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So titans are now Underpowerd?

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Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.07.25 11:31:00 - [91] Originally by: Kerfira If the titan did any of the support roles you mention well, you could have a point, but it doesn't..... Jump bridge: Very useful, but way too short range. Not worth 60b+ though... I think you underestimate the usefulness of this module, this ability in itself is huge. Quote: Hangar space: A complete and utter joke. It holds 5 battleships you play nice with numbers here to argue them in your favor, but how many HAC's is that, 50-60? i think most people would agree that's a large hanger size. Quote: Gang bonus: Not much more than supplied by a proper command ship. I.e. not worth 60+b either. Anyone who's played EVE a long time knows that every % helps, and your not just paying for the gang bonus. Quote: Their tank is laughable, they can't maneuver because of crappy physics engine, using them in combat is basically suicide UNLESS you use them against enemies that are already inferior to you (hardly something to encourage either). I agree that EvE physics needs looking at, but remember when you build a titan, your not just getting the command bonus, or the jump bridge or the DDD, or the hanger space, your getting everything all built into 1 ship.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.25 11:49:00 - [92] Originally by: PhantomVyper I really love watching as only BoB members and alts are arguing that the Titan nerf was a bad thing. Everyone else just aplauds CCP for it because it has helped to take the focus of big fleet battles away from capital ships and back into the smaller vessels where it should belong IMO. That beeing said, smartbombs really should affect wrecks and bodies. The idea of having that large a ship stoped in its track by a smaller object is a bit ridiculous. However changing the current mecanics would probably be too dificult so the quickest fix for it would be to allow smartbombs to deal with it. Um, everyone is an alt of someone dude unless you're suggesting every alt in here is bob (tinfoil?!) . Kind of like sying it was just goonies and there alts in the nerf titan threads previously. Everyone has there own viewpoint and is entitled to it. Certainly doesn't make them an alt/ pet/ slave/ insert witty fotm saying here GOONIES = OMNIPOTENCE INCARNATE
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.25 11:55:00 - [93] Originally by: fire 59 Originally by: PhantomVyper I really love watching as only BoB members and alts are arguing that the Titan nerf was a bad thing. Everyone else just aplauds CCP for it because it has helped to take the focus of big fleet battles away from capital ships and back into the smaller vessels where it should belong IMO. That beeing said, smartbombs really should affect wrecks and bodies. The idea of having that large a ship stoped in its track by a smaller object is a bit ridiculous. However changing the current mecanics would probably be too dificult so the quickest fix for it would be to allow smartbombs to deal with it. Um, everyone is an alt of someone dude unless you're suggesting every alt in here is bob (tinfoil?!) . Kind of like sying it was just goonies and there alts in the nerf titan threads previously. Everyone has there own viewpoint and is entitled to it. Certainly doesn't make them an alt/ pet/ slave/ insert witty fotm saying here I was saying BoB members AND alts, not that the alts are alts of BoB (even though that has a pretty large probability of beeing correct).
Vincent S	Posted - 2007.07.25 11:55:00 - [94] Edited by: Vincent S on 25/07/2007 11:56:15 Titans were the most stupid thing ever introduced to this game, and threatened to destroy everything that was fun about it. I still think titans are WAY overpowered with the jump bridge ability and the insane bonuses. They shouldn't have been put in the game to begin with, but at least now they don't make any sort of fight impossible anymore. Edit: I do feel for the people who spend a lot of time and effort to build them, but considering they totally destroyed any hope of having fun in this game on the alliance level, the nerf was necessary.
Sparta Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.07.25 11:59:00 - [95] I want a new toy Titan too!
