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SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:35:00 - [61] Originally by: LMAAAOOOO Use freight containers, no one can see what is inside you, or use courier. outdated info - no longer true ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Whip Slagcheek	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:48:00 - [62] I really don't understand people asking for suicide ganking to be nerfed / CONCORD needs to be boosted. They just did a MAJOR boost to CONCORD. Before the boost, your drones would still do damage. Now your drones are worthless once CONCORD arrives. You are instantly jammed so you can't fire anymore. Your cap is drained so you can't smartbomb and CONCORD hits for as much as 7k a shot. The only reason the ganking works is due to CONCORD response time. CCP designed CONCORD to have a delayed response (as shown by the variable delay according to security status). If CCP didn't want ganking, they could just make it so you couldn't activate weapons on a non-valid target. CCP implemented suicide ganking as a feature. It's always been here and it always will be a part of EVE. Quit complaining about a FEATURE. If you don't like a feature of a game, you're playing the wrong game.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:57:00 - [63] Originally by: Inevitability I didn't lose anything...wasn't me. I just saw it happen and think its crap. It would be different if a freighter could fit a tank, like a capital armor rep. Drones should be jammed by CONCORD and the fuzz should have a faster response time. So how do you know the freighter wasn't a war target if it wasn't you? I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:57:00 - [64] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: LMAAAOOOO Use freight containers, no one can see what is inside you, or use courier. outdated info - no longer true Actually, it was never true, save for the imaginations of some forum posters. I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.23 04:04:00 - [65] insurance for ganking will not be removed as it has been said already that just like the market - the insurance is regardless of your history simply said avoid high traffic areas and do what it takes - even if by some definitions it might be exploiting high sec will never be carebear hug hug land ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.07.23 04:17:00 - [66] I care... Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.23 05:44:00 - [67] Originally by: Rid*** Valer* Suicide ganks demend on an alpha-strike big enough to overwhelm the tank. Escorts won't do much, as if they engage, 1 less suicider won't do anything, and concord will kill the escort. Defensive formations would fix a lot of this. Where an escort ship could hit "Escort Target" and actually put their ship in between it any enemy ships, taking some of the damage. This is very untrue, you need one frigate to stop suicide gankers. You will lose the frigate in the process, but all you need is one. Frighter suicde gankers depend on concord not being able to get all the drones jammed. Concord jams the domis/myrmidons. Such all you need is a way to break the lock of drones[sensor strength 1] with 100% reliability. Drones orbit at about 1km from the target. ECM burst has a 7.5 base strength and a 5k or so range. As soon as the suicide gankers release their drones onto the freighter, ECM burst the drones. Concord will likly kill you, but the drones will lose lock and not be able to reaquire due to the burst which means the freighter will survive. You have successfully stoped a suicde gank on a freighter.
Xtreem Gallente Scientific Creative Underworld Mafia	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:10:00 - [68] the simple fact is, if someone is hauling enough isks worth of stuff in a freighter though empire that it becomes value for money to gank it, there is the problem right there, split it up into loads and do it that way... easy!
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:22:00 - [69] Quote: Freighters are meant to be escorted Ya and wtf is your escort going to do lol. Watch you die. WOOT great game mechanic there. Here is a question who is escorting the suicde gankers in their cheap worthless completely inept combat set up ships? Oh ya noone because they are able to exploit the safety of a silly game mechanics being noone will suicide on them because there is no profit. Seems we have a balance problem. The day you need to actually put out some dough to equip a ship properly to suicide gank is the day you might be able to justify it in the risk reward universe of EVE. Until then it is a simple game exploit where everyone loves to try to suggest empire isnt ment to be 100% safe yet IT IS FOR SUICIDE GANKERS! so how do we make then vulnerable?
