Originally by: Lady Khanid

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Anti Frig

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Photon Scattering Field II

Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II

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Quote:

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"Guns are fine, boost players"

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Quote:

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"Players are fine, boost guns"

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.

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Fleet engagements have quickly become the status quo of PVP in EVE... life in 0.0 demands it. If you think I'm out of touch with current PVP dynamics... you'd be wrong.

Yes, small wandering gangs still exist... and small scale PVP still happens. However, please explain why you'd prefer to have a Cerb with a small wandering gang versus an Ishtar, Vagabond, or a handful of other cruiser sized ships? Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.

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Fleet engagements have quickly become the status quo of PVP in EVE... life in 0.0 demands it. If you think I'm out of touch with current PVP dynamics... you'd be wrong.

Yes, small wandering gangs still exist... and small scale PVP still happens. However, please explain why you'd prefer to have a Cerb with a small wandering gang versus an Ishtar, Vagabond, or a handful of other cruiser sized ships? Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

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We specialize in small gang (30ish) roaming pvp squads.

Cerb is > Vaga in gangs of this size. It's missiles can cover the entire scope of the engagement while keeping the cerb at a safe distance.

A Vaga will have to go within what 25km of its target to do anything at all. At that distance a decent gang's Huginn will web the **** out of it and the Vaga will get 1 vollied by 20 ships.

Drones suck ass as gang size increases. Their flight time is even longer than the flight time of missiles and if you leave em behind you've lost isk and after a couple rounds you are useless.

In small fast moving gangs a cerb can fit ewar and either long range heavy missiles or assaults /w precision as mentioned along with ewar and *****tacklers.

Its a good ship you just need to think outside the box a bit.

Don't tank it. Gank + ewar like all Caldari gang ships should be minus command ships.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.

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Fleet engagements have quickly become the status quo of PVP in EVE... life in 0.0 demands it. If you think I'm out of touch with current PVP dynamics... you'd be wrong.

Yes, small wandering gangs still exist... and small scale PVP still happens. However, please explain why you'd prefer to have a Cerb with a small wandering gang versus an Ishtar, Vagabond, or a handful of other cruiser sized ships? Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

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We specialize in small gang (30ish) roaming pvp squads.

Cerb is > Vaga in gangs of this size. It's missiles can cover the entire scope of the engagement while keeping the cerb at a safe distance.

A Vaga will have to go within what 25km of its target to do anything at all. At that distance a decent gang's Huginn will web the **** out of it and the Vaga will get 1 vollied by 20 ships.

Drones suck ass as gang size increases. Their flight time is even longer than the flight time of missiles and if you leave em behind you've lost isk and after a couple rounds you are useless.

In small fast moving gangs a cerb can fit ewar and either long range heavy missiles or assaults /w precision as mentioned along with ewar and *****tacklers.

Its a good ship you just need to think outside the box a bit.

Don't tank it. Gank + ewar like all Caldari gang ships should be minus command ships.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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[...] Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

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Originally by: Amarr knight

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30 man gang is not SMALL.

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Quote:

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"Guns are fine, boost players"

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Quote:

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"Players are fine, boost guns"

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Originally by: Hectaire Glade

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I have mixed feelings about the Cerb these days, its still a great 'annoyance' missile ship, orbit out around 90K mark you'll still be landing your [very limited] damage, and if you keep your eyes open you wont die very often.

It does lack a bit of punch though, and unless you have someone in close tackling for you that range advantage is going to be easily undone by your target warping off.

Fits its roll very well, just needs a little boost on the damage. imho.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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We specialize in small gang (30ish) roaming pvp squads.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Cerb is > Vaga in gangs of this size. It's missiles can cover the entire scope of the engagement while keeping the cerb at a safe distance.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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A Vaga will have to go within what 25km of its target to do anything at all. At that distance a decent gang's Huginn will web the **** out of it and the Vaga will get 1 vollied by 20 ships.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Drones suck ass as gang size increases.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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In small fast moving gangs a cerb can fit ewar and either long range heavy missiles or assaults /w precision as mentioned along with ewar and *****tacklers.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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First this isn't a moan because I don't even fly them these days. With the onset of Battlecruisers, Command Ships and now Khanid MK. 2, what is the point of a Cerberus these days? A Drake and a Nighthawk have a superior tank and greater DPS potential than a Cerberus. Sure they're slow but with the size of some of these ships tanks, who cares? A Sacrilege, once the changes go through, will have superior speed, lower mass therefore greater manuverability and potentially a greater tank and with Assualt Missiles it will definately have better DPS.