Shoukei	Posted - 2007.07.25 12:00:00 - [96] Originally by: PhantomVyper I was saying BoB members AND alts, not that the alts are alts of BoB (even though that has a pretty large probability of beeing correct). good work. nice trolling and you made another fool fall for it. trying to reason with a troll, lol
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.07.25 12:41:00 - [97] Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Originally by: Kerfira Hangar space: A complete and utter joke. It holds 5 battleships you play nice with numbers here to argue them in your favor, but how many HAC's is that, 50-60? i think most people would agree that's a large hanger size. I can say, 'So do you'... The reason I chose battleships is because they're what's difficult to replace in combat. BC's, HAC's, etc., are all easy to replace as they can be much more easily supplied by carriers (with their much longer jump range). The battleships however, is the main ships in fleets. If the titan's job is fleet support in that way, it should be able to carry a useful number of any non-capital ships. Originally by: Chrysalis D'lilth Originally by: Kerfira Gang bonus: Not much more than supplied by a proper command ship. I.e. not worth 60+b either. Anyone who's played EVE a long time knows that every % helps, and your not just paying for the gang bonus. There is a certain difference between a 200m command ship and a 60b titan... not to mention the cost and training length of skills. So, you get the jump bridge (which IS useful), the hangar space of 10 carriers (at the cost of half the range), and a bit of gang bonus..... No wonder titan building has come to a complete halt since the nerf.... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.07.25 12:47:00 - [98] Originally by: Kerfira Gang bonus: Not much more than supplied by a proper command ship. I.e. not worth 60+b either. errr... except for the signature bonus, there's no link for the titans' abilities (buff minmatar! ^^) virtually pumping up 100 dreads by these 30% is indeed worth 60bil. make that 100 capitals in general + support - and i believe pilots go for titan V it's a fleet mobil, nothing more nothing less. in the meantime, jump-portal your freighters full of plutonium from venal all the way to catch for 2bil a day - do this 5-6 times during a single month and there's your 60bil. - putting the gist back into logistics
Lord Zoran Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.07.25 12:57:00 - [99] Edited by: Lord Zoran on 25/07/2007 12:57:24 i havent had any experience with capitals yet but of what i have heard and seen in vids it does seem they are a tad easy to kill for the amount of isk they are..... --------------------------------------------- no sig for you !!!
Boonaki Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.07.25 13:19:00 - [100] Originally by: MotherMoon please edit your post so we can read it. English isn't his first language. Proper spelling isn't a requirement on the forum. His points are valid, so are many of the other points. You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Fear the Ibis of doom! 113
Matrixcvd Last Serenity The Sundering	Posted - 2007.07.25 14:02:00 - [101] Originally by: PhantomVyper I really love watching as only BoB members and alts are arguing that the Titan nerf was a bad thing. Everyone else just aplauds CCP for it because it has helped to take the focus of big fleet battles away from capital ships and back into the smaller vessels where it should belong IMO. That beeing said, smartbombs really should affect wrecks and bodies. The idea of having that large a ship stoped in its track by a smaller object is a bit ridiculous. However changing the current mecanics would probably be too dificult so the quickest fix for it would be to allow smartbombs to deal with it. Wow Beat me too it. The people that have lost titans and have a bunch more to loose are the only ones complaining. its hilarious tbh. But it comes back to the argument of cost vs reward, blob vs skillpoints (which is not directly related to skill). People say they would rather have 50 dreads. And I say go out and and build them, and field 50 dreads against 100 support fleet, and you loose the dreads. Support fleet is everything so hate the blob or not but if you can't field it you can't have caps on the grid. You have to chose, should i field 20 carriers or have more of those pilots go in as support and ACTUALLY USE TACTICS AND SKILL. Too many times certain high skillpoint/wealth, alliances/corps go nuts with supcap/caps in their fleets and not enough support and they loose. So the Titan nerf has really allowed a shift in politics and will continue to for quite some time. thats the difference between a "certain alliance" is that with caps/previous super caps, they could go in and decimate a support fleet 10's of LYs away with having far fewer numbers and basically throw their little rich weight around risking nothing. The alliance with this attitude can't just try and control multiple regions by merely setting up a cyno DD and killing enemies so taht a 30 man gank squad could run amock. For the people out there that say a dictor can hold a titan, wrecks can hold a titan, it obviously means YOU CANT HOLD THE system either. Even 5 dictors, i have seen soem fast ships out there and if you cant dispatch 5 dictors from the field then you don't deserve to win. 10 Ships targeting 5 wrecks at a time can remove enough wrecks around a titan in enough time for 3 or 4 vaga's to remove the dictors, but to the people out their complaining, you can't seem to be able to do that so you don't use them. So more effort and fleet combat is bound to happen, hopefully now de-synch is dead, Titans will be used but when supported and can not hijack someone's space 30 jumps away without the help of a fleet.
