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Faction ammo needs to be stopped

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Paradox Eve	Posted - 2007.06.20 05:41:00 - [1] Faction ammo is far, far too easy to obtain now IMO. It is easy to attain and quite cheap from agents now, and the benefits it provides are absolutely huge. It gives a 15% to 25% boost to damage over regular, t1 ammo. No skill or implant even compares to such a huge boost. Unless something changes, I predict that no one other than complete noobs will be using normal ammo by the end of the month. t2 ammo also becomes much less worthwhile, in many variants. The cost or the LP requirements should be higher, I think. Anyone else feel the same? Was it really intended to give a near universal 20ish% boost to all ship damage (other than drone ships)? Who would be silly enough to continue using t1 ammo?
Jeff Anderson Advanced Security And Asset Protection	Posted - 2007.06.20 05:46:00 - [2] did you get shot at? Sig: Miners supply the ore that the Industrialists use to build the ships you PVP/E with so please think of them as your ship blows up from the enhanced PVP/E in EVE. We know CCP hasn't.
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2007.06.20 05:49:00 - [3] Nope. I just dont think faction ammo should be so readily available, given such a big benefit. shrug
Jita Alt	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:01:00 - [4] If it's that easy everyone can get it which makes it balanced
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:05:00 - [5] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 20/06/2007 06:09:05 I had a look at my agent... 3000 lp and 3 mill isk for 5000 caldari navy assault missiles is a bit low. And only 5500 lp and 5,5 mill for for the torps. We are probably going to see tons of caldari navy stuff on ships. I for one dont think its so bad. I like it. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
eve warrior Minmatar Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Jita Alt If it's that easy everyone can get it which makes it balanced Exactly. Why dont you go and buy some Faction ammo and use it too? I think its a little to early to be shouting Nurf this, Nurf that... pft eve warrior
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:09:00 - [7] And for the drone ships? And the main balance issue is with tank vs gank, not damage of ship A vs ship B.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:11:00 - [8] I frigging HATE that I have to go to work today. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:12:00 - [9] Well, as an Amarr, you should be happy that the navy ammo is a bit "easier" to obtain. Using those crystals burns 'em up faster then x-mas lights on a dodge challenger So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Captain Batou Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:40:00 - [10] AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! This is SOOOOO funny to me. I'm a noob (in case you couldn't tell) and I love watching all you older players scramble about. I have lost 15 cruisers in 21 days to guys with HUGE advantages (and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so). I love that the playing field has been leveled A LITTLE. I'll probably still get blown out of the sky on a regular basis for the next year but the fact that you'll be attacking me with a little more reservation makes me smile. Thank you CCP for frustrating all the people who have been frustrating me. I hope your Tech2-Super Beefy-Uber Titan-Star Killer goes down wheezing like the last dying fart of an old, dirty bum. May your impending death come with the cheers of a thousand angry noobs.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Captain Batou AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! This is SOOOOO funny to me. I'm a noob (in case you couldn't tell) and I love watching all you older players scramble about. I have lost 15 cruisers in 21 days to guys with HUGE advantages (and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so). I love that the playing field has been leveled A LITTLE. I'll probably still get blown out of the sky on a regular basis for the next year but the fact that you'll be attacking me with a little more reservation makes me smile. Thank you CCP for frustrating all the people who have been frustrating me. I hope your Tech2-Super Beefy-Uber Titan-Star Killer goes down wheezing like the last dying fart of an old, dirty bum. May your impending death come with the cheers of a thousand angry noobs. That's the spirit. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:51:00 - [12] Well all the crybabies whining about their ships being too hard to fit because they absolutely have to use a full rack of T2 weapons on every single ship can now replace one of their guns with T1+faction ammo for only an acceptable very small loss of damage rather than the unacceptable small loss of damage like before... Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
KISOGOKU	Posted - 2007.06.20 06:58:00 - [13] thanks for numbers jim, 3000Lp +3m isk for 5000 assault missiles =6m for 5k missiles = 1.200 isk per unit, and torpedos =2.200 isk per unit looks expensive to me, actually more expensive than t2 for per unit.
Amantus Gallente Murientor Tribe Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.06.20 07:00:00 - [14] Originally by: Captain Batou AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! This is SOOOOO funny to me. I'm a noob (in case you couldn't tell) and I love watching all you older players scramble about. I have lost 15 cruisers in 21 days to guys with HUGE advantages (and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so). I love that the playing field has been leveled A LITTLE. I'll probably still get blown out of the sky on a regular basis for the next year but the fact that you'll be attacking me with a little more reservation makes me smile. Thank you CCP for frustrating all the people who have been frustrating me. I hope your Tech2-Super Beefy-Uber Titan-Star Killer goes down wheezing like the last dying fart of an old, dirty bum. May your impending death come with the cheers of a thousand angry noobs. Fantastic attitude. Welcome to EVE ------------
tarin adur Gallente Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.06.20 07:10:00 - [15] Wow,patch has been out for 4 hours and already there's nerf this threads...shame
Captain Batou Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.20 07:27:00 - [16] Originally by: tarin adur Wow,patch has been out for 4 hours and already there's nerf this threads...shame I know, right? I think a lot of the players have forgotten that this game's main premise is the adaptation of man to hostile and foreign environments. If it was all the same, all the time, it would get boring. Even if you had a Titan and 50 trillion isk. Especially so.... Roll with the punches, adapt to a new environment, have fun, for God's sake. It's a *GAME*. It's meant to challenge you, to stimulate your mind, to evoke emotions. If you wanna whine about how it's not fair that your 4 year old character lost money and now has to compete with new ones with better weapons, then quit. It's not much different in the real world, right? Setbacks, obstacles, and challenges....It's what makes it fun and interesting to be human. So let this game be fun and intersting. Quit trying to strangle the the challenge out of it.
