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If you wanted to reduce blob warfare, why give Cyno Jammers 15m HP?

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Lilan Kahn Amarr The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.07.17 16:57:00 - [61] Originally by: Solid Wilko Originally by: Butter Dog CCP said that these changes were being made in part to combat Blob Warfare. The point we're making is that this does to do that. It actively encourages blob warfare. It does the opposite of what it is claimed to do. I completely agree that no competent, large alliance will have a problem throwing together a 100+ blob for a suprise attack. Hardly the point though, is it. Ahh my misunderstanding. I guess my next question is then what do you think is a fair amount of HP and the required gang size to take one of these bad boys out? 200k shields 7m armor shields of a large gun and 2 x the armor is fair. Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:01:00 - [62] Well this will be helpful because some allainces rely heavily on thier capital fleet, while having a small standard fleet. To be effective you will need both caps and a standard fleet to take a system . Do not read this thread!!!
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:23:00 - [63] Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 17/07/2007 17:25:10 Originally by: xRazoRx Edited by: xRazoRx on 17/07/2007 16:14:35 No chances of destoying a cloning service without a 50+ blob, as well. This is not true. One of our enemies has not had any station services at oe of their stations for days now. It was disabled with about 25 people in battleships and a few carriers using fighters assigned to support. Yes it takes a while, but if the pussies won't come out to fight, then at least we get to do something for the evening. Yes, to bring in carriers now we will have to destroy their cyno generator, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem with the right fleet. I do agree that the hit points are a bit high on all the POS modules. It takes more time to disable all the guns on a well armed POS then it does to destroy the POS itself, about double the time, and that after the POS is dead, you have to finish off all the guns and modules which takes way too long as well. Originally by: Princess Jodi Most of the replies seem to be taking the position of attacking the POS's. Please keep in mind that the POS is mainly a Defensive tool. Therefore they should be hard to kill. I've done a lot of POS fighting both before and after the patch. While I've seen the need for 100+ ships to kill off the remaining modules after a POS dies, I've also seen small numbers of ships camping a POS after all the guns were disabled. That was something that could not be done prior to the recent patch. Pre-Patch, you only attacked a POS when you KNEW you had enough Dreads to tank the damage. You only engaged those Dreads when you knew you had the system locked down by Support. Everything became 'how many dreads?' 'How many hardners?' 'Is system locked down?' Until these questions were answered sufficiently, nothing happened at all. When the prerquisites were in place, the POS simply became a speed bump - never killing anything and not being defended. It was the very definition of BORING. Now, small groups of ships can attack a gun or two and have an effect. Cyno Jammers/Jumpers can provide some safety in defending. People can shoot at Outpost facilites. All kinds of things are possible that were not before. For example, during the recent cleansing and restoration of Razor/MM space to its rightful owners, there was a POS on every single moon in oe-4. At the height of the battle, there was NOT A SINGLE GUN ONLINE AT ANY POS. Battles did occur during attempts to repair or destroy modules, and hostiles were literally camped in their own POS. It allowed for a nice, constant fight that involved everyone - something not possible during the prior Dread-only POS siege tactics. So I say I fully support the new rules. POS structures should be very, very hard to kill. Just be glad that you don't have to have a Dread to partake in territory conquest anymore. I agree with the above post. I like all the changes as they have given many people a lot more to do without relying on capital ships all the time, but I still think all the POS guns and modules have too much HP. They could be reduced by 50% and still be plenty strong, at least a 25% reduction in HP to start would be fine. RISE Recruitment Thread
Thoric Frosthammer Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:29:00 - [64] Just to clarify some of the discussions here about cyno jammers and what they do and don't do based on experimentation: 1) They DO block all cynos, friendly or unfriendly. 2) They DON'T block the permanent cyno arrays anchored at POS's or Jump Bridges. 3) Cyno Arrays require level 2 sov, Jump Bridges require level 3. Cyno Jammers require high level sov too. So, what you're likely to see is single well defended home constellations, and some jump bridges in systems around the perimeter of their claimed space leading to and from that well defended home constellation. You probably won't see 0.0 completely coated in the things. As such, I don't see a good reason why gank gangs should be able to run in and take out cyno gens just for griefing. I'm ok with it taking a sizable gang. It doesn't reduce blob warfare, true, but I don't see any way to make small group sov warfare really workable without making it too difficult to hold space, which discourages anyone from investing in 0.0 infrastructure at all. Besides, i don't think the new pos's were created to improve "small gang" warfare as much as "small ship" warfare. IE, give someone besides caps a role in taking out poses, rather than support just camping gates for hours.