One might argue that the changes will allow a Cerberus to outrange a Sacrelige but a Drake and Nighthawk will have the same range and a Drake is easier to train for since you don't need Caldari Cruiser V (only III) like you do for a Cerberus. I don't think the same argument can be applied to the Nighthawk because a Damnation will have one less Launcher slot so at least on paper, the Nighthawk should still do greater DPS. Unfortunately, a Cerberus won't due to the aforementioned reasons.

So my question is, why would anyone want to use a Ceberus these days?

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Originally by: "QproQ"

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When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Long range missile spam.

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a. Long range missile spam is useless in PVP... as the target will be vaportized or gone by the time the missiles hit...

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Yes, provided the missile ships are firing at the primary along with the rest of them, but there's nothing that says they have to.

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Originally by: ElCholo

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Nighthawk / Drake do NOT get the missile range bonus of Cerberus.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: ElCholo

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Nighthawk / Drake do NOT get the missile range bonus of Cerberus.

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Please read what I've said. With the superior tanks on a Nighthawk/Drake coupled with warp to zero/Cov Ops/Recons you do not need a range bonus. Solo in an Eagle, I can at least harass targets. Solo in a Cerb, I'm wasting ammo because my target warps out. Similary, once the changes go through, since I'm armor tanking in a Sacrelige, I can use my Mid slots for tackling modules therefore I'm going to make better use of my missiles. I don't want a range bonus because I can't tackle at range therefore given the nature of missiles, it's a useless bonus. Why not change that bonus to a Warp disruption distance bonus if you want it to be a mid-range missile spammer. At least then it'd fufil its intended role better than it does now.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: ElCholo

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Nighthawk / Drake do NOT get the missile range bonus of Cerberus.

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Please read what I've said. With the superior tanks on a Nighthawk/Drake coupled with warp to zero/Cov Ops/Recons you do not need a range bonus. Solo in an Eagle, I can at least harass targets. Solo in a Cerb, I'm wasting ammo because my target warps out. Similary, once the changes go through, since I'm armor tanking in a Sacrelige, I can use my Mid slots for tackling modules therefore I'm going to make better use of my missiles. I don't want a range bonus because I can't tackle at range therefore given the nature of missiles, it's a useless bonus. Why not change that bonus to a Warp disruption distance bonus if you want it to be a mid-range missile spammer. At least then it'd fufil its intended role better than it does now.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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That pretty much sums it up. However, the problem is a range bonus on a ship that uses a weapons system with a 'flight time'. What good are missiles from 50k+ out when they travel slowly. Guided missiles are already on the low end of DPS when compared to most weapon systems. Add to that fact that missiles do 0 DPS till they hit the target and the Cerb as a 'long range cruiser' is nowhere near as useful as other ships in the same role. Give me a Deimos, Muninn, Eagle or other cruiser instead please.

And assuming you want to simply throw missiles away from a distance... just use a Caracal. It has a drone bay and two turret hardpoints more than the Cerb... and costs a fraction of the price.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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That pretty much sums it up. However, the problem is a range bonus on a ship that uses a weapons system with a 'flight time'. What good are missiles from 50k+ out when they travel slowly. Guided missiles are already on the low end of DPS when compared to most weapon systems. Add to that fact that missiles do 0 DPS till they hit the target and the Cerb as a 'long range cruiser' is nowhere near as useful as other ships in the same role. Give me a Deimos, Muninn, Eagle or other cruiser instead please.

And assuming you want to simply throw missiles away from a distance... just use a Caracal. It has a drone bay and two turret hardpoints more than the Cerb... and costs a fraction of the price.

