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NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.08.05 23:06:00 - [91] Originally by: welsh wizard Anything travelling fast enough for quicker missiles to hit will take next to no damage courtesy of low explosion velocity anyway. Won't make that much difference imo. Also your essay above is all well and good, its also mostly true but its tragically easy to say when you're not the pilot with the problem. I still consider low damage > no damage. And by all means, a crow flying at 10km/s would still be somewhat immune, but I reckon with a bunch of skills and implants the 5km/s ones wouldn't be laughing at all. Perhaps it will help balance, perhaps not. Really don't like the even more certain always-hit feature of missiles with it, but... Considerable. Irony of the story. I'm stupid enough to argue for keeping my own side balance. I do shield tank in pvp and I do use missiles for it.(And occasionally pve). Only reason I'm not the pilot with the problem would be - there not being any problem? Post count: 550985
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.05 23:23:00 - [92] Thats simpily your perception. I'm the guy flying the ship and getting frustrated by its inability to compete with its rivals. I'm guessing you probably don't fly any of these ships? If you do then I can only assume you're happy with their current state because you can hop in your Gallente ship if the going gets tough... Writing off a buff thread without any real argument is basically an insult and one assumes you're in here trying to keep your targets delciously easy to kill...
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.08.05 23:32:00 - [93] Originally by: welsh wizard Thats simpily your perception. I'm the guy flying the ship and getting frustrated by its inability to compete with its rivals. I'm guessing you probably don't fly any of these ships? If you do then I can only assume you're happy with their current state because you can hop in your Gallente ship if the going gets tough... Writing off a buff thread without any real argument is basically an insult and one assumes you're in here trying to keep your targets delciously easy to kill... There is but one reason I don't fly caldari more than I do - the rest of the caldari populace. I do not want to get confused with them in any way. And I prefer writing off the buff threads that don't have any real arguments, than writing off the ones that do.(Yes, it was intended). Funny though, about the "deliciously easy to kill". I thought Caldari had some of the best baitships around, don't they? Rokh and drake are the ones that spring to mind of course. Post count: 307715
cr1ms0n Shadowed Souls	Posted - 2007.08.05 23:35:00 - [94] my rokh can tank 950 dps and dish out some scary dps with it being able to fit 8 modal mega neutron blasters with only one RCU. I pvp in it all the time solo fleet ect. i may not be the best dmg dealing ship or the most uber tank but i ahve the best of both worlds enough dmg to kill the target b4 i die and enough tank to be primary till they die o and i only have 8m sp One of the few honorable pirates
Ryan Darkwolf Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.08.05 23:54:00 - [95] I have a few things to say to you, but first this: (>^-(>O.o)> First of all....Caldari are not droneboats. Second....your attacks ALWAYS HIT (unless you are stupid and are fireing out of range wich then is your fault since they have the longest range) Third....You have the most Med Slots...you are telling me that you cant give up ONE medslot for SBA when I as an Ammar with only 4 can for PvP? Fourth.... Faction Ammo has almost always been better than some T2 ammo, get used to it. Fifth....there is a missle with splash damage, one that when used ****es caldari off. It is called a defender missle...and I can use one of them to kill all your missles in a salvo in one shot Sixth (damn this is getting longer and longer)...not only must all other races train multiple turret skills (alot more than you to fire missles) but we don't get to pick our damage type (unless you are minmatar or you like having an APoc with blasters) Anyway I'm pretty sure I just repeated what ALOT of people have told you...I'm just too lazy to try and read all their posts. ------------------- CCP Mod Proof Siggy (MODERATE THIS BUAHAHAHAHAHAHA)
Merin Ryskin FinFleet	Posted - 2007.08.05 23:57:00 - [96] Caldari have few issues, once you accept that there is no realistic way they are going to have many good solo ships. Short of massive changes to the game mechanics, the midslot conflicts are going to limit this role. So what's left: 1) Many Caldari ships (the missile boats especially) are designed for a mid-range role that doesn't really exist. They have superior range over the short-range competition and superior damage to the true snipers, but no way to exploit it without leaving the target free to warp out. In general, ships that can only add dps are far less useful in pvp, since there are plenty of ships that can add dps while tackling/using ewar/etc. 2) Caldari ships are too slow and heavy to use their range advantage. Most EVE pvp starts at close range, either at a gate/station or a close-range ambush in a belt. Even ignoring the midslot conflict of mwd/ab, Caldari ships are too slow to pull out of range and fight effectively. This also contradicts the background lore, since Caldari ships are supposed to have the weakest armor and are usually smaller than their class equivalents. 3) The Caldari gunboats are cursed with awful split slot layouts. Ships like the Moa and Vulture are just short of awesome, but are held back by the fact that they have 1-2 less turret slots than the other races (Gallente especially, the other hybrid users). There is no reason for this, hybirds are a primary weapon for the Caldari, and the missile/ewar ships don't have this split weapon problem.