Whineroy	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:25:00 - [70] Originally by: SiJira high sec will never be carebear hug hug land Oh, but it already is that... For the suicide gankers themselves. Especially if/when those said gankers are financed by alts, which allows them to mock the whole concept of risk-and-reward even more.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:31:00 - [71] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 crap You do understand what 'suicide' means don't you? The fact that people choose to make suicide a profitable business for others is not CCP's concern really. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:33:00 - [72] Originally by: Foxy CEO Originally by: Sorja Solution? Easy: no insurance payout for high-sec ganking and immediate -5.0 security status for gankers. Insurance isn't an issue. T1 domis are dirt cheap and if you're carrying enough in a manner that a suicide gank squad can get together ahead of your route and set up the trap to gank you, their insurance payout is likely a small fraction of their expected profit. -5.0 is also a non-solution. It's the pilot's negligence that got his freighter ganked so isolating his gankers for special treatment is idiotic. If you want to give everyone who gets concordokkened -5.0, good luck with that. What should happen (but doesn't) is a loss of faction standing for aggression in high sec. Faction standing loss is harder to recover from than security standing loss and will eventually prevent the ganker from loitering at gates. Quote: loss of faction standing Beautiful idea and decidedly appropriate. You pirate in the territory of a empire, you get a hit with that empire. Security standing loss is easy to recover (it can require a long time, but the basic action is simple) and doing that is even rewarding. Recovering faction standing is hard and beyond a specific point almost impossible. So the ganker need to make a choice and a long term commitment, something that most high sec pirate don't want to do. With all the "hard men" arguments they use, in reality they want the cake and and eating it (i.e. easy access to all empire advantages and at the same time no problem pirating in high sec).
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:38:00 - [73] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 crap You do understand what 'suicide' means don't you? The fact that people choose to make suicide a profitable business for others is not CCP's concern really. Suicide means they die and NOT RETURN FROM THE GRAVE. So suicide gankers is a misnomer. It is only that self-destructing gankers don't ring so well. Or maybe we can use throw away ship gankers? Essentially the character get no bad effect beside a little sec hit. It is only the instrument (the ship) that is destroyed.
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:42:00 - [74] Originally by: R3dSh1ft Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted QFT damage is greater than tank in all cases, and without the ability to actively engage the enemy (as its high sec) freighters are defenseless against suicide ganks - the only way to avoid it is fly with less value in your freighter! That'll be that risk/reward thing we keep hearing so much about then... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:44:00 - [75] Originally by: Xtreem the simple fact is, if someone is hauling enough isks worth of stuff in a freighter though empire that it becomes value for money to gank it, there is the problem right there, split it up into loads and do it that way... easy! Depends what the amount really is. Anyone care to do the maths ? Well I'll do some. Hypothesis : - Refitting a domi with t1 equipment costs 15 million taking insurance into account, - 20 domi = 1 dead freighter, - 2/3 of the freighter loot is lost on exploding, - suiciders are failing 50% of the time. Calculations : The value of the cargo needs to be : 15 * 20 / (1/3) * (1/2) = 1800 million. Conclusion : Assuming the freighter is full at 750 000 m3, transporting anything whose average value is worth more than 2400 isk / m3 the limit for profitable ganks. Now, feel free to tweak the numbers... I don't know if the numbers I used are good or off-chart. Then consider if stuff worth 2400 isk / m3 is t2 goods or t1 goods. If my numbers are correct - which they probably are, now we need to know by how much, transporting any mineral more expensive than mexalion and most t1 goods in large quantities is asking to be killed. Final question : is that balanced, or not ? Have fun ! -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstra
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:33:00 - [76] Originally by: GPerson Originally by: Tarminic Solution: Next freight you fly, fill it half with valuables and the other half with shuttles. No one will DARE suicide you. I smell a winner. What I smell is the ban stick. intentionnally creating lag (and lag-bombs) is against EULA. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:39:00 - [77] This thread is a bit out of date. That 'shuttle trick' is not working for a while already. Last I heard about it freighters now drop freighter sized wrek (just one wrek, not 500 shuttles) out of what you can scoop your loot. You can even use your own freighter to pick up the loot as I understand. And on other hand CONCORD now spanks your drones also so using 20 dominix battleships as suicide gank squad is no longer as effective as it used to be. Thats why you see freighters dying a lot less than they used to die right after they started to drop loot. Then again perhaps I just dreamed it all up thinking I read forums as I don't have personal experience in freighter ganking in hi sec.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:41:00 - [78] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: GPerson Originally by: Tarminic Solution: Next freight you fly, fill it half with valuables and the other half with shuttles. No one will DARE suicide you. I smell a winner. What I smell is the ban stick. intentionnally creating lag (and lag-bombs) is against EULA. Except that no longer works as the ships will remain inside the wreck and not in space. The only way to use a ship in the loot is to drag it to a hauler/freighter and unload it in a station. We're sorry, something happened.
