Lets once and for all prove or disprove these accusations.

If the watch-dog detects an intruder, the dog will bark.
The dog did not bark.
Therefore, no intruder was detected by the watch-dog.

A lack of proof isn't the same as disproof. Even if CCP were to thoroughly investigate each nullsec alliance and subsequently announce that they discovered no illicit activity, the matter still wouldn't be settled. CCP may simply have failed to catch them.

Consider this aspect of modus tollens:



It would be a logical fallacy to say, "The dog did not bark. Therefore, there is no intruder."

For my part, I choose not to have any opinion at all about large-scale alliance RMT. I personally have no proof and can't verify any of the rumors, and that's about as far as my capabilities extend.

Anyone got a link to the russian chest beating about how his RMT ring paid for a condo or a car or something?

Of the nullsec alliances my charcaters have been involved in - which comprise several high profile well established PVP alliances - I have never seen anything that would indicate botting or RMT (these are not the same thing) taking place. To me, most of the claims spewed forth on the fourms seems to be 1) part of the never ending propaganda war or 2) set forth by people auto-repeating said propagandists.

I might be wrong ofc, but it seems likely that the both botting and RMT issues - while they almost certainly exist - are hugely inflated.

Have you been at the leadership level?

Yes.

@baltec1 - Here you go

I brought several house and a multitude of cars, drugs and hookers with the money I made from RMT playing Eve..

Is that proof.. must be because I posted on the internet and that means it real

Well, when I was involved in the higher up workings the general rule of thumb was always "we don't talk about it". So I say that your lying. I can fly into Null any day of the week and find them Botting systems. Whoever says botting and RMT are not related has no idea how the two things connect, or how they work.

From secondlife to EVE online, people are cashing in on digital currency.

Lol. Say what you want. I think I have you labeled.

Can somebody show me some sort of evidence that shows an alliance or corporation, whether they be in high / low or null that is directly involved in RMT.

@Ursula LeGuinn so not matter what is done you will always believe alliances take part in RMT.. well that is fair.

I'm just quoting the most important question there.
It's not about modus tollens ("the way that denies by denying") as another poster here wrote.
It's about proof. Show and tell or it's all just inflated hearsay and perpetuated lies.

o/

It's about proof. Show and tell or it's all just inflated hearsay and perpetuated lies.

What is proof?


Recorded TS3, where a guy is "bragging" about it.... but nah, he didn't really do it, he is just blowing wind.
A fleet warping off as soon as a neutral enters system... nah, he just has multiple accounts.
Or... "he is just dedicated to the game" that is why he is so focused on taking that region 23/7. He didn't get paid to do it.
Those mountains of hulks mining like oompaloopas deep in drone space 23/7, they are just there for the scenery!





You won't consider anything to be "sufficient proof", so you should STFU too.

You won't consider anything to be "sufficient proof", so you should STFU too. What do you expect? CCP to subpoena players bank statements? Even then.... "That didn't come from RMT LOL I mow lawns on the side"

What is proof?

Recorded TS3, where a guy is "bragging" about it.... but nah, he didn't really do it, he is just blowing wind.
A fleet warping off as soon as a neutral enters system... nah, he just has multiple accounts.
Or... "he is just dedicated to the game" that is why he is so focused on taking that region 23/7. He didn't get paid to do it.
Those mountains of hulks mining like oompaloopas deep in drone space 23/7, they are just there for the scenery!

After reading your responses on this thread - and others - I have yet to see anything from you that doesnt fall into the category "unsubstantiated claims".

Hot Air - thats what you are about buddy.

So go do it yourself then.

Beyond linking recordings (which I don't have) onto these forums and getting myself banned in the process. What else can I do but speak of personal accounts? Even if I did link recordings... it becomes "that's your voice on that recording" and once again it is "not proof".



Your an idiot.

I think you just proved my point.

Is that supposed to be a retort to what I just stated? Because when you read it back it doesn't sound like one. You seem to be proving mine. You cannot prove anything to people who want botting and RMT to continue. They will continue to exaggerate things to the point where nothing can POSSIBLY be sufficient evidence.

So basically you say we should all take your unsubstatiated claims at face value.

gothca.