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.06.20 07:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Jim McGregor I frigging HATE that I have to go to work today. This
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 07:43:00 - [18] Originally by: tarin adur Wow,patch has been out for 4 hours and already there's nerf this threads...shame "guns are fine. nerf players!" --- truth about EVE: Originally by: Cpt Branko "Guns are fine, boost players"
Izo Azlion Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.20 07:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Paradox Eve Faction ammo is far, far too easy to obtain now IMO. It is easy to attain and quite cheap from agents now, and the benefits it provides are absolutely huge. It gives a 15% to 25% boost to damage over regular, t1 ammo. No skill or implant even compares to such a huge boost. Unless something changes, I predict that no one other than complete noobs will be using normal ammo by the end of the month. t2 ammo also becomes much less worthwhile, in many variants. The cost or the LP requirements should be higher, I think. Anyone else feel the same? Was it really intended to give a near universal 20ish% boost to all ship damage (other than drone ships)? Who would be silly enough to continue using t1 ammo? SHHHHHH Give us time to aquire some eh? Your whining at what everyone needs. Bullets. Izo Azlion. --- Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected]) Thanks to Stubnitz for the Sig.
Fenren	Posted - 2007.06.20 07:54:00 - [20] Originally by: Captain Batou Originally by: tarin adur Wow,patch has been out for 4 hours and already there's nerf this threads...shame I know, right? I think a lot of the players have forgotten that this game's main premise is the adaptation of man to hostile and foreign environments. If it was all the same, all the time, it would get boring. Even if you had a Titan and 50 trillion isk. Especially so.... Roll with the punches, adapt to a new environment, have fun, for God's sake. It's a *GAME. It's meant to challenge you, to stimulate your mind, to evoke emotions. If you wanna whine about how it's not fair that your 4 year old character lost money and now has to compete with new ones with better weapons, then quit. It's not much different in the real world, right? Setbacks, obstacles, and challenges....It's what makes it fun and interesting to be human. So let this game be fun and intersting. Quit trying to strangle the the challenge out of it. God, I love your attitude! Originally by:* CCP Greyscale Deadlines are when TomB says "get this done by such-and-such a date or I'll set you on fire".
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.20 07:55:00 - [21] Originally by: Paradox Eve Faction ammo is far, far too easy to obtain now IMO. It is easy to attain and quite cheap from agents now, and the benefits it provides are absolutely huge. It gives a 15% to 25% boost to damage over regular, t1 ammo. No skill or implant even compares to such a huge boost. Unless something changes, I predict that no one other than complete noobs will be using normal ammo by the end of the month. t2 ammo also becomes much less worthwhile, in many variants. The cost or the LP requirements should be higher, I think. Anyone else feel the same? Was it really intended to give a near universal 20ish% boost to all ship damage (other than drone ships)? Who would be silly enough to continue using t1 ammo? I have to thank you Good Sir for bringing to my attention the availability of faction ammunition in the newly added lp store. I have now promptly spend my spare 16000 lp and a bit of isk to buy myself a good chunk of ammunition and will gladly use them till my hearts content, in fact the price is so low. Maybe people will use it in missions. Now thats a thought...
