out loads of POS compenents. CCP caught wind of it and stopped it, and then stopped items for time rewards, and then stopped items all together, and now just give isk. Not as much fun anymore because I found myself grinding away wondering what the next cool item was going to be. No insurance would solve a lot of problems in game but then you run into the new players having a rough time....not like they already to anyways...to much sp gap in game.
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.06.05 16:59:00 - [28] You could also reduce in-game isk by raising taxes, or adding new taxes. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:10:00 - [29] One possible alteration to the Insurance system. Instead of multiple levels of coverage (what idiot would only cover partial cost on a ship?), just have the insurance system replace the hull itself. A single lump payment that for 12 weeks, if you lose the ship, you have a replacement hull sitting in the hangar where you clone. No money added, you still need to replace the components. This saves the insurance system from flooding the market with ISK in the event a ship ever does actually come in cheap enough that platinum insurance turns a profit. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:10:00 - [30] It is definately becoming a better and better idea to scale insurance down - and perhaps remove it entirely with time. It only hurts the large t1 ships though. People flying t2 ships are already facing a very low repayment on a loss. Those people would only experience an increase in buying power, most likely. Its an idea worth pursuing none the less. As far as mining becoming obsolete, it can't because of the amount of isk floating around. If anything its because of alternative mineral sources. Alloys, mods and such. If mining was the only avenue of mineral creation, the price should more or less follow the inflation. If not for the existance of NPC sold items that can be refined - which tied in with the above statement. The mineral prices are not allowed a free reign - and prohibits the entire market from following the amount of isk flowing into the game. I seriously believe its a significant part of the core of the increasing ability to afford luxury items. Its a complicated matter for sure - especially if you want to make sure any changes does not give more to the haves or hurt the have nots extensively. One option of both increasing an isk sink and encourage use of smaller ships and lower tier modules, could be to increase the production costs, scaling extremely with size/level. Can't quite figure how that would play out though. Even if insurance was kept as it is, based on material cost, it would still hurt if fx. 30% of the ships cost was from the actual _production_ cost. I would rather production of more items from NPCs over to the players (POS elements and fuel fx), which admittedly would remove some isk sinks - and introduce more general ones like above. It would allow for a more real chance of prices to follow the isk influx. Inflation could still exist, but the proliferation of luxury items should take hit from it. Any way of pushing people increasingly back to T1 items, could also give an interesting side effect of moving isk from the relatively limited group of T2 producers to the far more widespread T1 market. Anyways thats 2 cent for you. Shoot it down. :)
Tecam Hund The Buggers	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:12:00 - [31] I think that bounties on rats should be cut back somewhat, and insurance should be adjusted (not removed completely though) until it is at least remotely realistic. CCP is planning to reduce pure ISK income from missions, I believe, by removing bounties and replacing them with better loot and lp rewards. It was in a blog somewhere, but I can't find it now.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:14:00 - [32] I don't think that players are "too rich", I know that the majority of the players I run around with aren't. Most of us (around 20 players) started last October/November, right before Revelations. Of the lot I'm the only one that has successfully aquired more than 300M in cash, not counting ships. None of us have T2 ships, most of us don't have T2 equipment, we are all still flying lowepriced BSs and BCs. We are all high-sec mission runners, miners and fledgling industrialists. Since I've been here I've seen the rewards for missions and belt ratting slashed again and again for High Sec players. I make less ISK now on a per mission basis for level 3s and low level 4s than I made with level 2s in December. The loot drops are virtually non-existant in value so we melt them down to make ammo, Salvage has taken a couple of nerfs in the last two patches, fewer ships in the mission means less bounties, and the mission payouts are lower. Plus most of the newer missions are all "Factional" and give no bounties at all, while still not giving decent loot drops. I read CCP's thoughts on level 5 missions in LowSec, requiring gangs of BBs and capital ships to run, with NO bounties, and wonder exactly who is going to run them. I don't know anyone personally that can afford to. I think the problem with players having too much ISK is all left over from greener times or misperceptions from those living in 0.0 and thinking everyone has it so good. I know I have to kill 100+ (yes over 100) belt rats to equal the bounty payout for ONE in 0.0..... <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Lenaria Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:19:00 - [33] Edited by: Lenaria on 05/06/2007 17:20:19 Originally by: Dark Shikari IMO primarily insurance has to be completely removed. If it was removed, this would force people to fly smaller ships--combat wouldn't be nearly as dominated by battleships. It would also drastically decrease the amount of ISK in the game, since the insurance payouts are just flooding the game with ISK. This is nonsense. Only several months ago T2 BS cost was 3x more expencive than now. Guess what? Every major aliance still fielded T2 BS fleets almost exclusevely... So obviosly insurance removal will not turn anyone from using BS - instead it will make losing penalties bigger (less PvP, especeally for smaller alliances) and promote even more grinding. Btw, looking at mineral prices there is rather deflation than inflation - that means what EVE actually have too little money and NOT too much. P.S. For anyone looking for uber-expencive toys what require insane amount of effort - there are motheships and titans. No point making dreadnouts like titans. ============================================== 1 Titan is ok, 2 kills any fun, 3 make peoples quit eve. No wonder online numbers decline for 3rd month.
Miz Cenuij OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:30:00 - [34] Scrap insurance. "Men are going to die.. and im going to kill them".
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:47:00 - [35] Originally by: Trevedian Edited by: Trevedian on 05/06/2007 15:53:14 Has mining become obsolete since there is sooo much isk floating around? Is it hurting EVE that people are too rich? Should we scrap insurance payouts outside of empire? Do we need better isk sinks? What new and interesting isk sinks are on the horizon? Should something every1 wants be sold only by NPC's? (Boosters) I can remember when EVE was like the wild west, when it hurt bad to lose a ship, but that made fighting even more exciting. The game used to be wide open, now it seems limited by restraints developed to hurt small gang warfare and solo PVP. Cap ships and POS's are tedious after the initial novelty wears off... Suggestions? Comments? i dont know i alwys have to little isk. I just recenlty bought my first carrer, true that before i devoted all my time to pvp or corp/allaince duties i was in. - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.05 17:51:00 - [36] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 05/06/2007 15:54:48 Yes. I think so. Back in the days, there was a "cutoff" between people who were good at making money and those who weren't. The cutoff wasn't that big though--a billion was loads. Today, a billion is pocket change for anyone who is good at making money unless they intentionally use it as they earn it, or PvP all the time rather than rat/mission/mine. But the people who suck at making money haven't gotten any better, and so they feel alienated by the gap. A corpmate of mine decided a few days ago he would go get himself in a dreadnought. A few days of ratting and he's already bought his dreadnought and fittings . imho you exagerate abit with your dread bit= few days of ncping. Maybe if you npc 8h/day it would be 1 week or 10 days ( lets assume oyu earn 200 milions perday).But i assume most poeple cant play more then 15 -20 hours a week, so its more like 1 month. Me personally npcing in very good 0.0 i earned for a carrer in around 1 month maybe a bit more, playing i guess around 10 hours per week in average.Also had to pvp a bit during that time. Doesnt seem so short to me. - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
Xtreem Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:11:00 - [37] also to be honest, older players dont think of insurance alot as they tend to fly t2 ships alot whih you cant insure... down with insurance, massive boost to cap ships, massive increase in price for cap ships (wayyy to easy to get) and i still think my insurance level on ship class is the best idea, promotes smaller gangs 2 at least in ship types, less sniper fleets and alot more close up dog fights
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:20:00 - [38] This is something I have been going on about for years since I saw how common Battleships were becoming so I just have to say a few extra words. I'll first start on other people's comments. Originally by: Trevedian Has mining become obsolete since there is sooo much isk floating around? Yes and no. If you ask me, it all depends on where you are located and if you are far out, how big your alliances is and/or how good your logistics are. Originally by: Trevedian Is it hurting EVE that people are too rich? Oh hell yes. I myself have 7B and I am rather bored. I hate dying if only because I have to go get a new ship, refit it, bring it to where I am, etc. Originally by: Trevedian Should we scrap insurance payouts outside of empire? If you ask me, yeah. I always wondered why someone would insure something that is located in a known lawless area. Originally by: Trevedian I can remember when EVE was like the wild west, when it hurt bad to lose a ship, but that made fighting even more exciting. The game used to be wide open, now it seems limited by restraints developed to hurt small gang warfare and solo PVP. Cap ships and POS's are tedious after the initial novelty wears off... Couldn't agree more. I sold off my 2 capital ships. I always felt they, as well as battleships, should be corporation owned assets that everyone worked for, much the way battleships were described during the beta. I'm feeling nostalgic now so I'll repeat two stories of the early days to give those newer people for a taste of what it was like. During beta, my corporation worked two-three weeks mining arkanor (it sold at 4096 back then) to buy our first cruiser off the NPC market. It was an Augoror and it was much different back then. Anyway, we actually were sharing the thing. Can you believe sharing a low level T1 cruiser? I mean, wow. We ended up doing some other mining and the cruiser got in trouble FIGHTING OTHER CRUISERS! Hard to believe, ain't it? So I rushed out in my Tristan (that took me a good few days to get too) to help out and I was just barely able to save my comrade (back then, a tristan could have 8 drones). It was a real nail biting experience because we put alot of time and work into that cruiser. A day after retail, my corp mates from beta formed another corp. We worked hard to just get Scythes (back then it was a different ship too). Once we got the BPO, it took about two weeks to get enough to build some for ourselves to be able to get more and so on. Eventually we got enough to get the Rupture BPO and built one of those. Now I got use of it from my corp's CEO. Our ONLY Rupture. I was travelling in low sec (it was a much different environment back then) and got jumped by 3 pirate frigates at the gate. I was thinking 'Oh crap'. So I started legging it for the gate. I took out 2 of them before I somehow lost a lock on the 3rd. Ewar was different back then and the 2nd ship got a jam on me before I took him out. Because there was no aggro timer back then, I was able to escape. That was the last real nail biting experience I have had in eve since. I kept thinking during that attack 'Bicc is so going to kill me if I die'.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:21:00 - [39] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xtreem however this would be harsh for new players, perhaps the level of poss insurance lowers per class level so by the time your at BS you can only get a 20% payout, 50% for bc, 75% for cruisers etc to help the new guys But if insurance is removed, the new players wouldn't need bigger ships as quickly because other players would have smaller ships also. I'm against removing insurance. I do like the idea of removing it for 0.0. I'm of two minds for empire space though. I do think that the build requirements should be increased by a small margin per ship size. Like 5% for frigate size, 10% for cruiser size, 20% for battleship size and 30% for capital ship size. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Only new ISK sink I am aware of comes with bringing "Heat" into the game. A module disabled by overheating will only be repairable at a station and paying for the repairs. You can dock at your alliance's outpost and repair for free if your alliance has it set up like that. Originally by: Gong Reprocessing npc-sold items is usually still a loss, and that's how it's supposed to be. So almost all mins come from mining and reprocessing loot/alloys and that's uneffected by how many isk floats arround. I've been feeling lately that the reprocessing part should be harsher and the skill for scrap metal given a higher benefit. It'd make the skill more valuable and also make it so you don't have to give up mining completely. I've known some alliances build entire fleets just from recycled loot. Originally by: Derovius Vaden EVE should: - triple the cost of higher-level clones Eek. My clone already costs 14M. There is only one clone above that. Originally by: Janu Hull One possible alteration to the Insurance system. Instead of multiple levels of coverage (what idiot would only cover partial cost on a ship?), just have the insurance system replace the hull itself. I'd be for lowering the insurance payout. Right now Megathrons are really cheap. You don't get your money back or anything but it is a pretty good deal. Originally by: Tecam Hund I think that bounties on rats should be cut back somewhat, and insurance should be adjusted (not removed completely though) until it is at least remotely realistic. CCP is planning to reduce pure ISK income from missions, I believe, by removing bounties and replacing them with better loot and lp rewards. It was in a blog somewhere, but I can't find it now. Oh hell yes. I remember when cruisers could actually be tough to fight. They should definitely scale it back. I think they listened to all the whiners way back when and introduced all this high bounty stuff. Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby I don't think that players are "too rich", I know that the majority of the players I run around with aren't. Most of us (around 20 players) started last October/November, right before Revelations. Of the lot I'm the only one that has successfully aquired more than 300M in cash, not counting ships. None of us have T2 ships, most of us don't have T2 equipment, we are all still flying lowepriced BSs and BCs. We are all high-sec mission runners, miners and fledgling industrialists. I think the problem with players having too much ISK is all left over from greener times or misperceptions from those living in 0.0 and thinking everyone has it so good. I know I have to kill 100+ (yes over 100) belt rats to equal the bounty payout for ONE in 0.0..... Then you are doing something wrong or your skills aren't there yet. Sometimes I start a new agent I haven't done missions with before and within a week, I start getting really good missions and can start making the real money from just cargo missions. I don't mind doing those if I am mostly afk. I can make 40M a week from those depending on hour many hours a day I spend doing them. For me, it just ends up being too easy and I get bored of it.