Nahia Senne Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.25 14:15:00 - [102] Originally by: Matrixcvd ..stuff.. just a few dreads will down a titan in under 3 minutes. how often did you risk 70-80bil to fire just one DD and then die due to being primary?
Le Bon Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.25 14:27:00 - [103] Ignore my tag and alliance a second and dont take this as a whine more of an educated post from long months of warefare with and without the titans. The titan was overpowered before in the sence it could jump onto a field, doomsday and then continue to jump out within 20 seconds rendering it invulnerable. HOWEVER. Any smart FC and a team of people paying attention could easily avoid doomsday by staying aligned and warping when told (Granted, thiers lag.. but the titan pilot also suffers such lag rendering it balanced.) I have no objection with the no jump out rule, some sort of apprisal for such a tool is balancing. We must not forget that a titan has amazing logistical abilities such as the ability to jump an entire fleet into a system without using jump gates which have amazing tactical implications on defending fleets. But.. is this alone worth 40bil+mods? No. Its primarily a combat ship according to the old cronicals but since the recent patches its been rendered as only a glorfied industry ship. Why? It is impossible to have a titan on the field in modern day warefare without heavy losses of capitals. If your fighting enemies that have any sort of a clue they will be on you like a shot dictor rushes etc.. But meh. Another possible tactic for titan pilots? Nanos. Jump in, align, DD, warp to a prepared safe spot and cloak for 10 minutes.. No problems Excuse if my post makes absoluetely 0 sence at points as im at work and havn't really got the time to sift through it. = Ninja Smack Alt
Angelus Damelon Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.07.25 15:04:00 - [104] Post-nerf Titans are better than pre-nerf Titans, but they never should have been introduced as an offensive weapon in the first place. The DD should always have been balanced as a defensive measure. They absolutely should be able to be tackled (the idea of needing supercapitals to tackle supercapitals is laughable, by the way), and remote DD absolutely should have been removed as well. What would be fair is improved abilities as a forward base of operations. Their role right now is primarily fleet support -- logistics, bonuses, jump bridging. Expand on that a bit. I hear that the clone bay is either broken or utterly useless -- fix that. Make them into mini-stations or mega-POSes that can be deployed in space -- a forward base that can be deployed. And for the love of god, do some theory crafting to make sure it isn't going to utterly break warfare yet again. Make it take a certain amount of time to anchor and unanchor, so you need a support fleet to protect it. Once anchored, it should have defense modules like POSes do and station services like outposts do -- providing both a defense, so that hostiles cannot camp your anchored Titan with bubbles, but also the ability to shoot and disable those defenses and services to disable them. While anchored, the Titan itself is invulnerable -- but also immobile, and no DD. Just some ideas, by no means thorough or fully balanced. But something in that mold would make Titans worth the investment, without making them invulnerable, game-breaking offensive weapons.
