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Inevitability Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:11:00 - [1] Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! *Please Contact In-Game For Winning Bids*
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:12:00 - [2] they aren't adapt or die Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Nickhastapee Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:12:00 - [3] Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! Fix what?
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:13:00 - [4] Stop the presses! CONCORD didn't save someone's ship! ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:15:00 - [5] gankwhines mean instant forum gank Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Caiman Graystock The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:16:00 - [6] What's the myth people perpetuate that 0.5 and above means you are invulnerable and the police will prevent any and every crime instantly as it happens- just like they do in the real world, eh?
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:17:00 - [7] So what'd ya lose? That system is camped a fair bit in my limited experience.
Inevitability Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:23:00 - [8] I didn't lose anything...wasn't me. I just saw it happen and think its crap. It would be different if a freighter could fit a tank, like a capital armor rep. Drones should be jammed by CONCORD and the fuzz should have a faster response time. *Please Contact In-Game For Winning Bids*
lofty29 Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:25:00 - [9] Freighters are meant to be escorted --- Project Mayhem WTS : Faction Lewt
Nickhastapee Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Inevitability I didn't lose anything...wasn't me. I just saw it happen and think its crap. It would be different if a freighter could fit a tank, like a capital armor rep. Drones should be jammed by CONCORD and the fuzz should have a faster response time. I believe they are, they changed that, everything is jammed/neuted.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:28:00 - [11] Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted QFT ____________________ Hi. I'm not an alt :)
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:30:00 - [12] CONCORD already hit for wtfbbq damage, nos, jam, kill drones, certainly better than any real life police agency you will find. Their response times are already unrealistic, we don't need any more buffs. If you are transporting something worth getting 20 people together to gank you, it might be a wise idea to have a scout + escort. we ran outta cowbell.
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:45:00 - [13] I hope never, bad enough these freighter jockey's singlehandedly destroyed all trading routes so badly CCP had to change the basics on how npc market works. The more they pop, the better. If you dont like it, go out of the freighter to jita buissness and start building them.
Sean Dillon Caldari Naughty 40	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:51:00 - [14] Edited by: Sean Dillon on 22/07/2007 20:51:44 I hope there is a killmail of this posted somewhere.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:52:00 - [15] Solution: Next freight you fly, fill it half with valuables and the other half with shuttles. No one will DARE suicide you. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:01:00 - [16] answer = remove freighters from game. simple. i mean we havent always had them so whats the problem?
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! Wasn't the Charon you bought from Veto Logistics by any chance was it? >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
Nickhastapee Maelstrom Crew	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Verone Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! Wasn't the Charon you bought from Veto Logistics by any chance was it? LOL Anyway, does anybody have a link to the kill?
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:07:00 - [19] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted QFT damage is greater than tank in all cases, and without the ability to actively engage the enemy (as its high sec) freighters are defenseless against suicide ganks - the only way to avoid it is fly with less value in your freighter! DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Ozzie Asrail Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:09:00 - [20] I dunno. Feighters shouldn't need escorting all the time, things like capship and even jsut bs production pretty much requires a frieghter. If People want to de-lag core empire then frieghters are pretty much a core ship for helping with that. On the other hand i think the fix CCP did was pretty much spot on regarding the drone jamming and the fact that concord are slow to react is whats supposed to happen in a 0.5. Just out of interest how many ships were attacking it? -----
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:14:00 - [21] There is a counter. Full Slave set, with a command ship alt with those gang armor bonus thingies along with maxed skills to get the most benefit from them.
Santa Anna Caldari Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:19:00 - [22] Originally by: R3dSh1ft Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted QFT damage is greater than tank in all cases, and without the ability to actively engage the enemy (as its high sec) freighters are defenseless against suicide ganks - the only way to avoid it is fly with less value in your freighter! Don't undock with it if you can't afford to lose it. That includes your cargo. _____ CPU Love
Gner Dechast Gallente Flashman Services	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:20:00 - [23] Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! I label you as "Group B" toon. Shame on you!
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:22:00 - [24] Originally by: voogru There is a counter. Full Slave set, with a command ship alt with those gang armor bonus thingies along with maxed skills to get the most benefit from them. That or a 3x SBII rapier/huggy bear corpmate.
Raevenor GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:23:00 - [25] Oh man someone lost a freighter in empire? Talk about owned.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail I dunno. Feighters shouldn't need escorting all the time They only need to be escorted when full of delicious stuff. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:58:00 - [27] Originally by: Nickhastapee Originally by: Inevitability I didn't lose anything...wasn't me. I just saw it happen and think its crap. It would be different if a freighter could fit a tank, like a capital armor rep. Drones should be jammed by CONCORD and the fuzz should have a faster response time. I believe they are, they changed that, everything is jammed/neuted. Interesting name. That like your "I'm AFK" character? Anyway, the real problem is people's perceptions of things. Everyone seems to think that there's a high contrast switch between .4 and .5 systems. High danger in one and nearing complete safety in the other by just increasing the system security +.1. It's the slowness of CONCORD responses that make .5 and .6 systems kind of the ghettos of highsec. So if there's a "problem to be fixed", it's the misconceptions of alot of players imo. I think quite a large percentage of the playerbase expect .5 through 1.0 security space to be more or less the same as far as their safety goes. Incidents like this make it obvious that it isn't. So perhaps CCP needs to look to the tutorials or something to raise awareness. That said, there are quite a few .5 systems that can be pretty hard to avoid. Niarja is one of them. Uedama and Hek are likely spots as well. I guess the shrewd freighter pilot would take extra precautions for those sorts of systems. I mean, if I were to look for a spot to set up suicide ganking shop, I would look at Jumps in the Last Hour versus Security Status and go to those places with the lowest security and the highest amount of jumps. Not alot of brainwork there. So it follows, the freighter pilot should look at those sort of spots on the map with a bit more caution. At least it seems like a logical conclusion to me... ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:59:00 - [28] Suicide ganks demend on an alpha-strike big enough to overwhelm the tank. Escorts won't do much, as if they engage, 1 less suicider won't do anything, and concord will kill the escort. Defensive formations would fix a lot of this. Where an escort ship could hit "Escort Target" and actually put their ship in between it any enemy ships, taking some of the damage.
Inevitability Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.07.22 22:10:00 - [29] Originally by: Verone Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! Wasn't the Charon you bought from Veto Logistics by any chance was it? As I said above....it wasn't me. *Please Contact In-Game For Winning Bids*
Eric Lupanasia	Posted - 2007.07.22 22:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! 30 whole seconds? What were they using, civilian railguns? Anyway. Allow me to repeat the mantra: "Highsec space is safter, NOT safe." And 0.5 space is pretty much "911's a joke in your town" territory. This is not broken- this is how the game is meant to work. Generally, if you're not docked in a station, you should be planning, flying and thinking as if half the pirates in EVE space are one jump behind you- and the other half are waiting at the gate to gank you. This method leads to greater happiness, reduced sadness, and world harmony. Well, except for the pirates. But who cares about them being happy? ------------------- "There can be good done while profiting."
Ozzie Asrail Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.22 22:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Ozzie Asrail I dunno. Feighters shouldn't need escorting all the time They only need to be escorted when full of delicious stuff. Yup very true, but 20 t1 fit domi's is barely more than 1bil. Doesn't have to be that many pretty toys to make it worthwhile. Especially if you look at the big picture where a great haul can write off a couple of failed attempts. -----
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.22 23:02:00 - [32] Edited by: Foxy CEO on 22/07/2007 23:01:59 PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT HOW TO FLY A FREIGHTER AND NOT DIE HORRIBLY 1. Don't carry items of conentrated value. Freighter full of faction/deadspace stuff, faction/T2 ammo, T2 mods, etc will make you a juicy target. If you have to move that stuff, use a transport but follow the same procedures. 2. Plan your route. Before you undock you know your route but your suicide gankers do not. Get bookmarks off the gate grid of every gate you plan on using in a direction other than your direction of travel. Warp to said bookmark, then between bookmarks, then to the other gate. Doing this will prevent any but a dedicated force from tracking you. 3. Webbers are your friend. Travel with a gang mate in a Huginn/Rapier or a fast frig with a webber. If you get webbed while in the process of warping it'll speed the process along considerably. If you use the fast frig, it can be an alt on a second account that you always keep with the freighter. This means that you can't have your freighter in an NPC corp to use it safely. 4. Use your webber to scout ahead of your freighter. You'll be killed if they get a point on you (and manage to keep it long enough) while aligning for warp, which means you're vulnerable on the far side of a gate. If there aren't 20+ BS waiting on the far side of the gate, you're safe. If there are, just dock your freighter. 5. Don't use Autopilot. 6. Don't use Autopilot. END PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT NBALT Recruitment
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.22 23:08:00 - [33] Originally by: Inevitability Originally by: Verone Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! Wasn't the Charon you bought from Veto Logistics by any chance was it? As I said above....it wasn't me. OMG teh flagstobne of d00m livezzzz!!11111one!111bbq!11 >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.07.22 23:16:00 - [34] The problem is the total lack of consequences for the gankers. On one hand people want freighter pilots (or empire dwellers or anyone the want to flame for the matter) to 'not fly what they can't afford to lose', or 'get an escort' or whatever. On the other hand, it costs nothing and has zero consequence for high sec gankers. This is not logical. I've never lost a ship to gankers or pirates (excepted a Kestrel in 0.4 on my second EVE week ) but to me this looks like griefing, or carebearing piracy. Solution? Easy: no insurance payout for high-sec ganking and immediate -5.0 security status for gankers. This way, ganking will still be viable but with consequences. This only looks fair to me. P.S.: the amount of one-sentence-flamers at the beginning of this post doesn't reflect the supposed higher level of maturity in EVE. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Lady Natacha Minmatar Water and Power	Posted - 2007.07.22 23:21:00 - [35] Originally by: Foxy CEO Edited by: Foxy CEO on 22/07/2007 23:01:59 PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT HOW TO FLY A FREIGHTER AND NOT DIE HORRIBLY Originally by: Foxy CEO 1. Don't carry items of conentrated value. Freighter full of faction/deadspace stuff, faction/T2 ammo, T2 mods, etc will make you a juicy target. If you have to move that stuff, use a transport but follow the same procedures. 2. Plan your route. Before you undock you know your route but your suicide gankers do not. Get bookmarks off the gate grid of every gate you plan on using in a direction other than your direction of travel. Warp to said bookmark, then between bookmarks, then to the other gate. Doing this will prevent any but a dedicated force from tracking you. 3. Webbers are your friend. Travel with a gang mate in a Huginn/Rapier or a fast frig with a webber. If you get webbed while in the process of warping it'll speed the process along considerably. If you use the fast frig, it can be an alt on a second account that you always keep with the freighter. This means that you can't have your freighter in an NPC corp to use it safely. 4. Use your webber to scout ahead of your freighter. You'll be killed if they get a point on you (and manage to keep it long enough) while aligning for warp, which means you're vulnerable on the far side of a gate. If there aren't 20+ BS waiting on the far side of the gate, you're safe. If there are, just dock your freighter. 5. Don't use Autopilot. 6. Don't use Autopilot. END PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT If you forget everything else in the above PSA except for #5 and #6 these 2 rules alone will save your ship the majority of the time. Cats do play EVE. Where did you think player names like asdfghjj came from?