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.20 08:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Paradox Eve Anyone else feel the same? Banana looks at her faction ammo equipped ships and says, no I like it the way it is. I have already got the faction ships and the good faction stuff. So I like it that I have something that I can spend my LPs on that I just don't sell on to inflate my already overinflated wallet. Keep it this way.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.20 08:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Well all the crybabies whining about their ships being too hard to fit because they absolutely have to use a full rack of T2 weapons on every single ship can now replace one of their guns with T1+faction ammo for only an acceptable very small loss of damage rather than the unacceptable small loss of damage like before... Uh, no. Now the minimum requirement has been stepped up to full T2 rack of guns and all faction ammo, all the time. Which is why I have 90K rounds of Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L. BUYING ZAINOU 'DEADEYE' ZGL1000 IMPLANTS, PAYING TOP DOLLAR, CONVO/MAIL IN-GAME
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.20 08:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Paradox Eve Faction ammo is far, far too easy to obtain now IMO. It is easy to attain and quite cheap from agents now, and the benefits it provides are absolutely huge. It gives a 15% to 25% boost to damage over regular, t1 ammo. No skill or implant even compares to such a huge boost. Unless something changes, I predict that no one other than complete noobs will be using normal ammo by the end of the month. t2 ammo also becomes much less worthwhile, in many variants. The cost or the LP requirements should be higher, I think. Anyone else feel the same? Was it really intended to give a near universal 20ish% boost to all ship damage (other than drone ships)? Who would be silly enough to continue using t1 ammo? I made a post about this about two months ago in the game development forum. Go look it up. You're a little late to the party. BUYING ZAINOU 'DEADEYE' ZGL1000 IMPLANTS, PAYING TOP DOLLAR, CONVO/MAIL IN-GAME
Ulii	Posted - 2007.06.20 08:32:00 - [25] Originally by: murder one Originally by: Paradox Eve Faction ammo is far, far too easy to obtain now IMO. It is easy to attain and quite cheap from agents now, and the benefits it provides are absolutely huge. It gives a 15% to 25% boost to damage over regular, t1 ammo. No skill or implant even compares to such a huge boost. Unless something changes, I predict that no one other than complete noobs will be using normal ammo by the end of the month. t2 ammo also becomes much less worthwhile, in many variants. The cost or the LP requirements should be higher, I think. Anyone else feel the same? Was it really intended to give a near universal 20ish% boost to all ship damage (other than drone ships)? Who would be silly enough to continue using t1 ammo? I made a post about this about two months ago in the game development forum. Go look it up. You're a little late to the party. you might want to change the text under your sig... dollars and eve stuff dont match... think devs will get angry
Actanna Levh Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.06.20 08:33:00 - [26] Huzzah ! I love faction ammo but can hardly ever find it. What I do find is usually poorly matched to what I need it for. Such as carbonised leadà and shooting most things. The only apparent problem is that I thought my agent wh**ing days were behind me. Perhaps no longer
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2007.06.20 08:55:00 - [27] Originally by: murder one Uh, no. Now the minimum requirement has been stepped up to full T2 rack of guns and all faction ammo, all the time. Which is why I have 90K rounds of Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L. Why ? A full rack of best named and faction ammo gives very close to the same DPS as the T2 and faction you give as a minimum - skill spec differences only I think. In return for this you get cpu and pg to spend on other things - like tanking. In addition newer players get to be moderately competitive earlier.
Alrich	Posted - 2007.06.20 08:56:00 - [28] skill only is 10%... that IS quite a lot... but i like the change
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:11:00 - [29] Maybe interesting to check what range/damage a Rokh can do with T1 guns, Caldari BS 5 and the best faction ammo. Could be pretty decent if it could be fitted without RCUs in the lows. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Cyclops43	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:12:00 - [30] Originally by: Pink Teletubby Well, its a pitty for those that used to produce t1 ammo... well such is life To get 5000 faction ammo, you need to pay ISK + LP + 5000 T1 ammo. No need to cry for T1 producers
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Pink Teletubby Well, its a pitty for those that used to produce t1 ammo... well such is life The LP store requires 5000 rounds of the respective T1 ammo type as well as LPs for the faction ammo, so for each shot of faction ammo, 1 shot of T1 ammo is required. ;-) this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
Lilian Long	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:21:00 - [32] The faction ammo that you get from the LP store has only a 15% advantage over normal ammo, at least for empire factions. I guess with pirate factions it's the same, you will get the lower faction ammo at the LP store like Archangel EMP L, but something like Domination EMP L with its 25% bonus is officer-drop, so it stays quite rare.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:23:00 - [33] Originally by: Pan Crastus Originally by: Pink Teletubby Well, its a pitty for those that used to produce t1 ammo... well such is life The LP store requires 5000 rounds of the respective T1 ammo type as well as LPs for the faction ammo, so for each shot of faction ammo, 1 shot of T1 ammo is required. ;-) What become useless is T2 ammunitions, unless the drawbacks are heavily reduced. Especially the larger size as increase in cost for the faction ammo for the increase in size is very moderate.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Alrich skill only is 10%... that IS quite a lot... but i like the change As you say t2 with max spec skills and faction ammo will give 10% better DPS. So you have a nice trade off to consider given the easier fitting requirements of named over t2 guns. Do I want that 10% extra DPS or do I want extra cpu/grid to spend on tanking, can I fit larger t1 named guns that I can t2 ? As far as I see it the easier availability of faction ammo just increases player choice which is always a good thing. It also allows new players to be more competitive earlier in their careers, again a positive step. Selfish, very experienced players will see this as a problem is it cuts the level of edge that get over their less expeienced counterparts - but frankly they shouldnt need it. Gane experience and better alround skills should be enough. T2 ammo producers won't like the fall in demand, but they have had plenty of time to amke a fortune so again I don't see a problem. Navy ammo is: 1) Available to everyone 2) Useable by everyone As you say - a good change
