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CyberGh0st Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:13:00 - [91] Edited by: CyberGh0st on 13/07/2007 13:13:12 Originally by: Plaetean Originally by: Fedaykinn Originally by: Plaetean Originally by: Lexus Deus I have logged off as i didnt know what to do. Any advice etc please as i didnt expect that at all. Uninstall eve. STFU? Sorry, no sympathy for someone who logs in combat. Moron CyberGh0st aka Cyberwiz aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Retired @ Bors DAoC / Atlantic UO / Sunstrider WoW / Valcyn SWG / Snowbourn LOTRO / Planetside / Entropia / Lineage / Guildwars
Ki An Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:14:00 - [92] Originally by: Kuseka Adama I wont be a friggin coward. I think your view is idiotic at times. Honestly this is a damned shame. Personally though when my game is going anyone randomly messages me i tell them to bleep off and put them on ignore lists. If i am significantly annoyed at RL events i will go to my buds and see if we cant get a gang together to frag the SOB. There are three words to live by in eve Dont Trust Anybody. While i love eve it is absurdly stupid this is forced to be the case but it is. Its ***** stupid honestly you its a real telling story on the state of the human race where people use a game to get their jollies off by hurting people. We got enough of these **heads IRL and people decide 'OH i dont wanna go to jail i will just ruin people's fun in cyberspace i am committing crimes but I DONT GO TO JAIL!! WOOT.' Friggin stupid i am not a carebear but this kind of philosophy within a game is just over the damned top. I shouldnt have to worry about those ganged with me locking my ass if i need to handle something. Allies are allies period. Can I have your stuff? /Ki Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:16:00 - [93] Originally by: Kuseka Adama While i love eve it is absurdly stupid this is forced to be the case but it is. Its ***** stupid honestly you its a real telling story on the state of the human race where people use a game to get their jollies off by hurting people. We got enough of these **heads IRL and people decide 'OH i dont wanna go to jail i will just ruin people's fun in cyberspace i am committing crimes but I DONT GO TO JAIL!! WOOT.' Friggin stupid i am not a carebear but this kind of philosophy within a game is just over the damned top. I shouldnt have to worry about those ganged with me locking my ass if i need to handle something. Allies are allies period. Double-Ewe Tee Eff? - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:18:00 - [94] Edited by: Kuseka Adama on 13/07/2007 13:18:14 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Kuseka Adama While i love eve it is absurdly stupid this is forced to be the case but it is. Its ***** stupid honestly you its a real telling story on the state of the human race where people use a game to get their jollies off by hurting people. We got enough of these **heads IRL and people decide 'OH i dont wanna go to jail i will just ruin people's fun in cyberspace i am committing crimes but I DONT GO TO JAIL!! WOOT.' Friggin stupid i am not a carebear but this kind of philosophy within a game is just over the damned top. I shouldnt have to worry about those ganged with me locking my ass if i need to handle something. Allies are allies period. Double-Ewe Tee Eff? The mindset of a typical pirate or ganker in highsec. The same as the common street thug. In my opinion. You wanna really fight take it out to low sec and null sec. Prove ya got the big ones.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:21:00 - [95] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 13/07/2007 13:20:40 Originally by: Kuseka Adama Edited by: Kuseka Adama on 13/07/2007 13:18:14 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Kuseka Adama Insanity. Double-Ewe Tee Eff? The mindset of a typical pirate or ganker in highsec. The same as the common street thug. In my opinion. You wanna really fight take it out to low sec and null sec. Prove ya got the big ones. Well, obviously they don't really want to fight, do they? Duh. I'm sorry, but this is not the utopian world you are looking for. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Garat Mant Minmatar Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:31:00 - [96] Originally by: Dakess Athan Originally by: Garat Mant What sort of ship and fittings did you lose? Oh nothing great...cough Navythron cough* 5 month old char cough Core X type Reps Fascinating and what are you insinuating by the cough?