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.22 23:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Sorja Solution? Easy: no insurance payout for high-sec ganking and immediate -5.0 security status for gankers. Insurance isn't an issue. T1 domis are dirt cheap and if you're carrying enough in a manner that a suicide gank squad can get together ahead of your route and set up the trap to gank you, their insurance payout is likely a small fraction of their expected profit. -5.0 is also a non-solution. It's the pilot's negligence that got his freighter ganked so isolating his gankers for special treatment is idiotic. If you want to give everyone who gets concordokkened -5.0, good luck with that. What should happen (but doesn't) is a loss of faction standing for aggression in high sec. Faction standing loss is harder to recover from than security standing loss and will eventually prevent the ganker from loitering at gates. There is no reason other than laziness to get your freighter ganked in empire. There are more than enough tools to protect yourself if you don't afk through empire with billions isk worth of assets. If anything, suicide ganking is too hard now, given how many full afk unescorted freighters you see running around empire. NBALT Recruitment
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive Animal.	Posted - 2007.07.22 23:49:00 - [37] It seems that freighter pilots have yet to catch on to the fact that they are now legitimate targets. ZET300 +3% Hull HP implants add around 4000 hp to a Charon, with skills, and sell for about 0.5m ISK all across Empire. Not much extra padding, I grant you, but everything helps when you're wating for teh cavalrie and these are cheap as chips. They all have one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast. All go to one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again.
LMAAAOOOO	Posted - 2007.07.22 23:55:00 - [38] Use freight containers, no one can see what is inside you, or use courier. _______________________________________________ Originally by: murder one lmaaaoooo has made it into my sig.
GPerson Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:08:00 - [39] Originally by: Tarminic Solution: Next freight you fly, fill it half with valuables and the other half with shuttles. No one will DARE suicide you. I smell a winner. ~~~Sig Stuffs Here~~~ I highly recommend drunken posting. This sig has been unhighjacked since 2005.
Lithalnas Amarr Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:25:00 - [40] First use the providence, it has the most armor and can probably wistand the longest pounding. Second, get adv spaceship command to a reasonable level third, DONT USE AUTOPILOT WHEN YOU HAVE EXPENSIVE STUFF ------------- Hadean Drive Yards
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:45:00 - [41] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 23/07/2007 00:45:37 Originally by: Inevitability It would be different if a freighter could fit a tank, like a capital armor rep. If it could fit 8 cap reps - it still would have died. Why? 1. Pilot was probely afk 2. Gankers would kill the ship before even 1 cycle activates -- Billion Isk Mission
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:45:00 - [42] seen high number of freighters on ap flying through there in short boom! bye bye freighter
Ciphero The Wild Hunt FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:52:00 - [43] Concord should jam drones - considering they totally cripple you in every other way, it seems like an oversight that drones are left to run amok. Other than that, freighter down, boo hoo, adapt etc etc.
Neener	Posted - 2007.07.23 01:02:00 - [44] Edited by: Neener on 23/07/2007 01:04:37 Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted And how exactly are you supposed to save that freighter if suicide dominix gang is willing to sacrifice their ships to kill it? Freighter is propably dead long before concord warpin lag clears.
kbullet 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.23 01:04:00 - [45] travel with few guardians and scimitars you'll be fine
Bluestealth Minmatar BlueLabs	Posted - 2007.07.23 01:07:00 - [46] Originally by: kbullet travel with few guardians and scimitars you'll be fine Was about to say :)
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.23 01:07:00 - [47] Originally by: GPerson Originally by: Tarminic Solution: Next freight you fly, fill it half with valuables and the other half with shuttles. No one will DARE suicide you. I smell a winner. Even if the attackers destroy it then, the amount of lag caused by 10000 shuttles exploding into space would make it nearly impossible for anyone to get to your wreck in a reasonable amount of time...doesn't necessarily hurt their wallets, but that leaves their ill-gotten goods much more exposed. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.07.23 01:23:00 - [48] Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted So what, you're going to being along 30 BS, kill 2 of the attackers before Concord get to them, and fail to save the freighter? Neat, you wasted 30 peoples time. You need 2 scouts. And never jump where they are 10+ even potentially hostile people in a system ever. There is no way to defend a freigher in Empire. If they use a login trap, they can allways catch you, given good timing. All the "measures" like implants, or "tougher" capitals will make a few seconds difference. kbullet, do an actual comparison of the damage rates. You can't boost freigher resistance, and they'll be in hull in moments. Tarminic, utterly irellevant. The loss has allready happened. //Maya
Theo Ramone	Posted - 2007.07.23 01:43:00 - [49] Originally by: LMAAAOOOO Use freight containers, no one can see what is inside you, or use courier. Thats what I was thinking. Hell I use them with my industrial when I'm moving things of value, why no one would use them with a freighter is beyond me.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.07.23 01:46:00 - [50] Containers stopped working a while ago against cargo scans. Courier still works, but frankly they're probably going to kill you anwyay if you do that. I'm sure you can work out why. //Maya
Ferrus Grolem	Posted - 2007.07.23 01:51:00 - [51] If it works for moving freighters in 0.0 space, then it ought to work for an empire suicide attack. 1) A webbed freighter will hit warp instantly. Bring a webber. 2) Have a scout flying ahead. They should be able to spot anything that does not look right. Having mechanic V is a good idea too.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.07.23 01:55:00 - [52] Ferrus, one thng to consider - in 0.0, there is typically far less server lag. In your average, busy, Empire system there's time to lay that warp scrambler onto the freighter. So it's more of a threat in Empire, espcially in 0.5 systems along major routes. //Maya
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.23 02:08:00 - [53] Originally by: Neener Edited by: Neener on 23/07/2007 01:04:37 Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted And how exactly are you supposed to save that freighter if suicide dominix gang is willing to sacrifice their ships to kill it? Freighter is propably dead long before concord warpin lag clears. I'm guessing that the suicide gang will just choose an afk freighter over one where there's a chance their tactics will fail. NBALT Recruitment
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.23 02:34:00 - [54] Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted So you'll be the first to sign up for the 40-man 5-hour escort op through empire space, with no prospect of a fight and the actual chances of you saving the freighter if you get into the fight being close to nil, then? Besides their absurd impractability, escorts don't even do anything. You can't scare the suicide gankers away - they're there to die anyway and you can't stop them blowing up the freighter - its an alpha strike. The fact stands freighters are totally vulnerable in every situation where they come under attack from a group of prepared suicide gankers. The only option to fix this is to remove insurance payouts from losses to concord.
Dahin Maza Nostra oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.07.23 02:46:00 - [55] good job. Only 9.999 to go!
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:01:00 - [56] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: GPerson Originally by: Tarminic Solution: Next freight you fly, fill it half with valuables and the other half with shuttles. No one will DARE suicide you. I smell a winner. Even if the attackers destroy it then, the amount of lag caused by 10000 shuttles exploding into space would make it nearly impossible for anyone to get to your wreck in a reasonable amount of time...doesn't necessarily hurt their wallets, but that leaves their ill-gotten goods much more exposed. Yah, and it wouldn't take more than a couple of freighters spewing out that much clutter for CCP to make a bannable offence to 'defend' yourself that way... --- As for the Logistic escort, would that actually help? Or would the gankers just bring 25 Domi's instead of 20? You can increase the number of ganking ships much more easily than effective escorts, it seems. Originally by: Dian Cecht Don't talk to me about NHS waiting lists! My wife got pregnant and we had to wait 9 months before they would deliver it! And don't be fooled, they don't even deliver it!
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:16:00 - [57] Originally by: Elmicker So you'll be the first to sign up for the 40-man 5-hour escort op through empire space, with no prospect of a fight and the actual chances of you saving the freighter if you get into the fight being close to nil, then? Besides their absurd impractability, escorts don't even do anything. You can't scare the suicide gankers away - they're there to die anyway and you can't stop them blowing up the freighter - its an alpha strike. The fact stands freighters are totally vulnerable in every situation where they come under attack from a group of prepared suicide gankers. The only option to fix this is to remove insurance payouts from losses to concord. If you don't make a big enough profit to justify taking reasonable safety measures, perhaps you shouldn't use a freighter. NBALT Recruitment
Celestal	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:18:00 - [58] Simple solution play the suicide gankers at their own game . use multiple disposable alts ( if disposable gets stamped on then simple use trial alts ) There isnt much danger on the gate when u warp to zero I guess ? . The danger is when you have jumped and are warp aligning . Lag is really not a problem so you can load several clients on a computer and not worry if it slideshows . Load 1 rookie on each gate , dont even bother to change rookie fitting . Then before you jump in , shoot anyone nearby or the gate with your civilian weapon ( not the miner u idiot ) , BINGO concord is preloaded in case you get shot at . dock your egg get a free ship to preload nezt time . You get 3 chars on each acc and they are trial accounts so sec status and real dollars/pounds/rubles/yen are immaterial. Is it an abuse of game mechanics ? . In my mind its no more abuse then the suicide gankers so perfectly valid to me . ( if it is ruled abuse then simply be an idiot who suicide ganks all other ships in a rookie ship ) .