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:30:00 - [65] Originally by: CCP Oveur I believe you are confusing the destruction of them with the disabling of them. The structure gets a 90% resist bonus from the control tower, which you need to take out to destroy it. To disable it's effect, you simply need to go through the shield and armor, see patch notes. we destroyed a pos with a cyno generator array... the control tower went down faster then the cyno module... it has : 1mil hp shields 15mil hp armor and it doesn't say how much structure it has. but as i already said... the tower was already dead, but it took us 3 hours shooting it with 40 battleships to take down the module... i wish i was exadurating, but i'm not. i think the entire module has 31mil hp, OR it doesn't lost it's structure bonus when the control tower blows to bits... ------------- CCP employee: "look this is broken, lets fix it" later: "\o/ yay, fixed" result: the thing that was broken is still broken, in the process they also broke some other stuff... THNX!!
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 17:57:00 - [66] Originally by: midge Mo'yb i dont htink the idea was for 15man corps to come topple a 1000+ man alliance.... Actually that was exactly what was promised and then it was changed to words like castle/fortification/moat/impervious. Welcome to WoW-online. :) Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.17 18:06:00 - [67] Originally by: CCP Oveur I believe you are confusing the destruction of them with the disabling of them. The structure gets a 90% resist bonus from the control tower, which you need to take out to destroy it. To disable it's effect, you simply need to go through the shield and armor, see patch notes. 25-30 bs's with 5-10 support remote repping ship to survive a large deatstar pos + another 30 support ships is for you a small gang ? Tell the thruth, you are playing in GoonSwarm on TQ, right ? Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ.
Butter Dog The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.07.17 18:22:00 - [68] Originally by: ghosttr Well this will be helpful because some allainces rely heavily on thier capital fleet, while having a small standard fleet. To be effective you will need both caps and a standard fleet to take a system In other words: two blobs rather than one. What a great improvement. ---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
Varrakk Chosen Path FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 19:11:00 - [69] They have no sense of proportions with these "no-need-for-a-blob" addons. Say you actually have the 50-70 BS's needed to take out cloning service on a station. Think about the poor SOB's that have to spend 2days or more repping it..
xRazoRx The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2007.07.17 20:04:00 - [70] They have to undock some time to defend it ffs! And, if you could take down a service with 10 bs in 10 minutes then ppl would undock for a fair fight, because mostly there are 10+ sitting docked and loaded... With torpedoes though Death is only the beginning...
Gutsani D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:12:00 - [71] I havnt actually had the chance to test this on the test server, since i didnt have sov there. But from the description, this is a "i win"-scenario. 1) anchor cyno generator 2) anchor cyno jammer 3) aquire or have titan 4) win eve cyno jammers stop cyno's at the end of their cycle time, the cyno generator module has no cycle time and stays active for as long as the pos is online. i assume it is not affected by the cyno jammer, i do however not believe you can activate a new one as long as the cyno jammer is active. so, you have to bring 500 bs's to destroy the cyno jammer in a reasonable ammount of time, near a deadstar pos, with faction warp scramblers and disrupters (read as, lose alot of battleships) for even having a chance for attacking their pos's, and they can just jump in the titan and blow up your whole fleet. i have said this more then a month ago already, about time you guys woke up. btw, desync was not a bug, it was an anti blob feature.
Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:14:00 - [72] If you've removed the obligation to deploy capital ships, you have decreased the "blobbing" intrinsic to POS warfare already. It used to be that you absolutely needed to have capital ships if you wanted to have an effect of any kind on an enemy's assets, that being contesting their sovereignty claim and taking the station. Capital ships are expensive, and stations and the things people keep in them can be almost priceless, so both sides will bring absolutely everything they can to protect their own assets, which leads to stuffing as many people as possible into a system, or, "blobbing", as I guess its called. But now, with the Starbase 2.0 changes, people can effect another's assets in a way that is not "all-or-nothing" (taking the station away) and the risk involved is much lower (individuals can protect their own subcapital ships better than a fleet can protect sieged dreadnoughts). Since people are not as compelled to bring everything to bear, that means less blobbing. You can see it however you want to, but since Rev 2.0, there has actually been substantially less blobbing than before. But when it comes to station service and POS module HP, you have to remember that these things aren't mediated by stront timers and reinforced mode like POSes. You can lower the HP of POS batteries to a certain degree and that could be fine, but station services - and especially vitally important ones like the medical bay and fitting hangar - have to have huge amounts of hitpoints, at least for now. Otherwise, you'll get the "timezone advantage/disadvantage" thing that people complain about even worse. Maybe you could lower the HP at some point down the line, but right now, EVE isn't ready for it. Also, I do think there's a bug with POS turret batteries where they don't lose their resistances after the control tower is destroyed. They should lose their hull resistances once the control tower is down, but I'm not sure if they really do that. It takes forever to destroy just one Medium Beam Laser Battery, and that's even after the tower is gone.
Freaky Bare Blueprint Haus Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:21:00 - [73] Originally by: Thoric Frosthammer [good stuff] Besides, i don't think the new pos's were created to improve "small gang" warfare as much as "small ship" warfare. IE, give someone besides caps a role in taking out poses, rather than support just camping gates for hours. This is the first explanation of the 'anti-blog' concept that has made ANY sense to me. CCP - edit all your blogs. I can finally participate. My Hound was doing BIG damage on one the other day. (I don't fly BS in PVP, so I brought a Hound. It was pretty effective.)
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:25:00 - [74] 23 minutes for battleships? how long does it take to take out all the guns? 4 hours? I thought the cyno jammer was suppose to be fragile. like 10 mil hp not 16mil wait does that give it more hp than a titan? ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:29:00 - [75] It sounds reasonable to me that it should take a 20 man fleet 20 mins to bring down a cyno. That is not exactly that long, and 20 ships isn't that much if you're talking about attacking an important system. The cyno jammers should be expensive though. Should be something important. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:31:00 - [76] Originally by: Frug It sounds reasonable to me that it should take a 20 man fleet 20 mins to bring down a cyno. That is not exactly that long, and 20 ships isn't that much if you're talking about attacking an important system. The cyno jammers should be expensive though. Should be something important. good point... even a 40 man fleet isn't too bad. 10 mins. then captipal warp. but I agree this isn't much better blob wise. I mean why not just come in and use 5 bombers on the 20 battleships. BAM and it's over. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:34:00 - [77] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Frug It sounds reasonable to me that it should take a 20 man fleet 20 mins to bring down a cyno. That is not exactly that long, and 20 ships isn't that much if you're talking about attacking an important system. The cyno jammers should be expensive though. Should be something important. good point... even a 40 man fleet isn't too bad. 10 mins. then captipal warp. but I agree this isn't much better blob wise. I mean why not just come in and use 5 bombers on the 20 battleships. BAM and it's over. Not if you divide each battleship in to four groups of ten ships each firing on a different gun on a different area of the POS. Thus these stealth bombers break up blobs. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.07.17 21:56:00 - [78] It sounds like most people complaining about how hard POS mods and outpost services are appear to want o be able to wipe out all offensive structures in an entire system in a single nights attack. It should take awhile to take out POS and outpost services.. they are huge structures.. a 20 BS fleet shouldn't be able to take out an outpost service in less then an hour. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.17 22:03:00 - [79] The way I see it, nothing changes, except the game becomes a tad bit more long-hauled. Anyone who dedicates enough time to bring in capitals always commit blobs (support fleet) to defend them. This has always been the issue, except for the case of the capital blobs which now can't just jump in and do whatever they want, they need to have support ships that work for them. A properly defended system, with proper deathstars will still require blobs. These changes didn't add nor substract to that. It only made the capital blobs less of a win-button. And the illusion of 15BS taking over a well-defended outpost system? Who -really- thought that ever would happen? - Recruitment open again-
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.07.17 23:30:00 - [80] Originally by: FireFoxx80 - Using small ships to make guns run out of ammo I've tried this one. Citadel launcher: capacity: 4500 m3 rate of fire: 24 Ammo size: 0.3m3 Now, according to my calculator, that's 15000 torps, at 2.5/minute. Or... about 100 hours of firing time. Or just for _real_ amusement value, a cruise launcher has 3500m capacity, and cruises are 0.05. I make that 466 hours of firing time. The situation is a little less ludicrous when you're looking at turret batteries, admittedly - a large rail will hold about 1600 rounds, which is good for around 6.5 hours. A large blaster battery coming in at 13.5 hours. Even so, it's stretching the realms of feasibility. I've no idea how long laser batteries will fire for, but given I've been shot by incapacitated POS guns, I wouldn't rely on them running out of ammo at all.