One more thing.. I keep seeing.. fleets warp off when a neut enters system.

I multi box often and there are plenty of tools that let me control all my accounts as if I was playing one, tools which have been deemed to be okay by CCP.

So yeah.. If I am in space and see a red enter local I can warp all my ships off at the same time.

Must mean I am a bot and involved in RMT.

One more thing.. I keep seeing.. fleets warp off when a neut enters system.

I multi box often and there are plenty of tools that let me control all my accounts as if I was playing one, tools which have been deemed to be okay by CCP.

So yeah.. If I am in space and see a red enter local I can warp all my ships off at the same time.

Must mean I am a bot and involved in RMT.

Hello botter, nice to meet you.

ISK selling sites do not exist.







You cannot prove that they exist.

ISK selling sites do not exist.







You cannot prove that they exist.

/tinfoil
And who says they are not an CCP sites to provoke players and then remove double ISK gained and getting payed for it.
Its illegal but on the internet.. if there is no suitor there is no cause.
/tinfoil

Over past few weeks I have noticed more and more people accusing null sec alliances of being in Involved in RMT Operations.

Now I am not part of any null sec alliances, I have no affiliation to anybody expect my own Corp and Alliance.

In several posts where somebody has accused an alliance being involved in RMT I have asked for evidence, some thing that backs up their claims and as of yet nobody has shown me any, if fact most of times they simply ignore the request.

Can somebody show me some sort of evidence that shows an alliance or corporation, whether they be in high / low or null that is directly involved in RMT.

Lets once and for all prove or disprove these accusations.

For all those people who truly believe that alliances are involved in RMT.. now is the time to put up or shut up.

People behave out of self interest.

If people are running around hunting bots and sabotaging them in other places than where they live, you have to ask yourself, "What is their motivation?"

As a wormholer we sometimes jump into deep nullsec with fleets of these miners who instantly log off. We see them on d-scan and then their gone off local and d asap. Are they bots? probably but its difficult to prove. Remember bots provide CCP with extra revenue. The fact they refuse almost entirely to even talk about bots is a good indication there not allowed to talk about them.

If they knew botting was a tiny small problem they would announce this and show how they know.

Just try and put yourself in their shoes. You options include:

1. Announce its a problem and spend man-hours dealing with it.
2. Dont talk about It at all and continue gaining revenue for all the extra accounts.
3. Announce its not a problem and hope not to get caught out and lose trust from the player base.

Which option would you choose if your a profit making company?

As a wormholer we sometimes jump into deep nullsec with fleets of these miners who instantly log off. We see them on d-scan and then their gone off local and d asap. Are they bots? probably but its difficult to prove.

Your an idiot.

That's a logical fallacy. Logically speaking, you can say only, "Show and tell, or your accusations are unsubstantiated."

Which is fair enough, but it's not the same thing as disproof.

But seriously I imagine there is some RMT going on in 0.0. Personally I have never heard of it or seen it within my alliance or its allies (or enemies for that matter). More often than not I see RMT accusations being thrown at people just becasue they happen to come from a certain part of the world.

All true and the best place to hide the truth is in a pack of lies.

RMT is real. CCP know it, they just don't hava solution. I don't hold that against them. It doesn't mean I should just accept it though.

Remember there's a difference between "RMT happens.", which I certainly believe, and the mantra that the Russians / Goons / Whoever are in on it and systematically profiteering.

Remember there's a difference between "RMT happens.", which I certainly believe, and the mantra that the Russians / Goons / Whoever are in on it and systematically profiteering.

If there's big money in RMT, and those involved are of a criminal class, then actually doing something about it could get people hurt.

Which is probably the real reason why the game mechanics (local for example) never change that could put a hard hit on botting.

Instead, to counter RMT and bots, ISK faucets have been fully opened and left open.

EVE by its nature accomodates the RMT circles. Killboards, Teamspeak, Vent, GTC affiliates. EVE is the perfect nesting ground for it. You run web sites for a living, playing games all day is just a perc. Forcing 400,000 people to play in such a way that your services are in demand is second nature.

There are however some things that do make you think. Such as the missing trillions in the NC and WN bank accounts which cannot be accounted for.