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.07.25 15:20:00 - [105] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Hugh Ruka However we seem to follow a rule of more damage is better, because EVERY other mechanic does NOT WORK well or at all - EW, NOS, logistics in part etc. We have a disjoint system where damage (and speed as second) is the king overruling all other aspects. That's why we see blobing as a problem (yes lag is a large factor too). this puts so many things into perspective beg your pardon ... can you please explain if you meant that sarcastic/ironic/honest ? My English is not that good ... thanks Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Matrixcvd Last Serenity The Sundering	Posted - 2007.07.25 15:52:00 - [106] Originally by: Le Bon We must not forget that a titan has amazing logistical abilities such as the ability to jump an entire fleet into a system without using jump gates which have amazing tactical implications on defending fleets. But.. is this alone worth 40bil+mods? No. I dissagree. The point is, is that they are no longer the soloIowntheregion, you have to pick and chose when to use them. Sending them into DD a bunch of BS's and a carrier or two on the gate is not one of them, especially if you are just softening up for some sort of roaming gang. Brining one in to mitigate other SuperCaps is when they should be used, as a counter to the enemy's supercaps. The ability to jump in an unscouted unreconed fleet into the battle is without question worth every penny if the mission is there to justify it. No need to give examples but there are numerous tactical situations outside that which you could bring the titan in (with adaquete support) and risk it against other super caps in the oppertunity that you might take their 30-60 billion isk ships out. And I believe that was the point of the nerfs and the intention. Originally by: Le Bon It is impossible to have a titan on the field in modern day warefare without heavy losses of capitals. If your fighting enemies that have any sort of a clue they will be on you like a shot dictor rushes etc.. But meh. And if you had a clue you would have the necessary anti tackler/dictor fleet with you, and if your planning is better and excution is better you will win, minus de-synch+lag.
fuze	Posted - 2007.07.25 15:53:00 - [107] Originally by: Matrixcvd So the Titan nerf has really allowed a shift in politics and will continue to for quite some time. thats the difference between a "certain alliance" is that with caps/previous super caps, they could go in and decimate a support fleet 10's of LYs away with having far fewer numbers and basically throw their little rich weight around risking nothing. The alliance with this attitude can't just try and control multiple regions by merely setting up a cyno DD and killing enemies so taht a 30 man gank squad could run amock. The point of this whole debate is that it's tainted with politics all the way. Before the nerf the forum postings just went through the roof. And it had some validity in it. But even though I'm no BoB alt, pet or even fanboi I still think they got nerfed too much. And I don't care on how much ISK BoB invested in their flying dongs. Although building a Titan on itself is a great achievement. The point is that like Darcuese said there is nothing in between here. A ship with this pricetag on it got nutered down to a industrial supercapital. One thing is that I hope that CCP does realize that they should rethink their nerfings a tad more better and take in account that it not only influences the political landscape as well as be fair for those who own such a behemoth. And to the role of support I agree fully that these ships shouldn't survive without them. But taking them down in 3-5 min with just a few dreads is pathetic IMHO. What about super-capital modules? Just like the jumpbridge and DDD.
Wild Rho Amarr Endgame.	Posted - 2007.07.25 15:55:00 - [108] Originally by: Kerfira If the titan did any of the support roles you mention well, you could have a point, but it doesn't..... Jump bridge: Very useful, but way too short range. Not worth 60b+ though... Hangar space: A complete and utter joke. It holds 5 battleships Gang bonus: Not much more than supplied by a proper command ship. I.e. not worth 60+b either. Their tank is laughable, they can't maneuver because of crappy physics engine, using them in combat is basically suicide UNLESS you use them against enemies that are already inferior to you (hardly something to encourage either). The guy who suggested capital scramblers instead of interdictor bubbles made a good argument for it, but it'd still need changes to tank and physics to make them useful again.... PS: I LIKE the idea of big! Big ships! Big losses! Big explosions! etc., etc. Titans/mommyships in combat adds a lot to the epic scope EVE... It's just sad that this epic aspect of the game has been removed... Fair points. My answer to that would be to improve it's support capabilities (except the gang bonuses as that's more in the realm of the command ships). Give it the hanger capacity to actually carry a large complement of battleships and smaller craft (up to at least 40 battleships for example) with all the fittings. While this means a larger fleet could not be fully replaced it does give the Titans fleet respectable reserves they can draw upon when operating far from home. The Titans sec based restrictions (no high sec) and the fact it cannot dock prevents it from stepping on the role of the freighters for bulk shipments to any great degree. I've no experience with the jump bridge so I'll have to take your word for it. As for the tank I don't think its good as it is because it provides the Titan with a strong incentive to operate with a nearby support fleet. I don't think Titans added anything Epic to fleet combat at all, just the opposite infact. They ultimately dominated and overshadowed any fleet engagement they were involved in to the point people just wouldn't fight with the almost certain risk of losing everything to a DD - great fun for the few titan pilots, very boring for almost everyone else.