Jurgen Cartis	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:51:00 - [35] Short range T2 ammo just got kinda screwed. Long range T2 ammo will be fine. Navy Antimatter/EMP/Multifreq does almost as much damage as the short range ammo with no penalties (except greater expense), but faction Iron/Radio/Carbonized Lead cannot compete with Spike and Barrage and Conflagration for range or damage. Base T1 ammo will remain standard in missions, of course. NPC rats that give 30000 isk in bounty aren't worth hurling missiles worth 2500 a shot at. Now, the BS rats might be another story, but so long as you can down em with regular missiles I see no reason to waste expensive high end navy ammo on em. In PvP however. . . Navy Antimatter will be standard issue.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:53:00 - [36] Originally by: Pink Teletubby Well, its a pitty for those that used to produce t1 ammo... well such is life Not true, you must cash in LP, ISK and 1:1 of the t1 ammo of that type. This is good for ammo sellers as they will get a quick surge in sales as people cash in for their new faction ammo.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.20 09:59:00 - [37] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Short range T2 ammo just got kinda screwed. Long range T2 ammo will be fine. Navy Antimatter/EMP/Multifreq does almost as much damage as the short range ammo with no penalties (except greater expense), but faction Iron/Radio/Carbonized Lead cannot compete with Spike and Barrage and Conflagration for range or damage. Base T1 ammo will remain standard in missions, of course. NPC rats that give 30000 isk in bounty aren't worth hurling missiles worth 2500 a shot at. Now, the BS rats might be another story, but so long as you can down em with regular missiles I see no reason to waste expensive high end navy ammo on em. In PvP however. . . Navy Antimatter will be standard issue. Actually Autocannon users will still be forced to use T2 ammunition as Barrage gives a +50% to falloff but there is no T1 ammunition that increases falloff, only optimal. So for Projectile users, only those who use Arties will find it useful.
Rafein	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:02:00 - [38] Originally by: Pink Teletubby Well, its a pitty for those that used to produce t1 ammo... well such is life Not really. You need an equal amount of T1 ammo in the offer to get Faction ammo. 5k Wrath Cruise Missiles, +LP and isk, turns into 5k Caldari Navy Wrath Cruise Missiles.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:24:00 - [39] Lol a whole page of people telling the guy that t1 ammo producers arn't getting a raw deal ;)
Ulii	Posted - 2007.06.20 10:34:00 - [40] Originally by: Nian Banks Lol a whole page of people telling the guy that t1 ammo producers arn't getting a raw deal ;) ßlmoust like the fighter-thread... they will still sell ammo to the ones changing it in for faction ammo
Jennai Leonard J. Crabs Legal Consortium	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Luke Pubcrawler T2 ammo producers won't like the fall in demand, but they have had plenty of time to amke a fortune so again I don't see a problem. make a fortune on T2 ammo? hahahahaha it already built faster than it sold (which is impressive considering the buildtimes on it) and had crap profits due to slow building and slower sales. I have two ammos and both of them combined make less money than a single BS bpo. on the up side, the addition of T2 ammo invention is unlikely to have any effect on the market because no one's going to bother inventing ammo when the module market is so much better.
Edenn	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:10:00 - [42] Originally by: Jita Alt If it's that easy everyone can get it which makes it balanced Very true! /agreed
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:16:00 - [43] It's actually a boost to T1 ammo producers, as the drop in demand in T2 ammo will be countered by increased demand for T1, for exchanging for faction.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:26:00 - [44] Originally by: Ulii Originally by: Nian Banks Lol a whole page of people telling the guy that t1 ammo producers arn't getting a raw deal ;) ßlmoust like the fighter-thread... they will still sell ammo to the ones changing it in for faction ammo Well glad I have almost all t1 projectile ammo bpo's researched to 1000me and 1000pe ;P
Bizz Lizz	Posted - 2007.06.20 11:27:00 - [45] Originally by: Jennai Originally by: Luke Pubcrawler T2 ammo producers won't like the fall in demand, but they have had plenty of time to amke a fortune so again I don't see a problem. make a fortune on T2 ammo? hahahahaha it already built faster than it sold (which is impressive considering the buildtimes on it) and had crap profits due to slow building and slower sales. I have two ammos and both of them combined make less money than a single BS bpo. on the up side, the addition of T2 ammo invention is unlikely to have any effect on the market because no one's going to bother inventing ammo when the module market is so much better. I was at least earning a bit with Barrage M. In the end around 300mil/month. Since people usually only need a few thousand shot for pvp, the price of 830isk/shot didn't really hurt anyone I think. When one of my ships for 20 to 300 mil isk dies, it usually happens before I have wasted 5% of it's value in ammo. Now that BPO can be added to the pool of nearly worthless BPOs, but the reason is not faction ammo, but ammo invention. Grrr.