Fayn Trak Gallente Myridian Trading Systems	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:21:00 - [40] Quote: imho you exagerate abit with your dread bit= few days of ncping. Not really I knew a guy who used to pull in 4-5 hundred million in a day, it'd be a good day I suppose but he certainly had some lucky charm or some such for getting good loot. Anyway on the op, mining hasn't become obsolete as you still need the minerals, the ammount of people running missions/rat hunting and the refining the loot for minerals has certainly hit the mineral prices (might need to be looked at) certainly mining is out of the equation at the high end isk earning. The faact that there's so much isk floating around is changing eve it's not changing it to my liking but I don't think it's hurting the game overly. Insurance really does need some changing, warfare is so much larger these days that the ammount of isk dumped into the game via insurance has to be huge. If insurance is altered to not pay so much then the isk sinks should be fine(along with the agent adjustments) As was said heat will be a new isk sink though I don't see it being hugely effective it should be interesting to see how having all those pos guns outside alters things, they cost money to replace after all provided there'd be a point in attacking items outside the shield even if you weren't planning on taking out the tower. A herd of cattle A flock of geese A lot of isk remember when sigs were text?
Effei Gloom Minmatar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:21:00 - [41] I don¦t really understand what insurance payout would change, its peanuts anyway. T2 market and lvl4 missions have relocated large ammounts of isk into the wallet of "some" pilots. I think its harder than ever before to get into the ISK renerating industry now. T2 market spreads its profit. LVL4 mission will changed into none ISK gerating missions and lvl5+ will drop datacores and other stuff. So the problem was a problem i would say. - next minnie Outpost bpc me:5 available in 25 days -
Angaro Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:24:00 - [42] Not everyone has too much isk. I know I don't. So unless a tax on capital is introduced the players who don't like or know the best ways to make money (and don't have some T2 bpo's ofc) or simply don't have the playing time to devote a part of it to making isk, will suffer as well and even more so than the "rich" players. Which I hope is not a desired effect. Making high-SP clones more expensive is a pretty lousy idea. There is no direct relationship between character age and wealth. I wouldn't mind more people flying good old T1 frigs and cruisers though. So I propose a montly 5% tax on all assets, liquid or not. Above a certain threshold of course... Let's make everyone poor!
THEGREAT LOBO Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:24:00 - [43] I know lots of people are rich and feel that there is too much isk in the game. but as one of the poor people most of the time i have to disagree. Removing insurance or making it at 50% of what the ship is worth would make pirating a lot harder. tis already hard just to pay for new t2 mods everytime i do something silly :P with out insurance i would have to consider doing something honest for my money
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:28:00 - [44] Hmmm yes - Remove insurance and just have it drop a replacement ship in your hanger of the station you insured at. This would take isk out of the game all together as people pay for insurance. Of course, this means that all you get is one type of insurance, and no more default 40% insurance.
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:33:00 - [45] Originally by: Fayn Trak Quote: imho you exagerate abit with your dread bit= few days of ncping. Not really I knew a guy who used to pull in 4-5 hundred million in a day, it'd be a good day I suppose but he certainly had some lucky charm or some such for getting good loot. I still think you miss one of the point of my post.Maybe he earned 400 milions because he was very lucky npcing with loot all day.ALL DAY. Come on who can play a freaking whole day often?? Also you cant npc all time in 0.0 you got to defend it. - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
Cardice Makar Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:38:00 - [46] I defiantly agree that there is a serious issue with cashflow in the game, but I'm not entirely convinced that removing insurance is the pure solution. The game needs more ISK-sinks, of this I am certain. Payable bills on the character level are a good start to this, and will certainly become easier to implement in Rev2. [Think docking fees in unliked/non-race stations, I suppose]. A potentially better [and more obvious] sink would be to copy the real-world insurance scheme: that being paying a monthly payment to keep your insurance active, remove the expiration date on your insurance, and have a "star-track record" that results in individuals that loose ships more often having to pay higher rates or even suspensions. Also, addition of licenses to use specific types of hardware in empire, transport specific quantities of types of goods, or pass specific check points could be implemented. Also, police services, rescue services, and other such things could be thrown into the mix. I for one agree that there needs to be other things eating your isk... but "removing insurance all together" isn't the proper solution IMO.
Max Hardcase Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:47:00 - [47] Edited by: Max Hardcase on 05/06/2007 18:46:30 Originally by: Janu Hull One possible alteration to the Insurance system. Instead of multiple levels of coverage (what idiot would only cover partial cost on a ship?), just have the insurance system replace the hull itself. A single lump payment that for 12 weeks, if you lose the ship, you have a replacement hull sitting in the hangar where you clone. No money added, you still need to replace the components. This saves the insurance system from flooding the market with ISK in the event a ship ever does actually come in cheap enough that platinum insurance turns a profit. Nice idea, but where does that leave the ship builders ? And ,since they have to get the minerals from somewhere, the miners ?
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.05 18:50:00 - [48] Here are some thoughts I came up with. ISK tends to be the real mover and shaker of EVE and I always felt everything in EVE feeds back on itself. People made alot of good suggestions that I quoted and replied to. One thing that could stand to be included along with the other suggestions is: - Changing ore distribution. If you ask me, it just downright sucks. There is the same ore distribution from low sec stretching out into 0.0 until you get to the very outside regions. What the hell is that all about? There are other factors for mentioning this. While it may seem like this would just add to ISK inflation, I think my point is to make those middle 0.0 regions more self sufficient if the other suggestions were followed. This should also include, but not be limited to, trade goods for towers that are used to claim space. I've been hoping they will allow more than one outpost to be allowed in a system in Revelations 2. And since they are placed at planets, why not start making planets actually do something? You could add an option in the outpost to make an expendature to colonize a planet that could produce trade goods that are used for POS fueling towers. Obviously the colony could also have its own needs much like a tower do but you could get them from other types of planets as you establish other outposts. It'd be a way of making those 0.0 empires more self sufficient. It can't really be argued that the most successful alliances, and the largest, are those in deep 0.0 and know how to handle the logistics of getting all this stuff from empire. But that just makes them completely dependant on Empire space. I can see the big alliances becoming self sufficient with the younger and/or smaller ones still requring trade goods from empire or other 0.0 alliances that may have a surplus. Obviously, this interaction should only occur on SOLID or ICE planets although I suppose a gas planet would be okay depending on the trade good. It would also give planets some kind of value. I think logistics people would appreciate this kind of micromanagement. There would also have to be a change in ice products in terms of isotopes. I personally felt that racial ice based on location is rather stupid. But if it is too much work to change it, why not a POS module that can just convert it for you and have it incorporate a small penalty as part of the conversion? I think something like this would be an important step because then there wouldn't be as big a need for all this really high valued ratting and loot, etc, and it could be scaled back. Fueling those damn towers gets downright expensive and if your supply run from Empire gets taken out, well, that is what will hurt. I always got the impression that it was because of these high fuel costs that they saw the need to increase bounties to such high levels out in 0.0.
Stefx	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:00:00 - [49] -CCP should ***** down on macro miners -Insurance should be void when in war -Insurance should be void when ship is destroyed by Concord
Ozzie Asrail Exploited	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:02:00 - [50] It's fine as it is at the moment. I'm certialy not a rich player but nether am i poor player, I actually only have about 50mil in cash atm although got about 6-7bil in assests. Losing a T2 fitted BS or a hac still hurts like hell, sure I could go into hardcore isk farming mode and pay for a few expensive ships in a few days but a. thats boring and b. i can lose them even quicker than that in hardcore pvp mode :p Stopping insurance, while it might not be a big deal in reality, would be a big mental hold-back for people PvP'ing. Especially newer or more casual players. If you find it a bit boring because you make too much isk then fly more expensive ships. I mean could any but the biggest T2 guys (gives khatred the evil eye) think that flying faction pimped ships everday is boring not risky? -----
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:04:00 - [51] Originally by: Cardice Makar The game needs more ISK-sinks, of this I am certain. Payable bills on the character level are a good start to this, and will certainly become easier to implement in Rev2. [Think docking fees in unliked/non-race stations, I suppose]. There was mention in the beta that battleships would have an upkeep but it never happened. Shame really. Make them only be able to move through systems via jump drives and maybe that would count as an upkeep.
Martin Mckenna D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:04:00 - [52] ive got 8mill nerf people over 100bill :P
THEGREAT LOBO Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:06:00 - [53] Originally by: Martin Mckenna ive got 8mill nerf people over 100bill :P Love it
Cardice Makar Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:11:00 - [54] Originally by: Martin Mckenna ive got 8mill nerf people over 100bill :P Income Tax? Yeah, I remember the 'upkeep' talk. Someone very well expressed the idea of hiring "ship crews" too, allowing Vetran [t2] crews to slightly increase ship efficiency at the cost of other aspects and ISK. Could work. Upkeep isn't a terrible idea, but I'd like to see more in the way of player-based bills. The faculties exist in the game already, so why not put them to use? Also, I'm sure clones could be taxed, and it's easy to implement services which don't give you a property return but still cost large amounts of isk. That creates big holes to drop isk into, in theory. Realism makes far more sense to me, rather than coming up with "fake" ways of taking isk out of circulation. I'd much rather see EvE work in a more realistic sense rather than fake ways of getting isk out of people's pockets.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:14:00 - [55] Originally by: Cardice Makar [ Yeah, I remember the 'upkeep' talk. Someone very well expressed the idea of hiring "ship crews" too, allowing Vetran [t2] crews to slightly increase ship efficiency at the cost of other aspects and ISK. Could work. I've always thought crews would be a GREAT isk sink. I always thought a good system would be that your crew is generic, but every ship has slots for "special officers", sort of like rigs or extra modules. You could have few or no slots for tiny ship classes, and a whole bunch of slots for large ship classes. Each "officer" would have certain ship-boosting attributes (like a rig) but would only be available from NPC vendors. They would also have a daily upkeep cost. The better they are, the more they cost. Fun, no? --------
Vasiliyan Dutch T2 Production	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:20:00 - [56] Some people have a lot of money, most don't. I'd like to see what happens when GTC selling is removed.
Stefx	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:25:00 - [57] -CCP should crrack down on macro miners -There should be no insurance payoff when at war (try to find an insurance company that will insure your car if you're shipping it to Irak for example...) -There should be no insurance payoff when your ship is destroyed by Concord
General Apocalypse Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:28:00 - [58] I can't see to much isk floating around tbh . 500 M is my worst case scenarion and i i didn't had it now i woudn't be in EVE anymore . TBH the ppl that are to rich don't usualy pvp. You won't see a very day pvper whit to many bilions. Also the amount of isk in you wallet depends on the amount of time you spend makeing them (yaaaawn) wich is not very fun , maybe 10/10 plexes are a bit fun due to the chalange and background . The best way to eliminate isk fountains is to obliderate the macro raters that rat all day long in a Raven whit cloack . Also kiling farmers like Vorgon did help EVE a lot. Curently the DEV team is working on giving us the tools to eliminate the 23/7 ratters. After that i don't think the'll be 2 much isk floating around , don't forget that the t2 market took a big nose dive as well so no more isk cascade from that direction. Thank You SkyFlyer
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:33:00 - [59] Originally by: General Apocalypse I can't see to much isk floating around tbh . 500 M is my worst case scenarion and i i didn't had it now i woudn't be in EVE anymore . TBH the ppl that are to rich don't usualy pvp. You won't see a very day pvper whit to many bilions. Also the amount of isk in you wallet depends on the amount of time you spend makeing them (yaaaawn) wich is not very fun , maybe 10/10 plexes are a bit fun due to the chalange and background . The best way to eliminate isk fountains is to obliderate the macro raters that rat all day long in a Raven whit cloack . Also kiling farmers like Vorgon did help EVE a lot. Curently the DEV team is working on giving us the tools to eliminate the 23/7 ratters. After that i don't think the'll be 2 much isk floating around , don't forget that the t2 market took a big nose dive as well so no more isk cascade from that direction. You think 500 million is your WORST CASE SCENARIO?! I don't think I've ever had that much money at once before At last count, I had less than 20 million isk in my account. And I own 1 cruiser. A Celestis, of all things. War is a pricey old game for the lazy --------
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:39:00 - [60] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 05/06/2007 19:41:58 the genie is out of the bottle.. if you NERF ppl's isk income or ppl's isk loss... the rich will only get richer and the poor gets poorer. (well I can see the guys who thinks eve has too much isk IS someone will too much isk..) theres an alternative... sent me 1 billion, =P I would be a happy camper if you do that, double win, you wont feel that theres too much isk anymore..(unless you are like... insanely rich..) and this poor sap dont have to grind isk for afew months... oh, and nerf T2 markets... make invention % of success better (ships are just horrible...).. that way, the gap between the rich and poor will diminish even futher....(yeah yeah, I know only afew bps are worth it.. but hey, still make better money.) edit: yeah... rich ppl will endorse this nerf... =P poor guy like me will violently say no... or will stop pvp, market pvp and helping newbies all together....yes I still give away Frigs and fittings to newbies to the game... -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
Hathi Task Force Zener	Posted - 2007.06.05 19:56:00 - [61] Before everyone decides to nerf isk for all just remember the one unique feature of EVE is the skill system. Not all old players are rich, not all players have time to make huge piles of isk. Insurance is needed for the poorer & the noobs. Losing a frigate early on hurts, much the same as a carrier later in the game. Clones already too expensive at the higher levels. And they're about the only thing everyone has to buy unless you want to lose skills. It's an isk balance that people seem to want (need?). Why?
