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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.07.13 08:39:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Lexus Deus Guys I dont know what to do, I was in dodixie and someone asked me to help them. He ganged warped us and two player bs were waiting for me. They webbed and scrammed me and asked for a billion which i dont have. I have logged off as i didnt know what to do. Any advice etc please as i didnt expect that at all.
CCP encourages griefing of this kind by combining obscure game mechanics with bad documentation and inconsistent in-game warnings. I'm sorry for your loss, but you'll have to get used to this, older players enjoy exploiting these loopholes in EVE and as you probably know, EVE is tailored for the older 10% of the players, so don't expect it to get fixed, documented, or prevented through appropriate warnings for noobs...
Troll. STFU.
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: DarkElf
And as others have said you get a message when someone offers a gang and last time i checked it tells you that if someone in gang is in a war then u become a valid war target
You do not get a warning if the people who are at war are invited after you, which is the whole idea of this "exploit". So your argument just illustrates how obscure this stuff is and why it must be fixed.
You always get a gang warning unless you turn it off. It's not a exploit, unless you count 'exploiting' player ignorance. -
I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.07.13 08:42:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Lexus Deus Guys I dont know what to do, I was in dodixie and someone asked me to help them. He ganged warped us and two player bs were waiting for me. They webbed and scrammed me and asked for a billion which i dont have. I have logged off as i didnt know what to do. Any advice etc please as i didnt expect that at all.
CCP encourages griefing of this kind by combining obscure game mechanics with bad documentation and inconsistent in-game warnings. I'm sorry for your loss, but you'll have to get used to this, older players enjoy exploiting these loopholes in EVE and as you probably know, EVE is tailored for the older 10% of the players, so don't expect it to get fixed, documented, or prevented through appropriate warnings for noobs...
Troll. STFU.
You are entitled to your opinion and to your moronic flaming, but I was not trolling and I don't think my facts are wrong.
Quote:
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: DarkElf
And as others have said you get a message when someone offers a gang and last time i checked it tells you that if someone in gang is in a war then u become a valid war target
You do not get a warning if the people who are at war are invited after you, which is the whole idea of this "exploit". So your argument just illustrates how obscure this stuff is and why it must be fixed.
You always get a gang warning unless you turn it off. It's not a exploit, unless you count 'exploiting' player ignorance.
You do NOT get a warning that you are being invited by someone who is at war, NOOB. There are 2 different kinds of warnings. One says something like "Noone in this gang is currently at war ...", the other says "XYZ is currently at war with ABC ...". The problem with this exploit is, you NOOB, that the victim gets told that noone is at war in the gang, so he assumes that it is safe, you NOOB.
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.07.13 08:55:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 13/07/2007 08:55:39
Originally by: Pan Crastus You are entitled to your opinion and to your moronic flaming, but I was not trolling and I don't think my facts are wrong.
Originally by: Pan Crastus CCP encourages griefing of this kind by combining obscure game mechanics with bad documentation and inconsistent in-game warnings.
That alone is a compeltely unsupportable conclusion. Even assuming the game mechanics are too complicated and the documentation too poor for a competent player (they're not BTW), that's far more likely dev failure than an attempt to support 'griefing'. And it's never griefing.
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Pan Crastus
Originally by: DarkElf
And as others have said you get a message when someone offers a gang and last time i checked it tells you that if someone in gang is in a war then u become a valid war target
You do not get a warning if the people who are at war are invited after you, which is the whole idea of this "exploit". So your argument just illustrates how obscure this stuff is and why it must be fixed.
You always get a gang warning unless you turn it off. It's not a exploit, unless you count 'exploiting' player ignorance.
You do NOT get a warning that you are being invited by someone who is at war, NOOB. There are 2 different kinds of warnings. One says something like "Noone in this gang is currently at war ...", the other says "XYZ is currently at war with ABC ...". The problem with this exploit is, you NOOB, that the victim gets told that noone is at war in the gang, so he assumes that it is safe, you NOOB.
They get told no-one is at war, but that they will become vulnerable to any wardecs which end up in the gang at a later point. Which is exactly my point. And it's not an exploit. -
I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Murasaki Midori
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Posted - 2007.07.13 09:32:00 -
[64]
hypothetically, if one was to leave gang such a before dropping out of warp, would that void the ability to be shot at in hi sec? |
FarScape III
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Posted - 2007.07.13 09:32:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Santa Anna Edited by: Santa Anna on 13/07/2007 04:42:11
Originally by: FarScape III This is a GREAT game as a whole, and if any one just thinks it is to JUST PvP then they do not know the full potential of EVE.
