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Proasmae
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Posted - 2007.08.03 08:35:00 -
[1]
The base stats you choose when you first create your character play a huge role in skill training throughout your EVE life. And without the sort of knowledge that only an experience EVE player has about the training system, it's too easy to make a decision that can really end up hampering your progress a few months down the road.
At the same time, character creation should be fairly static, you shouldn't be able to constantly shift stats every time you want to take your character a new direction. So, I propose the following:
Let players move one point from one stat to another, once a month. Add in a non-trivial fee(based maybe on total number of SP), have the process give a -50% penalty to all stats for 24 hours, and give it a minor skill requirement. Call it something like Neuromorphic Biology, Rank 3 skill, reqs Science at IV/V and maybe Biology or Infomorph Psychology as a secondary req at III/IV. Level I opens up the procedure, which can only be performed in stations with medical facilities, and the skill provides a 3% or 5% decrease in the time between shifts.
I think this gives a good balance between making stat allocations set in stone, and having them be too fluid. It lets newer eve characters who created without the sort of deep knowledge of the game necessary to make an optimal allocation feel they aren't playing with a broken character, but it prevents everyone from switching their stats over to whatever high-rank skill they're changing.
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heheheh
Singularity.
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.08.03 08:38:00 -
[2]
nah bad idea
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Trypho
Minmatar
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 08:48:00 -
[3]
1) Just admit that you chose a bad career, and don`t make us want it because of that 
2) Generally speaking everything in EVE makes some sort of sense (think about what happens when you get podded with the cloning etc.). Something like this cannot be put into a story explaining why it works like this in New Eden.
3) "If it aint broken, don`t fix it".
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.03 08:50:00 -
[4]
Dungeon Runners recently introduced a feature where you could respec your character. At first I thought it was lame, but now I like it. Its like, today I'm gonna be a ranger. Tommorrow I'm gonna be a fighter. It makes the game more interesting.
With Eve it would allow people to change their professions more easily. Which might prevent boredom and keep them playing the a bit longer.
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Gojyu
Gallente
Ever Flow
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.03 08:52:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
Generally speaking everything in EVE makes some sort of sense (think about what happens when you get podded with the cloning etc.). Something like this cannot be put into a story explaining why it works like this in New Eden.
Jovian genetic manipulation, there's even a skillbook already in the game for it. But I agree, there's no real reason to have it- a point in one skill and two points in another isn't going to break your character
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Onnawa
Minmatar
Alcohol Fueled Brutality
X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.08.03 09:02:00 -
[6]
Am I the only person here who's heard of Learning Skills and implants? Just a thought.
Seriously. No one needs this ability. Even the worst roll-up can be balanced with learning and implants. Just because you want to migrate all your mem and intel into perception and will to get into a capship faster, don't come crying to us.
Character creation leaves even the most unbalanced roll-ups more balanced than ever. If those of us that started long before the new "Rev Character on a Silver Platter" creation system learned to cope, everyone else can, too.
_____________________________________
I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania. |
Trypho
Minmatar
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:54:00 -
[7]
My main has alot of "unneeded" skills aswell, but I just train up whats the most usefull for me at the very moment and thats it. Maximizing learning-skills makes up for alot, and I have an alt which trains for other stuff.
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Kaaii
Caldari
Equilibrium LLC
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:59:00 -
[8]
they have this already, its called training...
"Id rather fall beside 10 Lions, than stand with 1000 sheep.."
Trading 101
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.08.03 17:20:00 -
[9]
Your attributes are not as important in EVE as they are in other games. You gain no more shield HP or armor HP from having X stat, you don't fire any faster for having more Y than Z, etc.
If you are freting your attribute spread, just plugin some +4's and deal like everyone else, really.
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Trojanman190
Caldari
Murder-Death-Kill
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.03 17:44:00 -
[10]
I really see what this guy is saying.
Eve is complicated, people don't know wtf is going on when they start the game. A noob reads about industry and how cool our market is and gets all memory and intelligence and *gasp* charisma. 3 Months later he realizes how boring his eve life is because it takes him forever to train for combat, his new found passion. He should just re roll and waste all his time? Thats a major bummer. I'm not saying this absolutely needs a change, but I do see his frustration.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Sanctuary
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Posted - 2007.08.03 17:51:00 -
[11]
Not a bad idea. The speed should be something like 1 per week, not month. But I like it. With planning you could optimize some of your skill training in certain directions, then migrate to another set of stats to go in a different one.
It would open up more options, and more options/flexibility is good.
Another optino to consider would be tying this into jumpclones. Add a step to creating a jumpclone where you can tweak its stats. Make the number of adjustments you can make dependent on Informorph Psychology (or only make it possible at Infomorph Psych 5).
Could be interesting. Not sure if CCP would want to do it, there are a lot of potential ramifications to a system like that.
SEARCh- we find sites for you! |
Angellyne
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Posted - 2007.08.03 17:53:00 -
[12]
Not a bad idea. Not really needed, like some people have said, but it wouldn't hurt anything either and most people would probably use & appreciate it.
I would say rather than once a month, it should be a one-time chance to rearrange your attributes (not skills). Huge ISK cost, maybe require high faction standing ... anyway it shouldn't be easy.
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oniplE
NED-Clan
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.08.03 17:56:00 -
[13]
Edited by: oniplE on 03/08/2007 17:56:59
not needed? HA! Try a 16 perception character, with +4 implant and advanced learning to 4. (Yes, i can train it to 5, it will will just take a couple years to be efficient)
A one time attributes rearrangement would be very appreciated.