Matrixcvd Last Serenity The Sundering	Posted - 2007.07.25 16:08:00 - [109] Originally by: Nahia Senne Originally by: Matrixcvd ..stuff.. just a few dreads will down a titan in under 3 minutes. how often did you risk 70-80bil to fire just one DD and then die due to being primary? To have a roaming 20 man HAC gang call in a titan on a bunch of BS's and then all of a sudden see local fill up to over 100. Not smart. But you already knew that but couldn't break free from the good ole days of jumpin a couple in and DD once every 20 minutes. Boo hoo, can't get ubermegakills now... We are now in July of 2007 and uhm, see, that would be dumb, the mechanics have changed get over it, you guys tried to continue the tactic and lost one so now you go back to your shell which is fine. it gets called primary cause there is nobody left to shoot at in system, so tsk tsk. Supercap V Supercap, support V support. Don't fly home without em don't leave'm out to dry
Matrixcvd Last Serenity The Sundering	Posted - 2007.07.25 16:16:00 - [110] Originally by: fuze The point is that like Darcuese said there is nothing in between here. A ship with this pricetag on it got nutered down to a industrial supercapital. Thats his opinion, it can be a huge offensive weapon in certain situations but you can't just log in as a titan pilot now and say "GIVE ME 500 Killmails TODAY FC" cause its not gonna happen. Originally by: fuze One thing is that I hope that CCP does realize that they should rethink their nerfings a tad more better and take in account that it not only influences the political landscape as well as be fair for those who own such a behemoth. if this were really the case the domi would only have 1 NOS slot and they be stacked nerf to all hell on other ships Originally by: fuze And to the role of support I agree fully that these ships shouldn't survive without them. But taking them down in 3-5 min with just a few dreads is pathetic IMHO. What about super-capital modules? Just like the jumpbridge and DDD. A few dreads? So you are telling me alliances are loosing titans cause 3 dreads happen to undock from a station and lo and behold, A TITAN sitting within range of the station, just DDing the services, the dreads go into siege and kill the titan before he can jump out? Must have been a drunk titan pilot
Sebastien LeReparteur Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.25 16:27:00 - [111] Originally by: Kerfira Originally by: Wild Rho [...] If the titan did any of the support roles you mention well, you could have a point, but it doesn't..... Jump bridge: [...] Not worth 60b+ though... Hangar space: A complete and utter joke. It holds 5 battleships Gang bonus: Not much more than supplied by a proper command ship. I.e. not worth 60+b either. Agreed that individually each bonus is not worth 60 bill that is why it is not worth 180 bill... But all bonus together It is worth the 60 big... Unbreakability? This thing is a titan not a dreadnought why should we get a 2nd bigger dread? would be pointless -----------
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.25 16:52:00 - [112] for the people asking why 3 titans when you can get 165 dreads - well some alliances dont like to have mass - let alone the lag factor - its easier to get 3 well skilled titan pilots then 165 well skilled dread pilots believe it or not - and theres more useful stuff than 165 dreads ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
CSFFlame GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.07.25 17:03:00 - [113] Edited by: CSFFlame on 25/07/2007 17:03:56 Originally by: Neena Valdi Just a question. Lets imagine situation. Hostiles have 70-80 dreads in a siege mode stomping the Titan along with 5+ motherships (the numbers are quite possible nowadays). The question: what you need to do to save the said titan? You lose it because the enemy brought enough firepower to bring it down, and despite your ewar invulnerability, you took the titan ongrid with them, outside a POS shield, without a support fleet.