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:31:00 - [59] Originally by: Foxy CEO 3. Webbers are your friend. Travel with a gang mate in a Huginn/Rapier or a fast frig with a webber. If you get webbed while in the process of warping it'll speed the process along considerably. If you use the fast frig, it can be an alt on a second account that you always keep with the freighter. This means that you can't have your freighter in an NPC corp to use it safely. Pretty sure CCP "fixed" this a few patches ago so webbing a freighter to fast warp no longer works. I have not tested it since but I recall them talking about doing it. Of all the things in EVE that need fixing this hardly seemed it should be high on the list but whatever.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:33:00 - [60] Originally by: Foxy CEO If you don't make a big enough profit to justify taking reasonable safety measures, perhaps you shouldn't use a freighter. Who said anything about profitability? Escorts will not work, no matter their number. I'm sure you understand the concept of an alpha strike? The only viable solution on the freighter pilot's part is the one suggested by voogru - implants and gang links. However, these measures can just as easily be taken by the suicide gankers, whose pods are left untouched by concord.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:35:00 - [61] Originally by: LMAAAOOOO Use freight containers, no one can see what is inside you, or use courier. outdated info - no longer true ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Whip Slagcheek	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:48:00 - [62] I really don't understand people asking for suicide ganking to be nerfed / CONCORD needs to be boosted. They just did a MAJOR boost to CONCORD. Before the boost, your drones would still do damage. Now your drones are worthless once CONCORD arrives. You are instantly jammed so you can't fire anymore. Your cap is drained so you can't smartbomb and CONCORD hits for as much as 7k a shot. The only reason the ganking works is due to CONCORD response time. CCP designed CONCORD to have a delayed response (as shown by the variable delay according to security status). If CCP didn't want ganking, they could just make it so you couldn't activate weapons on a non-valid target. CCP implemented suicide ganking as a feature. It's always been here and it always will be a part of EVE. Quit complaining about a FEATURE. If you don't like a feature of a game, you're playing the wrong game.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:57:00 - [63] Originally by: Inevitability I didn't lose anything...wasn't me. I just saw it happen and think its crap. It would be different if a freighter could fit a tank, like a capital armor rep. Drones should be jammed by CONCORD and the fuzz should have a faster response time. So how do you know the freighter wasn't a war target if it wasn't you? I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.07.23 03:57:00 - [64] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: LMAAAOOOO Use freight containers, no one can see what is inside you, or use courier. outdated info - no longer true Actually, it was never true, save for the imaginations of some forum posters. I used to get It. Then It changed. Now I don't even know what It is.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.23 04:04:00 - [65] insurance for ganking will not be removed as it has been said already that just like the market - the insurance is regardless of your history simply said avoid high traffic areas and do what it takes - even if by some definitions it might be exploiting high sec will never be carebear hug hug land ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.07.23 04:17:00 - [66] I care... Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.23 05:44:00 - [67] Originally by: Rid*** Valer* Suicide ganks demend on an alpha-strike big enough to overwhelm the tank. Escorts won't do much, as if they engage, 1 less suicider won't do anything, and concord will kill the escort. Defensive formations would fix a lot of this. Where an escort ship could hit "Escort Target" and actually put their ship in between it any enemy ships, taking some of the damage. This is very untrue, you need one frigate to stop suicide gankers. You will lose the frigate in the process, but all you need is one. Frighter suicde gankers depend on concord not being able to get all the drones jammed. Concord jams the domis/myrmidons. Such all you need is a way to break the lock of drones[sensor strength 1] with 100% reliability. Drones orbit at about 1km from the target. ECM burst has a 7.5 base strength and a 5k or so range. As soon as the suicide gankers release their drones onto the freighter, ECM burst the drones. Concord will likly kill you, but the drones will lose lock and not be able to reaquire due to the burst which means the freighter will survive. You have successfully stoped a suicde gank on a freighter.
Xtreem Gallente Scientific Creative Underworld Mafia	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:10:00 - [68] the simple fact is, if someone is hauling enough isks worth of stuff in a freighter though empire that it becomes value for money to gank it, there is the problem right there, split it up into loads and do it that way... easy!
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:22:00 - [69] Quote: Freighters are meant to be escorted Ya and wtf is your escort going to do lol. Watch you die. WOOT great game mechanic there. Here is a question who is escorting the suicde gankers in their cheap worthless completely inept combat set up ships? Oh ya noone because they are able to exploit the safety of a silly game mechanics being noone will suicide on them because there is no profit. Seems we have a balance problem. The day you need to actually put out some dough to equip a ship properly to suicide gank is the day you might be able to justify it in the risk reward universe of EVE. Until then it is a simple game exploit where everyone loves to try to suggest empire isnt ment to be 100% safe yet IT IS FOR SUICIDE GANKERS! so how do we make then vulnerable?
Whineroy	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:25:00 - [70] Originally by: SiJira high sec will never be carebear hug hug land Oh, but it already is that... For the suicide gankers themselves. Especially if/when those said gankers are financed by alts, which allows them to mock the whole concept of risk-and-reward even more.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:31:00 - [71] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 crap You do understand what 'suicide' means don't you? The fact that people choose to make suicide a profitable business for others is not CCP's concern really. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:33:00 - [72] Originally by: Foxy CEO Originally by: Sorja Solution? Easy: no insurance payout for high-sec ganking and immediate -5.0 security status for gankers. Insurance isn't an issue. T1 domis are dirt cheap and if you're carrying enough in a manner that a suicide gank squad can get together ahead of your route and set up the trap to gank you, their insurance payout is likely a small fraction of their expected profit. -5.0 is also a non-solution. It's the pilot's negligence that got his freighter ganked so isolating his gankers for special treatment is idiotic. If you want to give everyone who gets concordokkened -5.0, good luck with that. What should happen (but doesn't) is a loss of faction standing for aggression in high sec. Faction standing loss is harder to recover from than security standing loss and will eventually prevent the ganker from loitering at gates. Quote: loss of faction standing Beautiful idea and decidedly appropriate. You pirate in the territory of a empire, you get a hit with that empire. Security standing loss is easy to recover (it can require a long time, but the basic action is simple) and doing that is even rewarding. Recovering faction standing is hard and beyond a specific point almost impossible. So the ganker need to make a choice and a long term commitment, something that most high sec pirate don't want to do. With all the "hard men" arguments they use, in reality they want the cake and and eating it (i.e. easy access to all empire advantages and at the same time no problem pirating in high sec).
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:38:00 - [73] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 crap You do understand what 'suicide' means don't you? The fact that people choose to make suicide a profitable business for others is not CCP's concern really. Suicide means they die and NOT RETURN FROM THE GRAVE. So suicide gankers is a misnomer. It is only that self-destructing gankers don't ring so well. Or maybe we can use throw away ship gankers? Essentially the character get no bad effect beside a little sec hit. It is only the instrument (the ship) that is destroyed.
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:42:00 - [74] Originally by: R3dSh1ft Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted QFT damage is greater than tank in all cases, and without the ability to actively engage the enemy (as its high sec) freighters are defenseless against suicide ganks - the only way to avoid it is fly with less value in your freighter! That'll be that risk/reward thing we keep hearing so much about then... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:44:00 - [75] Originally by: Xtreem the simple fact is, if someone is hauling enough isks worth of stuff in a freighter though empire that it becomes value for money to gank it, there is the problem right there, split it up into loads and do it that way... easy! Depends what the amount really is. Anyone care to do the maths ? Well I'll do some. Hypothesis : - Refitting a domi with t1 equipment costs 15 million taking insurance into account, - 20 domi = 1 dead freighter, - 2/3 of the freighter loot is lost on exploding, - suiciders are failing 50% of the time. Calculations : The value of the cargo needs to be : 15 * 20 / (1/3) * (1/2) = 1800 million. Conclusion : Assuming the freighter is full at 750 000 m3, transporting anything whose average value is worth more than 2400 isk / m3 the limit for profitable ganks. Now, feel free to tweak the numbers... I don't know if the numbers I used are good or off-chart. Then consider if stuff worth 2400 isk / m3 is t2 goods or t1 goods. If my numbers are correct - which they probably are, now we need to know by how much, transporting any mineral more expensive than mexalion and most t1 goods in large quantities is asking to be killed. Final question : is that balanced, or not ? Have fun ! -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstra
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:33:00 - [76] Originally by: GPerson Originally by: Tarminic Solution: Next freight you fly, fill it half with valuables and the other half with shuttles. No one will DARE suicide you. I smell a winner. What I smell is the ban stick. intentionnally creating lag (and lag-bombs) is against EULA. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:39:00 - [77] This thread is a bit out of date. That 'shuttle trick' is not working for a while already. Last I heard about it freighters now drop freighter sized wrek (just one wrek, not 500 shuttles) out of what you can scoop your loot. You can even use your own freighter to pick up the loot as I understand. And on other hand CONCORD now spanks your drones also so using 20 dominix battleships as suicide gank squad is no longer as effective as it used to be. Thats why you see freighters dying a lot less than they used to die right after they started to drop loot. Then again perhaps I just dreamed it all up thinking I read forums as I don't have personal experience in freighter ganking in hi sec.
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:41:00 - [78] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: GPerson Originally by: Tarminic Solution: Next freight you fly, fill it half with valuables and the other half with shuttles. No one will DARE suicide you. I smell a winner. What I smell is the ban stick. intentionnally creating lag (and lag-bombs) is against EULA. Except that no longer works as the ships will remain inside the wreck and not in space. The only way to use a ship in the loot is to drag it to a hauler/freighter and unload it in a station. We're sorry, something happened.
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:43:00 - [79] Escort it all you want, if you attack a ganker, you just got Concorded. The whole thing stinks.... You simply brought the pirates into Empire and made a 1 bil cap ship worthless... Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Granmethedon III High4Life	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:54:00 - [80] I really wonder why some people play games....
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.07.23 09:59:00 - [81] If freighters are given any low slots it will not take long until we see carrier fleets all over empire as expanded cargoholds will push the cargo space past the magic 1mill m3 mark. One option would be to introduce a remote damage control unit so a support ship could bump up the hull resists of freighters in need. We're sorry, something happened.
Taikun Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:00:00 - [82] Originally by: Terminus adacai Escort it all you want, if you attack a ganker, you just got Concorded. The whole thing stinks.... You simply brought the pirates into Empire and made a 1 bil cap ship worthless... First part.. /agree. Second part about worthless... /kinda agree. You can still AFK haul crap loads on mins with near 100% safety in empire. More expensive loads (greater than a billion) you run the risk of getting ganked. I personally believe the trade off should be more akin to a 5 billion load to make the freighter more useful. But as it stands freighters are not useless. They are a boon for manufacturers or traders who deal in large loads on inexpensive minerals. Taikun ----------------------------------- For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good.
Poke InTheEye Anti-BoB Flash Mob	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:03:00 - [83] I say you give freighters one bomb launcher for defense, and you allow them to use it in empire. NO BOB!!!!
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:05:00 - [84] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: SiJira Originally by: LMAAAOOOO Use freight containers, no one can see what is inside you, or use courier. outdated info - no longer true Actually, it was never true, save for the imaginations of some forum posters. Actually, it was true. A dev even posted to confirm that originally it did scan into cargo containers, then someone changed something that broke it, and that he was going to fix it back again. Then of course there is the entry in the 33752 patch notes: Quote: Cargo scans will correctly scan cargo containers inside cargoholds Which kinda implies that they weren't doing so before Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Assuming the freighter is full at 750 000 m3, transporting anything whose average value is worth more than 2400 isk / m3 the limit for profitable ganks. Now, feel free to tweak the numbers... I don't know if the numbers I used are good or off-chart. Then consider if stuff worth 2400 isk / m3 is t2 goods or t1 goods. If my numbers are correct - which they probably aren't, now we need to know by how much, transporting any mineral more expensive than mexalion and most t1 goods in large quantities is asking to be killed. Final question : is that balanced, or not ? You're the first person I've seen in one of these threads to actually pose the real question on this issue. Suicide ganking is a valid part of the security model for empire space. A hauler can choose not to make themselves a target simply by choosing their cargo load appropriately to stay below the ganking profitability threshold. The only issue is whether the threshold of profitability is in the right place. However, I would also suggest not limiting yourself to examining the case where the entire freighter's hold is filled. You don't have to fill a freighter to the top to make the freighter more effective than other hauling options. Consider if you only put 300,000 m3 of stuff in it. The next highest capacity ship (discounting carriers as this is empire space) is a massively expanded occator, which will need at least 7 trips to move the same amount. In my experience an expanded occator is nowhere near 7 times faster than a freighter, so the freighter would still be the superior option, even though it's not being used to it's full capacity. Sure, you're then not using the full capacity of a freighter. But then should you expect to? Freighters are bulk ships for moving bulk material, not super-haulers designed to move an empire's worth of high-value goods at once (at lesat not safely). You could also consider typical usage scenarios to examine for balance. Lets take an example of someone hauling minerals to fuel a raven-building business. Assuming a perfect build, simply beacuse those are the numbers I have to hand, each raven requires 101045.37 m3 of minerals. IIRC this corresponds to about 90mill total mineral value, for a value density of 891 isk/m3. So based on your numbers, and hauling mixed loads, he would be well within the safety limit. Now, a freighter can haul about 10 raven's worth of trit in one load. The trit haul is easily below the gank threshold. Everything else would then take approx 250,000m3 as a small second load. If you look to fuel even larger operations, then the trit is still fine. The pyer and mex can be done in bulk trips ok, especially if you mix the two or just go for 90% capacity on the mex to be safe. Everything nocx and above is so small it would probably be more effectively moved by T2 transport ship anyway. Isogen looks to be the mineral on the tipping point - either you'd go with several transport trips, or a freighter with only around 200k m3 in it. Or you just seed the iso in with your loads of trit r pyer so the value densities average out to something that's safe. Certainly for minerals, because usage goes down as value goes up, mixing loads to keep the average value down is a very effective tactic. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:34:00 - [85] Edited by: Le Skunk on 23/07/2007 10:33:58 Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! I celebrate this downing of a fat cats isk printer. One less freighter - is 50 more little man traders who can stand a chance of competing and turning a profit in the hauling trade. I hope it was an alliance freighter. SKUNK Originally by: Fink Angel They acted like Mr. Creasote at the all you can eat buffet, and CCP provided the Wafer Theeen Mint.