PvP along with everything else is just a part of EVE.
Everything you do in this game that involves isk is PVP. Just because you aren't shooting another player's ship doesn't mean you aren't altering the game environment in a manner that benefits you at the expense of others.
edit - clarity
Yes I know that, I have said that my self, but he was saying PvP like in ship to ship combat.
A Minmater City... Cool! My Skills |
FarScape III
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Posted - 2007.07.13 09:35:00 -
[66]
Edited by: FarScape III on 13/07/2007 09:36:10 double post
A Minmater City... Cool! My Skills |
Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.07.13 09:39:00 -
[67]
Do not help anyone. Ever.
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Ki An
Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.07.13 09:47:00 -
[68]
This is the circle of life in EvE. Isk gets redistributed from ignorant people to intelligent people. If you play the game for more than half a year it is wise to learn the mechanics of the game. To not do so is lazy and deserves no pity.
Go Lofty (and copycats)!
/Ki
Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.07.13 10:11:00 -
[69]
I wonder why gang members become war targets at all. Other than being a griefing/scamming mechanic, there is no reason for this.
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Ki An
Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.07.13 10:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Ogul I wonder why gang members become war targets at all. Other than being a griefing/scamming mechanic, there is no reason for this.
Scouts, warp-in points, etc.
/Ki
Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
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Shadow Ballet
Asguard Security Service
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Posted - 2007.07.13 10:19:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Murasaki Midori hypothetically, if one was to leave gang such a before dropping out of warp, would that void the ability to be shot at in hi sec?
yes
I'm surprised there aren't more people making use of this technique to be honest. It's obvious that many are ignorant of it.
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Malcanis
High4Life Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.13 10:19:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Lexus Deus Guys I dont know what to do, I was in dodixie and someone asked me to help them. He ganged warped us and two player bs were waiting for me. They webbed and scrammed me and asked for a billion which i dont have. I have logged off as i didnt know what to do. Any advice etc please as i didnt expect that at all.
My advice is: don't join someone's gang unless you trust them. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2007.07.13 10:28:00 -
[73]
Just to make sure if I understand this correctly.
If A, B and C are in the same gang and A and B are at war with each other, then both of them may attack C while C may attack neither A nor B?
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Aioa
Planetary Assault Systems
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Posted - 2007.07.13 10:46:00 -
[74]
Originally by: gfldex You could have prevented what happend to you by reading.
^^ This, basically.
Discussions of right and wrong aside, a daily skim of the forums can save you from all manner of pitfalls in this game.
This is not a new trick and its been discussed a lot in C&P and GD forums. Its up to you to keep yourself informed. Hope you get back on your feet.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Revelation Space
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Posted - 2007.07.13 10:56:00 -
[75]
I sympathise with your loss. If you'd like to gang with me in Dodixie to run some missions, I'll be glad to try nd help you get some ISK back.
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Wildthorn Starfire
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Posted - 2007.07.13 10:56:00 -
[76]
So you if you get in this situation, you just have to leave gang? Is it important to do it during warp or it helps also when they already are asking for billions?
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Bimjo
Caldari SKULLDOGS
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Posted - 2007.07.13 11:24:00 -
[77]
logging is a big no no, but this situation is the only time I am ok with it(I have never logged) the "Lame Lofty29" exploit is a bug that should be fixed asap
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Norwood Franskly
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Posted - 2007.07.13 11:42:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 13/07/2007 11:44:14
Originally by: Malcanis
My advice is: don't join someone's gang unless you trust them.
That attitudes like this exists in this game is a real pity, I'm a new character (I have been playing for about a month) and I would have fallen for this exploit as well. It seems very hard to build up a community and make friends with people if it's impossible to join their gang out of fear of being set upon by other people. It's things like this that make Eve inherently difficult for the new players.
I'm someone who believes in trying to help people out and if someone asked for my help in the local channel, provided there security status indicated they weren't a pirate, I would have formed a gang with them without thinking twice. Now having read this topic I won't be forming gangs with anybody anymore. It's sad because almost every role playing game I have played is geared towards forming a party in order to take out your adversaries, yet this flaw exists in Eve and essentially inhibits a key part of the gaming experience as it's rather difficult for new players to do a large part of the so called "care bear" eve experience (Missions, Low Security travel etc) Solo.
Before someone tells me to suck it up and join a corp (I'm already in a corp), correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the same exploit also possible by inviting people into your corp? A corp being essentially a permanent 'gang'.