Wardog 1 Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:31:00 - [97] Originally by: Kuseka Adama Edited by: Kuseka Adama on 13/07/2007 13:18:14 Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Kuseka Adama Whining about everyone not loving each other. Double-Ewe Tee Eff? The mindset of a typical pirate or ganker in highsec. The same as the common street thug. In my opinion. You wanna really fight take it out to low sec and null sec. Prove ya got the big ones. You... really don't know what you talking about. I know, personally, about three people using this technique to net kills in highsec. Do they rob people in real life? Do they go about mugging people? Do they pretend to make friends with ferrari owners in real life and steal their cars? Of course not, they're just like everyone else. Funny thing is, they all usually live in low sec, they've been fighting there and in 0.0 for longer than you've been playing this game. They do it for easy isk, and because 80% of the people playing in high-sec are oblivious of the game mechanics, their own fault for not using all the recourses available to them. I live in low sec, if i decide to go to perimeter to gank your indy, does that make me a common street thug? Surely that means I don't have big ones. I need to make a motiational poster on that: "Carebear ganking, those who can, do; those who can't, whine on the forums."
CyberGh0st Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:32:00 - [98] Originally by: Norwood Franskly Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 13/07/2007 11:44:14 Originally by: Malcanis My advice is: don't join someone's gang unless you trust them. That attitudes like this exists in this game is a real pity, I'm a new character (I have been playing for about a month) and I would have fallen for this exploit as well. It seems very hard to build up a community and make friends with people if it's impossible to join their gang out of fear of being set upon by other people. It's things like this that make Eve inherently difficult for the new players. I'm someone who believes in trying to help people out and if someone asked for my help in the local channel, provided there security status indicated they weren't a pirate, I would have formed a gang with them without thinking twice. Now having read this topic I won't be forming gangs with anybody anymore. It's sad because almost every role playing game I have played is geared towards forming a party in order to take out your adversaries, yet this flaw exists in Eve and essentially inhibits a key part of the gaming experience as it's rather difficult for new players to do a large part of the so called "care bear" eve experience (Missions, Low Security travel etc) Solo. Before someone tells me to suck it up and join a corp (I'm already in a corp), correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the same exploit also possible by inviting people into your corp? A corp being essentially a permanent 'gang'. It's a real pity I think the attitudes of some of the people in this thread, who seem to find such abuses of trust acceptable and it is very sad that there's no room in Eve for "a nice guy", which is rather disappointing. Don't get me wrong I love this game (so far) but it seems when I started Eve I had the wrong impression about it (and I'm sure I'm not the only new player to feel like this). I was lead to believe, among other things, that this game has a great community and was very welcoming towards new players. Yet it seems to me the Eve community exists only to find new ways to scam, exploit or humiliate others, which is disappointing from a game that marketed as being for more 'mature' players. QFT !!! CyberGh0st aka Cyberwiz aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Retired @ Bors DAoC / Atlantic UO / Sunstrider WoW / Valcyn SWG / Snowbourn LOTRO / Planetside / Entropia / Lineage / Guildwars
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:37:00 - [99] Originally by: CyberGh0st Originally by: Norwood Franskly Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 13/07/2007 11:44:14 Originally by: Malcanis My advice is: don't join someone's gang unless you trust them. Garbage QFT !!! Considering that that page long ramble becomes completely irrelevant if you simply get them to join your gang rather than the other way around, it's not really Truth. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:42:00 - [100] I wonder how many of the DEV's use this technique with their "pirate" characters. Building the homestead

Ki An Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:46:00 - [101] Originally by: CyberGh0st Originally by: Norwood Franskly Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 13/07/2007 11:44:14 Originally by: Malcanis My advice is: don't join someone's gang unless you trust them. That attitudes like this exists in this game is a real pity, I'm a new character (I have been playing for about a month) and I would have fallen for this exploit as well. It seems very hard to build up a community and make friends with people if it's impossible to join their gang out of fear of being set upon by other people. It's things like this that make Eve inherently difficult for the new players. I'm someone who believes in trying to help people out and if someone asked for my help in the local channel, provided there security status indicated they weren't a pirate, I would have formed a gang with them without thinking twice. Now having read this topic I won't be forming gangs with anybody anymore. It's sad because almost every role playing game I have played is geared towards forming a party in order to take out your adversaries, yet this flaw exists in Eve and essentially inhibits a key part of the gaming experience as it's rather difficult for new players to do a large part of the so called "care bear" eve experience (Missions, Low Security travel etc) Solo. Before someone tells me to suck it up and join a corp (I'm already in a corp), correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the same exploit also possible by inviting people into your corp? A corp being essentially a permanent 'gang'. It's a real pity I think the attitudes of some of the people in this thread, who seem to find such abuses of trust acceptable and it is very sad that there's no room in Eve for "a nice guy", which is rather disappointing. Don't get me wrong I love this game (so far) but it seems when I started Eve I had the wrong impression about it (and I'm sure I'm not the only new player to feel like this). I was lead to believe, among other things, that this game has a great community and was very welcoming towards new players. Yet it seems to me the Eve community exists only to find new ways to scam, exploit or humiliate others, which is disappointing from a game that marketed as being for more 'mature' players. QFT !!! Don't like it? Here's the door. /Ki Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Norwood Franskly	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:54:00 - [102] Originally by: Crumplecorn Considering that that page long ramble becomes completely irrelevant if you simply get them to join your gang rather than the other way around, it's not really Truth. Not sure what resoloution your running but it's hardly a page Be that as it may can you add some constructive critiscm if you have the time? As I am interested in other peoples point of view.
DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.07.13 13:59:00 - [103] I think if this was any other MMO, that "tactic" would be an exploit IMO... It's been going on quite some time, so the DEV's must like the "tactic", and enjoy seeing players use it. About as much as they like to see logging in combat, they are both pretty good tactics in this game I guess... I think they should just say in the EVE tutorial, to block all other players from contacting you, and also never join a gang... Building the homestead
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:06:00 - [104] Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 13/07/2007 13:44:50 I wonder how many of the DEV's use this technique with their "pirate" characters. Quote: I was lead to believe, among other things, that this game has a great community and was very welcoming towards new players Someone lied to you... EVE is anything but kind to new players. The DEV's have kept a certain amount of griefing of noobs in this game since the beginning, that will never change... It's probably one of the main reasons EVE has such a poor new player re-sub rate... It's never griefing. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:14:00 - [105] Originally by: Norwood Franskly Originally by: Crumplecorn Considering that that page long ramble becomes completely irrelevant if you simply get them to join your gang rather than the other way around, it's not really Truth. Not sure what resoloution your running but it's hardly a page Be that as it may can you add some constructive critiscm if you have the time? As I am interested in other peoples point of view. I already said it. If you don't trust someone, have them join your gang rather than the other way around. "OK I'll help you, but only if I'm gang lead" This prevents the use of this tactic, and renders your lecture about the teamplay aspect of the game moot. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:14:00 - [106] Originally by: William Hamilton You have a big box that tells you the risks of joining a warring gang, if you click yes you accept these risks. The box ALSO tells you whether the person is actively at war, but will ALWAYS tell you that they are not even when they are.... So it is very easy to get caught by this, and the game tells you that you are safe <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Norwood Franskly	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:15:00 - [107] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 13/07/2007 13:44:50 I wonder how many of the DEV's use this technique with their "pirate" characters. Quote: I was lead to believe, among other things, that this game has a great community and was very welcoming towards new players Someone lied to you... EVE is anything but kind to new players. The DEV's have kept a certain amount of griefing of noobs in this game since the beginning, that will never change... It's probably one of the main reasons EVE has such a poor new player re-sub rate... It's never griefing. For the most part I think the new player experience has been good, The tutorial was very well done I thought, though villard Wheel is a pain , the Rookie help channel is very good and some people in there (I assume the guys with purple writing are volunteer staff) are very helpful and it's appreciated. Amongst a certain segment of the playerbase though is where the 'tensions' lie I feel, on the whole I think eve is a lot easier for a Newbie then UO (which I played some years ago).