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:48:00 - [86] hmmm gang with 2 BCs ? one with armor res link and other with shield res link ? cheap and somewhat effective. I know it will only delay the end, but the delay may be the crucial factor in your favor. Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:52:00 - [87] As a freighter pilot: Anyone who is stupid enough to fly a freighter unescorted through the Niarja bottleneck while carrying enough goods to make the gank worthwhile deserves to be shot out of the sky. A .5 system that's in the middle of the Jita >>> Amarr corridor, while the rest of the run is primarily .7 and higher. Gee, where's the gatecamp going to be? Oh, and speaking of the Jita >>> Amarr corridor, got to watch a gank squad get the snot CONCORD-ed out of them at the Perimeter >>> Jita gate tonight... that was high entertainment.
Kindakrof Caldari Cruor Frater Coalition of Carebear Killers	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:52:00 - [88] Originally by: Tortun Nahme adapt or die Best quote this month ADAPT OR DIE!!! --- --- ---
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 10:53:00 - [89] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/07/2007 10:53:55 Originally by: Matthew And you are the first person I see actually trying to see how to play with values in order to see the limit in gank profitability. And as much as I like your thinking and example, it's precisely examples like that I'm missing. Well, I could take a few hours to do the math in order to precisely calculate when and how suicide ganking works (or not). However, I simply lack knowledge about the game to further refine it. Here is what I would need to do that. I can find some of it, but not all. Examples : - average mineral value of a ship's materials, or components (it's good to know that ravens can be transfered with little danger), - average value of a selection of popular mods (weapons, ammo, modules, actually since I just don't know what the most used t1 modules are), - average value of rig components (probably off the chart, this one I can find by myself though), - compressing mechanics. I heard people compress minerals by making them into modules with lower volume... I'd like a few of them to get their average values... - number of ships needed to gank in different security statuses (.5, .6, .7, .8, .9 and 1), - different gank builds, cost and effectiveness. I'll be asking around for those, but it would help if others also did their part. And then it'll be possible to see whether suicide ganking is balanced or not. However, I must admit that I don't have the required connections to find all data by myself. And this thread proves once again (that wasn't really needed) that troolls would rather pointlessly smack each other than trying to calculate whether their opponents are wrong or they are. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstra
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:19:00 - [90] I told my GF about this thread (along the lines of how the forum is mainly full of "I want this changing to suit me" threads), and she wanted me to ask if I can have your stuff? Anyway, to answer your question! There's nothing for CCP to fix, it's the bloody point of EVE. Rash.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:21:00 - [91] Originally by: Goumindong This is very untrue, you need one frigate to stop suicide gankers. You will lose the frigate in the process, but all you need is one. Frighter suicde gankers depend on concord not being able to get all the drones jammed. Concord jams the domis/myrmidons. Such all you need is a way to break the lock of drones[sensor strength 1] with 100% reliability. Drones orbit at about 1km from the target. ECM burst has a 7.5 base strength and a 5k or so range. As soon as the suicide gankers release their drones onto the freighter, ECM burst the drones. Concord will likly kill you, but the drones will lose lock and not be able to reaquire due to the burst which means the freighter will survive. You have successfully stoped a suicde gank on a freighter. Are Domis still the freighter gank ship of choice? I thought now that CONCORD went after drones that Domis were not particularly better than many other choices. Admittedly I have not done all the math to know but I thought that was the point. If so however then seems a fleet of Gankageddons will do as well and avoid your ECM burst nicely.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:22:00 - [92] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edit : the last thing that would be needed it to know what should and should not be "safe" to transport in high sec. Example : low end minerals, regular ores, t1 minerals for ships should be "safe". T2 goods, BPO, faction stuff, shouldn't, of course. As far as the other data goes, It's a project I've put to one side at the moment (along with a pile of others) due to lack of time. However, the question isn't really what items should be safe. After all, if you only want to move one of them, there are very few things that are so valuable per item that they'd get a freighter ganked. The real question is how much of each type of stuff should be safe. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:27:00 - [93] We saw a freighter AFK, 15km off a gate a few days ago with over 30bil of loot in it... Including 10 Vagas, 10 Sleipnirs, 10 Claymores, 10 Muninns, 10 Huginns, 10 Rapiers... Lots and lots of t2 stuff and a few capital skillbooks... Unfortunately for us, we're all outlaws and can't suicide gank... Suicide ganking is a hard thing to do. You have to manage your sec status, find your target, co-ordinate a massive assault in 30 seconds... It's harder than any 0.0 fighting IMO... Time for me to get that sec up! Latest Video, Click Here!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:27:00 - [94] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain Anyway, to answer your question! There's nothing for CCP to fix, it's the bloody point of EVE. I disagree. It is not that suicide ganks exist. It is that they are enabled (to a large extent) by a bogus game mechanic (insurance payouts when you break the law). Further, there is no very good or reasonable way to protect the freighter. The freighter cannot use mods and you'd need a fleet of support ships to have a fair chance at surviving a suicide gank. I am all for freighter pilots making use of guards when they have valuable cargo. Just make it so there is some reasonable method of guards actually, you know, guarding (and saying they should have 20 Logistic ships in tow wherever they go is not reasonable). If the freighter pilot forgoes a guard and slow boats through Empire then I am with you and they have what is coming to them.
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:29:00 - [95] I don't see anything that needs fixing in this thread other than the OP's attitude. This is EVE. EVE is a harsh mistress. People want to kill you. Therefore don't use autopilot on a freighter, and travel with a Huginn/Rapier to make you align faster. Alternatively a few logistics ships to rep your freighter if it does get caught. Dark Flare - Corpus PCG
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:33:00 - [96] Originally by: Dark Flare This is EVE. EVE is a harsh mistress. People want to kill you. Therefore don't use autopilot on a freighter, and travel with a Huginn/Rapier to make you align faster. Alternatively a few logistics ships to rep your freighter if it does get caught. Align "faster" with a freighter is a very relative thing. Faster in a freighter is still damn slow...more than enough time for gankers to jump you. And as for logistic ships we did the math here awhile back and the alpha strike is so high you need a lot more than a few logistic ships (the freighter drops in less than 30 seconds so consider how many rep cycles the logistics can throw in versus damage being dealt).
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:34:00 - [97] Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 23/07/2007 11:35:37 Have escorts that smartbomb the heavy drones, web the freighter to get it to warp faster and an ecm burst to break locks/scramblers. Alternatively, use a couple of scouts, they'll save you from 99% of ganks w/o any of the above
Taikun Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:34:00 - [98] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain There's nothing for CCP to fix, it's the bloody point of EVE. Rash. Riggghhhttt... So if I made several alts and hooked up with my buddies with the express purpose just to suicide on you over irrespective of Concord this is the 'point' of eve is it? If this game is 100% pure PvP and you wouldn't beable to go crying to CCP that I was just griefing you would you? Or is there some 'intent' attached to this game which suicding ganking you over and over counters? CCP already will warn/ban you for griefing newbies. Where is this line drawn in their minds? Many feel that intentional suiciding 20+ battleships and swooping in with a unganged alt to pick up the spoils of a freighter kill is against CCP 'intent' for how the game was to be played. In fact, many feel that it is exploting game mechanics on par with POS bowling. the 'ole boo hoo 0.0 is dangerous' and 'it's a PvP game' didn't go far with CCP on that issue did it? Just because it can be done, doesn't mean that it was intended by CCP to be done. As for the mouth-pieces who say adapt or die. I agree. Freighters need to adapt to 1,000,000 hit points to make this capital ship meaningful again or they will continue to die in empire to exploiters. Taikun ----------------------------------- For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good.
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem R i s e	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:42:00 - [99] Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! OH EM EFF GEE!! meh, happens, don't haul a freighter load of officer loot whilst AFK, moron. hell, if you got high value stuff to haul, try making more hauls of smaller ammounts, rather than waiting till you got a freighter load. for example, a battleship cargo-hold worth of officer loot is still a fair ammount, and you can probably tank the gankers for long enough to see them go up in a fiery ball of concord ownage... simple trick - make the risk/reward not worth it for them. their risk is the loss of their ship - which is guatranteed, therefore their reward has to compensate this loss. if the crap you're hauling on one go is less valuable than the ships they WILL lose then they won't attack. smaller, more frequent trips, that's what you need. ========================================== Iy please remember: I AM a sarcastic ******* and nothing i say has ever represented the thoughts or feelings of my corp, alliance, or anyone really. read
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:43:00 - [100] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Edited by: Chrysalis D''lilth on 23/07/2007 11:35:37 Have escorts that smartbomb the heavy drones, Your escort will likely get CONCORDed for doing this (so your guard dies and takes a sec hit for doing their job). Quote: ...web the freighter to get it to warp faster... CCP fixed this a few patches ago so it does not work anymore. Quote: ...and an ecm burst to break locks/scramblers. Again yout guard will get CONCORDed and take a sec hit (all they need is an un-grouped alt in a shuttle next to you...if you are really unlucky and there are several unaligned people that get hit you really take a sec hit). Quote: Alternatively, use a couple of scouts, they'll save you from 99% of ganks w/o any of the above A well setup suicide attack can easily avoid your scouts. Bit more work but easily accounted for. Only the lazy ones will just sit with 20 Domis hovering over a gate for all to see.