Fager Thunderstruck.	Posted - 2007.08.06 00:15:00 - [97] Edited by:**er on 06/08/2007 00:15:24 Originally by: Ryan Darkwolf Second....your attacks ALWAYS HIT (unless you are stupid and are fireing out of range wich then is your fault since they have the longest range) but we don't get to pick our damage type (unless you are minmatar or you like having an APoc with blasters) Ok now these old myths got to stop, becouse thses dont hold true anymore is the reason caldarian missile boats are gaining less and less respect in PvP. Missiles always hit you say, sure we dont miss but we dont WRECK EITHER!. We Always hit for reduced dmg (on smaller ship this is absurd and can count as no hits) On ships faster then 2km wich is just about any speedtank... im sorry to say gunners but our missiles are just about as useless against small targets as your GUNs. And we more often then not dont have the DRONEspace to rectify this! Witch gunships always had. Not that drones can catch much faster ships then 2km either... And once upon a time caldari had this great advantage of choosing dmg to counter its base low DPS with missiles. But wait almost every caldari missile boat cant anymore due to its bonus favoring kinetic dmg. - We had our AGility + Mass Nerfed becouse of double MWD and insane speeds. - We had the status of Missiles Always hit Nerfed because we do it at reduced dmg even if they hit faster ships and we dont wreck them, kinda like guns really not much of an advantage anymore. - We had our congratulations-choose-your-dmg-type nerfed becouse i dunno why really.. It was a characteristic of missiles. Please missiles only got one edge left to them and that is WHEN they hit they hit for same dmg within its whole rangearea. However it doesnt hit BETTER in any range either. Not everything is a dance on roses with missiles, especially in PvP, as it once was. /rant "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Kamikaaazi Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.08.06 00:54:00 - [98] Originally by: Fager all true but you forgot ecm nerf, it took ecm back to stoneage. yarr
Brodde Dim	Posted - 2007.08.06 01:12:00 - [99] Originally by: Ogul Fleet sniper battleship means T2 guns and T2 ammo. But maybe I just didn't get the memo that this has changed recently. No Im not on the caldari ship setup manual mailing list anymore. And yes offcourse you have to fit T2 ammo on your fleet sniper even if it is suboptimal. Why think when you can just copy fitting from other ships. Originally by: Ogul Precisely. A scorpion is still a ship that you want to remove as quickly as possible from the enemy fleet. Luckily it can't fit any tank after the ECM nerf, so getting rid of it is quite easy. It's pointless to fly it, not pointless to shoot it. Then why field it? And why would you like to remove it? It is harmless? Attack any the dangerous ships instead. Originally by: Ogul As for every race having EW that works on all kinds of ships... Any detailed suggestions? Because my first idea would be that every race should have to fit 4 different kinds of modules to have EW that works on all races' ships. Well, ECM disable all targeted weapon systems, and so does RSD. TD only work on gun ships, and TP arent really EW. I think Amarr should get RSD bonuses too, and Minmatar get ECM. Then there should be a EW to disable missiles, just like TD (defenders are weak, and not really good EW) And offcourse EW that disables drones. Something that triggers their built in "forget really fast and improvise" mechanism. I know drones are the only weapon you can destroy, but a complementary EW that lets you keep focus on damaging the host would be nice. But this is a bit off topic.