Got proof?



Got proof?



Okay, that's something solid. Do you have some links about this story that would show systemic RMT in the alliance, rather than someone just draining the wallet and running?

Okay, that's something solid. Do you have some links about this story that would show systemic RMT in the alliance, rather than someone just draining the wallet and running?

Prove I said it. Prove I'm me. Who am I?
Even if I could prove it, it isn't illegal. What's your point, Matlock?

Our corp ran several high up spies in the NC for years. Got wiffs and tidbits of it, money flowed out and several very rich people with access to wallets suddenly stopped playing but nothing solid. We knew it was going on and that the vast bulk of the NC were getting ****** over because of it.

what evidence you need really?
theres tons of RMT sites selling isk and plex at half price.
how do u think they get it? of course from big alliances in 00.

Then you have records, and something other than hearsay? Otherwise, everyone will just take that for propaganda, intended to smear an alliance's reputation and encourage distrust between members. Like all alliances have been doing consistently for years.

Heck, your enemies are probably alleging the same things from "highly placed sources" about you. :)

RMT is against the EULA.



Then you have records, and something other than hearsay? Otherwise, everyone will just take that for propaganda, intended to smear an alliance's reputation and encourage distrust between members. Like all alliances have been doing consistently for years.

Heck, your enemies are probably alleging the same things from "highly placed sources" about you. :)

Moon Goo is an I-Win button.

I think the leaders of the NC would like to have a word with you. Or for that matter the leaders of BoB before that. Look how much moon goo the russians have had, historically. Yet they are here. NC and BoB are not.

Ask him where all the isk went while you're at it

I think the leaders of the NC would like to have a word with you. Or for that matter the leaders of BoB before that. Look how much high-end moon goo the russians have had, historically. Yet they are here. NC and BoB are not.

Well, SOME of them have to be doing it. RMT sites are full of deadspace and officer modules.
Of course, they also have lots of faction items, so highsec carebears are just as guilty.

Repetaing old rumors dont make them any more true. Im not saying that it didnt happen. I'm saying that all that anybody has put forward regarding that issue is rumours. And to me, thats not something I use energy on.

As for the reason BoB and NC imploded, if you for a minute think that it was solely because their leaders RMTd away all the isk, you really dont give due credit to the people actually involved on their enemies side.

[quote=Reilly Duvolle]

You are playing for game glory. Phalic, game glory. NC fell, thier wallets were never conquered.

Smugglers don't leave tracks. It doesn't really matter though. You know what though? Instinct tells me CCP aren't complacent. If they were I would have been banned by now.

It was the lack of isk for replacement ships .

and the fact the NC sold all of their capitals that resulted

Most people have no idea just how big a cluster **** both alliences were when they came under attack because of this lack of funding of fleets for defence.

It was you that claimed that moon-goo = win. Not me.

NC and BoB had moongoo. They lost. And not because their leaders RMTd the war chest away. They lost because the troops lost faith in their leaders. And propaganda my friend, played a huge part in creating that situation. If EVEs large wars have proven anything, is that the age old importance of troop morale.

Propaganda. Just like the current campaign against evil botters and RMTers ruining EVE. Accusations flow from every major player against the others in this never ending information war.

I stay in high sec, play in my one man corp. Do my thing, they can all go **** themselves for all I care.

stuff

I, on the other hand, live in null. And beeing there, experiencing these things first hand, know what the hell I am talking about.

I think the leaders of the NC would like to have a word with you. Or for that matter the leaders of BoB before that. Look how much high-end moon goo the russians have had, historically. Yet they are here. NC and BoB are not.

For all those people who truly believe that alliances are involved in RMT.. now is the time to put up or shut up.

Regret to sell but have no more time for this game, so selling this awesome account with it's main char.