E'lucid	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:24:00 - [46] it's not really any more powerfull than t2 you just don't need as many skills to use it, i guess it just gives new players the oppertunity to experience something a little better a littele earlier for their efforts in missions, not biggy imo
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:32:00 - [47] Originally by: E'lucid it's not really any more powerfull than t2 you just don't need as many skills to use it, i guess it just gives new players the oppertunity to experience something a little better a littele earlier for their efforts in missions, not biggy imo Oh realy? So tell me, where in the patch notes does it mention T2 Projectile ammunition that does EM damage?
Spawinte Gallente The Templars Knights	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:38:00 - [48] Faction ammo was hard to come by before and now its not. All is well with the world. Stop complaining.
Black Scorpio	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:42:00 - [49] Edited by: Black Scorpio on 20/06/2007 17:41:51 Originally by: Paradox Eve And for the drone ships? And the main balance issue is with tank vs gank, not damage of ship A vs ship B. ooo here we go.. uuuhh mommy and for the drone shiiippps, .. you're lucky NOS is not nerfed! stop whining!
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:49:00 - [50] I knew if I said my prayers every night, ate my vegetables, fed the dog regularly, and told the wife/kids that I loved them everyday that god would reward me with Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L so that I may kill people.
Cheunger BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:53:00 - [51] Originally by: Paradox Eve Nope. I just dont think faction ammo should be so readily available, given such a big benefit. shrug Why not? Faction loot is readily available.
Jainyer Naughty 40	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:54:00 - [52] extra dimension to pvp....persoanlly don't see the problem, easier to come by then easier to fit in my guns
Futureface01 Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.06.20 17:59:00 - [53] If'n you are a zillionare and dont even look at the price when you buy something, the faction ammo change looks like a handout. If'n you are everybody else, you need to do a little math, and seperate PVP from PVE. For PVP, sure you'll spend the bucks and fire faction ammo. For PVE, you'll see that you must pay 840isk to 'upgrade' each cruise missile to the faction version. Thats not even counting the loyalty point cost of 4000ish. So lets say you get lucky and draw an 'extravaganza' mission.... You fire off 3000 cruise missiles. You spend an additional 2.5m isk over your normal ammo cost. Cutting about 10 to 15 percent off your ISK profit and cuts your LP profit by 40 to 50 percent. If you use faction ammo, you can clear the mission faster but you do lose a lot of your profit for doing so.
milinkoee Bastage Incorporated	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:08:00 - [54] Originally by: Jeff Anderson did you get shot at? More likely he owns a t2 ammo BPO ;-) Bastage, Inc. Worst Pirates Ever!!!
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:15:00 - [55] Originally by: Death Merchant I knew if I said my prayers every night, ate my vegetables, fed the dog regularly, and told the wife/kids that I loved them everyday that god would reward me with Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L so that I may kill people.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:20:00 - [56] Originally by: Pink Teletubby Well, its a pitty for those that used to produce t1 ammo... well such is life Like hell it is. You need T1 standard ammo to do the conversion. I was looking at the Caldari Navy Large Antimatter rounds like a hungry baby staring at Pam Anderson...
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:33:00 - [57] Well, from the other hand it does make T2 rage obsolete. The difference in damage only 5% BUT have no stupid drawbacks of rage(fury) missiles. Not that i would like them to nerf faction ammo, just boost T2 high damage missiles!!!
Arcangel777 Caldari Venture X	Posted - 2007.06.20 18:58:00 - [58] Is this the biggest whine thread ever? Grow some dude, Rage torps are now out damaged by the caldari navy torps. and they are really easy to obtain. HOW coudl this be bad? are you a noob? shoudl we whine loud enough to get faction mining crystals? go use some faction ammo rather that whine about it, jeez whata waste of a thread
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Vigilance Infinitas	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:10:00 - [59] Originally by: Ulii Originally by: murder one Originally by: Paradox Eve Faction ammo is far, far too easy to obtain now IMO. It is easy to attain and quite cheap from agents now, and the benefits it provides are absolutely huge. It gives a 15% to 25% boost to damage over regular, t1 ammo. No skill or implant even compares to such a huge boost. Unless something changes, I predict that no one other than complete noobs will be using normal ammo by the end of the month. t2 ammo also becomes much less worthwhile, in many variants. The cost or the LP requirements should be higher, I think. Anyone else feel the same? Was it really intended to give a near universal 20ish% boost to all ship damage (other than drone ships)? Who would be silly enough to continue using t1 ammo? I made a post about this about two months ago in the game development forum. Go look it up. You're a little late to the party. you might want to change the text under your sig... dollars and eve stuff dont match... think devs will get angry good point. Thanx BUYING ZAINOU 'DEADEYE' ZGL1000 IMPLANTS, PAYING WELL, CONVO/MAIL IN-GAME
Kolwrath	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:21:00 - [60] Edited by: Kolwrath on 20/06/2007 19:21:06 To the OP: Nope dont feel the same at all. Everyone can use Faction ammo now, from the 1 day old newbie to the 4 year vet. So due to that sole factor alone, its balanced. Also Faction ammo is not cheap. Its actually pretty expensive. On the surface yeah it looks like a bargain, but for those of us who run missions and go through 1000-2000 rounds in an hour, faction ammo is NOT a good option. It cuts into profits way too much. In Pvp it will become the defacto ammo for non T2 guns ... which will give non vets a decent chance against the T2 fitting BBQ mobiles that vets fly. Simply put I dont think your argument holds any weight. To me you are saying "faction ammo, although its accessible to everyone, which really means its balanced across the board, is over powered even though it isent, and must be nerfed". ....