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Sanctuary
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:07:00 -
[14]
You know, I think there's actually a way this could work- you can adjust your stats, but you have to use training time to do it.
You can allocate your training to it, but you can't train while doing it.
Difficulty could be determined by stat being swappped and relative values of the stats. Moving a point between related stats (int/mem, perc/will) would be the equivalent of a Rank 4 skill, moving them between unrelated stats- such as moving a point of Cha to Will- would be a Rank 8 skill. The level being "trained" would be determined by the difference between the stats-
For example, using the above- moving a point of Int to Mem when Int is 12 and Mem is 14 would be like training a Rank 4 Skill to Level 4 (after completion, mem is 15, int is 11). But moving a point of Cha to Will when Cha is 11 and Will is 14 would be like training a Rank 8 skill to 5.
The basic concept would be that you train for these as any other skill, and the number of "SP" required is based on the stat swap.
Then you could make sure the tradeoff was worth it- you'd only see people migrating their stats for real career changes like someone wanting to move from industry to PVP, because they'd have a good reason to spend the time migrating stats. It'd be an investment in the long-term growth of a character, but would be significant enough of a timesink that it wouldn't be worthwhile to just pogo your stats about to optimize training for piddly skills.
SEARCh- we find sites for you! |
Raimo
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:58:00 -
[15]
I'd very much like this. I only recently got back in to the game after shortly trying it out a few years back... And made the mistake of continuing with my old char.
Now when I've invested a little more time and realized what I'd like differently, I *Really* don't feel like starting over again as I have a lot of the basic stuff covered already on this one, but my "advanced" future training is probably hindered. Sheesh.
Also, Comments about implants and training skills are kinda moot as any sensible player gets them anyway...
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SonOTassadar
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:12:00 -
[16]
I very much wish CCP would have offered all of us older players a chance to redistribute our attributes. On top of that, I also think you should have the option to redistribute at 5 or 10 million SP, which is about the time you've figured out wtf you're doing.
-----
Griffin -- 100,000 ISK
ECM - Multispectral Jammer Is -- 20,000 ISK
Standard Missile Launcher Is -- 10,000 ISK
War target sobbing over losing a fight in his T2 fitted Battleship -- priceless |
Alfred Spangler
Cskillzone
DAMAGE INC...
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Posted - 2007.08.03 19:22:00 -
[17]
I think that is a must have feature ... as I am a rookie, I completely screwed up my attributes (at least I did not spend points on 'charisma').
Now that I am 3 month old I begin to feel the disadvantages.
CCP, please make reattributing possible.
kthxbye
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Clean
Acceptable Losses
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Posted - 2007.08.03 22:15:00 -
[18]
Respec is lame and is just a step to far, and laos respec do not realy work in eve cuz ur not limited to skill trees like ranger or cook. So the skillz u gain at start are realy not that important.
BUT, i have to admit the some kinda attribute change that can swtich one point to another atttribute once in a month should be implemented.
When i started the end of 2004 we had only the option for one carrier that sets all ur attributes at once and i had choosen it cuz its sounded like the char i wanted to be
"Spaceship Commander". However this carrier is not supporting skilling for Spaceships nor Leadership skillz !!
The attributes are totaly scruwed with like 7-8 at everything but Willpower at 20 from the start !
I mean come on thats a waste of hole 10 points for forever
Now i have my stats with implants on an averrage of 16-18 but Willpower at 29 not even maxed out there cuz its useless, while other started a year after me in RMR got 20+ on all ballanced 
Plz CCP think about a way of changing attributs over a longer time 6 month for 6 points to change or such so it wont be abused but can bring depth into the game and also help us
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.03 22:22:00 -
[19]
They need to allow us to have gender correction surgery in game before they give us re-spec of attributes to be honest.
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Grismar.net |
Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.08.03 22:37:00 -
[20]
DNA mutators perhaps... not that this hasn't been mentioned before.
Here, here, here, here, and here.
Sadly we've had a related answer on the subject.
Originally by: CCP kieron
To do so would require a major re-write of the base character code and have an impact on the baseline item of EVE, the character. The trickle down impact would be huge, changing the character stat line would impact skill bonuses, training times, and foster more powergaming as some players would simply change race based on the popular 'template of the week'. It would also be difficult to explain from a RP viewpoint.
As with our stance against offering a name change service, I doubt a service of this nature would be offered.
That said character regret is an account killer. There are a lot of folks out there who thought that charisma might be important, or that int and mem might be of almost equal importance to per and will... hell I balanced my atrribs out almost evenly and I'd be very happy to migrate quite a few into per and will since the VAST majority of total skills are based off of these two attributes.
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JamnOne
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.08.03 22:44:00 -
[21]
I kind of like the idea of changing attributes. I think though it should be done within the first 3 months. By then you should know what you want to do.
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Ed Anger
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Posted - 2007.08.03 23:49:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Trypho
1) Just admit that you chose a bad career, and don`t make us want it because of that
2) Generally speaking everything in EVE makes some sort of sense (think about what happens when you get podded with the cloning etc.). Something like this cannot be put into a story explaining why it works like this in New Eden.
3) "If it aint broken, don`t fix it".
it's funny how many people freak over this idea. how would it affect you, really, if people could change one attribute point a month? it could easily be "explained" in the context of the game, just like having jump clones, one more factor of advanced civilizations, the ability to change your body.
