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Pinstar
Gallente
White Knight's Mining Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.10 21:21:00 -
[1]
I'm new to PVP in EVE. From what I've read on the boards, PVP requires some highly specialized equipment, and even more specialized tactics.
Some of this equipment seems quite pricy. T2 modules, named officer weaponry and rare rigs aplenty. The nature of PVP is that more often than not, sombody is going to lose a ship.
That got me thinking: What IS the goal of PVP? To me it seems to make the other guy lose as much stuff as possible, while losing as little yourself (or even gaining some when you loot their ship).
That said, wouldn't it be a good idea to PVP in ultra-cheap 'disposable' ships, rather than T2 ships packed with rigs?
If my ship costs (ship, ammo, modules and rigs) only 10M to buy and your ship costs 100M and you kill me 5 times and I only kill you once, wouldn't you say I've 'won'.
Could I get some advice from PVP vets on this topic?
1. Would a T1 ship ever be able to beat a T2 ship of a similar class, given the variable conditions two PVPers might meet.
2. Is there some greater gain in PVP (other than pride) that would warrent going around in a pricy ship, despite the risks of losing it?
Know well the golden rule: Those that have the gold make the rules.
War does not decide who is right, only who is left.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.07.10 21:25:00 -
[2]
Join Goonfleet
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NoNah
Marzipan Monkeys
Distant Star Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.10 21:26:00 -
[3]
There are a few alliance around that fit their ships well, and bring as many ships as they can fit to combat. Some produce it, bob might be a decent representative here even if there are quite a few better "elite" alliances, naturally smaller.
Then theres goons. Goons brings as many ships as they can to combat. Say what your 3 hours old? Well dont worry, you start in a ship, come join us! If the ship ahead of you explodes, grab its wreck, fit its guns and keep fighting.
EVE is all about getting the edge.
Will a t1 fitted ship beat an equally good pilot flying a t2 ship? No.
Will two cheap t1 ships beat a t2 ship? Not unlikely.
Will a swarm of t1 ships beat a gang of t2? Occasionally.
Some pvp to gain isk - usually pirates. In this case you can simply choose your targets, kill haulers, ratters and miners. No losses is better than low losses. If that 5 billion officer module will keep you alive for ever, its actually free in a sense.
Others pvp for territory, or for fun, in which case disposable ships can certainly be considered.
*snip* Your signature was not EVE related. Contact [email protected] if you want to know more. (Include a link to your signature) -Wachtmeister
Post count: 751807
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Foulis
Minmatar
Chosen Path
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.10 21:33:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: NoNah
Will two cheap t1 ships beat a t2 ship? Not unlikely.
Fairely unlikely. 2 t1 ships of the same hull class will not beat a t2 ship of their hull class.
Example: I beat a well fitted and well flown griffin and rifter in my jaguar, despite being jammed for a good minute or two of the fight.
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Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari
NO WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARE SPELLED WITH THE NUMBER "8" IN THEM GODDAMNIT!
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NoNah
Marzipan Monkeys
Distant Star Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.10 21:41:00 -
[5]
Shouldve added "fitted" to every t1 and t2 there really. =)
Even if there are occasions where 2 tech 1 ships will beat the tech 2 version of it, what I meant was 2 tech 1 ships with tech 1 fittings, encountering a tech 1 ship with tech 2 fitting.
*snip* Your signature was not EVE related. Contact [email protected] if you want to know more. (Include a link to your signature) -Wachtmeister
Post count: 496369
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Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.10 21:41:00 -
[6]
They say 'fly only what you can afford to lose'.
The reality is more like: 'fly what you can afford, and then don't lose it!'
That said, I mostly fly T1 cruisers with complete T1 fit for PvP. They cost me 1-2mil isk after insurance if I lose them. Which in turn means that I'm quite willing to risk them in a fight that favors my opponent(s), since I'm not that scared of losing it. Sure, it gets me more losses, but more importantly, it gets me more (and exciting) fights. Better to have had four fights, lost three and won one than getting no fights at all IMO.
Only problem the remains it that some people that see my engage them in an undergunned ship think I have better odds because otherwise I wouldn't engage, so I must have allies waiting in the wings or something like that even when it's not the case...