Neuromandis	Posted - 2007.08.06 05:12:00 - [100] Originally by: NoNah Speaking of ranting... ...I think you misunderstood me. Completely, and at all points where it counts. It could be my english, or it could be too much forum aggressiveness, but you really are responding to a different thing than what I meant. If you take a closer look at "my suggestion" as you put it, you will see that I did NOT say "caldari pve must be ignored as a bonus" I said "caldari pve must NOT be a reason to nerf its pvp" If you still don't understand the difference, NO1 is what your rant was about, while no 2 says that: a) If caldari pve is too good in comparison to the next race, nerf this, not its pvp b) If caldari pvp is too bad in comparison to the next race, boost this, not its pve I did not say pve is irrelevant. I said pve cannot be a balancing factor for pvp. What you said; I basically agree with, but you really should say it to someone that believes that caldari must have the best pvp and pve and everything, not to me. To put it in a nutshell again, gor no more misunderstandings: Eve cannot have 3 pvp races and 1 pve race. It does not get simpler than that. It needs 4 pvp races and 4 pve races. Simple as that. To enforce it doubly: If someone says that caldari are ok because they are the best pve'rs, they are wrong. Everyone should pve effectively, and it is a different discussion than pvp balance. I need to apologize because my emphasis on the need for pvp balance derailed my own argument. I was trying to point out though that you cannot balance something that you train for in three months with something that you train for up till the moment when you hit the unsubscribe button. Clearer? --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.08.06 06:41:00 - [101] the funny thing is other races do pve well... I've flown a gallente and caldari for pve and some missions are faster for one ship, and some missions are faster for the other.... just depends on the faction your fighting.
Captain Sonata	Posted - 2007.08.06 11:41:00 - [102] Edited by: Captain Sonata on 06/08/2007 11:41:52 I'm just glad that Gallente has it all going for them. Gallente Cruiser IV now training(always loved the Deimos/Ishtar). 'nough said.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.06 11:49:00 - [103] Originally by: General Apocalypse Originally by: Eva Unit Armortankers can tank a lot of ships at once... Ever seen a Raven last long enough to kill a bs when under fire? PS: Deimos can do lvl 4 missions afk, tank everything and let the drones do the work... Caldari PVE 4TW!!! You lot your brains or something ? A raven is the fastest way to PVE ask any 2 brain cells monkey . Do even fly the deimos or talk out of your ass ? Try Raven vs Megatron whit a starting distance of 30 KM (maxium at a gate dogfight) see who owns who . I TRIED! a proper plated mega wtfbbqs raven up to 30k..
Bad Borris Caldari Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.08.06 11:56:00 - [104] Edited by: Bad Borris on 06/08/2007 11:57:16 Boost caldari nerf gallente, amarr and minmitar. actually quit whining, caldari are ok and dont believe the shield tanking and missiles are crap brigade either.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.06 12:09:00 - [105] Edited by: d026 on 06/08/2007 12:09:43 Imho the only problem is that shieldtanking is midslots (and not strong enough even tough shieldtanking on paper is more efficient than armor tanking) combined with extremely poor dps. In current PVP you are death without MWD + Injector especially combined with such poor dps. Fitting MWD + Injector leaves you with a extremely poor tank AND still poor dps. So right now Caldari ships can be indeed quite powerful but you have to plate/armor tank them to make up midslots for ew/tackling/speed. (the rokh and the ceptors work ok tough). So the most simple solution would be to make just all caldari ships armor tanks (remove some mids and give them some lows) or make shieldtanking lowslot modules. A littloe more agility would be nice to!
