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*POLL* Nos after tuesday...

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Dalanoria The Committee of Project Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.17 21:39:00 - [1] Beings I fly amarr recons, im nervously awaiting the results of rev II...... The fact that they didnt allow testing or even information about the change gives me chills... There are no patch notes for changing amarr recon ship bonus, so I assume no matter what happens, my pilgrim is stuck with nos/drones... MY geusse, and hopefuly its the right one, is NOS get a tracking speed multiplier.... Worst case scenarios, fitting requirments dbl, or they become like ecm burst, 1 per ship....
Aravel Thon	Posted - 2007.06.17 21:41:00 - [2] wasnt it signature radius related? or was i on the shrooms when i read that?
Dalanoria The Committee of Project Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.17 21:43:00 - [3] Originally by: Aravel Thon wasnt it signature radius related? or was i on the shrooms when i read that? Ive looked for a dev blog with any information, havn't found anything usefull...
Drazhar Kain Alpha Production Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.17 21:45:00 - [4] In the latest live devblog, they mentioned they were leaning towards having NOS only able to suck down to a certain amount of cap.... say 30% or so left.
n0thing omen.	Posted - 2007.06.17 21:46:00 - [5] First viable: Fitting change. Second viable: Tracking. Third viable: Sig. Fourth viable: Cap related change, i.e. drain amounts/cycles/ranges/activations. Imo, the fitting change if thats how it will be changed, wont do much. ---
Dalanoria The Committee of Project Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.17 22:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Drazhar Kain In the latest live devblog, they mentioned they were leaning towards having NOS only able to suck down to a certain amount of cap.... say 30% or so left. Nothing in the transcript about Nosferatu
n0thing omen.	Posted - 2007.06.17 22:09:00 - [7] Originally by: Dalanoria Originally by: Drazhar Kain In the latest live devblog, they mentioned they were leaning towards having NOS only able to suck down to a certain amount of cap.... say 30% or so left. Nothing in the transcript about Nosferatu There is actually, somewhere near Amarr boost explanations. ---
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.17 22:21:00 - [8] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/06/2007 22:21:08 er..nvmd, misread.
n0thing omen.	Posted - 2007.06.17 22:30:00 - [9] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/06/2007 22:25:26 If that is true we'll have even more capital online though since you won't really be able to break their tanks without out capitals of your own then. Neuting their cap below 30% does not really work, it's just too much. You still do prevent em from jumping so battling a ship with 30% cap and not letting it get any higher means he will run out of it eventually. ---
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.17 22:34:00 - [10] Erm...no? 30% is where the peak recharge is - getting him from 100% to 30% does absolutely nothing for breaking his tank. If the pilot had any clue when he made his setup he won't run out of cap. And not allowing it to jump is pretty pointless when you cannot kill it.
Balcura	Posted - 2007.06.17 22:44:00 - [11] And just as soon as the large rep pulses dropping him to 22% the recharge decreases and the dread need to be worried.
n0thing omen. D-L	Posted - 2007.06.17 22:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Aramendel Erm...no? 30% is where the peak recharge is - getting him from 100% to 30% does absolutely nothing for breaking his tank. If the pilot had any clue when he made his setup he won't run out of cap. And not allowing it to jump is pretty pointless when you cannot kill it. Ofc you should be able to kill top-end 64% hardener fitted dred with a few nosf-BSes. Carriers yes, the dreds? No, since they are meant to be like small assault structures. ---
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.17 22:52:00 - [13] Originally by: n0thing Ofc you should be able to kill top-end 64% hardener fitted dred with a few nosf-BSes. Carriers yes, the dreds? No, since they are meant to be like small assault structures. Carriers have with the triage a better tank than dreads.
Dragy Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2007.06.17 23:03:00 - [14] Originally by: Aramendel Erm...no? 30% is where the peak recharge is - getting him from 100% to 30% does absolutely nothing for breaking his tank. If the pilot had any clue when he made his setup he won't run out of cap. And not allowing it to jump is pretty pointless when you cannot kill it. Actually if you're sucking cap it means that you're adding to your own, so it means that you're not having a useless module. If you don't have any cap rechargers that are helping with the cap recharge rate (like gankamega) then you still have some additional cap If the enemy has a permatank and you get him to 30% cap then you just need to deal more damage then he's repping or probably he won't have a permatank so just wait until his cap dies.