Sebastien LeReparteur Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.07.25 17:11:00 - [114] What is the saying to noobs on this forum again? Adapt or die? Avid poster will throw it out very fast but rarely take the advice them self. -----------
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises	Posted - 2007.07.25 18:06:00 - [115] Originally by: CCP Fendahl We discussed this briefly when looking into the super cap issues, but sadly no amount of cap usage on the DD would prevent a titan from jumping almost immediately after firing the DD. An Avatar in gang can obtain a recharge time of 7.96sec with the right modules. This means that even if the DD completely drained the titan's cap, then it would have recovered a sufficient amount of cap to jump after approximately 3sec (barely enough time to type "LOL" in local ). Granted, the setup would probably cost as much as the titan itself, but in my opinion price alone cannot justify (virtual) invulnerability. The problem is that cap recharge is not stacking nerfed as it ought to have been. Unfortunately making cap recharge stacking nerfed would break a very large number of setups and aside from "fringe issues" like this one there aren't any truly compelling reasons for doing so and having to re-balance every single ship. One word: broken _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. -
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.25 18:07:00 - [116] titans were not meant as solo pwnmobiles and having the dd so easy to use allowed them to be - they are nearly invulnerable support ships and thats what they are great at ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch	Posted - 2007.07.25 20:20:00 - [117] Simple fix: Rather then allow regular bubbles to jam them, give dreads a titan stopping bubble instead and only allow them to activate it in Siege mode. That way it would require the opposing force to "dig in" and remove the somewhat laughable ability of dictors to stop a ship of that size. From an RP perspective: It really bugs me that large ships don't have enough presence on the battlefield. A titan should be like a super-stardestroyer in Star Wars, the type of ship a galactic empire can only afford to have a couple of but makes your enemies flee in terror the moment it arrives on the battlefield. CCP either need to make it so dictors can't stop a titan, or if it is jammed, give it the hp/resists or other attributes that would make it capable of succeeding in its role (which the RP-like descriptions seem to indicate, should be alot more difficult to destroy (3 min to kill for any fleet that has existed in eve is just laughable) and should have the DPS to make a difference in the battle), personally (and I say that never having flown a titan) I would tade the DDD for better weaponry (read:more useful throughout the duration of the battle). Someone above pointed out that PoS weapons have more structure then a Titan, to me that just seems stupid...... - Haradgrim [-WB-] That.which.does.not.bend.breaks
Kjetilen	Posted - 2007.07.25 23:09:00 - [118] yes they cant do anything now, please boost them.
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.07.25 23:51:00 - [119] Originally by: Haradgrim From an RP perspective: It really bugs me that large ships don't have enough presence on the battlefield. A titan should be like a super-stardestroyer in Star Wars, the type of ship a galactic empire can only afford to have a couple of but makes your enemies flee in terror the moment it arrives on the battlefield. Umm you do remember that the Executor was taken down by a single A-Wing through through the command deck. An A-wing is much much smaller then any dictors we have.. Didn't your mommy ever tell you that size dosen't matter. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.07.26 01:26:00 - [120] Originally by: Illyria Ambri Originally by: Haradgrim From an RP perspective: It really bugs me that large ships don't have enough presence on the battlefield. A titan should be like a super-stardestroyer in Star Wars, the type of ship a galactic empire can only afford to have a couple of but makes your enemies flee in terror the moment it arrives on the battlefield. Umm you do remember that the Executor was taken down by a single A-Wing through through the command deck. An A-wing is much much smaller then any dictors we have.. Didn't your mommy ever tell you that size dosen't matter. Uhm. You need to watch that scene again. From wookieepedia: Quote: The Executor was destroyed at the Battle of Endor after the shields protecting the bridge superstructure were knocked down by a heavy bombardment from the Rebel fleet. Rebel fighter pilot Arvel Crynyd, his A-wing spinning out of control, crashed into the Executor's unprotected command tower, smashing through portions of the bridge section, disabling the massive ship's navigational systems and causing it to drift into a collision with the incomplete second Death Star, where the Star Dreadnought was vaporized. Saying that the executor was taken out by an A-wing is kinda like saying that Molle's titan was taken out by an interdictor. Sure, it needed to be there, but the Dreads (MonCals) were the ships that really destroyed it (well, provided the firepower that lead to the ship's desctruction). Also, to the first poster in the post chain, a Revelation is larger than the Executor. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson

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