It's a real pity I think the attitudes of some of the people in this thread, who seem to find such abuses of trust acceptable and it is very sad that there's no room in Eve for "a nice guy", which is rather disappointing. Don't get me wrong I love this game (so far) but it seems when I started Eve I had the wrong impression about it (and I'm sure I'm not the only new player to feel like this). I was lead to believe, among other things, that this game has a great community and was very welcoming towards new players. Yet it seems to me the Eve community exists only to find new ways to scam, exploit or humiliate others, which is disappointing from a game that marketed as being for more 'mature' players.
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2007.07.13 11:54:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Astro Teller
griefing is part of any online game and i support it- but the way this happens is beyond griefing- it is abusive
Where's your fine line? I don't see it, do explain.
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comrade captain
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Posted - 2007.07.13 11:54:00 -
[80]
i have had this tried on me a few times in dodixie, it always seems to be people asking for help with a mission and in noob corps, my natural attitude to them is no chance i always think its a trap
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Callente Riveara
Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.07.13 12:04:00 -
[81]
I was so hoping this was a Lofty thread.
But now Im dissapointed because this ALMOST looks like a well played troll.
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band0fdevs
Gallente Band of Dev's
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Posted - 2007.07.13 12:04:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Lexus Une no i didnt take anything, didnt even know this thing could happen, i feel so stupid and i dont know what to do now
read the forums, as for what to do pick up start again 25 level 4 missions and u should have a bil or two
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Aphroditi
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Posted - 2007.07.13 12:14:00 -
[83]
Guys relax.
There are some fail safe measures. a) You don't have to form a gang to help someone in space. The only help they will need is tank-hit a rat/rats. Just blow the rest and let them the last mob to kill. The leave them to loot the cans and even if they will be criminaly flagged leave them in peace.
b) If it's needed to use gate, then form a gang with you as leader. If they truly want your help they will accept.
Player interaction should not be restricted by CCP. Enough complains I hear here and about how unsafe is the Empire. It was never safe. It was worse than today.
Do you like it fine. Not? Go to WOW/LOTR (whatever) or stay docked. Don't try to change 4 years old game. This game is PVP oriented.
EVE is so good because represents the real life. You learn your lessons on the hard way. No protection exists exept yourself. And you can always payback.
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Ki An
Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.07.13 12:16:00 -
[84]
Ok, first, if you are feeling generous enoug to help out a complete stranger in a hostile environment (space), do you really have to do it in your faction fitted navythron? Fact is, you can be as much a help on a level 4 mission in an exequror fitted with some remote reps. If it's tank busting that's needed, go in your named-t1 raven. That would stop this thing all together.
Now for some feedback:
Originally by: Norwood Franskly
That attitudes like this exists in this game is a real pity, I'm a new character (I have been playing for about a month) and I would have fallen for this exploit as well. It seems very hard to build up a community and make friends with people if it's impossible to join their gang out of fear of being set upon by other people. It's things like this that make Eve inherently difficult for the new players.
EvE is inherently difficult for new players, because most new players come from 'other' MMO's and aren't used to the harsh environment in EvE. Without comparing EvE to RL, it really does help to keep the same amount of distrust easily accessible as you would in RL. After all, if someone you didn't know came up to you and said "Could you help me tow my car, it's right down that dark alley over there", would you help him? If you would, would you drive your new pimped out Ferrari down that alley to help the guy? I'm not really comparing the situations, but your actions in one of them could determine your actions in the other.
Originally by: Norwood Franskly I'm someone who believes in trying to help people out and if someone asked for my help in the local channel, provided there security status indicated they weren't a pirate, I would have formed a gang with them without thinking twice. Now having read this topic I won't be forming gangs with anybody anymore. It's sad because almost every role playing game I have played is geared towards forming a party in order to take out your adversaries, yet this flaw exists in Eve and essentially inhibits a key part of the gaming experience as it's rather difficult for new players to do a large part of the so called "care bear" eve experience (Missions, Low Security travel etc) Solo.
Eve is not a solo game. This is not a flaw. Security status in no way indicates if someone is a pirate or not. Trust people at your own risk. These are all things about the game you have to learn. Some do it by keeping themselves informed. Some do it by an expensive lesson. Some never learn and are preyed upon until they quit the game in disgust. Pick your choice.
Originally by: Norwood Franskly
Before someone tells me to suck it up and join a corp (I'm already in a corp), correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the same exploit also possible by inviting people into your corp? A corp being essentially a permanent 'gang'.