Drazhar Kain Alpha Production Technologies Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.17 23:07:00 - [15] Even if NOS only goes to 30%, neuts will almost definately remained unchanged... so a Nos/Neut BS would still be able to kill a cap's cap.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.06.17 23:08:00 - [16] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/06/2007 23:07:40 Originally by: Dragy If the enemy has a permatank and you get him to 30% cap then you just need to deal more damage then he's repping or probably he won't have a permatank so just wait until his cap dies. And in both cases nos does absolutely nothing to break his tank. It assists your tank a bit, but since this all will also happen while you yourself will be most likely above 30% cap the effect is rather minimal. Cap injectors are wastly superior there. Originally by: Drazhar Kain Even if NOS only goes to 30%, neuts will almost definately remained unchanged... so a Nos/Neut BS would still be able to kill a cap's cap. It won't because it needs the nosses to sustain the neuts.
Dragonrazor Amarr	Posted - 2007.06.17 23:27:00 - [17] I for one am looking forward to almost any kind of nerf... But I agree it has to be the right one of course. The down to 30% cap isn't that bad and it isn't that good. Which IMHO is just right. It in many ways beats a sig radius or tracking nerf, because a tackler or smaller ship will still be able to maintain peak recharge for some time unless neutralized or destroyed, unless they fit their ship poorly. For record, being locked at max 30% should slowly cause cap to fail, the reason for this is simple, you don't stay at peak rate of recharge with modules cycling every few seconds. Even if only for a second or two, your rate of recharge will be below optimal. Meaning a net loss for a short period. Normally, with an unrestricted cap max, you can ignore this problem because your also gaining cap above max rate... helping to make up for the net loss when below peak. It's hard to explain without knowing more about math, but they balance out over time if you set up properly. But being capped at max, means no buffer for your cap to make up for that net loss, which will mean slow loss in cap till it eventually fails. THUS Over time, your cap WILL STILL (hopefully) fail when under heavy nos attack. So the question for setting up your ship isn't simply black and white: Can my cap last forever. But also: How long can it last if under stress? With all mods running, will your ship last 1 minute? or ten? Conversely, for the Nos user, the Nos user suddenly has to realize that those nos's returns are diminishing in nature... For the first 70% of the opponents cap, it's all gravy. But at 30%, the ship your sucking from is no longer losing as much cap, and your not gaining as much, meaning if your setup relies entirely on the nosses to sustain your own power needs, your going to start shutting down sooner or later instead. Enter the Neut: One minor fear I have is this will cause players to just fit neuts with low power consumption setups instead, but I personally feels these are more balanced for both the attacker and defender, because it hurts both players somewhat. What could happen however, is we start seeing ships with a mix of nos/neuts. Noses get you down to 30% with no cost to nos user, neuts shut you down soon after with a few cycles... On the bright side, the nos/neut user might still have issues sustaining those neuts, so any shutdown the defender suffers would be only for as long as the attacker could sustain their own cap without the needed nos injection with all other needed modules running. Overal I like the idea, it's not 100% perfect, but it adds a little risk and restriction to nos use and also allows smaller ships to keep functioning when under nos attack... Which is really all it needed overal. Does it hurt nos setup ships? Yes and it should, but some ships (such as those clearly designed to be vampires) should get something to make up for the nerf in some way... maybe have the nerf not effect them, or effect them less (allowing them to bring a ships cap down to 10% instead of 30% for example). Or lower the cap consumption of neuts for these specialized ships so they can use them in tandem for best effect. Heres to hoping. ******************************************* "Stars Die... Empires fall... We are dust..." *******************************************
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.17 23:48:00 - [18] Everyone needs to listen to the last live dev blog again, they said that they are leaning towards making the nos only effective if you have less cap % than the target. Oh and the nice guys at CCP have done a transcript of the live dev blog #3 so here is what they said. Exactly. Quote: Will there be any changes to Nos? Which means Nosferatu. The answer to that is no, no changes will be coming in Revelations 2. Because we did not have enough time or people in the balancing team. For this release, everything we have done and we have been doing has been done in record time, and Nozh and Fendahl are both very new to the team, and have only been here for 1 and 2 months. But Fendahl has been working a lot of ideas, and I would like Fendahlàcan you share some of your ideas with the community? Fendahl: Yes. So, one idea is that you could sort of base it on the percentage charge of your opponent and also on your same charge level. So for example, if you have charged your capacitor to 30%, you wonÆt be able to drain the enemy lower than 30% and that would sort of balance the Nosferatu to not act like an energy neutralizer, but still allow you to sort of leech cap off the enemy. So thatÆs one implementation weÆre considering. There are a number of others, including signature-radius based changes, but I think the one I mentioned is probably the best one we have, for now.