Angry Lo	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:23:00 - [61] Originally by: Arcangel777 Rage torps are now out damaged by the caldari navy torps. and they are really easy to obtain. HOW coudl this be bad? So what is the point of Rage torps then? Note Rages still outdamage Navy torps when you slap 2 TP by 5% (i'm PVPing in Raven ) But no one in sane mind will fit Rages when you can use Navies. I do think there should be something changed in faction ammos to make them worthwhile. For Crusies, Navies outperform Furies and do almost like Precisions for smaller targets. So in fact they make all t2 cruises obsolete.
Kolwrath	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:26:00 - [62] Originally by: Gypsio III It's actually a boost to T1 ammo producers, as the drop in demand in T2 ammo will be countered by increased demand for T1, for exchanging for faction. Wow good point.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:26:00 - [63] Originally by: Kolwrath Edited by: Kolwrath on 20/06/2007 19:21:06 On the surface yeah it looks like a bargain, but for those of us who run missions and go through 1000-2000 rounds in an hour, faction ammo is NOT a good option. It cuts into profits way too much. OK, it's fairly easy to get 30mil per hour in good lvl4 spot. So even if faction ammo will reduce time to complete mission by 10% it's still a bonus comparing to non using them.
Kolwrath	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:36:00 - [64] Edited by: Kolwrath on 20/06/2007 19:36:39 Originally by: Zar Dim Originally by: Kolwrath Edited by: Kolwrath on 20/06/2007 19:21:06 On the surface yeah it looks like a bargain, but for those of us who run missions and go through 1000-2000 rounds in an hour, faction ammo is NOT a good option. It cuts into profits way too much. OK, it's fairly easy to get 30mil per hour in good lvl4 spot. So even if faction ammo will reduce time to complete mission by 10% it's still a bonus comparing to non using them. Yeah ... a bonus at a price. One of the earlier posters figured it would cost an extra 2.5 mill per run of angel extra. So by using faction ammo I am getting a roughly 10% boost in DPS for a rough 10% loss in profits. (yeah its bad math ... but eventually sombody will post a profit vs bonus FAQ for faction ammo and then we will have some hard data on the profitability / usefullness of faction ammo. Until then I think the whinning should be toned down. We dont know what the effect of faction ammo is going to be yet. Its not een 24 hours into it yet. Give it 6 months and then we will know what kind of effect it will have) Really I think we need to wait and see how it plays out. I dont think faction is going to be uber like people think. Once the price for it stabalises on the market I think we will see it get used in non-vet PVP and thats about it. The stuff is just too expensive when you look at it on a large scale.
Keira Fordring Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.06.20 19:45:00 - [65] Originally by: Pink Teletubby Well, its a pitty for those that used to produce t1 ammo... well such is life Not really. All the faction ammo I looked at had a requirement of LP, ISK and the same quantity of T1 ammo. For example to buy 5000 CN Pirhana Light Missles it also cost 5000 regular Pirhana Light Missles. IMO the faction ammo isn't all that great for the hassle of having to gain LP to buy. None of what I looked at offered anything except a few extra points in damage. Missles at least didn't improve velocity or flight time.
Arvald Caldari The Last Prophecy	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:17:00 - [66] Originally by: Captain Batou Originally by: tarin adur Wow,patch has been out for 4 hours and already there's nerf this threads...shame I know, right? I think a lot of the players have forgotten that this game's main premise is the adaptation of man to hostile and foreign environments. If it was all the same, all the time, it would get boring. Even if you had a Titan and 50 trillion isk. Especially so.... Roll with the punches, adapt to a new environment, have fun, for God's sake. It's a *GAME*. It's meant to challenge you, to stimulate your mind, to evoke emotions. If you wanna whine about how it's not fair that your 4 year old character lost money and now has to compete with new ones with better weapons, then quit. It's not much different in the real world, right? Setbacks, obstacles, and challenges....It's what makes it fun and interesting to be human. So let this game be fun and intersting. Quit trying to strangle the the challenge out of it. dude.....i want you in my corp....now ===============================================
Rooker Lysian Enterprises United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:23:00 - [67] Originally by: Captain Batou AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! This is SOOOOO funny to me. I'm a noob (in case you couldn't tell) and I love watching all you older players scramble about. I have lost 15 cruisers in 21 days to guys with HUGE advantages (and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so). I love that the playing field has been leveled A LITTLE. I'll probably still get blown out of the sky on a regular basis for the next year but the fact that you'll be attacking me with a little more reservation makes me smile. Thank you CCP for frustrating all the people who have been frustrating me. I hope your Tech2-Super Beefy-Uber Titan-Star Killer goes down wheezing like the last dying fart of an old, dirty bum. May your impending death come with the cheers of a thousand angry noobs. LOL.... This one wins the thread -- SAVE EANM FROM THE NERFBAT!