Ejderdisi Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.06 12:50:00 - [106] ok, fix for calderi is giving it his agility. Not speed but agility. Now when u jump next to a deimos at 30km it will mwd to u and rip u apart. As u can't now even warp out if the game starts as a suprise for both parties. A calderi Rokh with sucky DPS of all snipers, but best range, will be the last ship warping off if any interceptor warps into sniper spot. An eagle with sucky DPS, can not change SS fast as its a brick so he should press to warp button, when his interceptor foe comes under 50 km. A drake, a NH even a vulture is brick. Though snipers must be nimble. Fastly changing SSs if they prepared good. And kitting ppl with range(long range)but not MWDing. my 2 isk
RedLion Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:03:00 - [107] Raven is soooo slow! :( Give us a "Caldari navigation" skill :P - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:08:00 - [108] Originally by: RedLion Raven is soooo slow! :( Give us a "Caldari navigation" skill :P what?
Tao Han Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:21:00 - [109] Woah! Looks like I stumbled ona reverse e-peen measuring contest... A. Mine is the smallest! B. No mine is, noob A. Bet you can see yours when you stand up! ------ Turret: -a small tower extending above a building gun enclosure: a self-contained weapons -platform housing guns and capable of rotation Turret people, not turrent!!
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:26:00 - [110] Originally by: Fager Ok now these old myths got to stop, becouse thses dont hold true anymore is the reason caldarian missile boats are gaining less and less respect in PvP. Missiles always hit you say, sure we dont miss but we dont WRECK EITHER!. Speaking of myths Turrets can get good damage hits (wrecking, excellent,...) and bad damage hits (barely scratching, glancing off). While the chance for these hits (exept wrecking) is also effected by transversal and range (if in falloff) it also happens against a target which stands still within optimal range. In short: "OMG I just got a wrecking for xxx damage" is countered by "OMG I just got a glancing hit for 0 damage". Turrets deal in the long run not more than their average damage and just like with missiles that average damage is reduced or negated by high speed.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:32:00 - [111] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Fager Ok now these old myths got to stop, becouse thses dont hold true anymore is the reason caldarian missile boats are gaining less and less respect in PvP. Missiles always hit you say, sure we dont miss but we dont WRECK EITHER!. Speaking of myths Turrets can get good damage hits (wrecking, excellent,...) and bad damage hits (barely scratching, glancing off). While the chance for these hits (exept wrecking) is also effected by transversal and range (if in falloff) it also happens against a target which stands still within optimal range. In short: "OMG I just got a wrecking for xxx damage" is countered by "OMG I just got a glancing hit for 0 damage". Turrets deal in the long run not more than their average damage and just like with missiles that average damage is reduced or negated by high speed. But we can simpily refer to killboards full of dead missile ships at the hands of turret ships and your argument vanishes into thin air. KAPFFFT!
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:47:00 - [112] Originally by: welsh wizard But we can simpily refer to killboards full of dead missile ships at the hands of turret ships and your argument vanishes into thin air. KAPFFFT! Yes, because that is (even if it is true and no gross overexeggeration and generalisation) clearly caused by what I said not being true. Even if there is a perfect balance pvp wise between turret & missileships (be it the case already or not) we would STILL have more missileship kills than turret skills. Know why? Because the majority of PvErs uses missiles. Guess what happens when a PvP fitted turret or missileship encounters a PvE fitted missileship? Fact is turrets deal only average damage in the long run, this has been show multiple times already (see for example naughty boys spreadsheets). They have compared to the static damage of missiles a greater damagevariation, but not more than average dps. Claiming they deal more dps due to wrecking hits ignores that there you can get under exactly the same circumstances also glancing off hits which deal zero zip zilch damage, whereas a missile would hit for identical damage in both cases.