Gutsani D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.18 00:02:00 - [81] Alot of the people commenting on this thread have generally no idea what they are talking about. Have never tried to assault a pos in a battleship fleet, or an idea how long it takes to destroy 16m hitpoints. Let stand an idea how hard those pos's hit your battleships, and with a char with the starbase management skill i can assure you; it hurts. Anyway, that cyno jammer module is probably well overpowered, along with the invulnerability of system at constellation sov. Actually, all those pos modules have way to much health. Its a time sink, not an anti-blob change.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 01:02:00 - [82] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin The way I see it, nothing changes, except the game becomes a tad bit more long-hauled. Anyone who dedicates enough time to bring in capitals always commit blobs (support fleet) to defend them. This has always been the issue, except for the case of the capital blobs which now can't just jump in and do whatever they want, they need to have support ships that work for them. A properly defended system, with proper deathstars will still require blobs. These changes didn't add nor substract to that. It only made the capital blobs less of a win-button. And the illusion of 15BS taking over a well-defended outpost system? Who -really- thought that ever would happen? Dont think it was one of you guys, you have learned by now. Took several tries though . Do not read this thread!!!
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.18 03:03:00 - [83] It seems like the recent changes to territory control and POS wars greatly favor the defenders. Basically, everyone who managed to grab the most space pre-patch can now enjoy a gradual solidifying of their territory. It becomes extremely hard to shift the borders. No doubt, everyone will spam cyno-jammers in all the systems they currently control. I think that at the very least, for sake of game balance and fun, CCP should discourage cyno-jammer spamming by making cyno-jammer consume fuel that costs about 250 mil per day. That's right, 250 mil per day. That way these things are used when they are really needed, and not simply spammed in every possible system.
Calisto Cody Minmatar The Black Swan Society	Posted - 2007.07.18 03:44:00 - [84] Originally by: Calisto Cody Snip Please do not spam -Yipsilanti ([email protected]) eh? laughing is spam now >.< , not quite sure what to say to that... Originally by: "Orestes Umnon" An easy way to spot when isk farmers are mad: they stop using broken english and just start spamming boxes at you, with random punctuation sprinked here and there
Butter Dog The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.07.18 07:07:00 - [85] Originally by: Ephemeron It seems like the recent changes to territory control and POS wars greatly favor the defenders. Basically, everyone who managed to grab the most space pre-patch can now enjoy a gradual solidifying of their territory. It becomes extremely hard to shift the borders. No doubt, everyone will spam cyno-jammers in all the systems they currently control. I think that at the very least, for sake of game balance and fun, CCP should discourage cyno-jammer spamming by making cyno-jammer consume fuel that costs about 250 mil per day. That's right, 250 mil per day. That way these things are used when they are really needed, and not simply spammed in every possible system. This idea is actually quite good. The main problem with the cyno jammers at the moment seem to be; * Way too many HP - encourages the uberblob * Too cheap to buy and run * Only requires Sov 3 which is frankly pretty easy to get * Too easy to fit (ie you can still arm the POS to slaughter BS fleets) If the HP was halved to say 7.5m, that would still be a challenge to a large BS group at a well armed POS. Doubtless you would still lose ships. Also make them loads more expensive (costing in the billions), increase the sov requirements, and ramp up fitting reqs. Then you still have a very powerful module, but not one which will just be spammed in every Sov 3 system without a second thought. ---------- signature removed - please do not discuss moderation in your signature graphic - Jacques([email protected])
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.18 07:46:00 - [86] What if the fitting requirements for them were doubled? That would certainly mean that alliances would have to dedicate an undefended Medium POS, or a poorly defended Large POS; rather than some of the deathstar POS setups we're all thinking about. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.07.18 08:01:00 - [87] there are no faction cyno arrays, are there...? -