Dark Flare Caldari Corpus PCG The State	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:50:00 - [101] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Dark Flare This is EVE. EVE is a harsh mistress. People want to kill you. Therefore don't use autopilot on a freighter, and travel with a Huginn/Rapier to make you align faster. Alternatively a few logistics ships to rep your freighter if it does get caught. Align "faster" with a freighter is a very relative thing. Faster in a freighter is still damn slow...more than enough time for gankers to jump you. And as for logistic ships we did the math here awhile back and the alpha strike is so high you need a lot more than a few logistic ships (the freighter drops in less than 30 seconds so consider how many rep cycles the logistics can throw in versus damage being dealt). The logistics ships should lock faster than the gank ships, and you can see a gank coming before you decloak at a gate on jump-in, so the logistics ships should counter the alphastrike by "pre-emptively" repping, so that by the time the gankers have their alpha strike off, the rep cycle is almost complete. From there on in the logistics ships have the upper hand, and CONCORD will do the rest. Dark Flare - Corpus PCG
Ozzie Asrail Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:53:00 - [102] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h [quote ...web the freighter to get it to warp faster... CCP fixed this a few patches ago so it does not work anymore. Negative, still works and works by design. -----
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:56:00 - [103] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather 15 * 20 / (1/3) * (1/2) = 1800 million Using slighly different numbers: - 20 domis, 20M each (insurance + mods) = 400M - 20 x 1 hour x 20M/hour = 400M: opportunity cost for the lost time by gankers - 50% of cargo salvaged (seems to match in my experience) - 50% chance of success (probably higher actually; hard to tell) -> 3.2B 'zero return level', minus the value of sec losses (+ novelty/excitment of doing this) Result to roughly same values; meaning hauling stuff less than 3B worth is probably ok. Originally by: Taikun warn/ban you for griefing .. they will continue to die in empire to exploiters IMHO it is only griefing if the gankers keep doing it over and over while suffering net loss. Haven't heard of such cases; you know of any? And freighters _occasionally_ dying is actually good thing; it's what Eve is all about. Its up to you to make the choice: use an unescorted bulk hauler afk, or move valuable stuff in a hardier ship over several trips? I.e. Eve would not collapse if people could not haul high-value stuff in Freighters. If you want to help, perhaps start awareness campaign like 'Be cautious, freighters are not invulnerable!' -Lasse
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.23 11:59:00 - [104] Edited by: Goumindong on 23/07/2007 12:02:20 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Goumindong This is very untrue, you need one frigate to stop suicide gankers. You will lose the frigate in the process, but all you need is one. Frighter suicde gankers depend on concord not being able to get all the drones jammed. Concord jams the domis/myrmidons. Such all you need is a way to break the lock of drones[sensor strength 1] with 100% reliability. Drones orbit at about 1km from the target. ECM burst has a 7.5 base strength and a 5k or so range. As soon as the suicide gankers release their drones onto the freighter, ECM burst the drones. Concord will likly kill you, but the drones will lose lock and not be able to reaquire due to the burst which means the freighter will survive. You have successfully stoped a suicde gank on a freighter. Are Domis still the freighter gank ship of choice? I thought now that CONCORD went after drones that Domis were not particularly better than many other choices. Admittedly I have not done all the math to know but I thought that was the point. If so however then seems a fleet of Gankageddons will do as well and avoid your ECM burst nicely. Domis are still the gank ship of choice afaik 1. Gankageddons still get a large part of their DPS from drones 2. Gankageddons in order to be effective need low slots dedicated to heat sinks 3. Tech II megapulses/Tachyons while not not exactly expensive are not nearly as cheap as the mods for a domi. 4. Concord still jams you, and doesnt fully get the drones. Though it does now get drones, it still has to respond to each or get to the cycle. The drones will fight until you explode, which you need to prolong as much as possible. The domis 7 versus the geddons 5[after 3 heat sinks] low slots mean more effective hit points. As do the 2 extra mid slots[since you dont really need a scram, or a web, you might as well pump up the shield hit poitns, while the geddon needs tracking computers for range] The trick to suicide ganking is that you can reduce the amount of risk via insurance and cheap mods. The gankageddon doesnt really let you do that. 20 max skilled tech gank-a-geddons will deal roughly 112809 damage with their guns before they get jammed. They might be able to squese out more with tachs, but its unlikly. The minmatar freighter has some 6000 shield[x1.2], 21,000 armor[x1.25], and 100,000 structure[x1.25, or was it 80k structure, i dont recall.]. The Geddons without some luck still wont cut it, without bringing more guns to the show. An ECM Burst would still foil the majority of suicide ganks, since even a good amount of Geddons need the drones to finish the job. edit: The other option is that whenver you see a freighter get poped[since likly there will be others around], take one for "the team" and pop the wreck. Hell, the presense of any escort should make it very hard to suicide gank a freighter for isk, since the escort, regardless if it saves the ship, can just pop the wreck afterwards.
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:01:00 - [105] Edited by: Foxy CEO on 23/07/2007 12:05:50 Originally by: Ozzie Asrail Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Quote: ...web the freighter to get it to warp faster... CCP fixed this a few patches ago so it does not work anymore. Negative, still works and works by design. The procedure I posted is from a MM freighter op going through low sec from 0.0 to high sec. One of my network of alt spies witnessed this method in action, and it was highly effective. Also useful for low sec was the cyno ship accompanying the freighter and bringing Nyx gankage down on the heads of anyone who tries to interfere. edit: fixed quote madness. Also, point of this is that I know it still works and is highly effective as I've seen it recently. NBALT Recruitment
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:02:00 - [106] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h A well setup suicide attack can easily avoid your scouts. Bit more work but easily accounted for. Only the lazy ones will just sit with 20 Domis hovering over a gate for all to see. People like easy/afk targets. Your response makes me think your after an easy win button for freighters and you either aren't familiar with how good scouts operate or your trying to simplyfy it to be dismissive. Empire shouldn't be 100% safe for people who want to play AFK, it never should be 100% safe for freighters. There _has_ to be risk for players who are trying to make literally billions of isk via freighter hauling. Capable scouts aren't going to let you run into 20 domis (read : they do far more than just check the other side of the gate for you). Is it 100% safe? no, it never should be - your hauling in 0.5 sec. However, with enough precautions taken by a half dozen people (as opposed to the accurate planning of some 20+ players), you can protect your freighters to a degree that makes the risk of losing your cargo almost negliable.
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:07:00 - [107] Originally by: Foxy CEO Originally by: Ozzie Asrail Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Quote: ...web the freighter to get it to warp faster... CCP fixed this a few patches ago so it does not work anymore. Negative, still works and works by design. The procedure I posted is from a MM freighter op going through low sec from 0.0 to high sec. One of my network of alt spies witnessed this method in action, and it was highly effective. Also useful for low sec was the cyno ship accompanying the freighter and bringing Nyx gankage down on the heads of anyone who tries to interfere. So webbing allows it to align faster? What a load of BS, the freighter takes years to align even webbed, I tried it. You gain maybe 3 seconds of time as it hits warp speed out of the 30 or so it takes to align and warp without webs. --
Malcanis High4Life	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:11:00 - [108] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/07/2007 08:44:16 Originally by: Xtreem the simple fact is, if someone is hauling enough isks worth of stuff in a freighter though empire that it becomes value for money to gank it, there is the problem right there, split it up into loads and do it that way... easy! Depends what the amount really is. Anyone care to do the maths ? Well I'll do some. Hypothesis : - Refitting a domi with t1 equipment costs 15 million taking insurance into account, - 20 domi = 1 dead freighter, - 2/3 of the freighter loot is lost on exploding, - suiciders are failing 50% of the time. Calculations : The value of the cargo needs to be : 15 * 20 / (1/3) * (1/2) = 1800 million. Conclusion : Assuming the freighter is full at 750 000 m3, transporting anything whose average value is worth more than 2400 isk / m3 the limit for profitable ganks. Now, feel free to tweak the numbers... I don't know if the numbers I used are good or off-chart. Then consider if stuff worth 2400 isk / m3 is t2 goods or t1 goods. If my numbers are correct - which they probably aren't, now we need to know by how much, transporting any mineral more expensive than mexalion and most t1 goods in large quantities is asking to be killed. Final question : is that balanced, or not ? Have fun ! EDIT : grammar... You're neglegting the following factors: (1) The gankers will need to move 250,000m^3 of cargo. That's quite a few fully T2-fitted haulers, or else another freighter - and that all those haulers will make it away without being ganked in turn. (2) You're assuming that the gankers will get everything that drops, rather than it turning into some kind of pirhana-pool feeding frenzy. (3) The gankers aren't spending hours and risking millions of ISK to break even; they want to make a profit; and that profit has to be split between ~20 BS pilots and 1-10 hauler pilots. Since ratting and missioning will easily get these pilots ~10M per hour or so, with no sec hit, it's reasonable to assume that each pilot will not be satisfied with less than 50M or so in profit, and really, they're going to want 100M each. In conclusion: I think your mexallon is safe from robbers. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:12:00 - [109] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Originally by: Imperator Jora'h A well setup suicide attack can easily avoid your scouts. Bit more work but easily accounted for. Only the lazy ones will just sit with 20 Domis hovering over a gate for all to see. People like easy/afk targets. Your response makes me think your after an easy win button for freighters and you either aren't familiar with how good scouts operate or your trying to simplyfy it to be dismissive. It is simple. Gank squad stays just off grid. Heck...they can stay across the system or even docked. An Alt or three in shuttles bump freighter. Easily done, keeps him from warping indefinitely. Gank squad warps in and goes to work.
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:20:00 - [110] Originally by: Drizit So webbing allows it to align faster? What a load of BS, the freighter takes years to align even webbed, I tried it. You gain maybe 3 seconds of time as it hits warp speed out of the 30 or so it takes to align and warp without webs. You have to web after the warp is initiated. Not being able to fly a freighter, I don't know the fine points of the trick. I've seen it multiple times, though, and it's about the goofiest looking thing in the world to watch the freighter move like that. NBALT Recruitment
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:23:00 - [111] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I disagree. It is not that suicide ganks exist. It is that they are enabled (to a large extent) by a bogus game mechanic (insurance payouts when you break the law). Well, all that removing the insurance payout would do is increase the cost of ganking the freighter, and thus the value of cargo you can carry before you become a target. Looking at the cargo manifests of some known freighter ganks, they are unlikely to have been saved by this change. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Further, there is no very good or reasonable way to protect the freighter. There's one very good way - don't load it up with such valuable cargo in the first place. Originally by: Taikun So if I made several alts and hooked up with my buddies with the express purpose just to suicide on you over irrespective of Concord this is the 'point' of eve is it? Except you're not doing it "irrespective of CONCORD". You lose your ship, and you lose sec-status. Incidentally, "recycling" alts to avoid the consequences of sec-status drop is a bannable exploit. The only reason suicide ganking works is because haulers choose to put more value in their cargo than it costs in losing ships to concord to gank you. CONCORD has always been intended to punish the offender, not prevent the offence. Originally by: Taikun In fact, many feel that it is exploting game mechanics on par with POS bowling. the 'ole boo hoo 0.0 is dangerous' and 'it's a PvP game' didn't go far with CCP on that issue did it? The intended POS mechanic has always been that if it is inside a forcefield with a password, then you need that password (or equivalent corp access rights) in order to get at it. POS bowling used a delay in the physics engine applying the forcefield condition to bypass the intended POS mechanic. The intended CONCORD mechanic has always been that if you shoot someone in empire, you lose your ship and sec-status. There has never been any intention or guarantee about what they will or will not be able to achieve before that happens. All the suicide-gankers lose their ships and sec-status, therefore they are in no way bypassing intended game mechanics. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:23:00 - [112] Get a battleship Fit 8x large armor transporter Good luck gankers. - Tho shall give Life, for Life.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:26:00 - [113] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 23/07/2007 12:26:11 Originally by: Foxy CEO The procedure I posted is from a MM freighter op going through low sec from 0.0 to high sec. One of my network of alt spies witnessed this method in action, and it was highly effective. Also useful for low sec was the cyno ship accompanying the freighter and bringing Nyx gankage down on the heads of anyone who tries to interfere. edit: fixed quote madness. Also, point of this is that I know it still works and is highly effective as I've seen it recently. Here is a thread discussing this where everyone seemed in agreement that webbing freighters was going the way of the Dodo (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=521981). If it still works great! I was bummed it was going away. I offer the above thread just to show I was not crazy in my thinking it was gone. I have used the web trick on my freighter on occasion and while cool and helpful it is not like I am all of a sudden piloting a shuttle. The web only helps on the acceleration aspect of getting in to warp. The freighter still needs to align and that is still quite slow. If the freighter can warp straight ahead then yeah...the thing will just zoom off but if it needs to turn a bit then still slow as always.