Some highlights :
114 mil sp + 5 mil still to be specced as you wish
almost 5 bill cash
with assets / loyalty points / research points worth a lot of isk
very good standings for missions (level 5 caldari navy)
positive security standings

Most ships level 5, perfect electronics and engineering, ...
Tried to put up some things in the screenie :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/characterq.jpg/

All this for 750 dollars
pm me for further questions or put it below,

it's really a very good char !

thanks,
kind regards,
F

Typically in law, the one making an accusation has to provide proof that it's true. For example, if I start saying you enjoy intimate relations with sheep, technically my accusation is merely unsubstantiated (you can't prove you never have), but it's quite rightly worthless as an assertion unless I can prove it. Otherwise, all I have is a smear campaign against someone I dislike, attempting to use rumour and insinuation and constantly (as we see in this thread) dodging away from posting this supposedly ubiquitous and indisputable evidence.

the problem of rampant accusations would go away if someone simply sued CCP for libel by allowing accusational posts that defame a player or groups character and reputation to remain on the boards.

not sure where iceland stands on the issue of personal libel, but as far as I know none of the accusers of corp wide RMT are members of the press, so Iceland's journalist protection laws don't apply

its a legal toughie, but CCP really should crack down on baseless public accusations all the same

If you had wanted a reasonable discussion you should have made clear distinction between

(a) single (rank and file) individuals in an alliance participating in such behavior (maybe being tolerated by leadership)

(b) the alliance leadership organizing such behavior on alliance level.


(a) is easy enough to prove (just buy ISK, supercapitals or accounts on any of a dozen forums dedicated to that purpose and see who the guy selling it to you is - it 's not morally bad as long as you only do it For Science).
e.g. here is a post I copied from some RMT forum

looking at the screenshot we see that this guy has a jumpclone in C-J6MT which means that he is/was either a member of Red Alliance (extremely likely), Atlas (maybe), IRC (very unlikely) or one of their allies.

Is this proof for the generalization that MEMBERS OF 0.0 ALLIANCES ENGAGE IN RMT?

(b) will be hard to prove without being a director in one of these alliances. Especially as leadership will always try to make it look like (a) to CCP.

Nice to see a pro-oppression voice.
Refreshing really...










What part of buy ISK online is not clear when you google it?
How utterly stupid can people be?

pro-oppression?
how do you figure?

the boards are moderated
Now if I can get a TOS warning and a lock because I posted a thread calling you an ignorant prick, why shouldn't I get one for calling (enter alliance you hate the most here) a pack of cheaters and criminals?

Because there is a very good chance its true

pro-oppression?
how do you figure?

the boards are moderated
Now if I can get a TOS warning and a lock because I posted a thread calling you an ignorant prick, why shouldn't I get one for calling (enter alliance you hate the most here) a pack of cheaters and criminals?

and I don't google buy isk online

Because there is a very good chance its true

If you don't understand the difference, then I don't really care to try and explain it to you. I mean I could call you an arrogant fool, so conceded that he can't see past the funky shaped nose on his face, but that would not be the same as debating something whose effects are clearly visible on a basic google search.



Also WOW is that way right?



These are the eve forums, and this is apparently what we do here. So yea, you're supporting pro-oppression and censorship. Nice... real nice. Especially since you will no doubt turn around and ***** about being censored should it suit you.

clearly visible on a basic google search.

ok, I'm calling your bluff
please show us this site that directly ties an ongoing instance of RMT to a particular alliance and or person
in an indisputable fashion

THIS THREAD IS FULL OF VILLAINY!

Oh, and I have the best Harvard lawyers on retainer you filthy sheep-shagging red-coats, so don't even think about suing!

(Also, I heard midget mafia is an rmt racket)

(and they wear ladies pantaloons)

(I assume you call them pantaloons)

(m8m8m8)

Not playing word games with you bra, go bait someone else with your failing rationalization. This thread is about whether or not it is over exaggerated. In google, you can see clearly how many sites there are... thus it is proof positive that plenty of folks in said alliances are doing it.



You are also supporting more forum censorship, which is equally as craptacular as far as "personal opinions" go.

Nice try baby, but still not playing



Go put words into some else's mouth.

Let's look at this logically. Someone is selling isk to Gold Buyers/Sellers. ISK Sellers are selling isk to players. Who in the game would have so much isk that it would be tempting, worthwhile, profitable, possible, plausible or irresistable? Who has that much isk? Chribba/ Entity, a few successful market guys, Somer.blink, EOH, or tech moon farmers. Who has the most tech moons?