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The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Manaswa
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Posted - 2007.07.10 21:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Pinstar
Could I get some advice from PVP vets on this topic?
1. Would a T1 ship ever be able to beat a T2 ship of a similar class, given the variable conditions two PVPers might meet.
2. Is there some greater gain in PVP (other than pride) that would warrent going around in a pricy ship, despite the risks of losing it?
1. The answer is yes. A T1 ship can own a T2 ship of the same class. It depends on the fitting and pilots awareness/skill as much if not more than pure SP.
2. There are many reasons to pvp for both fun and profit.
For real though you don't need a 200mil BS to pvp. Grab a T1 cruiser or frigate and have at it.
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Ryysa
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.10 21:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Pinstar
1. Would a T1 ship ever be able to beat a T2 ship of a similar class, given the variable conditions two PVPers might meet.
Easily, make one of the ships an EW ship with decent skills (celestis/blackbird) and the other a damage dealer.
But as someone previously said, everything is possible, and in this case mainly depends on player experience and skill.
EW Guide - KB Tool - PVP Event |
Smakko
Ad Astra Vexillum
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.11 06:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: NoNah
Shouldve added "fitted" to every t1 and t2 there really. =)
Even if there are occasions where 2 tech 1 ships will beat the tech 2 version of it, what I meant was 2 tech 1 ships with tech 1 fittings, encountering a tech 1 ship with tech 2 fitting.
Some T2 mods are significantly better than the best named T1 mods. In the case of guns and launchers, the T2 versions are usually far cheaper than the best named T1 versions. I use T2 Heavy missile launchers not only because they: hold more ammo than the best T1; fire faster due to being affected by the requisite missile specialization skill; and give me the option to use T2 ammo (I prefer to use faction ammo if I have it), but because they cost a lot less than the best T1 variant, the "Arbalest." Not all T2 mods are better than T1, and in addition, the T1 versions almost always have lighter fitting requirements.
Basically, you'll find that T2 is _not_ always better, fit-wise, function-wise, nor cost-wise. T2 Weapons though, make a big difference. Once you get your fitting skills up to snuff, you'll be able to squeeze on both T2 weps and mods, and be able to take advantage of the relative cost effectiveness of T2 equipment. Until then, you'll be using middle range T1 stuff.
As far as the relative effectiveness between T2 and mid-range T1 (since we're talking about cheap disposable stuff), it's really situational. Being able to web your opponent while staying out of his web range is a huge advantage. Being able to lock him and then scram/damp him before he can try to do the same to you is also a huge advantage. Sniping you while you have to MWD toward him just to touch him is also a huge advantage. But there are definitely times when a ship is just setup horribly wrong for the encounter it faces, regardless of how expensive it is. For example, T2 fitted drone/damp ships might come up against missile boats with crappy equipment. The missile boats are immediately damped and swarmed with drones. The missile ships then switch to FoF missiles and start spamming. Goodbye drones. The drone boats most likely escape though.
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Fenren
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Posted - 2007.07.11 08:22:00 -
[10]
and the best part about disposable ships is that you gain experience without costing you billions
Originally by: CCP Ginger
Hello!
Ships have crews, most pod controlled frigates do not, above that they have crews of varying sizes. Hope that helps.
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Kendala Ciistu
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Posted - 2007.07.11 08:28:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Kendala Ciistu on 11/07/2007 08:27:24
<--- stupid alt
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Wrayeth
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.07.11 08:28:00 -
[12]
My best advice to you is to view every ship you fly as disposable, even if it costs billions. When you decide to buy a ship and modules for it, ask yourself the following question:
"If I buy this, am I okay with the possibility of losing it?"
If your answer is "yes", then by all means, buy it and use it until it dies...but expect it to die eventually.
-Wrayeth
n00b Extraordinaire
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Mephistophilis
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.07.11 09:03:00 -
[13]
Well i fit most of my ships to win. My blasterthron is t2 and faction fitted (don't get too excited, it's just shadow hardners for cpu) pluss rigs and faction ammo. Sure i may loose it but it's insured and it'll not go down without one hell of a fight
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TimMc
The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2007.07.11 11:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Wrayeth
My best advice to you is to view every ship you fly as disposable, even if it costs billions. When you decide to buy a ship and modules for it, ask yourself the following question:
"If I buy this, am I okay with the possibility of losing it?"