Ralara Caldari Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:06:00 - [62] Edited by: Ralara on 05/06/2007 20:05:54 I think there is far too much isk in game. These days unless I have 200-300m isk just "spare", I feel naked, and im only 18 months into playing. Hell there's been a time when I could afford 2 or 3 totally deadspace / faction fitted dreads / carriers, jeebus, i could half afford a mothership, and that was from doing LEVEL 4 MISSIONS for TWO MONTHS I was flying around in a standard raven worth 2 billion isk just because I could I mean, even now, my crow, is worth... crow...... 20m MWD....... 75m Warp Dis.. 180m Dom Over D 300m (x3) Rigs...... 100m Other..... 30m Total..... 705m I mean, that's more or less standard for me... seriously, the fact that I don't blink if I lose it is... scary. Cos I can make it back in 2 or 3 days and that's if I can't buy it all outright. I've got 20 tech 2 fitted interceptors "ready to go", 3 fully tech 2 fitted ratting ravens, about 30 or 40 tech 2 frigates of various kinds all kitted out... I'm not trying to brag, I'm saying something has gone wrong somewhere! there needs to be far more isk sinks in the game, but also I think they need to be "top heavy" - making poor players pay the same as rich players wont really help in many ways.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:22:00 - [63] Originally by: Ralara Edited by: Ralara on 05/06/2007 20:05:54 I think there is far too much isk in game. These days unless I have 200-300m isk just "spare", I feel naked, and im only 18 months into playing. Hell there's been a time when I could afford 2 or 3 totally deadspace / faction fitted dreads / carriers, jeebus, i could half afford a mothership, and that was from doing LEVEL 4 MISSIONS for TWO MONTHS I was flying around in a standard raven worth 2 billion isk just because I could I mean, even now, my crow, is worth... crow...... 20m MWD....... 75m Warp Dis.. 180m Dom Over D 300m (x3) Rigs...... 100m Other..... 30m Total..... 705m I mean, that's more or less standard for me... seriously, the fact that I don't blink if I lose it is... scary. Cos I can make it back in 2 or 3 days and that's if I can't buy it all outright. I've got 20 tech 2 fitted interceptors "ready to go", 3 fully tech 2 fitted ratting ravens, about 30 or 40 tech 2 frigates of various kinds all kitted out... I'm not trying to brag, I'm saying something has gone wrong somewhere! there needs to be far more isk sinks in the game, but also I think they need to be "top heavy" - making poor players pay the same as rich players wont really help in many ways. You have to take into consideration how much time you put into the game as well. You might very well be playing Eve 8 hours a day instead of having a job. Then you get loads of isk. The game should be balanced for the people who cant spend their entire lifes in the game in my opinion. And I believe it is. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:32:00 - [64] Personally I think this ISK inflation would solve alot of other non-bug related things that people complain about. For most of the people out there who don't have that much ISK, I would have to say the majority of them live in Empire whereas the really rich typically live in 0.0 (although I do know someone richer than me who only ever runs missions for ISK and I have 7B). You solve this inflation and you see less people selling GTCs for huge amounts of ISK. I knew a guy who ran 8 accounts and paid for them all via GTCs and got those GTCs by having nearly all his accounts doing his grinding for ISK. I'm not saying my suggestions earlier were perfect or ideal but you also get to see more people trying to establish themselves in 0.0. Refueling all those damn towers is a damn ISK sink if you aren't bringing in a good amount of ISK. It also increases the value of battleships and also promoting less blob warfare at the drop of a hat. You'd get to see more frigates and cruisers running around for the average day to day things instead of just taking a top end battleship just because battleships become more risky to lose. Having been around for this long and been through all the changes, I'm not seeing much of a downside here except EVE getting as exciting as it used to be. I stopped being afraid of losing a ship and my pod a very long time ago.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:34:00 - [65] Originally by: Max Hardcase Edited by: Max Hardcase on 05/06/2007 18:46:30 Originally by: Janu Hull One possible alteration to the Insurance system. Instead of multiple levels of coverage (what idiot would only cover partial cost on a ship?), just have the insurance system replace the hull itself. A single lump payment that for 12 weeks, if you lose the ship, you have a replacement hull sitting in the hangar where you clone. No money added, you still need to replace the components. This saves the insurance system from flooding the market with ISK in the event a ship ever does actually come in cheap enough that platinum insurance turns a profit. Nice idea, but where does that leave the ship builders ? And ,since they have to get the minerals from somewhere, the miners ? Miners still make their money selling to component farmers, but you do have a point about ship builders... I don't know the answer to that. This is my sig, there are many others just like it. With me, my sig is worthless. Without (or with even) my sig, I am worthless...
Red Gabba Use Of Weapons	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:34:00 - [66] Removing insurance would be silly, improving it would be sensible. insurance should be risk assessed based on, the amount of ships you lose (each claim for insurance increases the amount next time), how many wardecs are levelled at your corp/alliance, Time spent outside of concord control. Insurance needs a overhaul imo, and it could become a good ISK sink and far more workable.
Baccala	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:36:00 - [67] I've been on 4+ years... I live in an area and have every asset available to me to make more money than I can spend, but I don't have the time... so I'm not rich. It comes down to how much work you put into it. Now that hard Eve workers are getting rich, what's the problem? Its far better than being rich just because you got lucky in a lottery. Do we need isk sinks? NO ... a rich Eve is better Eve.
Plave Okice Gallente Combat Systems	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:55:00 - [68] I've seen 19 billion ISK of my own in my personal wallet, currently and generally it hovers around 10 billion. However I'm fully aware that what I have is very, very little compared to the many players I see throwing billions and indeed tens of billions around on a daily basis, the gap between them and new players widens all the time and once you have that kind of cash you're never going to lose it. I've made a billion in 2 weeks in 0.0 ratting just a couple of hours a day and only looting choice items, the amount that hardcore ratters make must be obsecene. NPC bounties are way too high, ISK earned from missions, lp offers etc are way too high but how can we change it now? Nerfing these things will just make that gap wider and wider.
General Apocalypse Amarr Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:58:00 - [69] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: General Apocalypse I can't see to much isk floating around tbh . 500 M is my worst case scenarion and i i didn't had it now i woudn't be in EVE anymore . TBH the ppl that are to rich don't usualy pvp. You won't see a very day pvper whit to many bilions. Also the amount of isk in you wallet depends on the amount of time you spend makeing them (yaaaawn) wich is not very fun , maybe 10/10 plexes are a bit fun due to the chalange and background . The best way to eliminate isk fountains is to obliderate the macro raters that rat all day long in a Raven whit cloack . Also kiling farmers like Vorgon did help EVE a lot. Curently the DEV team is working on giving us the tools to eliminate the 23/7 ratters. After that i don't think the'll be 2 much isk floating around , don't forget that the t2 market took a big nose dive as well so no more isk cascade from that direction. You think 500 million is your WORST CASE SCENARIO?! I don't think I've ever had that much money at once before At last count, I had less than 20 million isk in my account. And I own 1 cruiser. A Celestis, of all things. War is a pricey old game for the lazy Well i can't pay whit $ for EVE so that reserve was spent to get me timecodes untill december. It was a hard choice but summer vacantion and finals means less EVE for me long skills and GTC saved me fro quiting EVE. Thank You SkyFlyer
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:58:00 - [70] Well certainly the debacle that was the original T2 lottery created some people who money is nothing to, and then there was the bugges complex spawns... but that dmg really cannot be undone.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 20:59:00 - [71] Personally I don't think there is too much ISK out there. If you go through any pirate/pvp phase your wallet can shrink very fast. Insurance can be an ISK sink as well if you never have to use it. "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:01:00 - [72] Originally by: Plave Okice I've seen 19 billion ISK of my own in my personal wallet, currently and generally it hovers around 10 billion. However I'm fully aware that what I have is very, very little compared to the many players I see throwing billions and indeed tens of billions around on a daily basis, the gap between them and new players widens all the time and once you have that kind of cash you're never going to lose it. I've made a billion in 2 weeks in 0.0 ratting just a couple of hours a day and only looting choice items, the amount that hardcore ratters make must be obsecene. NPC bounties are way too high, ISK earned from missions, lp offers etc are way too high but how can we change it now? Nerfing these things will just make that gap wider and wider. If you don't mind me asking, where and what do you rat? Because thinking about it, I make maybe 20 million isk an hour, including loot excluding salvage, on an average day ratting guristas. At 2 hours a day 7 days a week, that'd be 280 million a week, so only half a billion in two weeks- half what you earn. I wonder what the disparity really is between different ratting regions? --------
Chr0nosX	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:02:00 - [73] It's mostly the PvPers which are poorer and the Mission runners/industry people which have more ISK. I would remove insurance if it was caused just by NPCs. I PvP and a billion is alot to me but I enjoy pvp and thats why I play the game, to have fun and enjoy myself.
stoats The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:05:00 - [74] They already had a great isk sink and way of removing ships/modules from the economy. Then alliance p got nerfed. Great job guys.
Plave Okice Gallente Combat Systems	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Patch86 If you don't mind me asking, where and what do you rat? Because thinking about it, I make maybe 20 million isk an hour, including loot excluding salvage, on an average day ratting guristas. At 2 hours a day 7 days a week, that'd be 280 million a week, so only half a billion in two weeks- half what you earn. I wonder what the disparity really is between different ratting regions? Ratting in a -.08 Angel system with 38 belts. Usually one Domination spawn a day, I lived there 2 weeks (in that system not 0.0), the amount of cash people must make ratting in systems like for months or years is staggering when you think about it, hence spending 12 billion ISK on an Invul field or 8 billion ISK on a cap recharger when buying officer mods.
WhiskeyDP The Druids Green Robe Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:07:00 - [76] yes imo there is way too much isk ingame and have been so more or less since lvl 4 missions came. remove all insurance's would be one way. one other thing that i fond is strange is that while making isk have gotten easier stuff on market is still the same cost(t1 bpo's is one example. why not increase the cost on them with like 10x) ================== === eve is not all about isk, its about enjoying the game. lots of iskies is not the same as enjoying the game
Toria Nynys Minmatar	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:11:00 - [77] There are two things in-game which make you more powerful. One is ISK, the other is SP. Figure out some way to trade ISK for SP, and there you go. An ISK sink everyone can get behind.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:13:00 - [78] TAX NPC CORPS - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Plave Okice Gallente Combat Systems	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:15:00 - [79] Originally by: Toria Nynys There are two things in-game which make you more powerful. One is ISK, the other is SP. Figure out some way to trade ISK for SP, and there you go. An ISK sink everyone can get behind. Not totally true, anyone can join the game, buy a whole pile of GTC's, sell for billions of ISK, buy a 30 mill sp char and a buy a Rattlesnake. They'll still get popped when those triple civilian shield boosters can't keep up with the damage though (I've even seen killmails with civilian shield boosters on a dread). ISK helps, sp helps more, but knowledge is power.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:35:00 - [80] Mining doesn't generate isk. Ratting does. The bounties on the rats are FAR too high. Why are there bounties on 0.0 rats anyway? It is lawless area! Remove the bounties completely and instead introduce items which needs to be sold on the market like the alloys in the drone regions. Too many people ratting -> prices will drop and so the market is self regulating! In the other regions there is no such mechanism at all. ENDLESS NEW ISK! That is very bad. Also insurace needs to be cut down drastically - at least for the larger ships so that noobs might not be that badly hit. Furthermore the insurance payout for concorded ships must be completely removed! That is complete nonsense! And Eve needs lots of more isk sinks. Lots of more status symbols which are just expensive and shiny but otherwise not useful. Items to show that you are very rich but which don't upset the game balance. Maybe walking in station can help here And people must become aware that making tons of isk does not always mean that there are tons of new isk in the game. If you build stuff and sell it on the player market or if you trade on the player market you do not generate new isk.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:54:00 - [81] Isk? what is that? ooh yeah, that stuff thats in my wallet! I thought that was snow, cuz it seems to melt away as fast as i get it hahahahahahaa Yes i like to burn my isk, i buy expensive toys and stuff, i mean thats what it's there for for me, i buy toys to entertain myself Atm i have aprox 25 mill spread out of 2 chars CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.05 21:58:00 - [82] Originally by: Hathi Insurance is needed for the poorer & the noobs. Losing a frigate early on hurts, much the same as a carrier later in the game. Thats why I suggested an increase in actual production cost, increasing over ship size and tech levels. Lets say, and numbers are purely for example, that frigates production cost 1% of CCPs calculated mineral cost for each ship. 5% for cruisers, 10% for battecruisers, 15% for battleships, 25% for capitals. Tech 2 costs being quite a bit higher than their t1 counter parts. Same for modules. Again, numbers are drawn out of my ass. It could be explained with using established methods, mass production benefits, complicated procedures - I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. :) As that would be isk not coming back from insurance, it would mean that you have a relatively better turnaround on your isk, the lower you go in ship size and tech level. it won't hurt the new players much as they will still have insurance available and as they usually fly the small size t1 ships. It would make production a lot bigger isk sink than the small one I reckon it is now. It would not be an end all-be all solution, of course - and I can't quite agree with myself if it really would change ship picking behaviour. But I like the idea. :) (And it would open up an opportunity for industrial chars to specialise further with potential new skills?) Would like to hear if anyone can find side effects of this that might not be so desirable?