Yes, you can shoot anyone in your corp (not NPC corp) anywhere. Does this tell you something? Perhaps that you should form a corp with people you trust?
Originally by: Norwood Franskly
It's a real pity I think the attitudes of some of the people in this thread, who seem to find such abuses of trust acceptable and it is very sad that there's no room in Eve for "a nice guy", which is rather disappointing. Don't get me wrong I love this game (so far) but it seems when I started Eve I had the wrong impression about it (and I'm sure I'm not the only new player to feel like this). I was lead to believe, among other things, that this game has a great community and was very welcoming towards new players. Yet it seems to me the Eve community exists only to find new ways to scam, exploit or humiliate others, which is disappointing from a game that marketed as being for more 'mature' players.
Eve has an extremely good community. We get angry at each other, and we flame each other, but we do help new people. There are lots of help in this thread, but you chose to ignore it. Why won't YOU be mature enough and recognize help that is given.
/Ki
Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Celestal
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Posted - 2007.07.13 12:34:00 -
[85]
There is a very sad effect to this .
When my first char was a noob flying around in a frig , often there would be calls for help , help was always on hand to mission runners in problems . Then there was the guys doing lev 3/4 missions , you would get a call " im doing angel extrav lev 4 anyone wanna join ? " , in a very short space of time you would have a gang of people from various corps in all sorts of ships from frigs to BS . I remember doing AE 4 in oursualert in a rupture with such a gang , huge fun several frigs and cruisers lost , 1 bs jumped into bonus stage , coupla minutes later he was in a pod , No one complained everyone had fun .
Thats what made the community great , a newer guy who got into trouble could always get help if he asked . Most people , like myself , at later stages responded to plees of help in local ( so funny warping in a macharial on a lev 1 or 2 to help a guy).
Now its completely different , If I see a cry for help in local I will ignore it , for a period of time I would link to a thread on the forum about the perils of helping and generally dissuade people from helping .
To me an essential part of the spirit of eve has disappeared and I do wonder how many accounts have been lost because trial people dont see the close knit helpful side of eve .
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Norwood Franskly
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Posted - 2007.07.13 12:35:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Norwood Franskly on 13/07/2007 12:37:07
Originally by: Ki An Ok, first, if you are feeling generous enoug to help out a complete stranger in a hostile environment (space), do you really have to do it in your faction fitted navythron? Fact is, you can be as much a help on a level 4 mission in an exequror fitted with some remote reps. If it's tank busting that's needed, go in your named-t1 raven. That would stop this thing all together.
Now for some feedback:
EvE is inherently difficult for new players, because most new players come from 'other' MMO's and aren't used to the harsh environment in EvE. Without comparing EvE to RL, it really does help to keep the same amount of distrust easily accessible as you would in RL. After all, if someone you didn't know came up to you and said "Could you help me tow my car, it's right down that dark alley over there", would you help him? If you would, would you drive your new pimped out Ferrari down that alley to help the guy? I'm not really comparing the situations, but your actions in one of them could determine your actions in the other.
Eve is not a solo game. This is not a flaw. Security status in no way indicates if someone is a pirate or not. Trust people at your own risk. These are all things about the game you have to learn. Some do it by keeping themselves informed. Some do it by an expensive lesson. Some never learn and are preyed upon until they quit the game in disgust. Pick your choice.
Yes, you can shoot anyone in your corp (not NPC corp) anywhere. Does this tell you something? Perhaps that you should form a corp with people you trust?
Eve has an extremely good community. We get angry at each other, and we flame each other, but we do help new people. There are lots of help in this thread, but you chose to ignore it. Why won't YOU be mature enough and recognize help that is given.
/Ki
Thanks for your response, Re: your real world analogy, the way I see it, it would be more like walking down the street and spotting someone struggling to change a flat tire, if they asked for help, I would most likely give it to them, unless I had a good reason not to. Because I know myself what a pain it is to have to struggle through something like this on your own. It's probably not unheard of for someone to use a flat tire as an exploit to scam people but I'd think it was more the exception then the rule. In eve the opposite seems to be the case. I feel its a shame, seems you, like a lot of other people think this is a cool aspect of being a 'pvp intensive' game. Perhaps it's just something I'll have to get use to.
Re. Forming a corp with people you trust, I wrote that original message as a response to the whole "never trust anyone in Eve" attitude. There's a flaw in your logic it seems to go "Never trust anyone in Eve" ("Or as you put it "trust people at your own risk" / "Eve is not a game to be played solo"/ "Only form a corp with people you trust".