If your answer is "yes", then by all means, buy it and use it until it dies...but expect it to die eventually.
That is the whole midset of Eve, the willingness to lose hundreds of millions and just keep on playing. In my whole time in playing Eve I've probably earned 700 million isk, I lost 350 million in ships, equipment and implants last week and I still play because I never planned for them to last forever. Then alternate mentality of using cheap ships only works if there are alot of your corpmates with you, and even then a couple T2 can lay waste to you.
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Maeltstome
Minmatar
Caldari Navy Raiders
Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.07.11 11:22:00 -
[15]
Choosing fast ships with limited tanks usually is the best way to go.
current ship of choice: Stabber
T2 auto's with barrage and some bog standard heavy launchers, t1 scram, mwd, best named LSE and t1 speed gear + t2 damage mod.
Insured and fitted it costs me about 15mil, which is about 2 hours ratting in 0.0 - Absolutely outstanding for roaming through 0.0 and annoying small gangs and camps, and anything fast enough to catch youw ill either be an inty or dictor, which you will smash within second (not even a crow will be able to stop you ;) ) - just run from vagabonds or nano cruisers. Aim for assault frigs, they cant take the dps and generally cant catch you and have nice t2 fittings.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.11 11:25:00 -
[16]
It's pixels.
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I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
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n0thing
omen.
D-L
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Posted - 2007.07.11 11:27:00 -
[17]
Its very situational question really.
In theory, you cannot beat a T2 with T1 equivalent just because T2 means better overall. But, there are cases when you can take down T2 ship in a T1 one. It can happen due to T2 ship pilot mistake, it can happen due to him already been damaged from previous fight on anything.
2 T1 ships of similar class that are loaded to fly together also *might* take down a T2 equivalent given they work together and both have generally above average pvp expirience. For example one fits pure EW, second does the damage.
Flying better ship usually means, you get to fight stronger targets. Being able to face tighter situations makes you survive better in case that tight target attacks you first.
Overall, dont for one minute think pvp is too high profile for anyone. Everyone can PvP, in pretty much every ship. You dont need top end skills nor top end mods. It all builds up later on, so my advice would be, join an average pvp corp with average numbers and simply fly with them. Even T1 frigate can do the tackler job. Learn from em, let em advice you and make you better.
As for ship loss cost wise, well..again, really depends...I would say fly only what you can afford to loose. Means someone who flies a 300mil CS can afford it, so if he kills you 5 times and you kill him once, well, since he was able to afford it, he will just replace it like you replaced your 10m ship.
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Venkhar Krard
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Posted - 2007.07.11 11:33:00 -
[18]
Just fly cruisers and tier 2 battlecruisers.
They are cheap and can kill t2 frigates, interdictors, hac's and recons.
If you want to get the best kill for you buck, those will be good for you.
You dont need any t2 ships to win in pvp and have fun. A tier 2 BC with some cheap t2 fit is more then enough to fly with the big boys ;]
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Pyr8
The Sausage Smuggling Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.11 12:11:00 -
[19]
T1 cruisers especially are great value and can provide loads of throw away fun, regardless of skill points.
When you are well skilled a T1 cruiser becomes extremely dangerous and can kick serious arse even against T2 variants depending on fittings and the skill of the other pilot, people imo seem to feel protected when they fly T2... they die just like everything else
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Sku1ly
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.11 12:34:00 -
[20]
A while back when ASCN was still around I took a trip to Stain in a T1 fitted Arbitrator (aside from drones)
I killed a blasterthron (took ages) and then engaged a Beagle a few jumps later.
He was going to die, but as it was on a gate he deaggressed and jumped out. It was an awesome fight, but my T1 cruiser was beating the crap out of him.
It's certainly possible, people still kill Interceptors in Punishers etc now..
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Kenneys
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.11 12:47:00 -
[21]
Well that's the basic idea... Inflict as much losses as you can for the least amount of cost.
IE: Most bang for your buck principle.
Of course, then you need to throw in a few other things into the equation.
How rich am I? How rich is the other guy? How much manpower do we have? How much manpower does he have?
Eventually you'll come to the conclusion that you need a capital fleet to survive with today's standard. lol.