Herring Pimpology Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:26:00 - [114] Originally by: Mashie Saldana If freighters are given any low slots it will not take long until we see carrier fleets all over empire as expanded cargoholds will push the cargo space past the magic 1mill m3 mark. This argument is lame. You generally see people who'll profit from suicide ganking using the 'oh noes....we can't give them lowslots, they'll get over a mill cargospace!' argument. If people are concerned about carrying capships into empire, it's simply a matter of not allowing capships to be transported as cargo. You get an error message saying the your max freighter cargobay door size is too small to fit the ship, or whatever. The easiest fix for adding defense to freighters is to give them a lowslot (one). You could use a damage control on them and suddenly it becomes a lot less profitable to try and take one down. Can't transport cap ships. If people want to try and take their chances and fit a cargo expander on there, let them go for it. I sure the hell wouldn't. One lowslot for a freighter doesn't turn ganking into an impossibility either, it just makes it more expensive for the ganker. At this point, that seems fair, especially given the fact that insurance payouts don't look to be changing.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:39:00 - [115] Originally by: Malcanis You're neglegting the following factors: (1) The gankers will need to move 250,000m^3 of cargo. That's quite a few fully T2-fitted haulers, or else another freighter - and that all those haulers will make it away without being ganked in turn. (2) You're assuming that the gankers will get everything that drops, rather than it turning into some kind of pirhana-pool feeding frenzy. (3) The gankers aren't spending hours and risking millions of ISK to break even; they want to make a profit; and that profit has to be split between ~20 BS pilots and 1-10 hauler pilots. Since ratting and missioning will easily get these pilots ~10M per hour or so, with no sec hit, it's reasonable to assume that each pilot will not be satisfied with less than 50M or so in profit, and really, they're going to want 100M each. In conclusion: I think your mexallon is safe from robbers. Yup. Another post just above proposed to take "opportunity cost" into consideration. Opportunity cost is the average money the guys would make by another mean (mission, ratting). The number he came with with his number was 3.2 billion, which makes the limit 4260 isk/m3, assuming the following : - 1 gank / hour (no idea if it's possible or not), - 20 million / hour "standard" opportunity cost, I agree, mostly, with your points. Especially point 3. But I was not willing to set a opportunity cost myself because it varies wildly (5 - 75 million / hour depending on the e-peen size of the guys that speaks about it), and gank / hours. As for point 1 and 2, yeah, I do assume that people organized enough to get 20 or more ships to simultaneously attack in an alpha strike are able to manage the logistics of having a freighter jumping in the system to pick up the loot. Last point, as far as I know only freighters can loot freighters. I may be wrong about it, though, so I can put a modifier to account for the looters's part. However, I'd rather use the modifier that is a little low to account for that : the percentage of successful looting by the gankers, which is probably above 50%. After all, if the stolen goods get stolen again, it's not really a successful gank, so it fits there. That would mean that finding freighters that have 3.2 billion in cargo and ganking those once per hour gives 20 million isk / hour, for each pilot. Now, the questions I add are : - what amount of goods, of what type does 3.2 billion isk represent ? - how easy / hard / long is it to find this kind of prey ? As I said before, I'm here to collect data in order to see what is really at stake, so I thank you for your input. But, I need more . -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstra
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:39:00 - [116] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 23/07/2007 12:26:11 Originally by: Foxy CEO The procedure I posted is from a MM freighter op going through low sec from 0.0 to high sec. One of my network of alt spies witnessed this method in action, and it was highly effective. Also useful for low sec was the cyno ship accompanying the freighter and bringing Nyx gankage down on the heads of anyone who tries to interfere. edit: fixed quote madness. Also, point of this is that I know it still works and is highly effective as I've seen it recently. Here is a thread discussing this where everyone seemed in agreement that webbing freighters was going the way of the Dodo (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=521981). If it still works great! I was bummed it was going away. I offer the above thread just to show I was not crazy in my thinking it was gone. I have used the web trick on my freighter on occasion and while cool and helpful it is not like I am all of a sudden piloting a shuttle. The web only helps on the acceleration aspect of getting in to warp. The freighter still needs to align and that is still quite slow. If the freighter can warp straight ahead then yeah...the thing will just zoom off but if it needs to turn a bit then still slow as always. I last witnessed it maybe a week before the most recent patch (last tuesday) and I didn't see any relevant patch notes in that patch. The freighter decloaked, was webbed, and warped before a gang of BS's could get a point on it (so presumably before they could target it). NBALT Recruitment
Granmethedon III High4Life	Posted - 2007.07.23 12:39:00 - [117] OK, so everyone gets all worked up that they're defenceless against suicide gankers, and any suggestion of flying with escort gets greeted with "but they'l get CONCORDED blub-blub. So the simple solution is:- get rid of CONCORD, then you can defend yourselves, right?
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.07.23 13:01:00 - [118] Originally by: Herring Originally by: Mashie Saldana If freighters are given any low slots it will not take long until we see carrier fleets all over empire as expanded cargoholds will push the cargo space past the magic 1mill m3 mark. This argument is lame. You generally see people who'll profit from suicide ganking using the 'oh noes....we can't give them lowslots, they'll get over a mill cargospace!' argument. We have no need to suicide freighters as our dear wartargets can't resist undocking them. For the sake of the argument, instead of giving a freighter an extra lowslot for a DCII, CCP might just as well double the hull hitpoints. We're sorry, something happened.
Fswd	Posted - 2007.07.23 13:04:00 - [119] Zzzzzzz --- Cool, my sig got nerfed...again <-- plz explain how that is discussing, it is just stating a fact...hmmz this is discussing, isnt it? [orange]snip Trolling and discussion of moderation remov
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.23 13:25:00 - [120] Edited by: Elmicker on 23/07/2007 13:24:45 Originally by: Drizit So webbing allows it to align faster? What a load of BS, the freighter takes years to align even webbed, I tried it. You gain maybe 3 seconds of time as it hits warp speed out of the 30 or so it takes to align and warp without webs. Incorrect. When performed properly, the trick can allow a freighter to enter warp in less than a second, however, in empire, the webber must be a corpmate. And to those who keep suggesting remote repping: "Alpha Strike" - the act of applying enough damage to a ship to destroy it before any rep cycles can take place, remote or otherwise. The freighter went down in 30s, one or two logistics ships would not have saved it.
Sikozu Prioris Cirrius Technologies O X I D E	Posted - 2007.07.23 13:42:00 - [121] Edited by: Sikozu Prioris on 23/07/2007 13:43:11 To make it harder for them, all freighter pilots should have; Mechancic V (5% hull hp), Hull Upgrades V (5% armor hp), Shield Management V (5% shield hp), Shield Operation V (5% shield recharge bonus) Then for implants a zet300/3000 with a zet500/5000 these give a 3%/5$ bonus to hull and armor hp respectively. Also a kva1000/2000 for a 3%/5% to shield hp. Then of course if ur doin a one off large haul worth 10's of billions not gunna cost u much to hire someone in a command ship with sheild and armor hp gang links to travel with you.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.23 13:54:00 - [122] Originally by: Elmicker Incorrect. When performed properly, the trick can allow a freighter to enter warp in less than a second, however, in empire, the webber must be a corpmate. The confusion around the effectiveness of this trick is probably because it seems to work differently in different circumstances. Immediately after a jump, what you describe appears to be correct. The freighter will quite often enter warp sideways, such is the quickness of the effect. However, when performed after undocking, or just plain in-space (e.g. having warped to a SS, then trying to warp somewhere else), I've not managed to get it to work. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:03:00 - [123] Quote: The freighter still needs to align and that is still quite slow. If the freighter can warp straight ahead then yeah...the thing will just zoom off but if it needs to turn a bit then still slow as always. My understanding was that attempting to warp after jump-in, and whilst still cloaked, is simply a matter of acceleration - although your ship appears to be pointing in some direction, that has no bearing upon the time taken to get into warp. Hence, webbing will allow yuo to instawarp. On the other hand, if yuo're just sittign there normally in space, then you would need to align and accelerate - and it's the alignment that would take the time. Quote: And to those who keep suggesting remote repping: "Alpha Strike" - the act of applying enough damage to a ship to destroy it before any rep cycles can take place, remote or otherwise. The freighter went down in 30s, one or two logistics ships would not have saved it. FYI, remote repper cycles don't take 30 seconds. Remote repping is a perfectly viable defence against freighter ganks. The trick is figuring out the balance between CONCORD response time, ganksquad firepower and reppers required. I suspect that an alt in a repper BS with sensor boosters, ECM Burst and webbers is all that is necessary to foil any freighter gank. I also suspect that whiny freighter pilots will not read this, still afk-autopilot through 0.5 and then moan when they get ganked.
shamai	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:11:00 - [124] instead of flying escort with a mind to stopping an alpha strike fly an escort of empty haulers. Pop your cargo in a secure container, someone tries to gank you...jettison and get it picked up by your escort..
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:13:00 - [125] "Fix this ccp"? How can you fix something that isnt broken? Freighters even drop loot just so this sort of thing is worthwhile. You thought "unforgiving universe" was just a marketing gimmick or something? --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
hUssmann Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:15:00 - [126] Originally by: Jim McGregor "Fix this ccp"? How can you fix something that isnt broken? Freighters even drop loot just so this sort of thing is worthwhile. You thought "unforgiving universe" was just a marketing gimmick or something? This. Ginger Magician > You are merely an effective ganker of haulers who runs at the first sign of combat.
Jenna Shame	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:21:00 - [127] Solution, don't fly with 10's of billions in a freighter. No one can claim ignorance at this point, just stupidity. There are so many ways to avoid this but people just want to use their magic carebearing transport machines while they go watch TV. Serves them right.