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.06.18 00:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Drazhar Kain Even if NOS only goes to 30%, neuts will almost definately remained unchanged... so a Nos/Neut BS would still be able to kill a cap's cap. But the way a nos/neut BS works is by using the nos to feed the neuts, if the cap hits 30% you will cap out near instantly since the neuts are taking your cap and your nos has stopped being useful. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
Dalanoria The Committee of Project Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.18 00:39:00 - [20] Edited by: Dalanoria on 18/06/2007 00:48:52 If it boils down to 30% cap you will see perma tanked Domis and Myrm everywhere you go... Just fit a rack of cpr II's and they will never run out of cap...A Domi with duel rep and 75% resist is going to tank like a small fleet... Theoreticly a Hyperion could be unkillable 1vs1, more so then any drake ever thought possible..Just fit a MWD and the rest cpr II's.
Drazin DawnTreader The Elear	Posted - 2007.06.18 00:50:00 - [21] Get the 30% out of your head. He just used it as an Example. Like: If my Capacitor is at 50%, then my NoS wont drain your Capacitor lower than 50%. If my Cap drops to 40%... my NoS will suck yours down to 40%. Creates an Equilibrium, so one ship isn't just draining everything in site with energy being wasted. In this case the NoS works to just keep your cap balanced with your enemies. This will mean that a Battleship at 20% capacitor is going to take a frigates capacitor in a couple gulps as always. But generally not be able to drain the frigate dry like before. I would much prefer to see the Sig-Radius implementation. NoS only drains energy based on the signature of the ship its draining. So a Battleship will NoS a Frigate a little better than a frigate could NoS a frigate. Lets the Frigates actually do something before going pop because their ship shut off. And means the Almighty Battleshp Pilots will need to think and plan accordingly as they always should have. Like NoS fanatics are so fond of saying... there are counters at your disposal... use them.
Fenren	Posted - 2007.06.18 08:26:00 - [22] I dont understand how people can misinterpriate that quotation so heavilly. seems that Drazin and Nian are the only ones who doesn't... that option is the most realistic one in my opinion and i hope they will inplement it. it will change the module from an offenisve one to a defensive module. you will no longer be able to compleatly shut down your opponent with the nos this will also mean that a neut is a viable option for more than a few special ocations Originally by: CCP Greyscale Deadlines are when TomB says "get this done by such-and-such a date or I'll set you on fire".