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Lord XSiV
Amarr
Digital Research - Omega Protocol
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Posted - 2007.08.04 02:38:00 -
[23]
Why not just have a charge for it? Like 20 bucks, the same to change your portrait? I am all for generating revenue off the playerbase for useful things for gameplay. We all know the other attempts (eve tv, eve voice) aren't doing too well. How about implementing something that would be useful? This would even help out with the amarr balance issue because at least then the learning time for another race isn't so bad....
Don't whine if you are poor. Take the time you would use to post a response complaining that it isn't fair and go find a job. There are tons of them out there.
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Raimo
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Posted - 2007.08.04 11:06:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Raimo on 04/08/2007 11:06:10
I would most definitely pay ISK or EUR for this... Or devote skill training time to it, whatever. I'd also like it even if it was just an one-time possibility per character.
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2007.08.04 11:11:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Banana Torres
Dungeon Runners recently introduced a feature where you could respec your character. At first I thought it was lame, but now I like it. Its like, today I'm gonna be a ranger. Tommorrow I'm gonna be a fighter. It makes the game more interesting.
With Eve it would allow people to change their professions more easily. Which might prevent boredom and keep them playing the a bit longer.
EVE is not Dungeon runners. The solution is called learning skills, and people should stop whining and face the consequences of their own choices.
Caldari and proud |
FarScape III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2007.08.04 11:32:00 -
[26]
You can train ALL the skills, Any skills you chose you WILL need very soon anyways TRUST me.
I hate to say this but new player THINK there are classes by the way it looks in the begining but there are NOT any one class, in not much time you can be doing ANYthing in EVE, TRUST me.
you will have mining skills AND PvP skills and can sell stuff for a profit etc.. whatever, if you made the wrong decisions and you are having a problem with it I think you must be in your 1st few days of playing.
A Minmater City... Cool!
My Skills |
FarScape III
Journey On Squad
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Posted - 2007.08.04 11:34:00 -
[27]
This game is NOT like other were you will ONLY ever able to learn one set of power or whatever, in EVE everyone can learn every skill there is. Understand?
A Minmater City... Cool!
My Skills |
Malcanis
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 12:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Trojanman190
I really see what this guy is saying.
Eve is complicated, people don't know wtf is going on when they start the game. A noob reads about industry and how cool our market is and gets all memory and intelligence and *gasp* charisma. 3 Months later he realizes how boring his eve life is because it takes him forever to train for combat, his new found passion. He should just re roll and waste all his time? Thats a major bummer. I'm not saying this absolutely needs a change, but I do see his frustration.
That hyperindustrial should have plenty of ISK; he can buy the combat toon if his choice...
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
wappy
Gallente
NEXUS CLOUD
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.08.04 12:07:00 -
[29]
From day 1 in the game i chose very balanced attributes with a base of 8 in each one and 7 will. this allows me to train nearly all the skills at the same rate. i have never regretted it in my 3 year carreer
Wappy
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Brazero
Amarr
Noble House
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Posted - 2007.08.04 12:21:00 -
[30]
Originally by: wappy
From day 1 in the game i chose very balanced attributes with a base of 8 in each one and 7 will. this allows me to train nearly all the skills at the same rate. i have never regretted it in my 3 year carreer
Wappy
You made the right choise, I did the same with an alt, and he trains quite nicely in all skills. I picked memory for the 7 skill tho.
25 across the board works just fine 
Originally by: Rodj Blake
CCP are planning to give Amarrians some "oomph"
Unfortunately, "oomph" is the sound one makes when kicked repeatedly in the ribs.
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Terra Alnilam
Umbra Congregatio
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.04 12:35:00 -
[31]
Man oh man do I wish they would implement this.
See, I am part of the few who happened to think that charisma was a useful attribute.
As I cry myself to sleep over unecessarily long training times for the majority of my skill training programme, I constantly beat myself up over just how stupid it was to invest in so much charisma over the other attributes.
Please, spare me the "charisma has its uses" dribble. Trading has limited uses. As does leadership. Even worse is the reduced training time you get with the minimal amount of agent-related skills. The majority of this game's skills features skills NOT enhanced by charisma.
I rolled an altnerate toon SIMPLY because I was tired of having attributes that favored charisma over most of the other attributes.
This alt, created three months after me, has surpassed my skillpoint total by over 1 million and that egde is rising ever so quickly. Both of them have similar skill sets, albeit in different aspects. For example, I have focused more points into gunnery whereas my sexier alt has focused more into missiles.
The Learning are a nice way of sayinng "aw, it won't be so bad"... but a character/race/bloodline specific modification option would be nice, considering that players who made characters before RevI didn't easily and readily posses the information they are armed with now inside the character selection screen.
Originally by: Gus Preston
my boner just broke my zipper 
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 12:36:00 -
[32]
Take the time to train a learning skill one step further if you really care. I have almost all my learnings at level 4, but because I had set my base perception so low, I took the time to train it to level 5. When I buy implants, I always buy a slightly higher perception implant than all the other implants. I do not regret any of these decisions.
What I do regret is being an Achura Male. Gender reassignment surgery or Michael Jackson race changing please? 
---
Grismar.net |
Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2007.08.04 12:45:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Malcanis
That hyperindustrial should have plenty of ISK; he can buy the combat toon if his choice...
This is EVE its not called toon here go back to wow
Caldari and proud |
Teinyhr
Minmatar
United Systems Navy
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Posted - 2007.08.04 12:53:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Teinyhr on 04/08/2007 12:53:51
Originally by: Onnawa
Even the worst roll-up can be balanced with learning and implants.