Clearly NCdot and PL do not invest their tech profits into their alliance

I'm sorry
I guess I'm unaccustomed to dealing with someone who is both poor and bitter

oh and forget wow
OWS is that way

AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reilly Duvolle's STUPID IS STILL BURNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HALP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I play a game and manipulate the system so I make money off it as a side gig. Prove it, you can't.
I steal from a corp wallet, use it to buy Plex and sell those to alliance members on the side for $5 you can't prove it, neither can I. CCP can't prove it and they have better tools to monitor this than I do. They just don't have the man hours to dedicate to it.

I already said, I don't blame CCP for RMT but I'm not so stupid as to think it doesn't happen just because I can't "prove" it.

Personally I like the Chribba approach. He doesnt spew rumours and heresay acting as a useful idot / parrot for people with an agenda.

No, he provides proof.

In this case a contract spam bot in Jita, posting in local on average every 76 seconds for 7 days straight :)

IF you had actually read what I wrote, you would have found that we agree on this particular issue about moongoo. So the hurting you feel didnt come from me.

It took 30 seconds with Google to find many sites selling BPO's, ships, ISK etc. for RM

Someone has the ingame ISK to buy this stuff and is then selling for money. How did they get that much ISK. Botting? Tech moons? Some pretty serious isk has been "harvested" to supply these sites.

Either way, RMT does exist AND there is AMPLE PROOF of it.

What's the OP? An ostrich?

and apparently you are blind

did anyone here dispute the fact that RMT happens daily?
did the OP dispute it?

no, the point is just because it happens is a **** poor excuse to claim that entire alliances support and engage in it as a whole or at the executive level

its like saying all people of a certain race are criminals because some of them are actually criminals
and if you applied that logic you would find that every race on the planet are a pack of criminals

get it now?

Those mountains of hulks.. again go and fraps it.

I keep seeing people talking about these huge fleets of bots in null sec yet I have never seen anybody fraps it.

And my point asks WHERE that much ISK comes from? If it's NOT supported and endorsed by the large alliances (read 0.0) then where's the ISK - in the trillions - coming from?

No high-seccer can make that much ISK to support a trading RMT site.

And my point asks WHERE that much ISK comes from? If it's NOT supported and endorsed by the large alliances (read 0.0) then where's the ISK - in the trillions - coming from?

No high-seccer can make that much ISK to support a trading RMT site.

Incursions can make plenty of ISK.

And lvl4 mission bots can run all day (23 hours) in HS making more ISK than a rel player running 10/10s.

you might want to research how gold farming works before you embarrass yourself any more
http://www.popsci.com/files/imagecache/article_image_large/articles/gold-farming-china-wow7go-530.jpg

Lots of bullshit

Those mountains of hulks.. again go and fraps it.

I keep seeing people talking about these huge fleets of bots in null sec yet I have never seen anybody fraps it.

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not

Anyone who thinks RMT/botting is sec-specific is an idiot.

lol so now I'm a RMTer?

trollolololol

you saps are pathetic
just quit now, because things will never be the way you want them to be, so save yourself the aggravation and quit now

Now if CCP do indeed have these kinds of systems in place then either they are fully aware of who is involved in RMT and is simply either turning a blind eye or are themselves involved.

do you really think they log the history of who has transferred/taken what items from which jetcan (or secure container)?

just imagine the logfiles created by looting & salvaging one single lvl4.

Cause based on assumptions.. It will end well.

In order to actually root it out, you have to directly connect the target with "RMT site" which could be difficult.
You can assume it is so. But you will not win an cause on the assumptions.

Hey Morgs.

To rescure myself from my "embarrassment" about this all being about Chinese Gold Farmers, I did some research on a particularly large RMT site. Identified the "errors in anonymity" and did some work.

In 20 minutes:-

I have name of the business owner, business ID, PO Box, office address, phone number etc.
If the details are correct (and I'm doing cross-checking right now) I can tell you what his house looks like and what car he drives.

I can assure you he is not Chinese. The likelihood of this being a case of mistaken identity is diminishing in that it is an unusual name and no-one else has that name in the state he resides.

This might seem creepy (although this is all on the public record) but it proves a point.