Marcus Alkhaar Conisor Excavations Syndicate Antagonistic Assembly	Posted - 2007.06.18 08:41:00 - [23] has there been any word on boosting Neutralizers? Originally by: Tanksmann just so you you know putting "Dev" or "Tux" in the topic probably lessens the dev attention your topic receives
Starraker KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.18 09:04:00 - [24] They are saying nothing because they will remove it from the game. I sure hope not, but it would be funny. "NOS is broken, we'll remove it untill we found a good fix" And then the forums explode
n0thing omen. D-L	Posted - 2007.06.18 09:31:00 - [25] Originally by: Starraker They are saying nothing because they will remove it from the game. I sure hope not, but it would be funny. "NOS is broken, we'll remove it untill we found a good fix" And then the forums explode Might as well remove Curse/Pilgrim/Ishtar then, those ships are meant to nosf Ah and btw, they said that they arent planning changes, but prolly they could finish the job faster thus putting it in with green text meaning it was added after patch notes were written. Also, the idea of 'if your cap lower then your target then you can nosf' imo, can be easily abused. Say like I got dual-rep Nosf-Domi. Im not touching my nosfs and kicking both reps in right as fight starts. Assuming my target doesnt have dual-rep or wont put em both on, i will soon start capping out. Once my cap reaches low-amount, i kick nosfs in and restore it quickly while target goes down. If it didnt...rinse and repeat...drain your cap on purpose then quickly refill. Bigger ships that can run on very low % of cap and still boost, since 10% for BS means 100% for cruiser, thus you will still be able to dry out cruisers. ---
Tuea	Posted - 2007.06.18 09:46:00 - [26] Edited by: Tuea on 18/06/2007 09:47:08 Originally by: n0thing Originally by: Starraker They are saying nothing because they will remove it from the game. I sure hope not, but it would be funny. "NOS is broken, we'll remove it untill we found a good fix" And then the forums explode Might as well remove Curse/Pilgrim/Ishtar then, those ships are meant to nosf Ah and btw, they said that they arent planning changes, but prolly they could finish the job faster thus putting it in with green text meaning it was added after patch notes were written. Also, the idea of 'if your cap lower then your target then you can nosf' imo, can be easily abused. Say like I got dual-rep Nosf-Domi. Im not touching my nosfs and kicking both reps in right as fight starts. Assuming my target doesnt have dual-rep or wont put em both on, i will soon start capping out. Once my cap reaches low-amount, i kick nosfs in and restore it quickly while target goes down. If it didnt...rinse and repeat...drain your cap on purpose then quickly refill. Bigger ships that can run on very low % of cap and still boost, since 10% for BS means 100% for cruiser, thus you will still be able to dry out cruisers. Good point about the rep usage, although you will always reach that point of stalemate at low cap - it's not like many nos ships will be able to out damage most tanks. I guess it depends if your opponent has a perma tank or relies on cap boosters. I think you might be wrong about the cruisers - I'm pretty sure the suggestion is on % of ship cap not cap amount.
Shirow Miyazaki Amarr I.Z.U Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.18 10:05:00 - [27] Whatever happens to NOS, amarr should have some sort of bonus for it, i'm doing recon ships 5 to fly a pilgrim, and if they nerf nos to unusableness then that'll be another nail in the coffin of amarr. After all, what else are we good at?
n0thing omen. D-L	Posted - 2007.06.18 10:43:00 - [28] Originally by: Shirow Miyazaki Whatever happens to NOS, amarr should have some sort of bonus for it, i'm doing recon ships 5 to fly a pilgrim, and if they nerf nos to unusableness then that'll be another nail in the coffin of amarr. After all, what else are we good at? The nosf ships prolly wont suffer much. Think it more pointed towards making your enemy cap competly dry. Nano curses will still do fine. As for another post, I meant if % of cap is not size dependant...like 30% cap nosf limit might be low for cruiser to run stuff but good for BS. ---
Dragy Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2007.06.18 11:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/06/2007 23:07:40 Originally by: Dragy If the enemy has a permatank and you get him to 30% cap then you just need to deal more damage then he's repping or probably he won't have a permatank so just wait until his cap dies. And in both cases nos does absolutely nothing to break his tank. It assists your tank a bit, but since this all will also happen while you yourself will be most likely above 30% cap the effect is rather minimal. Cap injectors are wastly superior there. Originally by: Drazhar Kain Even if NOS only goes to 30%, neuts will almost definately remained unchanged... so a Nos/Neut BS would still be able to kill a cap's cap. It won't because it needs the nosses to sustain the neuts. Learn to more trust on a gun, missile bay than a nos
Mastin Dragonfly Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.06.18 11:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Fenren I dont understand how people can misinterpriate that quotation so heavilly. seems that Drazin and Nian are the only ones who doesn't... that option is the most realistic one in my opinion and i hope they will inplement it. it will change the module from an offenisve one to a defensive module. you will no longer be able to compleatly shut down your opponent with the nos this will also mean that a neut is a viable option for more than a few special ocations While I agree that it is a nice change in general, it makes the nos bonuses on the amarr recons and the Bhaalgorn usefullness questionable. Curse and Pilgrim depend for a big part on killing the cap of the opponent before that opponent can do enough damage to kill the Curse/Pilgrim. Being only able to keep the cap of the opponent even with your own is of really no use to those recons, it would make them considerably less dangerous. So they would either need a change to their bonus or their role as solo pwn-mobiles is pretty much over.

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