Sorry but I beg to differ. I can just and just get my willpower to 19 with FULL WP learning skills (yeah the advanced too) AND a +4 implant. So yeah it's quite a bummer since a lot of people seem to have their attribs well over 20 when they just learn the advanced skills.
-------------------
Originally by: Smagd
Besides, specialization is for insects.
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Mooogie
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Posted - 2007.08.04 12:55:00 -
[35]
Originally by: cal nereus
What I do regret is being an Achura Male. Gender reassignment surgery or Michael Jackson race changing please?
Hey, that's what you get for having what is possibly the best attribute-to-skill ration in the game.
Achura males are downright goofy looking and easily likened to the word fugly, even with the 'shades, but achura females aren't that much better in the aesthitics department.
I'll be honest. When I was considering an alt to take over my poorly created main, I was looking at an Achura Stargazer as my #1 pick. The fact that I could do something along the lines of 10/10/10/8/3 was so incredibly attractive. But I just... could... not... make... a ... face ... that... excuse me...
Okay, I am back. Had to take a trip to the restroom due to flashbacks from that particular character creation episode.
Anyway, I couldn't make a face that I could stomach. No matter how much I tried (I didn't bother with achura males... their faces are downright comical), I just couldn't deal with the fact that I'd be flying around with a charcter with a but-her-face... when all I'd see was that very same face.
So I made a Sebiestor with similar stats as that of an Achura, but with slightly more balance. I do sometimes wonder just how much more advanced my paper-bag headed Achura would be efficient at skill training, but... the way I just could not change the fugliness factor of that face no matter what still gives me chills to this day.
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Minmatar
FW Inc
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Posted - 2007.08.04 13:53:00 -
[36]
IMO no dont change it. None of the ideas presented are good ones. Like real life yo have to skill into certain things and if mommy and daddy didnt give you the head start, or if you slacked in school well your stuck too in life. Works the same way here.
Ive always rolled an even toon as best as I could. I learned and figured on a few things and not on others. Im happy with a very even toon. Gives good learning times no matter what CCP decides to toss out.
So just say no to toon rerolling or changing. Sure itd be handy but then youd get someone simply making a 2 attribute heavy character, training EVERYTHING in those two up, and then swapping out the skill tree for the other two and having at it again. Thereby super speeding everything to the top of the skill trees. If anything CCP needs to create a third tier for learning skills or better implants, or even skill section specific implants. Like a gunnery training implant, missile training implant. Seed them rare or NPC sell them for an expensive isk sink. I think thatd be the only way is to do that.
If your a new toon, under a year, you have nothign to complain about. Theres a TON of things you can do in Eve with that skill set. Find something you like and get to it, so it takes you longer. Think of those whove been playing with a botched roll for years and STILL have fun. Guess they must be superhuman, cuz they do it and you whine.
NO REMORSE. NO REGRET, PLAY ON!!
***********************************************
Where do we go from here? When theres no up and no down anymore...onward....ever onward into the vastnes of chaos till you find the light within. |
Benco97
Gallente
Nova Inc.
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.08.04 14:21:00 -
[37]
Many years ago when the universe was young and the servers just opening their eyes for the first time to the cold harsh light of life I made this character.
His stats are all over the place and pretty poor.
I don't mind though... because all it affects is the speed at which things train and as I don't consider EVE to be a race against eachother then why the fudge should I care?
You're all getting soft with your fancy "learning" skills and then the bloody Advanced learning skills and the implants and the boosters, have you seen how many SP people start with these days? it's insane.
If things are going to be switched about then make it fair for everyone, I want someone to calculate how many extra SP i'd have if there were learning skills, implants and boosters right from the start and I want those extra SP added to my character in whatever skills I choose, thanks.
"MY GOD KEEP THIS AWAY FROM BENCO97!!!!!" - Constantine Arcanum |
Zhett Haukes
Insult to Injury
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Posted - 2007.08.04 14:47:00 -
[38]
personally I would like this, even if it were a one-time per account change.
When I was playing on the trial before I started this character some "genius" told me to max my intelligent, even if I wanted to be a combat character, as it would help me train my learning skills quicker. My base stats are now 13 int and 8 in everything else except charisma. I know that isn't that bad - but I would kill for a few extra points in Perception/Willpower. Implants help somewhat, but there is always that niggle in the back of your mind about the wasted oppurtunity.
On the plus side, I do train support skills fast!
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Broken Star
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.04 14:55:00 -
[39]
I don't know, not sure about changing base stats, however I was thinking about attribute modification tanks....
So you dock up, get out of your ship, de-pod and in a station, like ones that offer medi-bays you have a service that offers 'stat boosting' this service would cost a lot of money, not like as much as implants but still say 100k isk an hour, you confirm the amount of time you want in the tank, and accept.
This gives you a learning bonus, like the learning skill but say x0.65 to all stats, stat tanks can only be used while the player is offline, and you could even have a skill for using them.
Maybe they are only offered to people with good standings like jump clones, the idea is to decrease the amount of time it takes to complete a skill, once your learning skills are high and you have a good head of implants.
I don't know just an idea. 
---
I'm an alt, I admit it. |
DarkStar251
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Posted - 2007.08.04 15:00:00 -
[40]
Meh...
My main (this chr) was created on the 14th May 2003, about 8 days after retail release.
I was in the beta, but despite downloading the 500mb client 5 or 6 times (and I was on dial up back then) it was corrupt evey time.