It would take CCP 20 minutes to do the same and match his details to a CC# to nail him.


The problem is we would NOT be told he was nailed so we would NOT be able to associate him to a 0.0 alliance anyway.

After reading your responses on this thread - and others - I have yet to see anything from you that doesnt fall into the category "unsubstantiated claims".

Hot Air - thats what you are about buddy.

If what you said was true, then where does all the isk, ships, and other game items for sale on multiple RMT sales websites on the internet come from? Do you think the volumes that are available there come from sources other than the large organizations who have control over the necesary ingame resources to produce them?? Maybe you think the casual players in HiSec somehow magically produce them? Your logic fails. Logic dictates the source of this corruption.

Well, SOME of them have to be doing it. RMT sites are full of deadspace and officer modules.
Of course, they also have lots of faction items, so highsec carebears are just as guilty.

Don't try to use logic to convince a pig of anything. It won't accomplish anything but annoying the pig.

Let's look at this logically. Someone is selling isk to RMT Sites. RMT Sites are selling isk to players. Who in the game would have so much isk that it would be tempting, worthwhile, profitable, possible, plausible or irresistable? Who has that much isk? Chribba/ Entity, a few successful market guys, Somer.blink, EOH, or tech moon farmers. Who has the most tech moons? Who just launched a major campaign to grab even more tech moons?

You can also tell the botters when you look at Dotlan for # of npc's killed in the last 24 hours. Some systems have like 5-6,000 npc's killed every 24 hours. That's an awful lot of ratting 24/7. And who controls/ safeguards those systems?

Amusing reply... i'll take it!



On another note, LOL at these people now trying to change the subject to "Empire people do it too" after they lost the debate regarding RMT proliferation in EVE. Weak people... truly weak. It does not change what goes on in null all of the time, if for some reason empire folks also indulge in the EULA violations.


I used to play bumping games in an ICE field. I discovered that if it hit the orca with a Hurricane traveling at 6,000 m/s, said orca would impact all of the mack's surrounding it. After I did that they all just floated in space and sat there, the mining stopped and the orca was so far out from the belt that it just sat there. But... that is not proof they were empire bots!! No SIR!!

And my point asks WHERE that much ISK comes from? If it's NOT supported and endorsed by the large alliances (read 0.0) then where's the ISK - in the trillions - coming from?

No high-seccer can make that much ISK to support a trading RMT site.

RMT is like a virus. If you want to try and cut it out with a knife, feel free. I give you a week to live. Same for EVE. They can't bann away RMT. They need to immunize EVE. It won't happen over night.

Hmm, now that you mention it, this explains something.

I visit the EVE facebook site and when there I often get an Ad on the right for EVE ships. The prices are outrageous and I couldn't quite reason why.

It makes sense now. They get an order for an Archon, they don't own one. They are going to go buy it as soon as they get the order and then sell it to the dumb shmuck that didn't take 10 minutes to math off Plex prices.

LOL, even the RMT people can't be bothered to run Industrial in EVE.

Digital mafia is the best mafia? Are they going to like... Suicide gank the ships I never undock? Or like... find what country I live in and come to my house?


WTF are you talking about? LOL

I'm sorry, what?


Just because you like playing internet detective (don't get me wrong, it's fun!) are you seriously suggesting CCP should actively track people down to their real life places of work/residence, matching and tracing CC numbers, spying on what cars they own through Google Earth and god knows what else, just because they choose to sell some internet pixels?

Regardless of what the EULA says, RMTers commit no RL crime. I await someone to give a link stating the the opposite is true... Sure, CCP might not like RMT, but please don't forget that they don't have the power or indeed the mandate (from anyone) to do **** like this.


Nice post though! :)

Actually, in keeping with the constantly touted "risk vs. reward" principle of EVE, CCP should track them down... and execute them for crimes against the game community! Now THAT would be "Risk vs. Reward" !

Actually, in keeping with the constantly touted "risk vs. reward" principle of EVE, CCP should track them down... and execute them for crimes against the game community! Now THAT would be "Risk vs. Reward" !

Go to any hisec ice system and count the macks and take names, go back any time of day every day and you still see the same names. Gank a few and watch their pods do teh same routine till DT.