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Exactly, thank you. Missiles never have been a viable weapon system at mid to long range so it's always been used at close range and will continue to do so only now, at close range, the Sacrelige, Drake and Nighthawk are superior therefore the Cerb needs a rethink on what role it plays because a "long range Missile spammer" isn't a role. It is, like the above posted points out, a waste of ammo.

Yes it can pop frigs but so can a Harpy for a tenth of the cost. Sure it can do level 3 missions faster than a Drake or Nighthawk but are we saying the Cerb should be relegated to a PvE only ship?

Get rid of the range bonus which is useless and give it something useful.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Long range missile spam.

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Which a Drake or Nighthawk does better and where a Drake does it not only better but for less training time and less money.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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First this isn't a moan because I don't even fly them these days. With the onset of Battlecruisers, Command Ships and now Khanid MK. 2, what is the point of a Cerberus these days? A Drake and a Nighthawk have a superior tank and greater DPS potential than a Cerberus. Sure they're slow but with the size of some of these ships tanks, who cares? A Sacrilege, once the changes go through, will have superior speed, lower mass therefore greater manuverability and potentially a greater tank and with Assualt Missiles it will definately have better DPS.

One might argue that the changes will allow a Cerberus to outrange a Sacrelige but a Drake and Nighthawk will have the same range and a Drake is easier to train for since you don't need Caldari Cruiser V (only III) like you do for a Cerberus. I don't think the same argument can be applied to the Nighthawk because a Damnation will have one less Launcher slot so at least on paper, the Nighthawk should still do greater DPS. Unfortunately, a Cerberus won't due to the aforementioned reasons.

So my question is, why would anyone want to use a Ceberus these days?

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Originally by: Tovarishch
To be honest, I'm quite happy with the concept of long-range missile platforms. What is ridiculous is the fact that ships such as the Cerberus are in every way designed to throw missiles from range... while missiles themselves travel very slowly. A ranged missile ship (or any missile ship, in reality) is doing 0 DPS till it's missiles impact the target.

Therefore, a Cerb fulfilling its role and making the best use of its bonuses is designed to do 0 DPS for approximately the first 10 seconds of the fight. And even then... the fastest missiles are still at the low end of the spectrum when compared to other weapon systems.

The problem isn't the ship, or it's bonuses... the problem is missile flight time. Period.
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I know it's fufilling it's role. The point is the role is useless. Mid to long range missile spam is useless and yes, because of missile flightime, insofar as the fact it has a flight time. It's the age old argument but the problem is it's being pushed towards a role that is the most useless role in the game. It's a similar situation to the Rokh. It's been pushed towards the role of extreme sniper yet you can happily shoot further than you can target. Difference there though is you have the flexibility to use take advantage of your range bonus by employing a variety of tactics (Blaster Rokh or Short range Ammo or T1 guns at T2 ranges etc.)

Due to the nature of Missiles you lack that flexiblity so forcing the Cerb to go long range simply limits it to a niche tactic that can be employed by other ships in a far superior nature (Munin, Eagle etc.). Khanid II brings with it a change that allows a ship to truly take potential of a Missiles strength, i.e. the ability to inflict all damage types at short range and by it being an Armour tanker, allows for it to further enhance that strength by tackling your oponent. Why would I use a missile boat where my DPS is lower and my oponent can make me waste ammo and escape when, for the sake of 20 days training, I can use a missile boat that has higher DPS and can prevent my enemy from escaping?

I know the pros and cons of a Cerb because I do have extensive PvP expereince in them but I gave them up because otherships take advantage of their bonuses to a far greater extent than the Cerberus does. And therein lies the crux of my argument - because of the nature of its weapon system, it fails to utilise one of its bonuses in any situation beyond PvE. I wasn't suggesting give it a 50km Scram range but how about giving it the same distance as an Arazu where at least combined with its speed, it can be a viable mid-range Missile spammer.





Make a Difference

Originally by: Liang Nuren

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If gangs of 30 are small, I need to quit eve. WTF.

Liang

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