Back then, there was nobody to give me advice, and the game manual was very vague. Looking at the stats I came to the decision that "Willpower" couldn't be much use commanding a spaceship, I couldn't see the enemy dropping dead just because I *Really Really* wanted them to.
Hence, with maxxed learnings, and a +4 implant, I have 18 Willpower.
On the otherhand, I figured Charisma would let me command fleets and let me buy things cheaply.
Hence, with 5/4 learnings and a +4 implant, I have 25 Charisma, which is my highest stat.
My chr is now 4 years old and has 50m SP, which is alot, but is rather low given my age. I'm too far in to contemplate starting over.
You'd think then, that I would be one of the first to support this idea, as it would allow me to drop quite a number of Charisma points (Not only did I get points from my Ancestry, but I actually allocated 2 or 3 points from the 5 you get to distribute to charisma).
However, I'm against this idea.
New chrs should learn enough in their first couple of weeks to recreate their chrs if they gimp themselves too much. Old people like me don't really need a boost - our skillpoints do that for us.
Of course, if EVE goes on for another 8 years, alot of people will have caught up with me on SP, then I will be sad :(
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Xtreem
Gallente
Scientific Creative Underworld Mafia
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Posted - 2007.08.04 15:01:00 -
[41]
well i based my stats on the original paper manual, that came in the box, so mine are screwed, but iv stuck with them :)
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Malcanis
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 15:09:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: Malcanis
That hyperindustrial should have plenty of ISK; he can buy the combat toon if his choice...
This is EVE its not called toon here go back to wow
My word, you told me to go back to WoW. Oh, you must be so hard-core and L33t. I am such teh Nublar compared to you! You may have all my stuff. You can tell by the way I consistently argue for consensual only PvP
Played WoW once, didn't like it. Bored to tears in fact.
And hey, I don't really like 'toon' either, but since it's the de facto term used by the majority, I use it.
Now that's out of the way, would you care to contribute to the discussion?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 15:10:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Terra Alnilam
Man oh man do I wish they would implement this.
See, I am part of the few who happened to think that charisma was a useful attribute.
As I cry myself to sleep over unecessarily long training times for the majority of my skill training programme, I constantly beat myself up over just how stupid it was to invest in so much charisma over the other attributes.
Please, spare me the "charisma has its uses" dribble. Trading has limited uses. As does leadership. Even worse is the reduced training time you get with the minimal amount of agent-related skills. The majority of this game's skills features skills NOT enhanced by charisma.
I rolled an altnerate toon SIMPLY because I was tired of having attributes that favored charisma over most of the other attributes.
This alt, created three months after me, has surpassed my skillpoint total by over 1 million and that egde is rising ever so quickly. Both of them have similar skill sets, albeit in different aspects. For example, I have focused more points into gunnery whereas my sexier alt has focused more into missiles.
The Learning are a nice way of sayinng "aw, it won't be so bad"... but a character/race/bloodline specific modification option would be nice, considering that players who made characters before RevI didn't easily and readily posses the information they are armed with now inside the character selection screen.
Choices -> consequences.
Or do you let people go if they say they jumped in to the system by mistake...?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Hexman
The Ankou
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.08.04 18:32:00 -
[44]
Nah
But the game should give you a little more guidance when creating your character. I mean, all the role-playing type stuff sounds real nice, but new players don't have a way of how stats really affect their lifestyle.
So when you're creating a character, things like "having this attribute really high will help you develop your character faster in x,y direction" or something like that.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 18:41:00 -
[45]
There should be no consequences for our actions and choices. And everyone else should be responsible for protecting and shielding me. And I should be able to do whatever I want. I want candy. Let me do candy! 
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Grismar.net |
Anubis Xian
Vertigo One
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
|
Posted - 2007.08.04 18:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Onnawa
Am I the only person here who's heard of Learning Skills and implants? Just a thought.
Too be fair, 9 attribute points can make a world of difference if its not in the right place.
My base attributes are 6/11/5/11/6, which is about as perfect as they get for a 100% combat char.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.08.04 19:38:00 -
[47]
If we can't have migration of attributes can we have some balance in their usage.
For example a large set of combat skills, for example, crew. With charisma as primary.
This might be a big kick in the nadgers to all the low charisma characters who "knew" not to bother wasting points on charisma but there are consequences to their choices, yes? 
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Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 19:50:00 -
[48]
CCP's business plan counts on players quitting after 7 months, so by the time you realize you've really screwed yourself over, you're supposed to move on to another game anyway.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.04 19:53:00 -
[49]
Actually, CCP did say they were planning on adding more stuff that attributes would effect, and theoretically that would mean balancing charisma so it becomes more important. I think. Don't quote me on that.
---
Grismar.net |
Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.08.05 00:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: cal nereus
Actually, CCP did say they were planning on adding more stuff that attributes would effect, and theoretically that would mean balancing charisma so it becomes more important. I think. Don't quote me on that.
That would be excellent... and apologies for quoting.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.08.05 01:15:00 -
[51]
Silly me, but these days I always expect to see either a.) an Achura char (powergamer) or b.) an Intaki (someone with an affectation for manga/anime, the obvious '****** look', who made a poor choice. Perhaps just lack of information..) opening a 'change attributes' thread.
While I can muster a small bit of sympathy for the latter.. is there even a way to gimp an Achura?
I mean, come on..
_________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well.. - |
Laura Steel
Minmatar
Independent Interspace Industiers
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Posted - 2007.08.05 01:28:00 -
[52]
From lowest to highest: per. will. char. int. mem.