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:04:00 - [83] 2 year ago i flew T1 or assault frigs. A bs was expensive, i even insured my taranis. Now i dont insure any ship i have, i just pimp em more. Stabber 5 mil, fitting 30 mil+ Dominix 50 mil, 3 pg rig 120 mil, faction smartbombs, dim nos another 100 mil. Including rest of fit thats a 300 mil, 25 mil payout bs. People adapt to there wallet. The boom is better and the isk wastage faaar bigger. Nothing wrong _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
milinkoee Bastage Incorporated	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:04:00 - [84] Originally by: Corb I think the isk problem came from the boosting of 0.0 belt rats. Remember the empire Level 4 Raven missiong runners were making all the isk, and the 0.0 folks raised hell? CCP boosted NPC bounties and BS spawns. Totally agree. They should have nerfed the level 4s instead of boosting the belt rats in order to get parity. Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!!
Lord Frost Minmatar The Crystal Method	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:09:00 - [85] Eve is an economy. It started when the first person flew into this new universe. Its up to the people to civilize it and make it profitable. Eve wasn't rich before, and to think that it can get too rich is absurd. ISK drives everything here, if you want isk sinks all you are really asking for is to slow down the development of the Eve universe. What is done is done... you can't fix one thing and leave out another. If you reduce bounties, you're only affecting the ratters and missioners. Take out insurance and you screw over the pvpers. All while the t2 producers are still making a killing. Lots of isk is a good thing for Eve.
Rhea Tard	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:13:00 - [86] Insurance Stuff In empire insurance works 100% as now, usual payouts. In Lowsec insurance only pays back 50% of the expected amount. In 0.0 insurance is non existant. Wait for the NPC delivery service, should help suck isk down the sink. Introduce smart complexes/spawns that KNOW their being chained, and let them cutoff for a few hours till the party breaks up, stops so many faction gear hunters reaping easy rewards. Get more high reward agents into lowsec. Make a corp bank or just add to the corp wallet features, that works pretty much like the normal corp wallet, that sucks in the % income from npc rewards etc, allow corp members to pay a set fee per week towards the corp "bank" and also allow whatever % of the total in that bank to be paid out to all of the bank donators in the corp per week (a sort of % interest payout), this way if corp members donate to their corp they get rewards for doing very little, and it wouldnt matter how they earned their own fee as long as they all benefit from it in the end.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:13:00 - [87] Originally by: Lord Frost Eve is an economy. It started when the first person flew into this new universe. Its up to the people to civilize it and make it profitable. Eve wasn't rich before, and to think that it can get too rich is absurd. ISK drives everything here, if you want isk sinks all you are really asking for is to slow down the development of the Eve universe. What is done is done... you can't fix one thing and leave out another. If you reduce bounties, you're only affecting the ratters and missioners. Take out insurance and you screw over the pvpers. All while the t2 producers are still making a killing. Lots of isk is a good thing for Eve. T2 produces don't create ISK, they only redistribute it. There is a big difference. Creating more ISK causes inflation. --23 Member--
Cpt Fina Insult to Injury	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:21:00 - [88] Tax (old) players in NPCcorps ...and lower the awards from hisec missionrunning but that's another matter.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:23:00 - [89] Originally by: milinkoee Originally by: Corb I think the isk problem came from the boosting of 0.0 belt rats. Remember the empire Level 4 Raven missiong runners were making all the isk, and the 0.0 folks raised hell? CCP boosted NPC bounties and BS spawns. Totally agree. They should have nerfed the level 4s instead of boosting the belt rats in order to get parity. They HAVE nerfed level 4s. 1) 7 months ago I was getting better loot drops from level 2s than I get now from level 4s. At least I haven't got a Civilian Shield Booster from a battleship wreck since the last patch 2) Most newer level 4s are factional: No bounties. 3) Most level 4s have been re-written for "Need for Speed". Fewer ships have resulted in even less loot and less bounties. 4) Salvage has even taken a hit 2 patches ago, I get more salvage from running a 1/10 complex in HighSec than I do running a level 4. 5) ISK reward for completing the missions have decreased or held even while the rest of the rewards have dropped. Newer missions give less ISK for completion. Most of the level 4s have got to the point I have been running level 3s in my BCs because there is less of a chance of losing the ship, I can do more in my limited time (2-3 nights a week, 2 hours a night) and the financial rewards aren't much worse for the time put in. I get less loyalty points, but that is not pure cash. Even then a 1/10 or 2/10 complex will net as much ISK in the same amount of time as level 2s do, and over 2x the salvage of a level 3. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Alekseyev Karrde The Royal Guard	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:30:00 - [90] Just make insurence Smart. Have the different banking and insurence npc corps insure instead of one global insurence company. Then have your standing drop everytime an insurence contract ends in a pay out, with pay out being standings based. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -Alekseyev Karrde Ambassador, Fleet Commander =The Royal Guard= www.rgrocks.com/"=TRG=Public" EVE chat channel Now Recru
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:35:00 - [91] Originally by: Vasiliyan Some people have a lot of money, most don't. I'd like to see what happens when GTC selling is removed. I've never had huge gobbets of cash. I suppose my 'assets' value is gradually creeping up (I have a fair few spare ships) but I'm not convinced I'll ever be 'rich'. shrug. I think that quashing GTC selling will have an impact upon the whole thing.
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:44:00 - [92] I've supported scrapping insurance for a long time. It hurts the risk vs reward aspect, especially now that invention has brought T2 down and tier 2 BC's outperform HACs. So yah let's be done with it. ---
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:44:00 - [93] I've supported scrapping insurance for a long time. It hurts the risk vs reward aspect, especially now that invention has brought T2 down and tier 2 BC's outperform HACs. So yah let's be done with it. ---
Kur'Dekaija Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.06.05 22:59:00 - [94] Ive been thinking of this idea for a while as a isk sink. TAX the m3 that you got in your hanger. It could be a weekly thing, average m2 of your hangers this week will = ??? isk, should be different by systems, all depends on how much m3 is in that station. The more total m3 their is from all players in a certain station = higher TAX for everyone. This should also be implemented on corp lvl. The more stuff the corp has the more it cost to rent. just an unfinnish idea :)
The Anointed Caldari KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:08:00 - [95] My ideas for getting rid of isk from eve; 1; Re-balancing the rewards from missions (apparently already being done) 2; Remove insurance outside of empire 3; Increase POS Running costs (that will have a knock on effect to controlling space) 4; Player owned stations should cost isk to operate, all those guys wouldnt work for free. 5; When T3 comes out, there should be a certain % of components that can only be bought from npc's. 6; Give all your iskies to me! (No really, im serious)
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:29:00 - [96] Originally by: Xtreem Edited by: Xtreem on 05/06/2007 15:56:24 yes, too many people have 2 many big toys and major fleets are too easy to amass and not too much or a worry to lose. insurance should only pay a top of 50% and build costs for all ships needs to x3 capital ships, bar freighter need to have 4x-8x there current build costs, make them truly epic, i would prefer all capitals o get a massive buff in regards to defence and 8x the cost, excellent items, but alot more rare than they are now /edit/ yes i pvp alot, yes i make ok money, yes i have full carrier and dread skills and still want the above to happen. Your "well thougth" idea will give an huge advantage to who already has the big toys, leaving the other people in the dust. Return to the developement board and try something different.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:31:00 - [97] Originally by: The Anointed 4; Player owned stations should cost isk to operate, all those guys wouldnt work for free. Just so you know... It takes a little over 1 billion ISK to fly a large station in HighSec, and around 210M a month to keep it operational. That isn't counting the 5.0+ standings you have to have with the faction that owns the space, which is quite a grind... It isn't exactly "free" to have a POS in HighSec <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
MehTheTrader University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:33:00 - [98] Edited by: MehTheTrader on 05/06/2007 23:33:15 All these isk problems stem from alts... However there is one problem, the titan. Way too cheap, should at least be 500 bill. Mothership should not be in this game.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:43:00 - [99] Originally by: Dark Shikari But if insurance is removed, the new players wouldn't need bigger ships as quickly because other players would have smaller ships also. Little problem here: t2 ships. For those insurance is pretty pointless anyway. IMO the easier replacement of t1 ships due to insurance is a major balance factor of them vs t2 ships. No isurance would only penalize people who fly t1 stuff compared to t2 pilots. And I say that as someone who always flys t2 unless he cannot help it.
Kehmor Caldari The Movement	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:54:00 - [100] A fairly lame option would be remove all cap booster 800 BPs and sell them at all npc stations... The Movement is recruiting!
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:55:00 - [101] Originally by: Trevedian Suggestions? Comments? Quite apart from allways seeing old, broke PvPers in this game - there's inflation and it's directly caused by CCP. No more need be said. //Maya
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:56:00 - [102] At the moment, it would appear, that many players are experiencing seeming success, more and more people have greater quantity of ISK, and are able to buy more for less ISK, at the same time we have to take into account the following, more and more players are also experiencing less access to ISK sources. This can be seen from: Invention - created a greater degree of competition, while at the same time decreased the amounts of profits for all those who are participating. Yes, there are 100 or so hyper-rich players in game, and I mean those who have 200 Bill+ assets gained through "old" T2 lottery, but they are OK even now, while the ones who are trying to compete with them, although reaping some benefits, are also limited by their access to ISK production due to the competition from the same exact players and the "old-school" T2 producers. Especially, as DS pointed out, because they are NOT creating ISK out of nothing, but rather re-distributing the already exiting stock. Datacore sellout - will create even greater appearance of prosperity, while limiting the access to the actual gain of it. T2 Lottery - the final stage of it has upped the number of T2 SHIP BPOs from 48 Each Unit/I am referring to the (popular) HAC/Command ONLY to 108 Each Unit. (If someone has hard numbers, please let me know, I am not certain if it is increased by 60 or to 60, but from what I gathered so far is by 60. If I am not correct on this matter, then the effects of this will have to be re-evaluated). New Regions - have created an invariable boom in T1 and T2 production; the prices of the High End minerals have literally collapsed overnight. While giving an average player a seemingly greater value for the ISK, they have in return, curbed the access for more ISK a bit further. Manufacturing Sector: Although you see items are dropping like rocks at this time; T1 selling at ridiculously low prices, T2 (high demand) units of all kind are selling for less and less - due to invention. We have to remember the following: responsible producers are currently producing from the "old" stock, if anything, they had to buy the cheaper high-end minerals; but T2 Advanced materials, and components were already stocked up to produce at least 6 -12 months worth of items (again I am talking about people who looked ahead of the curve). Until the "old stock" is depleted, which we are pretty close to it - again, a general estimate, from my watching the markets in a couple regions closely, and I know about 6 established T2 producers, who were able to stave off the Invention and current T2 Component increase threats by having had about 12 months reserve of the materials. My guess in just a few short months we will notice some signifiable changes in general economy and market trends. As such, this means we have to wait about 3-5 months more before we can really say with any certainty that the economy is heating up, too much ISK is accumulated and at the same time the demand did not increase, and starting stages of the hyper-inflation, that usually begins with the general deflation. During deflation, while we can buy more with the same amount of money, we also also have less access to money through other means. ( I know I am being pretty basic here). Gist of it being: even greater amounts of ISK will accumulate in a fewer hands, and general public, although being able to buy more for the ISK they already have, will have less access to ISK due the competition in the various sectors and the population growth. Deflation is just a bad as the inflation, most of us know that. It gives an appearance of prosperity, while at the same time paving a slippery-slope road to hyper-inflation. I think EVE has been slipping into deflation for about a year now, give or take a few months. [Sorry Long Post] [Cont/Finished in the next post. Did not anticipate to type so much]
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.05 23:57:00 - [103] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 06/06/2007 00:01:34 [Cont. from above] [Again, sorry for the long post, but EVE economy is something I have become very interested in, in the last 6 months or so.] So, yea, EVE players are richer than they have ever been before, currently they can buy more for the ISK they have, but slowly and surely we are heading into more and more restricted environment when it comes to acquiring said ISK. Which has a potential to eventually turn the economic growth into recession. I do not think for a second that the situation is bad at this time, if it can be kept in balance. It is always better to have a few hyper-rich players, than have a large majority with overpriced ISK that will lead to inflation and eventual economic downturn. Finally, I do think that EVE could use more ISK sinks. Anything that takes ISK out of EVE is great! PVP is Great! Empire Ganks are OK! (No it does not mean I want to be suicide ganked when I carry something uber-expensive in my hold, but I would not moan about it either, at least not in public. I will just kick my own ass in private if it ever happens to me again.) Insurance cut? Ok, fine, specifically for big ships, as many have suggested, anything BC and up should have its insurance slashed. I have lobbied for the "player housing" - to be mundane - that would heavily rely on Agent System to skim large quantities of ISK from the player transactions. You can read more about it here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=280994 Extra Tax: Jita? Huge Hub, why not tax it? Let the taxes increase exponentially as the volume of items increases. This needs to be tweaked, but will work wonders, will create roaming hubs, will distribute the one huge hub into a few smaller hubs, should have beneficial effects on the intro-region markets. Factional Warfare: come on, yea it will kill allot of ships! You want a radical idea? Well here goes, allow corporations and players to "buy-in" into the Empire stations. Have them compete with NPCs directly. To the point where, perhaps, docking rights will not be restricted, but services and such can be/by price only. Hell, allow players to build permanent outposts in Empire, increase the empire outpost price to 50-60 billion ISK. No sovereignty. No Docking restrictions. Ability to restrict service/as far as price goes only. Any Alliance worth its salt will be more than happy to put their name on an empire station, even if it is an ISK sink and even if it will not bring returns for years to come - it is an ultimate "show off" of ones ability. Anyway, more really grand ISK sinks the better, more small, and medium ISK sinks, better, more ISK sinks = better all around in the long run.