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.08.06 13:55:00 - [113] Originally by: welsh wizard But we can simpily refer to killboards full of dead missile ships at the hands of turret ships and your argument vanishes into thin air. KAPFFFT! Now look at the ratio missile ships : barges and industrials. Or even killed frigates : battleships. Frigates, haulers and barges clearly need a buff. Reason there are so much more dead missile ships is simply because theyre OFTEN used for other things. And in some cases they are potent targets that are often called primary - such as the scorpion. Post count: 677943
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:02:00 - [114] Originally by: Kamikaaazi atm raven and crow are pretty much the only caldari ships flown in pvp gang. Reason the raven is being used isnt because its so good but because ppl have no alternative for it. Scorp got nerfed to hell and rokh just sucks in a regular fleets.-rokh is great in fleets,the scorp is still quite annoying for the enemy. Just look at the t2 missiles. Javelins got nerfed hard and are pretty much usless unless you like to have no damage at all. Rage torps are utterly crap compared to faction missiles. Same goes for all smaller missiles. Cruise missiles have almost no dps at and why would you like to use precision missiles when everything can be done better on turret boats.-Ever try to track a frig with large turrets?Cruise precision is awesome,but i agree with the torps. Secondly, caldari turret boats suck donkey balls. WTF is deimos getting boosted when merlin/moa/eagle/vulture are the ones that should get some attention. For example vulture, what use is 2x10% optimal range when you have no base targeting range at all? Why eagle needs 2 useless high slots when its supposed to be a EXTREME long range sniper? How come ships that have more turrets than caldari boats still have 2-4 times larger dronebays? Makes any sense to you? It sure as hell doesnt for me!-Merlin is used for tackling(4 mids),eagle is one of the few cruisers that can snipe as good as a bs(range wise),vulture has one badass passive shield tank,and on the note about the useless 2 highs,the tempest has the same thing,aswell as many other snipers. Shield tanking isnt a viable option for pvp. Its hard to fit tnx to insane cpu requirements. Why use a ship with as good tank as any turret ship with 50% dps? Oh and PLZ FIX tactical shield manipulation. Make it reduce shield module cpu by 5%. Ever tried to fit phoenix or chimera? Why i allways have like 300-400k grid left with 0 cpu? It would solve alot problems with 1 blow. Also tweak missile support skills to the same lvl with turret support skills. rank5 2% damage bonus vs rank4 3% bonus, same with rof skills. How come some missile skills dont affect some missile types at all?-Kinda agree,its not hard to fit the phoenix or chim but shield tanking isnt teh pwn(besides passive). While your at it plz add some extra launchers, so ppl have acctually stuff to choose from. ATM caldari has 8 different launchers and 7 skills for those. While turret boats can choose from ~20 turrets with only 4 skills needed. Hows that balanced? Lets not even talk about ammo options. Why dont you make t2 high damage missiles have splash damage? See, theres your antiblob problem solved to some extent.4 for 20?-lets see...if you take small med large for pulse lasers you have to train:small turrets med turrets large turrets small specialisation med special and large special,and you need to train for small before med etc...whereas missiles you dont need to do that. With my 57m sp pure caldari main i can easily say that im running out of ships to fly. (With only crow being left)I can do anything better with my 40m sp crosstrained alt.-Kinda,crosstraining is the name of the game most of the time,but with a caldari alt im happy with his mission running capability and to some extent pvp capability. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:12:00 - [115] Edited by: welsh wizard on 06/08/2007 14:12:23 Originally by: goodby4u lets see...if you take small med large for pulse lasers you have to train:small turrets med turrets large turrets small specialisation med special and large special,and you need to train for small before med etc...whereas missiles you dont need to do that. Yes but if we actually want to use those smaller missile systems and the ships that use them we still have to train the skills!!! How is this difficult to understand!?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:30:00 - [116] Originally by: Lord Loom I've gotta agree with welsh wizard - at least people like Goum make their arguments against Caldari boosts appear intelligent and well-funded... I am not trying to argue against Caldari boosts[except for more long range damage for the eagle and vulture]. I am trying to argue against this caldari boost with regards to low mass and higher speed. The longest ranged ships in the game need to be the slowest. The ships that need to dictate range the fastest and the ships that need to get up close the second fastest. To achieve this, in order of fastest to slowest you need to look like Minmitar Gallente Amarr Caldari I think the moa and ferox are low on DPS for their range and need 1 and 2 turrets respectivly. I think the Moa and Caracal needs more drones, the Caracal needs another low slot and the Ferox another high and mid. I think HAM and Torpedo fitting needs to be reduced to at least 10% under hml/cruise fitting and i think that missile speeds need to be increased by 2-3 times with a commensurate reduction in flight time.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:30:00 - [117] Originally by: welsh wizard Yes but if we actually want to use those smaller missile systems and the ships that use them we still have to train the skills!!! How is this difficult to understand!? There is something called "specialisation". Some people do not want to be "jack of all trades & the master of none" and only spec into one certain ship (or shipclass or shipsize) in which case weapons "smaller" or "bigger" are quite useless to them. That being said, training times missiles vs turrets are ok. Not because "you have to train the "smaller" skill anyway but because missile support skills take longer to max than turret support skills and because you need to train 2 different t1 weaponskills for long & shortrange missiles.