Lordius Karaith	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:26:00 - [68] Originally by: Captain Batou AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! This is SOOOOO funny to me. I'm a noob (in case you couldn't tell) and I love watching all you older players scramble about. I have lost 15 cruisers in 21 days to guys with HUGE advantages (and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so). I love that the playing field has been leveled A LITTLE. I'll probably still get blown out of the sky on a regular basis for the next year but the fact that you'll be attacking me with a little more reservation makes me smile. Thank you CCP for frustrating all the people who have been frustrating me. I hope your Tech2-Super Beefy-Uber Titan-Star Killer goes down wheezing like the last dying fart of an old, dirty bum. May your impending death come with the cheers of a thousand angry noobs. I think this guy just won the thread. Kudos. \o/
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:31:00 - [69] Originally by: Arcangel777 Is this the biggest whine thread ever? Grow some dude, Rage torps are now out damaged by the caldari navy torps. and they are really easy to obtain. HOW coudl this be bad? What he said, t2 rage missiles BLOW, HARD. Especially the torps. Now there's a better alternative, what's the problem? That faction ammo "should" be rare for imaginary reasons? Whatever.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:37:00 - [70] Originally by: Incantare Originally by: Arcangel777 Is this the biggest whine thread ever? Grow some dude, Rage torps are now out damaged by the caldari navy torps. and they are really easy to obtain. HOW coudl this be bad? What he said, t2 rage missiles BLOW, HARD. Especially the torps. Now there's a better alternative, what's the problem? That faction ammo "should" be rare for imaginary reasons? Whatever. The problem is why to use rages. I'm not trying to nerf, i'm pro t2 ammo boost actually. But right now there is absolutly no situation when it's better to use rages instead of faction torps.
Rooker Lysian Enterprises United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:38:00 - [71] Heavy Neutron II + Navy AM M = hawt sex <3 I agree it is a little too cheap, but ... ummm..... wait til I've got a few hundred thousand rounds of Navy AM L and M before adjusting anything I absolutely love it though. Somebody, intentionally or not, just circumvented Tuxford's unwanted and highly unpopular nerf of T2 ammo of last year. Void just went the way of the defender missile and Javelin. Spike and Null will still be useful though, because even faction Iron can't touch it for range. -- SAVE EANM FROM THE NERFBAT!
Exlegion KnightRaven Research KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:47:00 - [72] Rage torpedoes are for extremely large targets (very situational). Think POS and capital ships. Faction torpedoes in no way make them obsolete. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Pink Teletubby	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:57:00 - [73] Ok didnt know you needed T1 ammo Do I win anything for being the most ignorant and most replyed to poster in this thread?
Pink Teletubby	Posted - 2007.06.20 20:57:00 - [74] Ok didnt know you needed T1 ammo Do I win anything for being the most ignorant and most replyed to poster in this thread?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Exlegion Rage torpedoes are for extremely large targets (very situational). Think POS and capital ships. Faction torpedoes in no way make them obsolete. Rage torps were made useless in Rev 1, not in Rev 2. They should give them back their old 50% damage bonus and 1000m sig, then they at least have a role again. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:02:00 - [76] Originally by: Exlegion Rage torpedoes are for extremely large targets (very situational). Think POS and capital ships. Faction torpedoes in no way make them obsolete. Rage torps were made useless in Rev 1, not in Rev 2. They should give them back their old 50% damage bonus and 1000m sig, then they at least have a role again. Thank you SkyFlyer! There is no 'n' in tur
Hanse Davion Gallente Jane's Clone Emporium	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:04:00 - [77] Originally by: Captain Batou AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! This is SOOOOO funny to me. I'm a noob (in case you couldn't tell) and I love watching all you older players scramble about. I have lost 15 cruisers in 21 days to guys with HUGE advantages (and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so). I love that the playing field has been leveled A LITTLE. I'll probably still get blown out of the sky on a regular basis for the next year but the fact that you'll be attacking me with a little more reservation makes me smile. Thank you CCP for frustrating all the people who have been frustrating me. I hope your Tech2-Super Beefy-Uber Titan-Star Killer goes down wheezing like the last dying fart of an old, dirty bum. May your impending death come with the cheers of a thousand angry noobs. ROFLMAO Welcome to Eve, you will do well here!! If you looking for corp to join hit me up in game we need fresh blood like you. 2005.01.21 05:09:06combatYour Tachyon Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Blood Priest, wrecking for 533.1 damage.