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:01:00 - [104] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: DarkMatter I doubt it... Even if there was no insurance, I'd would have had no problem fielding a new BS once or twice a week, and I'm one of the people who hated spending time making ISK... I would bet you'd find it harder to make money if insurance was removed. If people had to hoard their money more to buy replacement ships they will have less to spend on faction mods or other bling. As demand for faction/named mods (which I am guessing is a fair portion of your income) decreases the price will drop and you will earn less making that BS that much harder to afford. I am sorry but i think your reasoning while sound based on a very flawed platform. The faction mods (At least the good ones) arent bling. They are (if you can afford them) necessary pieces of survival. At the moment you dont need the super high end stuff to compete. This would change significantly if what you suggest is implimented, Example: The myrmidion using tech two reppers and an armor pump rig (assuming level 4 BC) puts out about 450 per repper. The faction reppers do that BASE. Unmodded. Imagine that kind of repping power attached to said ship. (i know some already have it) The fact is the greater the survivability and the less likely to be destroyed it is the more likely its going to get bought up. Faction items would skyrocket even further because they would become be something a player could not live without. Without insurance you would take every measure to insure your survival. (at least i would) That means equipping the best equipment you can get your hands on: Therefore these mods would move from luxury to necessity. Demand would skyrocket on a very limited supply. Faction mods would be able to buy you dreads or carriers. A few could finance a mothership even on less isk being in game. This would make things worse imo. Honestly things arent that bad. I wish there were players who were able to help the new ones get adjusted to the game landscape though. Because unless you are geared to MMO's already and have at the least a working knowledge of economics you are going to have some real troubles.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:02:00 - [105] "Extra Tax: Jita? Huge Hub, why not tax it?" Becaus getting the traders to quit again isn't smart. Because nt touching the factors which created the hub (and they are VERY VERY strong) means that at best, two or three systems will pick up the slack, although a lot of fittings will mean flying arround like a loon trying to find stuff which is going direct to the big alliances,... Not to mention the griefing potentials if you're using pure order volume. This has been covered before in detail. It's one of thw worst ideas ever posted in this forum. Seriously. You need to start tearing down the boundaries to spreading the market, not trashing it again. //Maya
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:07:00 - [106] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 06/06/2007 00:06:22 Originally by: Maya Rkell "Extra Tax: Jita? Huge Hub, why not tax it?" Becaus getting the traders to quit again isn't smart. Because nt touching the factors which created the hub (and they are VERY VERY strong) means that at best, two or three systems will pick up the slack, although a lot of fittings will mean flying arround like a loon trying to find stuff which is going direct to the big alliances,... Not to mention the griefing potentials if you're using pure order volume. This has been covered before in detail. It's one of thw worst ideas ever posted in this forum. Seriously. You need to start tearing down the boundaries to spreading the market, not trashing it again. I would agree with you - if we were talking about an actual economy, greater transparency is better. However, if you propose to "tear down" the boundaries between spreading markets, you will have to allow an increase in transportation - Interbus. Since CCP is not in a hurry to do so, the artificial curb to the market and decrease of GREAT amounts of ISK in the process is preferred in the short term, till such time comes where it can be repealed.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:10:00 - [107] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/06/2007 00:10:01 Jinx, such a change would be tempory as a tax rise, and the majority of players who'd quit over it wouldn't come back. Quite simply, they are the people who CCP needs to spread the market away from the current hubs. There's a lot which can be done (see the recent dedicated thread on this..) without slash and burn methods like taxing hubs, which plain discourages the use of the market (and since auctions are barely useful, trade beyond personal contacts at all). Also, I'm far from convinced that a "great" amount of ISK needs to be lost. See broke people in Eve all the time, many of them with high SP characters... //Maya
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:16:00 - [108] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/06/2007 00:10:01 Jinx, such a change would be tempory as a tax rise, and the majority of players who'd quit over it wouldn't come back. Quite simply, they are the people who CCP needs to spread the market away from the current hubs. There's a lot which can be done (see the recent dedicated thread on this..) without slash and burn methods like taxing hubs, which plain discourages the use of the market (and since auctions are barely useful, trade beyond personal contacts at all). Also, I'm far from convinced that a "great" amount of ISK needs to be lost. See broke people in Eve all the time, many of them with high SP characters... As I said, the whole Taxing Hubs/Jita issue needs to be tweaked. It is doable, and I think, as I have clarified, will be considered a temporary fix, until such time that this measure needs to be repealed. But, point me to the dedicated thread about the Isk Sinks/Faucets. I know that a large discussion about this stuff comes up on a regular basis about every 7 months or so for years now.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:19:00 - [109] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/06/2007 00:18:48 And as I've said, it will do a lot of damage to an allready badly damaged area of Eve, and leaving it in place for 6+ months will just damage the spread of goods avaliable, without spreading the market beyond the current hubs and maybe the odd system or two directly next to one of the current major hubs. So it won't even work, and it's counterproductive in the longer term! And it's specifically about taxting Jita: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=530938 //Maya
Drykor Minmatar Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:22:00 - [110] This is probably just a crazy idea and won't likely ever be implemented in Eve, but maybe you could make the economy truely like real life. Eve is already a bit on the way with the player controlled market, but there are still many ways isk is coming into the game out of nowhere. So if you remove that, there would be no ways to create isk out of nothing, there's a fixed amount of isk to start with. Then for example a missionrunner would only get a reward if the agent's corporation had money remaining, they would also do their own kind of trading/production and might be government funded or something, so they wouldn't run out that easily, but it would be possible. Also, the pirate factions like Angels would have to produce or buy their ships, they could make money by killing Empire transports but again, this wouldn't be an infinite source for them. And for example, make insurance profitable for the insurance companies, so this is not a complete removal of that system, but the insurance companies shouldn't be handing out isk like they do now, in real life they would be bankrupt in a week. Let's compare real life again there, you normally insure things because you don't want to pay the whole sum at once when you lose it, but generally speaking, people are paying more than they are getting. So it would be a delicate choice whether to insure your ship or not. Then you also need to think of ways to let the isk from players flow back to the empires, such as docking rights based on wealth, income tax, whatever. These things don't apply to 0.0 but bounties for npc's there would be completely removed, this is lawless space after all (obviously this has to be compensated with something or I would be out of cash soon) Getting extremely wealthy like some people now would be alot harder with this system, the money has to come from somewhere, obviously. It would also stimulate production and mining inside a corp, there's no reason you always have to use isk for trading. This would be a huge project because you have to simulate a world economy, and I don't think it will be implemented in any game anytime soon, but it would be great to have a REAL lifelike economy. But there are still so many other things that are too complex to work out at the moment I think. (For simpleness let's assume that asteroid belts are an infinite source in a huge galaxy, and this is basically the only stuff that is really generated.)
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:28:00 - [111] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/06/2007 00:28:27 Drykor, It's been tried before. Mostly on MU's rather than anything graphical, but you can directly compare and draw conclusions from the MU's. (I think Dr. Bartle did a paper on it, but I can't find the link right now) Quite simply, a fixed economy is quite hard to control, and you have problems with scarcity and hording, as well as issues such as characters quitting and returning. It is far simpler to control the faucets and drains from the economy. Also, bear in mind that real-world economies certainly are not fixed-cash, they haven't been tied to actual reserves for a long time now. (And, from my experience, fixed-cash economies plain ain't that much fun - if I want to be taxed to death from a thousand papercuts... oh, that happens IRL...) //Maya
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:31:00 - [112] When was the last blog by Oveur about the state of EVE economy? If I am not wrong, it has been at least a year, maybe more? Someone has a linkage to it? Also, as far a making EVE like a real economy, well, I don't think that it will be possible in all its intricacies, since it will involve ridiculous amount of upkeep and constant developer involvement to adjust/create/manage events. No one can do that. We can only rely on artificial curbs, and the more economy develops, the more surgical the artificial curbs need to become. Making insurance, more realistic can be a possible alternative, but then again, it will be a small artificial intrusion, just as small as the cutting off the pay-outs on large ships.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.06 00:49:00 - [113] Also remember that we are only seeing a very tiny portion of the EvE population, a Dev said recently that the entire player-base of EvE represents less than .01% of the EvE universe? (if I remember right) Even though the majority of the rest of the citizens will be less affluent than pod pilots, we are still talking a huge amount of cash that our collective wallets won't equal. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Acama Asante Amarr Unity Star	Posted - 2007.06.06 01:05:00 - [114] Originally by: Jinx Barker As such, this means we have to wait about 3-5 months more before we can really say with any certainty that the economy is heating up, too much ISK is accumulated and at the same time the demand did not increase, and starting stages of the hyper-inflation, that usually begins with the general deflation. During deflation, while we can buy more with the same amount of money, we also also have less access to money through other means. ( I know I am being pretty basic here). Gist of it being: even greater amounts of ISK will accumulate in a fewer hands, and general public, although being able to buy more for the ISK they already have, will have less access to ISK due the competition in the various sectors and the population growth. Deflation is just a bad as the inflation, most of us know that. It gives an appearance of prosperity, while at the same time paving a slippery-slope road to hyper-inflation. I think EVE has been slipping into deflation for about a year now, give or take a few months. [Sorry Long Post] [Cont/Finished in the next post. Did not anticipate to type so much] Really, really interesting post. It may be "really, really basic" but I bet 90% plus of Eve players don't understand it ... at least I didn't. I had heard that t2 prices may increase again, and it certainly feels "right" that they will (or at least the market will settle), but I had not heard a plausable rationale for that happening before this post. I have to add that playing EVE in a hyperinflationary economy might be interesting and fun, but I doubt it will happen due to whining if it does That being said, it's difficult to see how hyperinflation would affect the t1 economy, as mineral costs are fixed within a range by NPC sales and insurance. If missions, for example, only yield a highly limited amount of ISK and commodities such as datacores which are devalued, then people will change to activities that yield ISK+minerals... such as 0.0 ratting. 0.0 is not saturated with ratters, nor I think would it be if every current Eve player ratted there. Efficiency at that might decrease a bit though due to competition How do you work out the purchasing power of ISK in an economy where staple goods (t1) are always available but luxury commodities (t2) operate in a unrestricted economy? The picture is further complicated by the possible emergence of tech 3 in some form (invention?) NB I have very little knowledge of Economics
Nolin Riis Gallente Placid Reborn The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2007.06.06 01:23:00 - [115] Honestly, I don't think the guys farming complexes and COSMOS in their command ships for 16 hours a day are too worried about their insurance coverage. Never a threat, but always a thorn in the side.
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.06.06 01:25:00 - [116] Originally by: Whu FlungPoo Edited by: Whu FlungPoo on 05/06/2007 16:36:27 Read the Dev Blog. This is all being taken care of. This entire thread is a waste of time. All static complexes will be hidden. Their's a 10/10 in system I travel through daily.. The same 5 people are their 16 hours a day. These complexes are dumping 100s of billions of isk on the market every day. Yes but are they still static, if yes then hiding them will solve nothing.