Count the hisec systems with ice, multiply that by teh average number of macks in them, probably about half are bots. Multiply that figure by the hourly mining yield of a mack, multiply that by 23, multiply that by the average cost of ice.

Now tell me that nullsec is where the RMT isk is coming from. Dont beleive me? Go to Outuni and ask a question in local, somethign inocuous that lots of people could answer and see how many do. Bump a few macks around, gank a few. Go and test it out.

Null sec is the easy scapegoat for most people who dont actually live there, hisec is botting heaven not nullsec.

Ah yes. the old "no you" retort. How refreshing.

Nice spin. Inaccurate but it did the job. You were able to remove all the valid points and condense it to something you could attack.

Gratz, you pass propaganda 101

Sure, CCP might not like RMT, but please don't forget that they don't have the power or indeed the mandate (from anyone) to do **** like this.

Actually, they do possess the power to do this. Anyone (in the US, at any rate) can use publicly available information to track down another person. It's not an illegal or even unethical thing to do, unless the information so obtained is used for illegal purposes, such as: harassment, identity theft, burglary, invasion of privacy (determining someone's name, address, phone number, place of residence and vehicle doesn't qualify), and so on.

I'd say they have every right, from both a legal and ethical standpoint, to follow an Internet breadcrumb trail, identify an RMTer, link them to their EVE account(s), and then terminate their service. They may already be doing this on occasion and we just don't know about it, but as others have pointed out, RMT is not a problem that can ever be eradicated.

So any accusations are based (IMO) on probabilities given the AMOUNT of ISK and BPO's available.

For all those people who truly believe that alliances are involved in RMT.. now is the time to put up or shut up.

In the event, they did neither. I think you have your answer now, OP.

there is not some big conspiracy involving CCP

He went to Russia along with his father and his friend Magn+¦s +Porsteinsson.

A report published in Denmark noted that the Committee on External Economic Relations in Saint Petersburg Mayor's office was responsible for foreigners. The committee's chairman was Vladimir Putin between 1991 and 1996.[2]

The Icelandic businessmen, together with Russian partners, founded bottling company Baltic Bottling Plant, which was sold to Pepsi. Next they founded a brewing company. -P-P-P "-ó-+-Ç-¦-+-¦-ï-¦ -¦-+-+ "-á-P-í-É" was registered in March 1995 and changed its name to Bravo OOO in February 1996 (address was also changed). It further changed its name to Bravo International OOO in August 1996 and Bravo International JSC in December 1997.[2] Founders of Bravo were six companies registered in Limassol, Cyprus - Bj+¦rg+¦lfsson was president of all of them.[2] Bravo Brewery became a success on the premium beer Botchkarov.

An article in The Guardian (2005) wondered where Bj+¦rg+¦lfsson's money comes from and noted that in the 1990s the Icelanders "were not only ploughing money into the country but doing it in the city regarded as the Russian mafia capital. That investment was being made in the drinks sector, seen by the mafia as the industry of choice."[3] Competitors in the Saint Petersburg brewing market faced problems. For instance, Ilya Weismann, deputy director of competing beverage company Baltic, was assassinated on January 10, 2000. Later Baltic director general Aslanbek Chochiev was also assassinated. One competing Saint Petersburg brewery burned to the ground.[2][3]

The company became the fastest growing brewery in Russia. Heineken bought the brewery for $400m in 2002.[2][4]

He returned to Iceland to gain interest in numerous ventures there. [such as a 30% stake in CCP]

Wrong again. RMT is not going anywhere... EVER. It's like torrent. The cause is lost! Nothing can stop this! You will all be slaves to your RMT lords!!!!

dude, the Russian connection is obvious.


Forgot about the reason why CCP showed up in that Illuminati thread on AboveTopSecret but you should check that out, too.

You only don't see the conspiracy because you don't want to see it.

...is more likely done by hoards of pilots in NPC corps in their hulks and macks mining and their BS in missions who work directly for the RMT Sellers and the maybe odd few hundred pilots acting on their accord.

And a quick look through at least one RMT site I dug through will find several Titans available at approx. US$1600 each (just one example).