With perception starting at 4 (just wtf was I thinking?). Anyway I dont regret it, the speed at which I learn the learning skills helps balance it out(a bit).
I also have no particular desire to rush into a capital ship(or a battleship for that matter). But I do plan to work on my Battlecruiser <3, Charisma helps a bunch with all the leadership skills I`m doing, and I find the Social skills nice too as I get income from missions.
Would it break my heart if this was put into the game? Nope, but I dont plan on spending money or training time to do it, plus I wanna see what impacts they add for having certain attributes first
----
Darn exclamation mark! I have brown hair, green eyes and a nice tan :) |
Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp
Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.08.05 12:55:00 -
[53]
You can get pretty much every int, cha, and mem, skill you will ever need in under a year. That is maxed shields, armor and capacitor skils, maxed social, enough in trade and industry to only be losing around 0.5% on each sale enough leadership for a carrier, etc.
After that almost every skill you will train for the rest of your in-game life will have perception or willpower as primary and in most cases secondary as well (the two categories with other secondaries, drones and propulsion don't add up to even a 1/4 of the weaponry and spaceship command skills.)
In fact if you set to it you can get trade and social maxed and leadership to the highest you will ever need it, unless running a corp, in a few months... never having to use the attribute again.
I know, harsh world etc... but I've seen people quit after spending a full year in-game because they have trained up everything they need in charisma, mem, and int and now face training everything else with extremely low perception and willpower.
Some people actually have more than 10 points in charisma... that now do nothing.
And the first thing I see many people get new character to do when joining a corp is read off their stats. If they have anything over 8 for int, mem or cha they advise them to re-make their char before they invested too much in it.
My base stats are all 8's and a 7. This issue is hardly ruining my game. But for a lot of people it is and it would make the rest of us much happier without negatively impacting anyone else.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.05 13:34:00 -
[54]
Edited by: cal nereus on 05/08/2007 13:35:22
There's theoretically no limit to the perception-willpower skills you can train. Often if someone has nothing in particular they feel like training anymore, they just turn on some random perception-willpower skill that might help later. If they're of the PvPin ilk anyways. I think.
I created an Achura character with high intelligence and high memory, but low willpower and the base 3 charisma. I was initially planning on being an industrialist with a penchant for PvP, but now my desire has switched, and I want to be a PvPer with a background in industry for support. Thus, I need perception-willpower more than ever. Ironically though, taking a look at the skills I'll be training over the course of the next year, most of them still require intelligence as primary. And willpower is only used in less than half, most of which it is only secondary. So, funnily enough, my industrial character is just fine for PvP training too.
I have no regrets where attributes are concerned. My only regret is that I'm ugly. And even if I could stomach paying ten dollars to change my portrait, I'd still only be able to make my ugly character slightly less ugly. 
---
Grismar.net |
Astro Teller
Milf Riders
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 13:41:00 -
[55]
woot woot i have good stats you lose
Astro Teller
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2007.08.05 15:11:00 -
[56]
I don't like the idea. When i first came here i knew no one who played EvE. I used my seven days at free trial to ask questions in nub-corp to get an idea of how to create my character. Still i managed to screw up and ad to charisma, making it 7 and my perception at 6. The learning area that i got most SP in (spaceship command) is also the one that the least suits my attributes. So what? Training takes a little longer but it really is not the end of the world.
I cant understand the sandboxkiddy-attitude that you should be able to rectify all your mistakes. One thing i like with this game is that bad choices leads to bad consequences. Cause the flip side is that is pays to plan careful and to be circumspect about what direction you choose to go. I never even considered to play Wow when they advertised that their idea for the game was that mishaps would not necessarily lead to any hampering consequences. "You die you simply go back to...blah blah"
I do regret some of my attribute choices, yet, i don't want the opportunity to change it. I like the dark, harsh EvE world where pain is lurking around every corner. If EvE start to grow soft i will lose interest fast.
"Oh, so you trained for mining but you rather want to be a ceptor pilot? Of course, no problemo. We are replacing your SP as we speak."
I mean, that would be alright in a kids game but not in EvE. In my very humble opinion 
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Anubis Xian
Vertigo One
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 16:03:00 -
[57]
Khanid get the best PvPer stats.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
|
Posted - 2007.08.06 09:20:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: Malcanis
That hyperindustrial should have plenty of ISK; he can buy the combat toon if his choice...
This is EVE its not called toon here go back to wow
My word, you told me to go back to WoW. Oh, you must be so hard-core and L33t. I am such teh Nublar compared to you! You may have all my stuff. You can tell by the way I consistently argue for consensual only PvP
Played WoW once, didn't like it. Bored to tears in fact.
And hey, I don't really like 'toon' either, but since it's the de facto term used by the majority, I use it.
Now that's out of the way, would you care to contribute to the discussion?
You are correct, I am very l33t and you are teh n00b.
Caldari and proud |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Minmatar
FW Inc
|
Posted - 2007.08.06 11:07:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 05/08/2007 01:30:23
Silly me, but these days I always expect to see either a.) an Achura char (supposedly powergamer) or b.) an Intaki (someone with an affectation for manga/anime, the obvious 'skinny drug addict look' (think about Kurt Cobain), who made a poor choice. Or perhaps just lack of information..) opening a 'change attributes' thread.
While I can muster a small bit of sympathy for the latter.. is there even a way to gimp an Achura?
I mean, come on..