It's self defeating, when I read abut exploits like this it makes it very difficult to "trust people at my own risk", seems to foster a great deal of paranoia.
It wasn't my intention to ignore the help in the thread, some of it is indeed very useful I was merely pointing out that the attitude of extreme paranoia people advocate make new players very wary and some perceive it as a fairly major turn off. Again it's something that takes a big adjustment.
Edit: The post above mine, must of been posted as I was typing my response, sums up exactly what I was trying to illustrate. Thanks for being much for succinct and articulate then me
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Ki An
Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.07.13 12:45:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Norwood Franskly
Re. Forming a corp with people you trust, I wrote that original message as a response to the whole "never trust anyone in Eve" attitude. There's a flaw in your logic it seems to go "Never trust anyone in Eve" ("Or as you put it "trust people at your own risk" / "Eve is not a game to be played solo"/ "Only form a corp with people you trust".
It's self defeating, when I read abut exploits like this it makes it very difficult to "trust people at my own risk", seems to foster a great deal of paranoia.
There are loads of ways to get to know people and build trust gradually. That's the best way to go about it imo. I've only ever joined corps where I have friends or that I have heard a lot about. I would never join a corp that is completely unknown to me, because I just might get shafted if I do.
If I where to start over again, knowing noone, I would chat with people in NPC corp chat and in local, perhaps go on a mining trip (*shiver*) together, bond with people, and THEN form a corp. Actually, no, I would join an existing corp first, as a corp consisting of only new players would have a hard time defending itself.
It all boils down to trust and reputation. This is made possible by the one-world concept, but it also becomes a necessity. Some people don't like this, and they leave the game. Some thrive on it and they stay. I hope you are the latter one, but it is completely up to you.
/Ki
Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"! |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.07.13 12:50:00 -
[88]
STOP CALLING IT AN EXPLOIT
IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT
Also, all this whining about teamplay with strangers being nerfed due to this tactic... You do not have to join the other person's gang, and you do not have to fly a faction ship. Run the gang yourself, or fly a lesser ship, or drop from the gang en route... the only thing this tactic nerfs is stupidity. -
I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Norwood Franskly
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Posted - 2007.07.13 12:56:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Ki An
There are loads of ways to get to know people and build trust gradually. That's the best way to go about it imo. I've only ever joined corps where I have friends or that I have heard a lot about. I would never join a corp that is completely unknown to me, because I just might get shafted if I do.
If I where to start over again, knowing noone, I would chat with people in NPC corp chat and in local, perhaps go on a mining trip (*shiver*) together, bond with people, and THEN form a corp. Actually, no, I would join an existing corp first, as a corp consisting of only new players would have a hard time defending itself.
It all boils down to trust and reputation. This is made possible by the one-world concept, but it also becomes a necessity. Some people don't like this, and they leave the game. Some thrive on it and they stay. I hope you are the latter one, but it is completely up to you.
/Ki
Yeah thats good advice actually, I joined a corp with a lot of new players (a lot of who I met through the NPC chat channel). You are quite right we did (and I guess still are) having a hard time defending ourselves. We seemed to have pulled together a bit now and I'm quite enjoying myself.
I'll stop derailing this topic now but thanks again for the help/advice.
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Kuseka Adama
Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA
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Posted - 2007.07.13 13:08:00 -
[90]
Originally by: HostageTaker
Bow down before my elitist presence!! The BoB Gods demand this!!!
LMAO, gotta love cowardly alts!
I wont be a friggin coward. I think your view is idiotic at times. Honestly this is a damned shame. Personally though when my game is going anyone randomly messages me i tell them to bleep off and put them on ignore lists. If i am significantly annoyed at RL events i will go to my buds and see if we cant get a gang together to frag the SOB.
There are three words to live by in eve
Dont Trust Anybody.
While i love eve it is absurdly stupid this is forced to be the case but it is. Its ******* stupid honestly you its a real telling story on the state of the human race where people use a game to get their jollies off by hurting people. We got enough of these ****heads IRL and people decide 'OH i dont wanna go to jail i will just ruin people's fun in cyberspace i am committing crimes but I DONT GO TO JAIL!! WOOT.'
Friggin stupid i am not a carebear but this kind of philosophy within a game is just over the damned top. I shouldnt have to worry about those ganged with me locking my ass if i need to handle something. Allies are allies period.
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