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.08.06 14:59:00 - [118] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Lord Loom I've gotta agree with welsh wizard - at least people like Goum make their arguments against Caldari boosts appear intelligent and well-funded... I am not trying to argue against Caldari boosts[except for more long range damage for the eagle and vulture]. I am trying to argue against this caldari boost with regards to low mass and higher speed. The longest ranged ships in the game need to be the slowest. The ships that need to dictate range the fastest and the ships that need to get up close the second fastest. To achieve this, in order of fastest to slowest you need to look like Minmitar Gallente Amarr Caldari I think the moa and ferox are low on DPS for their range and need 1 and 2 turrets respectivly. I think the Moa and Caracal needs more drones, the Caracal needs another low slot and the Ferox another high and mid. I think HAM and Torpedo fitting needs to be reduced to at least 10% under hml/cruise fitting and i think that missile speeds need to be increased by 2-3 times with a commensurate reduction in flight time. 1. Nobody wants more speed for Caldari. We want more AGILITY and less MASS. 2. So if I am the longest ranged sniper, I am not allowed to be able to keep that range (I am the slowest ship). But the middle range ship IS allowed to keep its range. So my range advantage ends up in a short timespan advantage while the middle range ship gets all the benefits of speed and damage vs the close range ship ? wow. Or did I misunderstand anything ? IMO range = keeping it. Range you cannot keep is worth nothing (well almost). Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.08.06 15:03:00 - [119] Originally by: Hugh Ruka 1. Nobody wants more speed for Caldari. We want more AGILITY and less MASS. 2. So if I am the longest ranged sniper, I am not allowed to be able to keep that range (I am the slowest ship). But the middle range ship IS allowed to keep its range. So my range advantage ends up in a short timespan advantage while the middle range ship gets all the benefits of speed and damage vs the close range ship ? wow. Or did I misunderstand anything ? IMO range = keeping it. Range you cannot keep is worth nothing (well almost). If you start firing at them from 200km, they will take massive damage before they're near you. If they have 10km range, what can they do about it? Yes, they're faster than you, if you were faster then them they could never ever do anything to you - short of laying traps. And just what would less mass and more agility provide if not more.. speed? Ironic, I thought some other poster just claimed that caldari is dominating that middlerange arena "that doesn't really exist"? Post count: 261257
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.08.06 15:08:00 - [120] To bring caldari gunboats upto speed, give them more turret slots and remove their missile launcher slots. i.e. give the ferox an extra turret slot or 2 so that it has the same as its brutix counterpart. (and cpu/pg to allow it). Then you have a comparable ship in terms of turrets alone, brutix damage vs caldari range. Drone bay should be similar on the ships, i don't buy into this we're a close range race therefore get this bonus for free. If your getting a bigger drone bay than snipers, the snipers then they should get a bonus in return. Maybe an extra turret or midslot (to fit that SB that snipers require) Missiles need a boost in pvp, torpedoes were _way_ overnerfed. I agree rage torps were overpowered, but nerfing them in all directions was way too much. As for speed/mass etc, well there should be some benefit for being a fatter or slower boat, even if it is slightly more shields/armour.

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