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.06 01:57:00 - [117] 1) I had heard that t2 prices may increase again, and it certainly feels "right" that they will (or at least the market will settle), but I had not heard a plausable rationale for that happening before this post. Prices will go up, because the T2 prices are no longer controlled by the T2 producers. Whereas in the "olden days" - we had re-sellers who inflated the price due to a scarcity of the product; forcing T2 producers to keep up the price as not to loose the profit. We now have a more empowered 0.0/Low. Sec population who are in control of the advanced materials production & T2 Component market chain. Basically, if any T2 item that will start spinning out of control it will become the subject to Invention, and will be kept in balance. However with invention we also have the people who are inventing for profit and on a massive scale. As such, we have a greater number of people now producing T2 and competing for a limited resource - Advanced Materials+T2 Components, subsequently they will rise in price, and as they do, so will the "advanced" T2 items like HACs, Command Ships, Combat Recon, Interdictors, Interceptors; especially the items that are frequently used for PVP, since they will die more often. 2) I have to add that playing EVE in a hyperinflationary economy might be interesting and fun, but I doubt it will happen due to whining if it does I agree, before it happens, some major breaks will be installed by the developers to prevent it. 3) That being said, it's difficult to see how hyperinflation would affect the t1 economy, as mineral costs are fixed within a range by NPC sales and insurance. If missions, for example, only yield a highly limited amount of ISK and commodities such as datacores which are devalued, then people will change to activities that yield ISK+minerals... such as 0.0 ratting. 0.0 is not saturated with ratters, nor I think would it be if every current Eve player ratted there. Efficiency at that might decrease a bit though due to competition Yes, 0.0 is not saturated; but ALL of 0.0 is not created equal. Take a note of the Alliance Map, they - Alliances - are forced to keep great swatch of territory to support the NPCing & mining - since not all of the constellations are worth much just alone by themselves. If anything, we shall see a greater proliferation of Moon Mining - especially in the "unprofitable" mining/ratting areas - with the increase of Invention & as the population ages & can fly a greater number of T2 ships at more reasonable prices. T1 Economy is a bit out of whack at the moment, it was always more of a safety net than anything else. Hyperinflation does not have to be the uncontrolled 20% inflation/month; it can be as low as 10%. The way it would happen is if the, I pulled it from Wiki: 1) The general population prefers to keep its wealth in non-monetary assets or in a relatively stable foreign currency. In EVE we have one currency against which to measure: Minerals. As such, as soon as players keep the Minerals vs. buying them from other players/entities: Nocxium in particular, in my opinion - since it is widely used as a median between High End/Low End in production - we have a sign of Hyperinflation. 2) The general population regards monetary amounts not in terms of the local currency but in terms of a relatively stable foreign currency. Again, Mineral/T2 Component/Advanced material investments juxtaposed against ISK accumulation. 3) Interest rates, wages and prices are linked to a price index & the cumulative inflation rate over three years approaches, or exceeds, 100%. I am thinking û an artificial increase of prices of goods by the major manufacturing circles. But, generally, meaning that majority of people will start charging more & more to offset the decreasing value of money. Since the ôincomeö to most pod pilots means ratting, people who are not part of an organized infrastructure will suffer the most. Basically ISK out of control.
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.06.06 03:27:00 - [118] Mining become obsolete? No. Mining without a team of alts or v high skills is perhaps a thing of the past if u wanna make real volumes of isk. But its still vital for EVEs economy & a perfectly viable way for players & corps to make isk. Are rich ppl hurting eve? again no. There are more rich ppl then there were. There are more players then their were. The % of players that are "rich" I expect hasnt changed much (i have 200mill isk n dont consider myself rich yet as has been said in early eve that was an insane sum) n tbh I dont think their effect on EVE has really changed either. Unless it was hurting EVE before I dont think it is now. SScrap Insurance? No. I think it needs changing, more accurately reflecting market prices n perhaps not being quite so generous as it is no (the last thing insurance companies are is generous ). But removing it will, imo, make PvP in all but frigates n cruisers (which tbh, is rather boring after a while) something exclusive to those with alot of isk. A decently fitted Megathron will cost around 140-150mill isk to replace without insurance. Thats not easy to make back for alot of ppl. Given how vital battleships, capships etc are for 0.0 alliance warfare atm (for better or worse), removing insurance would ultimately be bad for PvP in EVE. Better isk sink? Yes I think better ones are needed. More things should be introduced that, for example, that are merely status symbols (much like some faction & special event ships are). Something to spend isk on thats attarctive to do so but equally not all that consequential (or isk making) in having. I think invention or buying T2 BPO(s) is/was a good isk sink for some. IPOs & shares simularly are, although given the number of scams that happen its hardly an attarctive isk sink, though i think changes are coming. & if nothing else, fitting a ship as expensively as can afford is quite a good way to burn isk. & should NPCs only sell some things? I dont think so. While EVEs hyper capitalistic market system is, I think, making inflation worse (prices dropping as disposable isk appears to become more abundant, T2 especially). It is one of the great & unique things about EVE. Making something purely only sold by NPCs (BPOs, tradegoods n starbase structures are almost like that) would not be in the spirit of that system. As with removing insurance, I think it is a change for the worse & not worth it for the sake of curbing isk inflation.
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.06 03:47:00 - [119] Originally by: Red Gabba Removing insurance would be silly, improving it would be sensible. insurance should be risk assessed based on, the amount of ships you lose (each claim for insurance increases the amount next time) That is exactly what I was thinking and it's a great idea. CCP, take a hint from real life. The more you crash your ship the more the insurance companies are going to charge you. This will make sure newbs won't be totally owned by ship loss but that it will hurt full-time PvPers more. --- Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo
Ariel Dawn Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.06 03:48:00 - [120] Introduce the X - Advanced and X - Elite Attribute implants that can be purchased from NPC corporations only for huge amounts of ISK. More item/ship rewards from agents instead of straight ISK.
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:07:00 - [121] I agree that there is way too much ISK in the game, and it is way too easy to make ISK as well. Losing a ship means nothing, it is replaced extremely easily. Losing many many ships per day everyday can hurt in a really nasty war over a long period of time, and that never happens in Empire. Insurance is a problem and the low cost of ISK available to purchase on the internet is another problem. RISE Recruitment Thread
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:08:00 - [122] Edited by: Jinx Barker on 06/06/2007 04:10:04 Originally by: Louis DelaBlanche Better isk sink? Yes I think better ones are needed. More things should be introduced that, for example, that are merely status symbols (much like some faction & special event ships are). Something to spend isk on thats attarctive to do so but equally not all that consequential (or isk making) in having. I think invention or buying T2 BPO(s) is/was a good isk sink for some. IPOs & shares simularly are, although given the number of scams that happen its hardly an attarctive isk sink, though i think changes are coming. & if nothing else, fitting a ship as expensively as can afford is quite a good way to burn isk. I think you missed a point on the ISK Sink/Faucet issue, let me clarify it for you: Buying T2 BPO from a Player - Not an ISK Sink (even if you spend ISK to buy it) Buying a T2 Ship - Not an ISK Sink (even if you spend ISK to buy it) Invention: NOT an ISK Sink.... (It is a pain in the ARSE, but not a sink). IPO : Not an ISK Sink... Scams: NOT an ISK Sink... All of the above already redistribute the existing ISK, from one player to the next. Examples of ISK Sinks: POS = ISK Sink, you BUY things from the NPCs and they get destroyed by the POS. POS itself, when blown up is an ISK sink, since ISK left the game permanently. BPOs - ISK Sink. Since you buy BPOs from NPCs & ISK is gone. Taxes/Fees/Refinery Fees, etc, - ISK Sinks. Communication Charge: ISK Sink, since it takes ISK out of game permanently. Anytime you give ISK to the NPC Entity = ISk Sink. Something that takes ISK out of game permanently is an ISK sink. Examples of ISK Faucets: Insurance: Since it pays "fresh" ISK from "great beyond". Mining/Ratting/Mission Running: make new "fresh" ISK come into the game. Eve's economy is based on the Sink/Faucet principal. Theoretically they should be well balanced, and I think, at the moment we are still within the balance. But, I think that ISK faucets have well outpaced ISK sinks - as such more ISK sinks should be introduced. Originally by: Redundancy We call anything that introduces money into the economy an ISK Faucet and anything that takes it out again an ISK Sink. I hope that clarified some points for you. We need more ISK sinks, or modification of existing ISK sinks, to prevent EVE economy from overheating/growing too rapidly, because that invariably leads to a recession, inflation, etc, despite seeming prosperity in the beginning.
Bluestealth Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 04:31:00 - [123] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Xtreem however this would be harsh for new players, perhaps the level of poss insurance lowers per class level so by the time your at BS you can only get a 20% payout, 50% for bc, 75% for cruisers etc to help the new guys But if insurance is removed, the new players wouldn't need bigger ships as quickly because other players would have smaller ships also. I suggested removing insurance a long time ago as well... I think I got flamed for it. It really MUST GO.
Mr Adequate Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 05:47:00 - [124] Edited by: Mr Adequate on 06/06/2007 05:50:51 Wealth taxation is of course a reasonable ISK sink; empires don't run without money, but it wouldn't be any fun if there weren't any escapes for the truly rich and infamous. Step 1. Introduce wealth taxation This is an exponentially increasing tax rate, eg. the poor pay little ; the rich pay lots. The tax is charged by the characters home nation on a weekly / monthly basis. Step 2. Introduce Nationhood and citizenship If you have sovereignty over a system you can apply for "nationhood" status and set your own wealth taxes. Thus creating a loophole for the super rich. They can escape to a cheaper nation and become a citizen. But if the nation charges too little or is poorly run (eg. does not pay tribute to bigger neighbors or fight its way out of corners) it will likely be overrun; indirectly driving the overall tax rate up. Charge too much and nobody wants to be a citizen Thus giving the rich an interest in investing their money in the protection of their offshore assets. An earlier Bob discussion mentioned a member fee of 100 million p/month and ratting taxes -- just to put this into perspective. Nationhood is probably good for another reason -- what is the point of being a CEO if your company stretches over galaxy's? You'd better be off as "emperor" or "king". There are quite a few loopholes here -- one of course would be to keep your assets in inventory stock not ISK. [Edit] Why not just apply this to the players company? The parent company can reside in empire and thus has no risk. The loss of sovereignty is a risk required to make this work -- otherwise there is no need to spend money on self preservation/expansion by the "nation".
xeom Exit 13 Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:19:00 - [125] Yea lets remove ship insurance so we can totally nerf the active PVPer and buff the macro 0.0 npcer. The only thing that should have insurance removed are cap ships ANY cap ship should not get insurance. --- 8) The coolest smiley ever!