Hanse Davion Gallente Jane's Clone Emporium	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:04:00 - [78] Originally by: Captain Batou AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! This is SOOOOO funny to me. I'm a noob (in case you couldn't tell) and I love watching all you older players scramble about. I have lost 15 cruisers in 21 days to guys with HUGE advantages (and will, in all likelihood, continue to do so). I love that the playing field has been leveled A LITTLE. I'll probably still get blown out of the sky on a regular basis for the next year but the fact that you'll be attacking me with a little more reservation makes me smile. Thank you CCP for frustrating all the people who have been frustrating me. I hope your Tech2-Super Beefy-Uber Titan-Star Killer goes down wheezing like the last dying fart of an old, dirty bum. May your impending death come with the cheers of a thousand angry noobs. ROFLMAO Welcome to Eve, you will do well here!! If you looking for corp to join hit me up in game we need fresh blood like you. 2005.01.21 05:09:06combatYour Tachyon Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Blood Priest, wrecking for 533.1 damage.
Kiyano Caldari Pilots Of Honour	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:06:00 - [79] Originally by: Captain Batou Originally by: tarin adur Wow,patch has been out for 4 hours and already there's nerf this threads...shame I know, right? I think a lot of the players have forgotten that this game's main premise is the adaptation of man to hostile and foreign environments. If it was all the same, all the time, it would get boring. Even if you had a Titan and 50 trillion isk. Especially so.... Roll with the punches, adapt to a new environment, have fun, for God's sake. It's a *GAME*. It's meant to challenge you, to stimulate your mind, to evoke emotions. If you wanna whine about how it's not fair that your 4 year old character lost money and now has to compete with new ones with better weapons, then quit. It's not much different in the real world, right? Setbacks, obstacles, and challenges....It's what makes it fun and interesting to be human. So let this game be fun and intersting. Quit trying to strangle the the challenge out of it. A refreshing view you have there heh, nice one
Exlegion KnightRaven Research KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.20 21:07:00 - [80] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Exlegion Rage torpedoes are for extremely large targets (very situational). Think POS and capital ships. Faction torpedoes in no way make them obsolete. Rage torps were made useless in Rev 1, not in Rev 2. They should give them back their old 50% damage bonus and 1000m sig, then they at least have a role again. Hey, I agree. Both T2 torp versions are useless. But that's a different story for a different day. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:25:00 - [81] Most of you have just posted pointless flames. Yeah, yeah, I know, everybody wants to have faction stuff and huge damage so they can sit around in thier underwear telling themselves how uber their ships are, but you guys completely miss the point. And with no reasonable argument of any kind, you really shouldn't be posting in this thread. ---------------------------- As for the actual arguments: This move is not balanced simply because everyone can use the ammo. It is an indirect nerf to all drone ships, all "tanking" ships, a fair amount of t2 ammo, POSes, capital ships, and NPCs. I think the implications fo the move are far wider than most of you give it credit for. I can't speak for the profit changes in mission running for any race other than Gallente running lev 4 missions (as that is all I have done the math on). Using a rail Megathron, I use about an average of 2000 anitmatter (regular) ammo per "long", highest LP missions- at a cost of around 110 isk per unit. 5000 navy anitmatter costs 2.4 mil, plus 110isk x the 5000 needed for offer = 3 mil isk for 5000 or about 1.2 mil isk for 2000. But with a boost of 18% damage (15% for the ammo, with the multiplicative effects of skills boosting it higher), I fire 18% fewer shots: 1.2 mil - (1.2 x .18) = 970k isk. But I was already spending 2000 ammo at 110 isk per shot, so we can subtract that out: 970k - 220k = 750k isk. But Ill also be getting the mission rewards 18% faster, at a rate of about 2.25 mil per mission: 750k - (2.25mil x .18) = 345k isk. The cut into my profits is only 345k isk per mission, which is WELL WORTH the nearly 20% gain to LPs per hour. So much for the "too expensive for missioning" argument.
Alpine 69 Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.20 22:39:00 - [82] Originally by: Jim McGregor I frigging HATE that I have to go to work today. I actually forgot to go to work today Sweet love for the ones that mod my sig <3
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.06.21 00:13:00 - [83] i think hes just scared as he probably had a few t2 ammo bpos. i personally wont use faction ammo much. well at least not much until i get my navy raven and +5 set :D
Paradox Eve	Posted - 2007.06.21 20:48:00 - [84] What, you mean all you guys can do is post flames? No one can actually hold a meaningful argument/conversation about this? Pathetic...
Xilimyth Derlin Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.06.22 00:09:00 - [85] I could post a reasonable argument. However, I look at it as a standpoint for Tech1 producers to work on a near-tech2 level. If a Tech 1 industrialist builds ammo, converts it to faction and sells it at Tech 2 levels, that more choice. There's some negatives in there somewhere, but I can't really find as many. It just gives flexibility to the system as a whole no matter how I try to cut it. ---- BEGIN SIGNATURE ---- Currently looking for a Corp. See my Bio in game for a resume and contact me if you feel my goals are in line ^^. ---- END SIGNATURE ----

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