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:43:00 - [79] Escort it all you want, if you attack a ganker, you just got Concorded. The whole thing stinks.... You simply brought the pirates into Empire and made a 1 bil cap ship worthless... Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Granmethedon III High4Life	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:54:00 - [80] I really wonder why some people play games....
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:59:00 - [81] If freighters are given any low slots it will not take long until we see carrier fleets all over empire as expanded cargoholds will push the cargo space past the magic 1mill m3 mark. One option would be to introduce a remote damage control unit so a support ship could bump up the hull resists of freighters in need. We're sorry, something happened.
Taikun Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:00:00 - [82] Originally by: Terminus adacai Escort it all you want, if you attack a ganker, you just got Concorded. The whole thing stinks.... You simply brought the pirates into Empire and made a 1 bil cap ship worthless... First part.. /agree. Second part about worthless... /kinda agree. You can still AFK haul crap loads on mins with near 100% safety in empire. More expensive loads (greater than a billion) you run the risk of getting ganked. I personally believe the trade off should be more akin to a 5 billion load to make the freighter more useful. But as it stands freighters are not useless. They are a boon for manufacturers or traders who deal in large loads on inexpensive minerals. Taikun ----------------------------------- For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good.
Poke InTheEye Anti-BoB Flash Mob	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:03:00 - [83] I say you give freighters one bomb launcher for defense, and you allow them to use it in empire. NO BOB!!!!
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:05:00 - [84] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: SiJira Originally by: LMAAAOOOO Use freight containers, no one can see what is inside you, or use courier. outdated info - no longer true Actually, it was never true, save for the imaginations of some forum posters. Actually, it was true. A dev even posted to confirm that originally it did scan into cargo containers, then someone changed something that broke it, and that he was going to fix it back again. Then of course there is the entry in the 33752 patch notes: Quote: Cargo scans will correctly scan cargo containers inside cargoholds Which kinda implies that they weren't doing so before Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Assuming the freighter is full at 750 000 m3, transporting anything whose average value is worth more than 2400 isk / m3 the limit for profitable ganks. Now, feel free to tweak the numbers... I don't know if the numbers I used are good or off-chart. Then consider if stuff worth 2400 isk / m3 is t2 goods or t1 goods. If my numbers are correct - which they probably aren't, now we need to know by how much, transporting any mineral more expensive than mexalion and most t1 goods in large quantities is asking to be killed. Final question : is that balanced, or not ? You're the first person I've seen in one of these threads to actually pose the real question on this issue. Suicide ganking is a valid part of the security model for empire space. A hauler can choose not to make themselves a target simply by choosing their cargo load appropriately to stay below the ganking profitability threshold. The only issue is whether the threshold of profitability is in the right place. However, I would also suggest not limiting yourself to examining the case where the entire freighter's hold is filled. You don't have to fill a freighter to the top to make the freighter more effective than other hauling options. Consider if you only put 300,000 m3 of stuff in it. The next highest capacity ship (discounting carriers as this is empire space) is a massively expanded occator, which will need at least 7 trips to move the same amount. In my experience an expanded occator is nowhere near 7 times faster than a freighter, so the freighter would still be the superior option, even though it's not being used to it's full capacity. Sure, you're then not using the full capacity of a freighter. But then should you expect to? Freighters are bulk ships for moving bulk material, not super-haulers designed to move an empire's worth of high-value goods at once (at lesat not safely). You could also consider typical usage scenarios to examine for balance. Lets take an example of someone hauling minerals to fuel a raven-building business. Assuming a perfect build, simply beacuse those are the numbers I have to hand, each raven requires 101045.37 m3 of minerals. IIRC this corresponds to about 90mill total