Dietes Marcellus	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:30:00 - [128] Originally by: Jenna Shame magic carebearing transport machines lol
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 14:47:00 - [129] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/07/2007 14:47:49 Originally by: Jenna Shame Solution, don't fly with 10's of billions in a freighter. No one can claim ignorance at this point, just stupidity. There are so many ways to avoid this but people just want to use their magic carebearing transport machines while they go watch TV. Serves them right. Sure. Yet the question remains : what should be the maximum amount of money / stuff that should be put into the transports to be "safe" ? What quantity make you a careless afk carebear, and what quantity is intended for the freighter to carry ? Reasonning with extreme doesn't help seeing if there is a problem or not, or what solution are needed (if any). It just help in feeding green-skinned humanoids from nordic mythology... -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Foxy CEO Altcenaries	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:00:00 - [130] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Sure. Yet the question remains : what should be the maximum amount of money / stuff that should be put into the transports to be "safe" ? What quantity make you a careless afk carebear, and what quantity is intended for the freighter to carry ? AFKing a freighter full of stuff makes you an AFK carebear. Loading said freighter with enough stuff to make it worthwhile for someone to suicide gank and running it afk/solo through 0.5 systems known to hold suicide gank squads makes you careless and stupid. That, or charitable, as you seem to be donating your stuff with anyone who wants it. NBALT Recruitment
Jenna Shame	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:03:00 - [131] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/07/2007 14:47:49 Originally by: Jenna Shame Solution, don't fly with 10's of billions in a freighter. No one can claim ignorance at this point, just stupidity. There are so many ways to avoid this but people just want to use their magic carebearing transport machines while they go watch TV. Serves them right. Sure. Yet the question remains : what should be the maximum amount of money / stuff that should be put into the transports to be "safe" ? What quantity make you a careless afk carebear, and what quantity is intended for the freighter to carry ? Reasonning with extreme doesn't help seeing if there is a problem or not, or what solution are needed (if any). It just help in feeding green-skinned humanoids from nordic mythology... When I'm moving T2 mods I use a pimped out transport and fly like I was a frightened rabbit. In a freighter I fly like a frightened paranoid neurotic rabbit. Since 90% of this could be solved by using a scout and having some situational awareness my sympathies are limited.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:05:00 - [132] Definition of Risk: Chance of a negative event occuring. + Impact of that negative event. So... Limited Value item in High Sec - Low Risk Venture. Limited Value item in Low Sec - Medium Risk Venture. High Value item in High Sec - Medium Risk Venture. High Value item in Low Sec - High Risk Venture. The carrier pilot made a choice to conduct a Medium Risk activity. C. - sig designer - eve mail
Inevitability Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:16:00 - [133] Originally by: Venkul Mul Quote: loss of faction standing Beautiful idea and decidedly appropriate. You pirate in the territory of a empire, you get a hit with that empire. Security standing loss is easy to recover (it can require a long time, but the basic action is simple) and doing that is even rewarding. Recovering faction standing is hard and beyond a specific point almost impossible. So the ganker need to make a choice and a long term commitment, something that most high sec pirate don't want to do. With all the "hard men" arguments they use, in reality they want the cake and and eating it (i.e. easy access to all empire advantages and at the same time no problem pirating in high sec). I agree with this...I also think that bounty hunting should be legal, where you could purchase a 14-day license from concord which gave you permission to open fire on targets with greater than a -2.0 sec status. Make it pricey....say 250-500mil....but it would be effective. I just don't think it's balanced...freighters have no defenses, and I agree with not being stupid and carrying multiple billions of ISK in one load, but c'mon....you have no way to defend yourself, and the insurance payouts are so rediculous that it makes insuring your freighter not worthwhile. Instead of insulting eachother and turning this into a post with the IQ of a WOW player...let's come up with suggestions on how to correct it. *Please Contact In-Game For Winning Bids*
Inevitability Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:21:00 - [134] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 crap You do understand what 'suicide' means don't you? The fact that people choose to make suicide a profitable business for others is not CCP's concern really. Suicide means they die and NOT RETURN FROM THE GRAVE. So suicide gankers is a misnomer. It is only that self-destructing gankers don't ring so well. Or maybe we can use throw away ship gankers? Essentially the character get no bad effect beside a little sec hit. It is only the instrument (the ship) that is destroyed. /Signed. Give them something to fear for what they do besides getting concorded. Obviously that's not working. Originally by: Terminus acadai Escort it all you want, if you attack a ganker, you just got Concorded. The whole thing stinks.... You simply brought the pirates into Empire and made a 1 bil cap ship worthless... /Signed. Originally by: Mashie Saldana If freighters are given any low slots it will not take long until we see carrier fleets all over empire as expanded cargoholds will push the cargo space past the magic 1mill m3 mark. One option would be to introduce a remote damage control unit so a support ship could bump up the hull resists of freighters in need. I'm not necessarily concerned with the 1st part of this...A carrier can't operate in empire anyway so what's the big concern? I do however like your suggestion in the second part...way to think! *Please Contact In-Game For Winning Bids*
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:23:00 - [135] Originally by: Whineroy Originally by: SiJira high sec will never be carebear hug hug land Oh, but it already is that... For the suicide gankers themselves. Especially if/when those said gankers are financed by alts, which allows them to mock the whole concept of risk-and-reward even more. suicide gankers fail often enough - but where there is 1 guy in a defenseless ship vs an organized group that has done this before wanting to kill him - why should they not get to win? ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Jet Savage	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:27:00 - [136] Originally by: lofty29 Freighters are meant to be escorted Thats the point with eve, do it in a gang, And love the protection babe, convoys are so cool to watch or ride in, or hire police..... or face up to the big fish alone with cunning, with guile or just travel late on a Sunday nite when the kiddies with big guns are tucked up in bed. ........................................ SAY HI TO MY PIRANHA DRONES, KISSY KISSY !!
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:31:00 - [137] Originally by: Celestal Load 1 rookie on each gate , dont even bother to change rookie fitting . Then before you jump in , shoot anyone nearby or the gate with your civilian weapon ( not the miner u idiot ) , BINGO concord is preloaded in case you get shot at . dock your egg get a free ship to preload nezt time . Is it an abuse of game mechanics ? . In my mind its no more abuse then the suicide gankers so perfectly valid to me . Now THIS is an option I'd like to try sometime. While it may be an abuse of game mechanics, that never stopped PrivateRears, did it? The only caveat I would add is that I think Concord responds with a set of ships for each lawbreaker. In other words, one ship shooting does not call all of the Concord in the system to the gate. So you'd have to have multiple trial accounts to get a good number of ships at a gate. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that point. I wholeheartedly endorse this tactic. Probably only worth doing in the .5 systems, and of course would take a lot of work to do. If it is ruled an exploit, it might focus CCP's attention to make suicide ganking unprofitable. Note that I said Unprofitable, not Impossible. This kind of service would even allow Noob players a way to form a Business Plan that actually would make them money. Or groups like Goonswarm. Cuz all it would need is a ship with a gun on it. Put it this way: Those who defend the 'right' to gank Freighters state that their style of play is valid, and that they 'deserve' to make money off of their chosen stype of play. I counter that Freighters were designed to haul huge amounts around, and Freighter pilots 'deserve' to be able to fill up their ships with goods and run trade routes if they wish. I'm tired of trying to make Life fair. I'm now searching for something that is unfair in my favor.
Agent Li	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:31:00 - [138] Originally by: Caiman Graystock What's the myth people perpetuate that 0.5 and above means you are invulnerable and the police will prevent any and every crime instantly as it happens- just like they do in the real world, eh? Actually, the CONCORD response time is much better than real police. I'm rather pleased with CONCORD. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Granmethedon III High4Life	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:33:00 - [139] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Caiman Graystock What's the myth people perpetuate that 0.5 and above means you are invulnerable and the police will prevent any and every crime instantly as it happens- just like they do in the real world, eh? Actually, the CONCORD response time is much better than real police. I'm rather pleased with CONCORD. I hate CONCORD. I wanna suicide gank someone, THEN gank CONCORD.
Inevitability Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:37:00 - [140] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Originally by: Imperator Jora'h A well setup suicide attack can easily avoid your scouts. Bit more work but easily accounted for. Only the lazy ones will just sit with 20 Domis hovering over a gate for all to see. People like easy/afk targets. Your response makes me think your after an easy win button for freighters and you either aren't familiar with how good scouts operate or your trying to simplyfy it to be dismissive. It is simple. Gank squad stays just off grid. Heck...they can stay across the system or even docked. An Alt or three in shuttles bump freighter. Easily done, keeps him from warping indefinitely. Gank squad warps in and goes to work. Exactly...So you could be warping your freighter yourself, it has nothing to do with AFK. The mechanics are screwed up when this can be done. Not all freighter pilots make billions, it's usually alts of large alliances that do. Don't tell me it's fair because it's not. *Please Contact In-Game For Winning Bids*
Ki An Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:45:00 - [141] Originally by: Inevitability Don't tell me it's fair because it's not. It's fair. /Ki Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Inevitability Lightspeed Enterprises Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:45:00 - [142] Originally by: Mashie Saldana For the sake of the argument, instead of giving a freighter an extra lowslot for a DCII, CCP might just as well double the hull hitpoints. Good suggestion. *Please Contact In-Game For Winning Bids*
Jenna Shame	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:45:00 - [143] So the gank squad was just off grid cloaked too? Scanner ftw. Jesus people LTP. And if someone keeps bumping you and you see a hostile fleet incoming on scanner...LOG.
Granmethedon III High4Life	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:47:00 - [144] Originally by: Jenna Shame So the gank squad was just off grid cloaked too? Scanner ftw. Jesus people LTP. And if someone keeps bumping you and you see a hostile fleet incoming on scanner...LOG. Something else that should be got shut of - emergency warps on logging.
Sangela Tareyn	Posted - 2007.07.23 15:55:00 - [145] Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! Do you hear that Mr Anderson? That is the sound of Inevitability, it is the sound of him whining like a little girl. Sangela.
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 16:00:00 - [146] Originally by: Inevitability Niarja 0.5 Domain....Freighter down in under 30 seconds. When are you gonna fix this CCP?! Fix what? This is Eve not My Little Pony
Reachok Amarr Omiracon Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.23 16:16:00 - [147] The assumption in this thread seems to be that the gankers are actually after a profit or isk at all. If 20 pilots with enough isk to burn so that a fully T1 fitted (maybe even some T2 mods as well) BS is not an issue if lost decide they want to go gank some hapless freighter pilot at a gate, it's not a profit issue. It's all about laughing and having a great time talking about how the guy hollered in local, or tried to convo one of them. Then laughing some more when the incident appears in a thread like this one. In this situation, these guys could care less if 100% of the cargo survived, they ganked a freighter in hi sec. If that was their goal, they succeeded. I'm not here to discuss ways of countering that. Or pointing fingers and calling names. I've seen some very nice suggestions and intend to test some on the test server for future reference. Sometimes, it's all about the gank.