Azirapheal Amarr kleptomaniacs	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:33:00 - [126] reading through this lengthy post from end to end before i make my response.. now there be a frst i tell you! it all generally seems to balance on the fountain/faucet curry/toilet theory. as an ardent pvper (that has never had any luck ratting btw, i think ive seen 3 dread spawns, that all dropped tags and ammo - worthless) i can quite safely say, that unless you gank at gates for maximum efficiency it is incredibly hard to turn a profit, you go in with a 140 million ship and gank that 5 mill caracal, and while you are looting his corpse his 3 mates jump you and whip it all away (your ship) its a bummer. to compensate for the fact that i pvp i have 2 alts - one who isa (very) successful trader, about 7 months older than azi - and the otehr that produces ammo and weapons for my pvp purposes, leaving azi only truly with the cost of the ship and named/t2 mods where i want them. tho point im trying to make is thus - azi is relatively poor, and without my highsec alt floating around wtfbbqpwning markets i would not be able to fund my pvp habit (only now do i consider myself to about break even on the pvp front, after over a year) people have proposed scrapping insurance, increasing isk sinks etc etc. but the only truly rich people (apart from macroers) that i see are either the old school t2 lottery winners, or the empire mission runners. why is this? 1) high sec is too safe - yes there are highly organised groups of suicide gankers picking on wealthy idiots that decide to ship their brand new slave set in a shuttle, get scanned and popped and eys there are people jet mining and getting griefed when they take their ore back - but fundamentally it is too safe. what i propose to amend this (and thus start moving isk around the economy more) is to make highsec LESS safe - removal of concorde as per tobias sjodins suggestion over in crime and punishment being one method. booting players greater than 1 month old from non-wardecable npc corps - maybe putting them into no-corps - free runners not trusted by the state and shootable by anyone without repercussion (ohnoes a gallente spy if in caldari space etc) this both prevents noobcorp isk farmers whoring missions in safety (and thus generating 15 hours a day worth of isk) and forces wealthy inhabitants of the noob corps (like my trader) to look to other players for protection - etc allowing greater integration of players with one another. space is big, vast even. concord cannot spawn and protect people afking through highsec (.5-.9) from an RP pov - sapce is just too big to enforce in this manner. an i KNOW that if the bears (as wel las the pvpers that maintain high sec statuses) are able to be hit more often, they will ahve to spend more and more isk on themselves etc, which can be funneled into a faucet. and one last suggestion to allow people to take more risks to earn their reward cut high sec off. as it currently stands you can get to pretty much any highsec system, completely ignoring lowsec in its entirety provided you are prepared to make extra jumps = low sec alot of it is cut off from eachother - even jsut lowering all .5 .6 down to .4 will create highsec islands for the empires with lowsec imbetween, forcing interaction and losses and generating a flow of isk currently held in either high sec, or 00 right, going to sleep, law exam in a few hours Originally by: CCP Wrangler you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.06 06:54:00 - [127] Idiots talk about economics ITT. The only effect of their being more ISK about is that the proportional value of ISK is reduced. This does not effect mining in anyway. This does not effect production in anyway. In fact, this effects absolutely no sort of goods based item exchange. The ONLY thing this effects is (1) the proportional value of the ISK in your wallet (due to inflation) and the proportional value of systems which give ISK as rewards (missions, rat bounties). And this is relatively unaffected depending on what inflation is - if the volume of goods and ISK stays in a fixed ratio, there is zero inflation and all this stays the same. So...everyone else should shut the hell up, because the only reason these threads tend to exist is because people feel that if others somehow got less money, overall they'd be richer. Which, well, they wouldn't unless serious negative inflation happened and let's face it, that's a pretty poor argument for change.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.06 07:38:00 - [128] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Trevedian Suggestions? Comments? Quite apart from allways seeing old, broke PvPers in this game - there's inflation and it's directly caused by CCP. No more need be said. Actually, its not inflation. Stuff is not getting more expensive iskwise, people just have more isk. Its economic growth and increased 'labour productivity'. Which is logical in itself. When I came to 0.0 about 15 months ago, I had to warp out repeatedly to kill certain triple BS spawns. A month later, I could tank them and kill them => productivity increase. Another month later, I could kill them 30% faster due to better skills and a better fitted ship => productivity increase. Same with miners, and that is getting another boost soon. When I first started playing, if I wanted to mine it would be in a badger or an osprey. A year later (if I would focus on mining atm), I could field a skilled CBC tank with mining mods, 2 hulk capable characters and a hauler that brings in more than a full can each run, and I mine much more valuable minerals. What people are describing here is economic growth, and the way the game is currently going with ever greater focus on capital ships, we need that productivity in order to be able to follow the 'path' set out by CCP. We can agree or disagree with that path, but nerfing income now would cause problems. ------------------------------------------------ Simple spelling lessons for forum posters: A point is moot, not mute Guerilla tactics are different from [red]g
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.06 08:06:00 - [129] Originally by: James Duar Idiots talk about economics ITT. The only effect of their being more ISK about is that the proportional value of ISK is reduced. This does not effect mining in anyway. This does not effect production in anyway. In fact, this effects absolutely no sort of goods based item exchange. The ONLY thing this effects is (1) the proportional value of the ISK in your wallet (due to inflation) and the proportional value of systems which give ISK as rewards (missions, rat bounties). And this is relatively unaffected depending on what inflation is - if the volume of goods and ISK stays in a fixed ratio, there is zero inflation and all this stays the same. So...everyone else should shut the hell up, because the only reason these threads tend to exist is because people feel that if others somehow got less money, overall they'd be richer. Which, well, they wouldn't unless serious negative inflation happened and let's face it, that's a pretty poor argument for change. Well, given that goods prices and ISK influx does not, in fact, appear to go hand in hand, it does have an influence on production - what kind of products are being bought and so forth. People seem to be increasingly able to by what is considered luxury items. So I think everyone else should debate the effects and/or if it needs change, if its ok with you?
Bentula	Posted - 2007.06.06 08:09:00 - [130] Removing insurance would be quite a ISK sink but wouldnt actually change anything apart from noobs having a harder time. I know plenty of people that fly nothing but Hacs and CS, or capitals. Those people already have no insurance(well capitals technically have but its so rare to loose them) and it doesnt bother them in the slightest. Personally i wouldnt care for insurance anyway, i dont loose enough BS to really make it matter and im sure many others are in a similar position. So dont take insurance away, yes its a isk sink, but its going to take the money from the wrong people. The rich people dont care either way and the new/poor players have to spend even more of their time grinding to compete. If ccp wants to improve the isk sink in the game they could just increase the costs of the npc sold pos components and allow corps to tax things like trading or contracts.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:28:00 - [131] Originally by: James Duar QFT... And actually, creating more isk sink will do the opposite of what is generally wanted : make mission runners richer, while all fixed rewards (mission / bounties) become more important. CCP ! Delete ISK sinks so mining / production / looting can finally be profitable !
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:39:00 - [132] I still got a biased feeling that poeple who talk about "to much isk" are poeple who dont pvp, just make isk all time, buy shiny ships that they put to hangar so they can look at them or something. In that case ofc i can believe you got to much isk, but you will alwys have and thats natural... Now all my friends from 0.0 without t2 bpo i know are or constantly broke or just ok.They never have to much isk.Pvp is the drain and its an ultra drain in 0.0 . If yuo dont do it sure you will have tons of isk, but eve is designed with pvp as main feature. Im here from start of the game and im constantly broke, just recently decided to go solo more or less so i have more time for making isk and fianlly earned for my first carrer....Never had time while in alliances, pvp constantly took the isk i earned... - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
Lenaria Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna	Posted - 2007.06.06 13:52:00 - [133] Originally by: Bentula Removing insurance would be quite a ISK sink but wouldnt actually change anything apart from noobs having a harder time.ts. Another one who dont understand what is "isk sink". Removing insurance WILL NOT introduce ISK sink. Becouse, obviosly, no ISK left the game that way. It will shut up isk inflow thought, that may be also not bad. ============================================== 1 Titan is ok, 2 kills any fun, 3 make peoples quit eve. No wonder online numbers decline for 3rd month.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:00:00 - [134] Originally by: Trak Cranker Originally by: James Duar Idiots talk about economics ITT. The only effect of their being more ISK about is that the proportional value of ISK is reduced. This does not effect mining in anyway. This does not effect production in anyway. In fact, this effects absolutely no sort of goods based item exchange. The ONLY thing this effects is (1) the proportional value of the ISK in your wallet (due to inflation) and the proportional value of systems which give ISK as rewards (missions, rat bounties). And this is relatively unaffected depending on what inflation is - if the volume of goods and ISK stays in a fixed ratio, there is zero inflation and all this stays the same. So...everyone else should shut the hell up, because the only reason these threads tend to exist is because people feel that if others somehow got less money, overall they'd be richer. Which, well, they wouldn't unless serious negative inflation happened and let's face it, that's a pretty poor argument for change. Well, given that goods prices and ISK influx does not, in fact, appear to go hand in hand, it does have an influence on production - what kind of products are being bought and so forth. People seem to be increasingly able to by what is considered luxury items. As was pointed out above - this is economic growth, it's an increase in New Edens GDP. Inflation is really pretty well balanced in EVE, but the game acts as a fairly deep economic simulator with some rather funny externalities and consumer habits so the valuation of things gets seriously skewed. This happens in the real world too, but to a lesser extent.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:17:00 - [135] Just to answer one arguement here about loss of ships. Lets face it people, for a serious hardcore money grinder, its virtually impossible to lose a ship in 0.0 if you're willing to play the logoffski card, or have a reasonably intelligent safe spot and a cloaking device. A pure PvE player who's dedicated to the art of avoiding PvP combat will NOT lose their ship within a few months of training a well documented list of skills, no matter what the particulars of their grinding method happen to be.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:26:00 - [136] Originally by: Janu Hull Just to answer one arguement here about loss of ships. Lets face it people, for a serious hardcore money grinder, its virtually impossible to lose a ship in 0.0 if you're willing to play the logoffski card, or have a reasonably intelligent safe spot and a cloaking device. A pure PvE player who's dedicated to the art of avoiding PvP combat will NOT lose their ship within a few months of training a well documented list of skills, no matter what the particulars of their grinding method happen to be. A pure PVE player is unlikely to be contributing much of their obtained ISK to the economy in the first place though - and if the money never partakes in the economy, the it never affects it either.
icechip Caldari Cirrius Technologies O X I D E	Posted - 2007.06.06 14:43:00 - [137] Insurance should work like it does in real life, if you keep losing your ships you get points, So the cost of insurance of your ship goes up, then it gets to a point where they wont insure you because your a high risk factor and the only way to fix it is you fly without loosing your ships after a while. Your ships would have to get registered. So you would have a flying record. It would be kinda cool in a way. Then suicides would end up costing ppl after a while. Just a thought it would work it does in real life. 14 Million SP and still cant fly nothing---
Ion Flux No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:20:00 - [138] Here is an Idea for an Isk sink Have a doctor Labotomize( dig into yer skull) and implant skills into yer head at the cost of Billions simple and sweet?? Ion PS dont ask me to do the math
DeadDuck Amarr Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:21:00 - [139] Well regarding the Topic... I hear people saying about billions and stuff... my wallet just dont go up. I play every day and my biggest number in the wallet was about 600m. To much pew pew I guess Anyway I really dont care about my wallet. What do you want the isks for ? To fly a ship and have fun ... period. ------------------ Ex D2 proud member
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:21:00 - [140] The current economy of EVE has truly ruined alot of the enjoyment in EVE for me. I no longer get worried about losing a ship because it is easy to get enough ISK to replace it, if I don't already have it which I do. In a way, I'm reminded of games like WoW where I can die and I just don't care because I can easily get it all back. Even a casual player can get into a battleship reasonably quickly so it takes away from that sense of accomplishment of having worked to get it. I'm reminded of a term called 'munchkin' gaming when I think of how things were 4 years ago (if you remove all the bugs) to how things are now with the way people whined to have things changed and getting their way. I truly miss the spirit of the way things were compared to the 'status quo' of the way things are now. In essence, I feel like the developers sold out in their original vision.
Ira Theos	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:22:00 - [141] Reading these posts, I just have to laugh at how totally out of touch the "beta players" are with the reality of this game..... Too much isk??? WHAT A JOKE. It's like listening to billionaires talk about about unemployment. Their jaws are flapping, but they have no practical sense about the real world issues of the common man. (Apologies to Dark Shikari whom I respect, but...) The subject of 10/10 complexes and the T2 loottery (pun intended) and how they have completely unbalanced the game economics is something I have preached against for some time. Invention has done a great deal to reduce the T2 BPO cartel's grip, but these fixed 10/10 compexes are still pouring billions into the hands of the few who were here early enough to seize control. Yes I said "early" and not "skilled".. it took no "skill" of any kind for early players in this game to spawn-camp these complexes when they first appeared and sit and amass billions which they have used to control zero space. If all the people who accuse BOB of cheating want to know the secret of their success, they need look no further. Remove these sources from the game and the big fish become bottom feeders like the rest. The problem in this game is not that there is too much isk, but that the available sources of isk are concentrated in the hands of too few players by the way the game is structured. It is a problem of balance... not amount. As for all the comments about how easy it is to earn isk.... utter piffle! Anyone who has played this game for at least a year knows the truth. "It's a PvP game!... It's a PvP game.... It's a PvP game!!! PvP or go home !!"...... LOL... OK, if you say so... but everyone of your PvP characters is supported by an industrial base that is founded upon either BPO's or 10/10 complexes. Anyone that is not is not even a contender. If you ain't plugged into one of these two... you ain't jack! Rant over, flame on!
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.06.06 15:51:00 - [142] For isk sinks, low and no sec casinos. Also BPOs for implants, those were intended to be manufactured and with them being costly yet possible to build more people will fly implants in combat and losses will increase. Not neccessarily the faction implants. Hurting missionrunners you say, why not introduce other useful goods as rewards there instead, there should be no shortage of good supplements, reactions, advanced materials, refined ice products, rigs, capital ship componants, POS goods, rare skills... As for people becoming too rich, that's in part due to rich people congregating with other rich people as to not risk their wealth, see BoB and cronies. Also Known As
Arachidamia Matari People's Front	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:12:00 - [143] Removing all insurance would screw over newbs and pvp players, and wreck the current balance between t1 and t2 ships. It wouldn't solve anything. Though I will agree removing insurance for Concord kills (and perhaps 0.0 as well) is long overdue. As I see it, Eve has lost some of the balance in that 0.0 ratting/lvl4 missions are the form of income. You can (fairly safely) make stupid stupid amounts of isk in both, as well as generate large amounts of minerals reprocessing. Mining has little place, especially in low sec. The fact the newbie ship has a gun and a mining laser should be a clue as to what the original aimed balance was. If you ask me 0.0 ratting and lvl4's both need a hefty hit with the nerf bat, especially regarding reprocessing of loot. Then people might actually get back to you know.. actually mining. It's how you're supposed to get minerals after all. And when mining is worth doing in low sec, it's worth protecting. And then you've not only got more people into low sec you've got more people into pvp as well. Win win for everyone except the lone isk farmers grinding those lvl4's/0.0 rats. And I say this as someone who currently makes virtually all isk in ratting/lvl4's.