Oh and yes: Choices -> Consequences
Otherwise stop all that 'EVE is a harsh place..' talk.
@Mooogie: I totally agree. Achura (males) are so fugly, I could never create one without regretting it later. And the females.. well they kinda don't fit the Charisma value of 3, plus they look totally generic and like all the other faceless achura chars out there.
Before anyone asks - yes I don't like the Achura bloodline. Because it's broken. It has nothing to do with the person behind the char. Ah well, apart from my lack of sympathy for people who value stats over looks, but meh..
Tbh other than some of the female faces all the faces have turned ugly to me and Id never create a female character seeing as Im a guy. Just think thats pretty lame.
I dont create a character because they look good to me, I could care less about the looks of characters, or ships. What I do care about is stats and how they reflect my ability to play the game. So creating something that looks fugly but plays well is something Id do in a heartbeat.
So Im completely on the other side of the fence. Besides with the generic amount of faces and the backgrounds in this game everyone looks like everyone else in the end, the only difference is your name really. So enjoy bringing your aesthetic viewpoints into an area so aesthetically narrow its laughable that you would bother looking at it that way. Nevermind the fact that its not "real" at the end of the day anyways.
Hmmm...maybe I should post this with my achura alt so you have to stare at the fugly avatar a bit more. LMFAO
***********************************************
Where do we go from here? When theres no up and no down anymore...onward....ever onward into the vastnes of chaos till you find the light within. |
Geli Tetro
Vanquish Inc
|
Posted - 2007.08.06 12:33:00 -
[60]
I would pay big to move 3 points from both memory and charisma to Perception and willpower.
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H.
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
|
Posted - 2007.08.06 12:46:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Onnawa
Am I the only person here who's heard of Learning Skills and implants? Just a thought.
am I the only person who's heard that x + learning skill + implant beats y + learning skill + implant for all values of x higher than y?
In other words: Would you rather have 25 points with learning and implants than 20 with the same learning skills and same implants?
God, the argumentation on these forums and this thread being one of the "highlights" again ... makes you wonder at times why some posts don't instantly dissolve into a puff of logic smoke 
--
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H.
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
|
Posted - 2007.08.06 12:46:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Onnawa
Am I the only person here who's heard of Learning Skills and implants? Just a thought.
am I the only person who's heard that x + learning skill + implant beats y + learning skill + implant for all values of x higher than y?
In other words: Would you rather have 25 points with learning and implants than 20 with the same learning skills and same implants?
God, the argumentation on these forums and this thread being one of the "highlights" again ... makes you wonder at times why some posts don't instantly dissolve into a puff of logic smoke
--
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Zak Kingsman
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
|
Posted - 2007.08.06 13:03:00 -
[63]
when I created this character there was no information on what attributes cover what skills. I am a high charisma(base) and willpower character. I have a 20 in willpower and 17s in everything else w/ advanced learning skills at 4 except for charisma. Advanced learning skills weren't even in the game and implants were ungodly expensive when I started. I've taken a few breaks from the game where I didn't keep up my training, but I've got probably 2 years of solid training time. The alt I cherry picked stats for and made in January has about a 1/3d of my total skillpoints. Yeah learning and implants fixes everything...
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Zak Kingsman
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
|
Posted - 2007.08.06 13:03:00 -
[64]
when I created this character there was no information on what attributes cover what skills. I am a high charisma(base) and willpower character. I have a 20 in willpower and 17s in everything else w/ advanced learning skills at 4 except for charisma. Advanced learning skills weren't even in the game and implants were ungodly expensive when I started. I've taken a few breaks from the game where I didn't keep up my training, but I've got probably 2 years of solid training time. The alt I cherry picked stats for and made in January has about a 1/3d of my total skillpoints. Yeah learning and implants fixes everything...
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Sariyah
Gallente
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2007.08.06 13:18:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Cheyenne Shadowborn
Originally by: Onnawa
Am I the only person here who's heard of Learning Skills and implants? Just a thought.
am I the only person who's heard that x + learning skill + implant beats y + learning skill + implant for all values of x higher than y?
QFT, heh.
I started years ago (2004 i think) with a charisma being highest (had no clue what the attributes mean, just read some text and clicked more like randomly; had no idea even what this game is about). Realised too late, with millions of SP.
Yeh it'd be nice to correct attributes, in a way that is OK for people like me (like 1 time change or whatever) but it can't be exploited. I would pay for it if CCP would be happier that way (would also prevent most people to change too often).
Like attribute change, once a year at most, shifting 5 attributes at most (only valid builds that can be generated through character creation), 20 eur/usd. Something like that. Don't think it would create all that much chaos, really. But it would make some people happier.
Having said that, I won't delete my char (heh) or stop playing because I was too stupid 3 years ago. But I'd be much happier if I could correct the mistake. :)
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Riho
Gallente
Magnificent Beavers
Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.08.06 13:21:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Riho on 06/08/2007 13:22:47
i dont like this idea :(
Even tho my main (this char) has so bad aribs thats insane.
my secondary atribs (what are usually secondary) are loads highr than primary... my charimsa is VERY high (15 whit base learning 4..)
everything takes freaking ages to train.. even whit +4s and adv 4 rained on all 4 atribs...
ut thats how i made it and thats it :)
---------------------------------------
Sig killed by MODs.... reworking it
Great being Gallente... aint it ?
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YARRRR, sig hijack! -HornFrog
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Calleb
|
Posted - 2007.08.06 14:31:00 -
[67]
The problem I see is that there is little start character diversity as every newly created character that is started by a player who knows what they are doing is one of 2 or 3 basic choices.