Last I heard, this required a CSAA in nullsec and given the cook time, support of the alliance holding the CSAA. If this is not proof of 0.0 alliance/s being involved then I'd be eager to hear how not.

And a quick look through at least one RMT site I dug through will find several Titans available at approx. US$1600 each (just one example).

Last I heard, this required a CSAA in nullsec and given the cook time, support of the alliance holding the CSAA. If this is not proof of 0.0 alliance/s being involved then I'd be eager to hear how not. Really, it's a question of WHO and HOW MANY in 0.0 are involved, not WHETHER they are.

If I was the OP, I'd be asking how sales of vessels of this size don't attract SOME attention - at alliance level (unless leadership is involved) or even at CCP level.

You draw your own conclusions.

EDIT. Another thought. A highseccer, even a very successful one is going to make let's say 100m/hour. He's going to need to work 3 hours just to make $10 (assuming 300m isk for $10 is the going rate). Who would? If he runs multiple accounts, he also needs to make enough to pay for his plexes. A lot of work for very little return.

It's why I keep saying so much of the income MUST be coming from passive income streams in the billions, possibly trillions. Only one place and one way that happens.

Simple.. after many years of RMT companies botting the crap out of Eve, buying PLEX using stolen credit information, pretty sure isk is not a problem for them :)

So as another posted said, so long as they have the isk they can purchase a titan and then sell it..

simples

Part of it is the innate easiness to assign RL value to ISK. I mean, if you knew you were sitting on, say $40,000 worth of ISK, and all you needed to do was unload it....

The other part is simple psychology. the average Joe in EVE would go "hells yeah cash out". Next thought is "Well if *I*, being honorable Joe EVE would do it..then obvs those scumbags over in That Corp are doing it. They already jerks."

And these Titans are harboured where?

Of the nullsec alliances my charcaters have been involved in - which comprise several high profile well established PVP alliances - I have never seen anything that would indicate botting or RMT (these are not the same thing) taking place. To me, most of the claims spewed forth on the fourms seems to be 1) part of the never ending propaganda war or 2) set forth by people auto-repeating said propagandists.

I might be wrong ofc, but it seems likely that the both botting and RMT issues - while they almost certainly exist - are hugely inflated.

don't have any fraps but here's a screenshot from December 14th: http://i.imgur.com/j4CKk.jpg

camped the system in a cloaky for two days some time after an alliance mate took this image - first day there still were 2-3 Rorquals idling logged in inside POS shields at all times, second day some guy showed up and pulled down one of the two large staging POSes in system after which the Rorquals (in the other POS) stayed logged off, too.

Snatched some of the POS fuel he had left behind and made my way home, ignoring the mining ships in the system next door.

As you will probably point out I have no reason to suspect anything other than an extremely well coordinated fleet of legit players, so I didn't bother CCP with any sort of petition.

Interestingly, no one in this thread demanding proof of botting has bothered to reply to this quote, though they're more than willing to rip apart those with "he said, she said" type 'evidence'. Seriousley, if you're going to start a thread asking for proof, you best reply to all arguments and not just those that are easy to counter.

I concede that a screenshot of 30 pilots sitting patiently in Mackinaws in null sec POS isn't proof of botting alone. However, take a close look. I selected three random pilots (Sanfords Son, Gen Raptor, and Kira Maas) and did a quick little search on them.

First off, none of these pilots have ever posted a message to the EVE forum. That's fine, most players don't. Next, their Battleclinic. None of them have any kills, just losses. And finally, they all joined Bloodhound. [B] at the same date 8 months and 21 days ago (and they all joined their corp within 3.5-4 months ago).

Conclusive proof? No, but it's kind of hard to ignore.

GÇ£I think the trouble with me is lack of faith. I have no rational ground for going back on the arguments that convinced me of GodGÇÖs existence: but the irrational deadweight of my old skeptical habits, and the spirit of this age, and the cares of the day, steal away all my lively feeling of the truth, and often when I pray I wonder if I am not posting letters to a non-existent address. Mind you I donGÇÖt think soGÇöthe whole of my reasonable mind is convinced: but I often feel so. However, there is nothing to do but to peg away.GÇ¥

C.S. Lewis, on Doubt.