Ki An Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.23 16:21:00 - [148] Originally by: Reachok The assumption in this thread seems to be that the gankers are actually after a profit or isk at all. If 20 pilots with enough isk to burn so that a fully T1 fitted (maybe even some T2 mods as well) BS is not an issue if lost decide they want to go gank some hapless freighter pilot at a gate, it's not a profit issue. It's all about laughing and having a great time talking about how the guy hollered in local, or tried to convo one of them. Then laughing some more when the incident appears in a thread like this one. In this situation, these guys could care less if 100% of the cargo survived, they ganked a freighter in hi sec. If that was their goal, they succeeded. I'm not here to discuss ways of countering that. Or pointing fingers and calling names. I've seen some very nice suggestions and intend to test some on the test server for future reference. Sometimes, it's all about the gank. No, it's about the isk. /Ki Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Reachok Amarr Omiracon Technologies	Posted - 2007.07.23 16:28:00 - [149] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Reachok The assumption in this thread seems to be that the gankers are actually after a profit or isk at all. If 20 pilots with enough isk to burn so that a fully T1 fitted (maybe even some T2 mods as well) BS is not an issue if lost decide they want to go gank some hapless freighter pilot at a gate, it's not a profit issue. It's all about laughing and having a great time talking about how the guy hollered in local, or tried to convo one of them. Then laughing some more when the incident appears in a thread like this one. In this situation, these guys could care less if 100% of the cargo survived, they ganked a freighter in hi sec. If that was their goal, they succeeded. I'm not here to discuss ways of countering that. Or pointing fingers and calling names. I've seen some very nice suggestions and intend to test some on the test server for future reference. Sometimes, it's all about the gank. No, it's about the isk. /Ki Hmm, two one line answers. So, was it you then and some corpmates? And was the isk/loot worth it? Or, you just like one line posts, lol?
Ki An Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.23 16:50:00 - [150] Originally by: Reachok Hmm, two one line answers. So, was it you then and some corpmates? And was the isk/loot worth it? Or, you just like one line posts, lol? Not me this time. /Ki Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.23 17:20:00 - [151] Originally by: Reachok Sometimes, it's all about the gank. Indeed, sometimes it is. And those few occasions are pretty irrelevant when discussing about perceived need to tweak freighter balance. So in the end its all about the ISK: do profits encourage or discourage ganking? Considering the lack of reported pure griefing cases (none?), and only a few reported succesful ganks, looks quite pretty for an ordinary (non-afk) hauler. -Lasse
Vanye Inovske Two Brothers Mining Corp. The Sundering	Posted - 2007.07.23 23:01:00 - [152] Even if it is all about the gank, isk is still going to be a factor. I mean, really, if you've gone to the trouble of assembling a 20-BS gankfleet, you're gonna get someone with a passive targeter to do some cargo scans to pick a worthwhile victim. Your goal might be simply to gank a freighter, but why gank the guy with 20M trit when you can gank the guy full of HACs instead? Because of this I would think that any freighter with under 2B in the hold is vanishingly unlikely to be ganked, which means any routine mineral/ice loads should be fine. Which is a good thing, because it's simply not possible to convince people to escort freighters all the time, especially to haul some trit 6 jumps through high sec. For the really valuable loads, I'm fine with escorts being needed. A couple scouts should do the trick. People talk about remote reppers (a BS with a mwd and a full rack of larges is likely going to do better than a logistics cruiser), but frankly I think they'd likely fail. We did some math in an earlier thread, and IF the BS come through the gate in range of the freighter, and IF they time the first cycle right and IF they aren't lagged all to hell and unable to do anything, then they have a pretty good chance of saving the freighter. Too many ifs, particularly that last one. A scout will save you from any fleet already on a gate, and a webber will save you from anyone warping in from out of scanner range, so with two guys in T1 frigs you should be nearly untouchable. And you don't have to be actually untouchable - just enough harder to gank than the next guy that the gankers will decide to wait for an easier target.
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.07.23 23:16:00 - [153] Rofl Ya know its kinda stupid. On one hand you gotta transport a lot of material worth a serious amount of money On the OTHER hand you have to put a fifty ship fleet together just to get it to its destination. Thus making the cost of transport not even worth the effort. Whats the point?
Christari Zuborov Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.23 23:33:00 - [154] Originally by: Kuseka Adama Rofl Ya know its kinda stupid. On one hand you gotta transport a lot of material worth a serious amount of money On the OTHER hand you have to put a fifty ship fleet together just to get it to its destination. Thus making the cost of transport not even worth the effort. Whats the point? The point is, don't fill it with Gold bars if you're hauling it around in a grocery cart. Limit your loads.
Terail Zoqial	Posted - 2007.07.23 23:45:00 - [155] The freighters design is inherently flawed. Thousend of years in the future and each race designs massive cargo ships with no means of self preservation, or way to repair itself. The future is stupid.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr UK Corp FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.24 01:00:00 - [156] People should stop playing EVE in solo mode and should think ahead before doing something, otherwise it might might end in whining on the forums Yes, I use lasers, please stop laughing in the back.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.24 01:25:00 - [157] Originally by: Terail Zoqial The freighters design is inherently flawed. Thousend of years in the future and each race designs massive cargo ships with no means of self preservation, or way to repair itself. The future is stupid. no they will make really fortified ships and the other races wont adapt their weapons to destroy said ships because its too hard ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.07.24 16:18:00 - [158] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h I disagree. It is not that suicide ganks exist. It is that they are enabled (to a large extent) by a bogus game mechanic (insurance payouts when you break the law). Further, there is no very good or reasonable way to protect the freighter. The freighter cannot use mods and you'd need a fleet of support ships to have a fair chance at surviving a suicide gank. I agree on the insurance payout thing, I don't see why you should be insured for a criminal act, but hey it'sa crazy world we live in. As for protecting the freighter, I would have thought a support ship and a couple of guards would suffice... afterall if you're moving billion's in ISK, you should have some player protection. Originally by: Taikun Riggghhhttt... So if I made several alts and hooked up with my buddies with the express purpose just to suicide on you over irrespective of Concord this is the 'point' of eve is it? Many feel that intentional suiciding 20+ battleships and swooping in with a unganged alt to pick up the spoils of a freighter kill is against CCP 'intent' for how the game was to be played. Taikun AS long you lost your ships to Concorde, I wouldn't complain... however I don't autopilot whilst carrying valuable cargo As for intent on how the game is meant to be played, well it's a player driven principle (just like jet-can mining). If you want to throw away 20 battleships that's your choice, in the same it's the choice of the freighter pilot to afk or fly alone.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.07.24 16:27:00 - [159] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain I agree on the insurance payout thing, I don't see why you should be insured for a criminal act, but hey it'sa crazy world we live in. As for protecting the freighter, I would have thought a support ship and a couple of guards would suffice... afterall if you're moving billion's in ISK, you should have some player protection. You thought wrong. Combat ships do nothing to stop suicide gankers, who plan to lose their ships anyway, and the number of logistics ships you'd need to block the amount of damage dealed in the first strike is obscene. Thats assuming your logistics fleet actually manage to lock the freighter before the gankers do, of course.
Ki An Gallente KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.07.24 16:36:00 - [160] Originally by: Elmicker Combat ships do nothing to stop suicide gankers, who plan to lose their ships anyway, and the number of logistics ships you'd need to block the amount of damage dealed in the first strike is obscene. Thats assuming your logistics fleet actually manage to lock the freighter before the gankers do, of course. No, combat ships won't stop a suicide gank once it has begun. Thank God there are a myriad other ways to AVOID said suicide gank. /Ki Remember kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.07.24 16:46:00 - [161] I thought we covered all this? 1. Do NOT fly your freighter on AP 2. Do NOT fly your freighter without a scout/escort 3. Do NOT fly your freighter on AP 4. do NOT fly your freighter without a scout/escort CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.28 01:05:00 - [162] Originally by: Jenna Shame Solution, don't fly with 10's of billions in a freighter. No one can claim ignorance at this point, just stupidity. There are so many ways to avoid this but people just want to use their magic carebearing transport machines while they go watch TV. Serves them right. It doesn't matter if you have cargo or not. Many suicide ganks are just for the hell of it because they know the freighter pilot is going to lose several hundred million which is the difference between the cost of the freighter and the platinum insurance payout plus the cost of the insurance itself. The gankers often lose nothing to achieve this so even without a hold full of stuff to scoop, the gankers always win. --
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.28 01:10:00 - [163] I really love how the community keeps letting this thread die a natural death, and then someone randomly just tears it out of the grave to make a point already made somewhere else in that thread or a hundred other threads on the same subject. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION \| Forum Whiners - Unite!
cuteboylookingatyou	Posted - 2007.08.19 21:34:00 - [164] Originally by: 000Hunter000 I thought we covered all this? 1. Do NOT fly your freighter on AP 2. Do NOT fly your freighter without a scout/escort 3. Do NOT fly your freighter on AP 4. do NOT fly your freighter without a scout/escort This ship is easy to kill.
cuteboylookingatyou	Posted - 2007.08.22 17:33:00 - [165] Originally by: Drizit Originally by: Jenna Shame Solution, don't fly with 10's of billions in a freighter. No one can claim ignorance at this point, just stupidity. There are so many ways to avoid this but people just want to use their magic carebearing transport machines while they go watch TV. Serves them right. It doesn't matter if you have cargo or not. Many suicide ganks are just for the hell of it because they know the freighter pilot is going to lose several hundred million which is the difference between the cost of the freighter and the platinum insurance payout plus the cost of the insurance itself. The gankers often lose nothing to achieve this so even without a hold full of stuff to scoop, the gankers always win. Do you really mean that if you take precautions it is still up to the gankers to decide if you die or not? I disagree I think smart play can keep your freighter from dying even if you use nothing but a scout.
cuteboylookingatyou	Posted - 2007.08.23 15:42:00 - [166] I saw a freighter die today. It is funny I gave fashion advice to the captain just minutes before.
Ponket Strom Minmatar Slaughters of Scum Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.23 16:28:00 - [167] Originally by: cuteboylookingatyou I saw a freighter die today. It is funny I gave fashion advice to the captain just minutes before. Where?
Empire marketslave	Posted - 2007.08.23 16:58:00 - [168] Edited by: Empire marketslave on 23/08/2007 17:01:32 Originally by: 000Hunter000 I thought we covered all this? 1. Do NOT fly your freighter on AP 2. Do NOT fly your freighter without a scout/escort 3. Do NOT fly your freighter on AP 4. do NOT fly your freighter without a scout/escort 1.Valid 2.How will this stop a group of 20 Domi in a non war dec'd corp in an empire system when you cant attack them until after they have unleased thier wrath on the freighter 3.since you repeated, this will not help for the other side of the gate 4. you reapeated again so more ways this isn't plauasible, the problem is the drones not the ships have fun killing 100 heavy t2 drones even a scout wont help since they can sit at a gate bump you until they all warp in or they could be a suicidal warp scrambling frig to pin you down until they warp in the only way it could be "fixed" is for concord to stop drones from attacking

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