Zilkin Amarr adeptus gattacus Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:22:00 - [144] There is definetly too much isk. I have to say though removing insurance would hurt the already poor most, the people who do almost nothing but pvp and newbs. I think we need to reduce the isk coming from missioning and plexes also I think raising broker/contract fees a small amount might be a good idea. A bit different isk sink might be some kind of npc run casino where players could waste their isk.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:25:00 - [145] Originally by: Bistot Kid Scrap the whole concept of insurance. I agree, whats up with that? All these so called tough guys saying how EVE is awsome because you get real loss, so what's up with insurance. And what stupid company would give you money for a ship you bring into battle and war? I never get insurance Gankers & pirates get insurance, what loosers! lol. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:29:00 - [146] Originally by: Zilkin There is definetly too much isk. I have to say though removing insurance would hurt the already poor most, the people who do almost nothing but pvp and newbs. I think we need to reduce the isk coming from missioning and plexes also I think raising broker/contract fees a small amount might be a good idea. A bit different isk sink might be some kind of npc run casino where players could waste their isk. Gankers stay rich because of insurance, and when they do it in low sec they do not loose their ship mostly. I mean come on, if you are in a HaC with a tank with Drones, and attacking a miner you think you are gong to loose your ship? The gankers are in control, at least get rid of insurance if you are the one to instagate the fight. It makes sense anyways. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Pimm Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.06.06 16:43:00 - [147] One of the side effects of making ISK harder to acumulate will be the exponential increase in ISK sellers and buyers. And that's a real problem. I'm quite amazed that there has not been some sort of mailbomb ISK advertisement like in WoW.
Hel Wintersbane	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:19:00 - [148] Can't CCP be creative and come up with an isk sink? Jove Clones that look nice and cost loads and don't do much else would exhaust alot of isk, etc.
Vodka Neat Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:33:00 - [149] I said it once and i'll say it again ---station can BPC's--- (not bpos) for all those guys out in 0.0 who would love to be able to organize their loot. I would be willing to pay a fairly large amount for a 10-12 run BPC and I know many more who feel the same. Why are you still reading? Its over. Continue to the next post.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.06 18:36:00 - [150] just remove insurance. completely. i see it as a flaw in the game that insurance always pays out more than you invest. if you remove it you effectively remove some of the isk injection into the economy. this in itself might not be enough. but it would get you some of the way or maybe keep the insurance, but make it increasingly worse the bigger your ship. then the new players wouldn't lose much, only the older ones would. __________________________________ need a new sig :(
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.06 19:31:00 - [151] I have to agree with someone up thread who said it wasn't that there is too much ISK in the game, but that the ISK is poorly distributed. To this end there is something that CCP did very well: salvage. It seems to be a good method of wealth distribution since even younger players can do it and sell components to richer players who don't take to the time to salvage their wrecks. I wish it had been around back when I was new to 0.0 and couldn't tank the spawns. "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.06.06 20:50:00 - [152] Everyone's jumped right into problem solving mode. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but how was it determined that there was one? I'm just curious. ------------------- Say What?
Jinx Barker GFB Scientific	Posted - 2007.06.06 23:07:00 - [153] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Everyone's jumped right into problem solving mode. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but how was it determined that there was one? I'm just curious. At the moment we do not have a problem really, a slight deflation, well, dipped a bit more from the September 2006. But, other than that we are in a very good shape. The ISK is holding steady, more or less, the GDP is growing, more goods are becoming available and at better prices. I am not sure if you braved the stuff I said above, but the gist of is that we might be heading further into deflation, that can, possibly, if unchecked, turn into hyper inflation. We are still long way away, but the OP made me think about the general economic trends in EVE. So, for now, we are OK. There are some dangers though, and I agree with the OP that perhaps more ISK sinks need to be introduced. Insurance is a good place to start, just needs a balanced approach. It is not the question of too much ISK, it is the question of the accessibility of the ISK. Anyway, I just want another dev blog on the state of the economy, but, I think it is too early at this point, too many changes have taken place, too recently. Best time to do some data-mining will be in September, when things will shake down a bit, so I will have to wait.
Jack Bower	Posted - 2007.06.06 23:24:00 - [154] As a new guy in the eve-universe, just starting level 2 missions, moneys still means stuff to me hehe. After spending 2 hours on fitting the perfect setup for my vexor then losing it on the second one. I screamed a loud "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuu*ck which woke up my house hehe. I guess you have to have these lessons drummed into you, and hopefully not make them again. I was pleasantly suprised though to see how much isk was made even on level 2 missions. I can see once your in level 4 missions isk will be spilling out your pockets :)
sessicant	Posted - 2007.06.07 00:24:00 - [155] I know how to fix the isk problem. I am taking it upon myself to be the new EvE ISK sink. If you feel guilty about havning several billion isk, feel free to transfer it to my account.
Whalesaver mega mining corporation Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 00:38:00 - [156] Edited by: Whalesaver on 07/06/2007 00:39:45 Edited by: Whalesaver on 07/06/2007 00:37:19 Those people who believe it is too easy to make isk are forgetting how difficult the early game is for starters. I remember grinding level 2 missions to get standings and isk to afford my first cruiser for level 3's. I don't see too much has changed. We don't have hard evidence on the 'average' players wealth but I would hazard a guess that the silent majority would disagree strongly. Even for long time players, unless you have access to plexes, isk making still involves commitment of time and effort in mining or ratting. This coupled with insurance payouts on tech II ships invalidates the central argument. I for one don't even bother insuring my ships, as getting 20 mill or some such for a tech II kitted Nighthawk is basically worthless. ----------------------- Doesn't shoot first Will ask questions later And enjoys a nice cup of tea
Alvara Kuiper Belt Industries Empire Research	Posted - 2007.06.07 00:39:00 - [157] "introduce reduced payoff according to where the ship was lost (sec)" I like. :) Tired of Waiting? Use Empire Research
Chr0nosX	Posted - 2007.06.07 01:10:00 - [158] Originally by: Earthan I still got a biased feeling that poeple who talk about "to much isk" are poeple who dont pvp, just make isk all time, buy shiny ships that they put to hangar so they can look at them or something. In that case ofc i can believe you got to much isk, but you will alwys have and thats natural... Now all my friends from 0.0 without t2 bpo i know are or constantly broke or just ok.They never have to much isk.Pvp is the drain and its an ultra drain in 0.0 . If yuo dont do it sure you will have tons of isk, but eve is designed with pvp as main feature. Im here from start of the game and im constantly broke, just recently decided to go solo more or less so i have more time for making isk and fianlly earned for my first carrer....Never had time while in alliances, pvp constantly took the isk i earned... QFT. I never have too much ISK people who say they do either don't pvp much or at all. The biggest ISK sink in the game is PvP.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.07 01:15:00 - [159] Originally by: Alvara "introduce reduced payoff according to where the ship was lost (sec)" I like. :) So you're planning on fighting against the PvPers who come back to high sec to wardec corps of newbs then? //Maya
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.07 02:53:00 - [160] Originally by: Jinx Barker At the moment we do not have a problem really, a slight deflation, well, dipped a bit more from the September 2006. But, other than that we are in a very good shape. The ISK is holding steady, more or less, the GDP is growing, more goods are becoming available and at better prices. Agreed, if anything 1 ISK is worth more today then it has been in the past. Originally by: Jinx Barker I am not sure if you braved the stuff I said above, but the gist of is that we might be heading further into deflation, that can, possibly, if unchecked, turn into hyper inflation. We are still long way away, but the OP made me think about the general economic trends in EVE. I'm curious as to how you see this coming about. The only way hyper-inflation could occur would be if suddenly a lot more ISK starts entering compared to goods being produced. I do not see how this could happen. Originally by: Jinx Barker So, for now, we are OK. There are some dangers though, and I agree with the OP that perhaps more ISK sinks need to be introduced. Insurance is a good place to start, just needs a balanced approach. ISK sinks can screw an economy just as easily as sources. They damp the entire economy because they favor keeping ISK in your wallet rather then spending it on goods. They're equivalent to an interest rate in many ways. Originally by: Jinx Barker It is not the question of too much ISK, it is the question of the accessibility of the ISK. I'm not convinced you actually know what you're trying to say here.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 04:21:00 - [161] Unfortunately CCP has been moving away from "hardcore" game feel to something more carebearized and WoW-like. In particular, they did so by: 1. boosting insurance 2. boosting missions 3. reducing clone costs 4. making 0.0 NPC spawns much easier to kill and avoid 5. reducing number of low security empire systems by increasing security Maybe people like these changes, but there are already many games with this style of play. If we want to keep EVE hardcore, we need to reverse those changes: 1. Nerf insurance. Keep current insurance system only for t1 frigs and cruisers. All other ship classes should have no NPC insurance coverage. Disable insurance for t1 frigs and cruisers if the character owning them has security status of -5 or lower, if if the ship was destroyed by CONCORD 2. Nerf missions. No level 4+ mission should be available in high security space. It's already hard enough to scan mission runners. Most level 4 mission runners in high sec are running Navy Ravens with faction gear, completely solo. This is evidence that they have it too easy. It should never be that easy in game like EVE. 3. Clone costs should be restored to Castor (or pre-castor) levels. A 45 mil sp char should be prepared to pay out 32 mil. 4. 0.0 belt spawn NPC strengths should be restored to Castor levels. In particular, there need to be much more warp scrambling and webbing NPCs. Currently, your average 0.0 isk farmer character with noobish skills uses a Raven with 2 warp core stabs and t1 cloak. Such a Raven setup has no problem if killing every possible 0.0 belt spawn. This is unacceptably easy. There should be at least some 0.0 belt spawns that are too hard for such poorly setup, poorly skilled Ravens. The fact that chinese macro miners started prefering 0.0 belt spawn farming to mining just shows how wrong things are going in EVE. 5. Many empire systems that had their security status raised to 0.5 and above should be returned back to 0.4 or below. At the same time, to balance out the shrinking high sec space, introduce measures that make high sec suicide ganking harder: such as CONCORD remote-repaiering the victim (will only help victims in big ships or well tanked ones). But the true nature of EVE should remain PvP, hence empire space should have a lot more low sec systems.
grandmaat22	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:54:00 - [162] I agree there is too much isk in EVE... But alot of these suggestions are rubbish. I think the best way to solve this problem is to create something everyone wants, and to make it cost $$$. Problem solved... Get to work on it CCP!
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.11 17:16:00 - [163] Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Jinx Barker At the moment we do not have a problem really, a slight deflation, well, dipped a bit more from the September 2006. But, other than that we are in a very good shape. The ISK is holding steady, more or less, the GDP is growing, more goods are becoming available and at better prices. Agreed, if anything 1 ISK is worth more today then it has been in the past. Pfft. I started doing cargo missions with a hauler not too long ago because I wanted to do something to increase my Creodron standing (which was 0) while I was also talking in EVE. I easily made enough ISK in a couple of hours to get a cruiser. Back in my early days, I mined for weeks to buy one and that was when cruisers were sold by NPCs off the market. Anyone who says ISK is worth more today than it was in the past is just flat out kidding themselves. Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Jinx Barker I am not sure if you braved the stuff I said above, but the gist of is that we might be heading further into deflation, that can, possibly, if unchecked, turn into hyper inflation. We are still long way away, but the OP made me think about the general economic trends in EVE. I'm curious as to how you see this coming about. The only way hyper-inflation could occur would be if suddenly a lot more ISK starts entering compared to goods being produced. I do not see how this could happen. Ratting, maybe? You get much higher bounties than I did way back in EVE's early days and then you get loot to recycle into minerals to sell. Nowadays it has gotten so easy, I started doing the ratting in a Vexor just to be challenged. Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Jinx Barker So, for now, we are OK. There are some dangers though, and I agree with the OP that perhaps more ISK sinks need to be introduced. Insurance is a good place to start, just needs a balanced approach. ISK sinks can screw an economy just as easily as sources. They damp the entire economy because they favor keeping ISK in your wallet rather then spending it on goods. They're equivalent to an interest rate in many ways. They'd have to downscale everything first to make it okay to fly a frigate or cruiser instead of using a battleship for everything like wiping your ass. Originally by: James Duar Originally by: Jinx Barker It is not the question of too much ISK, it is the question of the accessibility of the ISK. I'm not convinced you actually know what you're trying to say here. I think he is refering to 0.0 places. Not everyone can go there without getting shot up. Spending time out there is similiar to doing L4 missions.

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.

8)