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.07.18 08:15:00 - [88] I think people are too much in the old ways of doing warfare here. I see it more turning into a medieval siege. And medieval sieges were not about arriving on day one, setting up a catapult on day 2, and breaching the walls on day 3 to pillage and burn the castle. If I had to take a system under the new rules, this is what would happen. Week before attack: deploy forces and organise logistics in an area. Day 1. Deploy a POS 1 system out of the target station, try to secure space superiority in the target system. No capitals. No POS fights. If there are free moons, deploy a POS there as well. Make sure to have enough POS guns and people who can use them to make a defending dreadforce pay a heavy price for trying to kill the POS. Day 2. Assuming that superiority has been established, disable all station services. Scout all enemy POS, look for weak ones, with poor gun layouts. Scout the POS with the cynojammer. Day 3. Start engaging the cynotower. Either shoot the cynojammer directly, or focus on killing small guns to reduce their strength. Under the current conditions, because the cynojammer is active, your enemy can't jump in capitals either. So supply can be interdicted again, unless he wants to make himself vulnerable to a quick jumpin with capitals. Day 4-5-6. Continue degrading the defenses of various POS, have capitals on standby to jumpin if the enemy ever drops the cynojammer to let his own capitals come in. Slowly build up ships in the target system, looking for weakspots to destroy in your enemies POS. Lots of diversion tactics, trying to suddenly show up at hostile POS with a fleet to try and destroy 1 gun before the POS guns turn your fleet to dust. Day 7-14. Once you have degraded defenses enough, you make an attack on their Cynojammer POS, and take it out. Since that would happen at a time where you are prepared for it, subsequently you can jump in your capital fleet and start pounding POS. Either you commit your dreads to the fight (and make them logout in system) or risk having to redo a lot of the previous damage you did because they repair their defenses and put up a new cynojammer in the system. Importante Note! This means diversion tactics become much more important, and allies can help you by attacking the hostiles elsewhere. Imagine your enemy has just breached your cynojammer after a week of hard fighting, and jumps his 30 dreads into your system, determined to wipe you out over the next week. One of your allies uses that moment to invade the enemy home system, and breaks the cynojammer of your enemy. They will have to choose between retreating to defend themselves, and thus giving up all their progress, or risk losing one of their own systems to an attack. Under the old system, they would just jump back for a day, blow up any hostiles and be back the next day to finish you off. With sieging becoming harder, and requiring lots of subsequent steps, forces have to be more committed to finishing a job and not just prance around at will on the map from east to west and north to south. Most of the complaints I see are like the generals from World War I, complaining how machine guns are ruining warfare since a good direct assault with infantry just ain't effective anymore in taking those enemy fortifications. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.07.18 09:26:00 - [89] Originally by: Butter Dog They are the first things you will need to knock out when attacking a POS. Please explain to me exactly how you can disable those things at a well armed deathstar without a massive fleet of battleships, in an acceptable timeframe? This just doesnt seem to be at all consistent in the context of 'reducing blob warfare'. It is going to make uberblobs 100% essential when everyone and their dog has cyno jammers up in system. And smaller alliances can FORGET IT, unless they want to lose repeated fleets. The only way to get around it without an uberblob is to rely on a crappy POS setup. Everything this bloody games done in the past two years is make thing better for the alliances. They dont care one jot about the little man. SKUNK Originally by: Fink Angel They acted like Mr. Creasote at the all you can eat buffet, and CCP provided the Wafer Theeen Mint.
Karunel Princeps Corp YouWhat	Posted - 2007.07.18 10:23:00 - [90] Originally by: Malachon Draco Good post Agreed, nicely writen! ____ Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.

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