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Entreri Finwe
Raptus Regaliter
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.07.11 13:59:00 -
[22]
A Thorax and a BB should be able to handle most HAC's if the t1 pilots are fitted good (racial ECM, neutron blasters ect) and the HAC isn't goodlike...
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I had a cool siggy but it had the wrong corp in it, then my server died :( |
Vorketh Mordanil
Amarr
Brotherhood of Acquisitions
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:10:00 -
[23]
PVP in this game is like a rollercoaster ride... it's all about the thrill, the adrenaline, and the conversations afterwards... sure, to ride that rollercoaster you might have to wait in line for an hour or two, but as long as you've got people to chat with during that time, it passes. And sure, the rollercoaster ride is relatively brief given the money and time you've spent getting to it, but it was fun!
That's EVE PVP.
Just enjoy yourself with whatever you can afford.
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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:18:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Pinstar
make the other guy lose .. losing as little .. PVP in ultra-cheap
Probably correct theory, yet calculating how much a loss costs isn't that easy.
In addiotion to ship and module costs, you need to also figure
- Time lost while getting new ship and fitting it
- Extra time needed to inflict X losses to opponent
- Moral loss - cost (and moral gain for the opponent)
Time losses can be converted to ISK treated as opportunity loss. Unless you love pod-flying and refitting ships, you could have used such lost hour for monotonous belt ratting -> 20M isk opportunity loss.
Hence I believe that really cheap ships don't tend not to be cost effective; you would be more efficient in some better fittings.
Also would guess smaller fleet will get into fights more often than larger but equally efficient fleet.
-Lasse
the goal is not to have the best ship, but to force the opponent fighting with one that is worse than yours
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Manic Smile
Tau Ceti Global Production
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.07.11 15:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sku1ly
A while back when ASCN was still around I took a trip to Stain in a T1 fitted Arbitrator (aside from drones)
I killed a blasterthron (took ages) and then engaged a Beagle a few jumps later.
He was going to die, but as it was on a gate he deaggressed and jumped out. It was an awesome fight, but my T1 cruiser was beating the crap out of him.
It's certainly possible, people still kill Interceptors in Punishers etc now..
I'm not calling BS but can you tell a little more about how you did that...sounds like a cool story.
*courtesy of www.flickr.com
I hate the jpeg format.
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.07.11 15:38:00 -
[26]
I like pvping in nice ships.
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Rafein
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Posted - 2007.07.11 15:49:00 -
[27]
Well, with the massive price drop of T2, due to invention, really no reason, other that skills, of not fitting Tech 2. I mean, this is not like 6 months ago, where 8 425 rails cost as much as the Rokh to put it on. Most Tech 2 mods are reasonably priced, and you can try to invent the ones yo most often use, to keep costs down.
But yeah, i was always one for flying around in T1 cruisers, not really looking for kills, but looking to annoy the hell outta anyone. Loved the EQ ship, BB, arb, Cel, just for showing up and messing with other people's fun.
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Rilder
Caldari
THC LTD
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Posted - 2007.07.11 15:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: LUKEC
It's pixels.
So? "Pixels" can't be important ot a player?
Visit my blog =)http://rilderslog.blogspot.com/ |
Vorketh Mordanil
Amarr
Brotherhood of Acquisitions
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Posted - 2007.07.11 17:04:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Rilder
Originally by: LUKEC
It's pixels.
So? "Pixels" can't be important ot a player?
QFT... when those pixels are organized in a way that represent an image of what you've accomplished over the span of unrecoverable time you've spent making those pixels show up that way (ie... getting your ships, etc), losing it is akin to wasting time, which can only be mitigated by a fun factor. If you didn't have fun getting the pixels that way and / or watching those pixels change into something resembling an explosion, then you will probably be very frustrated.
*breathes*
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Wildthorn Starfire
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Posted - 2007.07.11 17:49:00 -
[30]
Originally by: NoNah
Then theres goons. Goons brings as many ships as they can to combat. Say what your 3 hours old? Well dont worry, you start in a ship, come join us! If the ship ahead of you explodes, grab its wreck, fit its guns and keep fighting.
I really would like to try out pvp, but solo i just get wrecked.
Do they realy take anyone?
How do i join?
What is the procedure? To whom should i talk?
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