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:18:00 - [108] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby the game tells you that you are safe This seems unlikely to ever happen. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:23:00 - [109] Originally by: Crumplecorn It's never griefing. To the DEV's, and the EVE players who utilize these tactics, no, of course not... But to all the players who did not re-sub, I beg to differ. But that's ok, the DEV's have what they want, a weeding out process by allowing certain tactics which are considered griefing in the MMO community as a whole to exist in EVE. It's akin to a certain race/ethnic group eating a certain animal that the rest of the world views as a pet, and the wrong thing to do. Of course it's fine with that ethnic group, they can call it a delicacy all they want, we all know what it really is however... It's just simpler to call it what it is and accept it, but that's just me... Building the homestead
Ki An Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:33:00 - [110] Originally by: DarkMatter Originally by: Crumplecorn It's never griefing. To the DEV's, and the EVE players who utilize these tactics, no, of course not... But to all the players who did not re-sub, I beg to differ. But that's ok, the DEV's have what they want, a weeding out process by allowing certain tactics which are considered griefing in the MMO community as a whole to exist in EVE. It's akin to a certain race/ethnic group eating a certain animal that the rest of the world views as a pet, and the wrong thing to do. Of course it's fine with that ethnic group, they can call it a delicacy all they want, we all know what it really is however... It's just simpler to call it what it is and accept it, but that's just me... I'm sorry, what? The MMO community? Are you talking about mmorpg.com? The place of fanbois and idiots? I don't know any MMO community, and I don't feel like I have anything in common with WoW players and the like. EvE is EvE, and not any other game. /Ki Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!

Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:33:00 - [111] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 13/07/2007 14:33:33 Quote: I already said it. If you don't trust someone, have them join your gang rather than the other way around. "OK I'll help you, but only if I'm gang lead" This prevents the use of this tactic, and renders your lecture about the teamplay aspect of the game moot. I'm pretty sure this comment wasn't contradicted because the answer to it is so obvious that only really, really dense people can't get it. Basically, you say : don't join a gang, but make it. Why should the other guy join then ? You could be the ganker ! Follow the reasoning to the end, and no one joins any gang... which poses obvious problems for newbies. Experienced players can go around this problem, because after a while, friends are made and you can turn the table on those people... Well the solution does work, it's true that never joining a gang solves the problem. However, you are suggesting that playing alone (remember, newb's point of view, experienced people have friends in game and can avoid these problem) in a MMORPG is a solution ? In short, this is obviously an oversight in game mechanics that needs to be corrected, since the only counter there is to it is either being paranoid about "strangers" or never meet new people while playing in a MMORPG... Just prevent people at war from joining the same gang.
Ki An Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:43:00 - [112] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather I'm pretty sure this comment wasn't contradicted because the answer to it is so obvious that only really, really dense people can't get it. Basically, you say : don't join a gang, but make it. Why should the other guy join then ? You could be the ganker ! Follow the reasoning to the end, and no one joins any gang... which poses obvious problems for newbies. Experienced players can go around this problem, because after a while, friends are made and you can turn the table on those people... Well the solution does work, it's true that never joining a gang solves the problem. However, you are suggesting that playing alone (remember, newb's point of view, experienced people have friends in game and can avoid these problem) in a MMORPG is a solution ? In short, this is obviously an oversight in game mechanics that needs to be corrected, since the only counter there is to it is either being paranoid about "strangers" or never meet new people while playing in a MMORPG... Just prevent people at war from joining the same gang. Ok, first off you are setting up a strawman argument in that noobs would be hurt by this. What you don't take into account is that a noob won't have anything that these guys want, and so will not be targetted in high sec. If you are flying a navythron with faction mods, you are NOT a noob. You might still be stupid, tho, and there should be no protection for stupid people. The next part goes more into the technical aspect of this. You are saying that someone who wants to help another person and demands to start the gang himself might be a ganker in the other players view? Well, if you where to ask for help in a mission and the player offering to help you would do so only if he got to start the gang, would you say no? YOU are the one who asked for help. If YOU don't accept the other guy's terms, you are free to look for someone else to help you. Crumplecorn's point thus stands. /Ki Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Jennai The Silent Rage R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:46:00 - [113] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: William Hamilton You have a big box that tells you the risks of joining a warring gang, if you click yes you accept these risks. The box ALSO tells you whether the person is actively at war, but will ALWAYS tell you that they are not even when they are.... So it is very easy to get caught by this, and the game tells you that you are safe when did they break that? I know it used to work not too long ago, I remember joining a gang and getting the message saying "a gang member's corporation is currently at war with: X corp, Y corp, Z corp. joining this gang will make you a valid target, etc".