mineral value, for a value density of 891 isk/m3. So based on your numbers, and hauling mixed loads, he would be well within the safety limit. Now, a freighter can haul about 10 raven's worth of trit in one load. The trit haul is easily below the gank threshold. Everything else would then take approx 250,000m3 as a small second load. If you look to fuel even larger operations, then the trit is still fine. The pyer and mex can be done in bulk trips ok, especially if you mix the two or just go for 90% capacity on the mex to be safe. Everything nocx and above is so small it would probably be more effectively moved by T2 transport ship anyway. Isogen looks to be the mineral on the tipping point - either you'd go with several transport trips, or a freighter with only around 200k m3 in it. Or you just seed the iso in with your loads of trit r pyer so the value densities average out to something that's safe. Certainly for minerals, because usage goes down as value goes up, mixing loads to keep the average value down is a very effective tactic. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:34:00 - [85] Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/07/2007 10:33:58 Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! I celebrate this downing of a fat cats isk printer. One less freighter - is 50 more little man traders who can stand a chance of competing and turning a profit in the hauling trade. I hope it was an alliance freighter. SKUNK Originally by: Fink Angel They acted like Mr. Creasote at the all you can eat buffet, and CCP provided the Wafer Theeen Mint.
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:48:00 - [86] hmmm gang with 2 BCs ? one with armor res link and other with shield res link ? cheap and somewhat effective. I know it will only delay the end, but the delay may be the crucial factor in your favor. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:52:00 - [87] As a freighter pilot: Anyone who is stupid enough to fly a freighter unescorted through the Niarja bottleneck while carrying enough goods to make the gank worthwhile deserves to be shot out of the sky. A .5 system that's in the middle of the Jita >>> Amarr corridor, while the rest of the run is primarily .7 and higher. Gee, where's the gatecamp going to be? Oh, and speaking of the Jita >>> Amarr corridor, got to watch a gank squad get the snot CONCORD-ed out of them at the Perimeter >>> Jita gate tonight... that was high entertainment.
Kindakrof Caldari Cruor Frater Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:52:00 - [88] Originally by: Tortun Nahme adapt or die Best quote this month ADAPT OR DIE!!! --- --- ---
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:53:00 - [89] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/07/2007 10:53:55 Originally by: Matthew And you are the first person I see actually trying to see how to play with values in order to see the limit in gank profitability. And as much as I like your thinking and example, it's precisely examples like that I'm missing. Well, I could take a few hours to do the math in order to precisely calculate when and how suicide ganking works (or not). However, I simply lack knowledge about the game to further refine it. Here is what I would need to do that. I can find some of it, but not all. Examples : - average mineral value of a ship's materials, or components (it's good to know that ravens can be transfered with little danger), - average value of a selection of popular mods (weapons, ammo, modules, actually since I just don't know what the most used t1 modules are), - average value of rig components (probably off the chart, this one I can find by myself though), - compressing mechanics. I heard people compress minerals by making them into modules with lower volume... I'd like a few of them to get their average values... - number of ships needed to gank in different security statuses (.5, .6, .7, .8, .9 and 1), - different gank builds, cost and effectiveness. I'll be asking around for those, but it would help if others also did their part. And then it'll be possible to see whether suicide ganking is balanced or not. However, I must admit that I don't have the required connections to find all data by myself. And this thread proves once again (that wasn't really needed) that troolls would rather pointlessly smack each other than trying to calculate whether their opponents are wrong or they are. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstra
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:19:00 - [90] I told my GF about this thread (along the lines of how the forum is mainly full of "I want this changing to suit me" threads), and she wanted me to ask if I can have your stuff? Anyway, to answer your question! There's nothing for CCP to fix, it's the bloody point of EVE. Rash.

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