I can see a space for a new learning skill called something like "diversity" which could be a rank 8 for example, which allows for the change of 1 attribute point per level.
This would allow a badly borked starting character the chance to be fixed up a bit at a later date. I believe that this would introduce more variety in the starting character creation, which must be a good thing.
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Prometius
Caldari
Dark Nebula Gallente Division
Dark Nebula Galactic Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.06 14:44:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Prometius on 06/08/2007 14:47:01
Edited by: Prometius on 06/08/2007 14:45:39
Asherons call did this, they were the first game to allow players to slowly respec their characters. the way they did it was through a series of quests where you could select a certain skill/attribute you picked so many months ago and manipulate it. my biggest compliment was where you could exchange points from one attribute to another. lets say you have 16 points in charisma (why?) and you had 12 in willpower. you could take 5 and move it from charisma to willpower. this allowed for creation mistakes since noone wanted to level a char to 190 or 210 i think the cap is now. anyway the point is it was on a month cooldown, and it promoted a new beginning for some people who really fubared their characters but conituned to struggle through. the ammount of points you could transfer per month was very small, i believe it was 1. so every month you could take 1 point from any attribute and move it to another attribute.
CCP should seriously consider this, it wouldnt "make or break" a character. it would just allow for players (like myself) who began at release when the tutorial was a drone that said shoot me, mine this, gradz go play.
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Falcyon
Senate and People of Rome
VENOM Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.06 14:55:00 -
[69]
I understand the frustration of it, but I don't think this would solve anything except make the whole aspect of the attributes system useless.
Previous mentions of "re-specing" in other games is a valid point, because the attributes in other games count towards real physical traits about the character. A change in Perception makes you a better scout, for example. But in EVE, the attributes only affect training times. Making the attributes fluid is essentially the same as making all training times the same.
CCP's fix for slow training times for younger characters having to play "catch-up" with multi-year veterans was to introduce Learning skills, create higher-number implants, and give starting characters more SP off the bat. Even after the Learning skills were introduced, they helped to speed up new players further by adding even more skills to starting characters and reducing the requirement for training advanced Learning skills (level 5 for the basics changed to level 4). This cycle will continue, of course.
However, allowing the character to change their attributes is both unrealistic and breaks a game mechanic: the very necessity of attributes at all. If we are able to change their base values permanently, even if only once per week or month, then we negate the need for attributes at all. We might as well do away with the attributes system and give everyone the same training times regardless of skillset.
As for being unrealistic, when the last time you were able to improve your personal skills of perception at the expense of social interaction? Does your long-term memory take a hit when you study mathematics? When you find a new girlfriend, do you lose willpower? (Well, maybe that last one has more truth to it for some :) )
My point is it just doesn't seem right to be able to change attributes on the fly or even over time, other than what the current system allows. Someone mentioned devoting training time to switching attributes? I can already devote training time to improving my attributes without needing to lose anything.
No change is needed. CCP will continue to give new players more base skills as time passes so they can keep up with the times, while we older players can buy our implants. Done deal.
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Nicho Void
Gallente
Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.08.06 15:02:00 -
[70]
Allow me to demonstrate the need. When I created this character, I was 100% a nubbin:
Intelligence19
Perception13
Charisma11
Willpower11
Memory 23
All learning skills to 4, +3 implants. Now that I've played eve for a few months, I've decided that being a combat pilot is the path I want to take. Do you have any idea how depressing it is to look at the 30 day train time on Cruiser V...and think what dread training will be like? I might as well send CCP my sub for the next 5 years and call it good.
Now...I'm still on the fence about being able to change the attributes. It would have to take a while, or cost an ass load, or perhaps only be able to happen once. Hell, I'd even pay CCP some $ when it would so clearly reduce the time to reach my goal.
Of course, I'm lazy. Just my thoughts.
---------------
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Onnawa
Minmatar
Alcohol Fueled Brutality
X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.08.07 12:34:00 -
[71]
Once again, news flash to everyone...
Higher rank skills take longer to train. 30 days on cruiser 5? Sorry, but what is that magical number supposed to be exactly for a Rank 5 skill? I've seen a lot of people in here complaining about how "low" their attributes are. For the vets who got burned back when, I feel your pain. For the new players? Not so much. The new character system hands it to you on a platter. Of all the new characters I've rolled up tinkering around, I've yet to be able to seriously break one on the new templating system. You get primo stats, with the downside sometimes being some wacky skills thrown in that will NEVER be used or useful. Them's the breaks, folks. The problem for nearly all of you isn't that your skills are broken, it's that you're nowhere near as uber on screen as you are in your own minds. Not one person yet has discovered that they can't fly a certain ship or use a certain mod and been transported to a blue screen with white writing on it that says
YOU LOOSE EVE.
Everyone here is confusing wants with needs. You want to fly the baddest flavor of the week. You want to use all the cool toys and gadgets. You don't need to do any of those things. I've wanted to fly a fleet command ship since I started the game; as of October, approximately 2 years later, I'll be able to. Are my stats perfect? No. They're fairly well rounded with a few points of deviation here and there. Instant gratification doesn't exsist in Eve...you want it, work for it. Stop all this "re-specing" nonsense, or be prepared to pay CCP cold hard cash for a one-time shot, because even that is more than most (but not all) of you deserve.
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I'm not a Pirate. I just have anger management issues.......and kleptomania. |
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