Norwood Franskly	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:49:00 - [114] Believe it or not there are people who enjoy killing us noobs just for the sake of it I think. Also as a noob it took me a long time to figure out how to create a gang I don't know wether its ignorance or what but the gang window seems really unintuitive to me.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.13 14:53:00 - [115] Originally by: Jennai when did they break that? I know it used to work not too long ago, I remember joining a gang and getting the message saying "a gang member's corporation is currently at war with: X corp, Y corp, Z corp. joining this gang will make you a valid target, etc". Didn't work last weekend, didn't work a month ago, didn't work 3 months ago, didn't work 8 months ago when I started. And yes, I know the other person I ganged with last weekend is at war, he's a good friend of mine. The others were too, I was being used as "bait".... Maybe it only hits at specific situations, but I have never seen the warning accurate. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Callente Riveara Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.07.13 15:19:00 - [116] this thread is pretty horrible.
Matroshka Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.07.13 15:31:00 - [117] Originally by: DarkMatter I think if this was any other MMO, that "tactic" would be an exploit IMO... It's been going on quite some time, so the DEV's must like the "tactic", and enjoy seeing players use it. This is one of the things that makes EVE a great game in my opinion. -------------
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:08:00 - [118] Edited by: FarScape III on 13/07/2007 16:12:35 You all miss the point, This is an Exploit and needs to be fixed. It makes no sence to be able to gang with a person you are at war with THEN to be able to shoot someone you are not at war with in the gang YOU are in. Now we can not have fun with new people anymore. Is it all of a sudden not against the law to shoot someone in the same bus as you, just because your enemy came on the bus after? P.S. An Exploit is an Exploit and unbalnces the game and is only wanted by the people who can not win otherwise. Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Ares Lightfeather I'm pretty sure this comment wasn't contradicted because the answer to it is so obvious that only really, really dense people can't get it. Basically, you say : don't join a gang, but make it. Why should the other guy join then ? You could be the ganker ! Follow the reasoning to the end, and no one joins any gang... which poses obvious problems for newbies. Experienced players can go around this problem, because after a while, friends are made and you can turn the table on those people... Well the solution does work, it's true that never joining a gang solves the problem. However, you are suggesting that playing alone (remember, newb's point of view, experienced people have friends in game and can avoid these problem) in a MMORPG is a solution ? In short, this is obviously an oversight in game mechanics that needs to be corrected, since the only counter there is to it is either being paranoid about "strangers" or never meet new people while playing in a MMORPG... Just prevent people at war from joining the same gang. Ok, first off you are setting up a strawman argument in that noobs would be hurt by this. What you don't take into account is that a noob won't have anything that these guys want, and so will not be targetted in high sec. If you are flying a navythron with faction mods, you are NOT a noob. You might still be stupid, tho, and there should be no protection for stupid people. The next part goes more into the technical aspect of this. You are saying that someone who wants to help another person and demands to start the gang himself might be a ganker in the other players view? Well, if you where to ask for help in a mission and the player offering to help you would do so only if he got to start the gang, would you say no? YOU are the one who asked for help. If YOU don't accept the other guy's terms, you are free to look for someone else to help you. Crumplecorn's point thus stands. /Ki Ok lets just say the person in NOT stupid and so never gangs anymore, is that what you think gangs should be doing? What for? Wars are ONLY for the people waring. Not for intergang exploitation. A Minmater City... Cool! My Skills
DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:20:00 - [119] Edited by: DarkMatter on 13/07/2007 16:20:20 Quote: I'm sorry, what? The MMO community? Are you talking about mmorpg.com? The community that CCP hopes to get another 100,000 subscribers from b4 the end of 2007... (You know, the ones WIS is for? You think WIS is designed to attract more PvP'ers to EVE?) EVE attracts older gamers, more so than any other MMO. Therefore it stands to reason those older players have experienced other MMO's, hence they belong to the community of gamers who enjoy MMO's, The MMO Community. Not really that hard to understand, you seem to be having trouble with it however... Building the homestead
Mir Net	Posted - 2007.07.13 16:31:00 - [120] I agree with you darkmatter, i realy do. CCP shoot themselfs in the foot on this one for sure, for every one that comes and bemoans their loss on the forum, there's probaly 10 more that just quietly quit. I can tell you as a player from the summer of 2003, social grouping used to be all the rage, why i find it disapointing now, the game is far more fruitfull, yet it's not embraced due to issues like this and generaly hostile community.



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