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Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.16 21:36:00 - [121] Originally by: Awox Originally by: Tovarishch The Cerb will still lose over 5000 DPS in the given situation... whether it's a comparison to the Zealot or not is irrelevant. Flight time at long range kills missile DPS. It's a fact. 5000 dps, wtf? Maybe you lose that much DPS when you use it. Math please. Don't include "target died before I got there", because that comes down to pilot error and nothing else. It's a fact. When well you get it mate? Ships are not meant to be awesome at everything. All other long range cruisers are screwed when something gets under range of them, a Cerb can hang on longer because it doesn't sacrifice it's mids for loads of tracking comps.. Read post #102 and please calculate flight time into the proposed Cerberus DPS. All the info is in the thread. You just have to read it. My crusade for faster missiles.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.16 21:42:00 - [122] Originally by: Tovarishch Originally by: Awox Originally by: Tovarishch The Cerb will still lose over 5000 DPS in the given situation... whether it's a comparison to the Zealot or not is irrelevant. Flight time at long range kills missile DPS. It's a fact. 5000 dps, wtf? Maybe you lose that much DPS when you use it. Math please. Don't include "target died before I got there", because that comes down to pilot error and nothing else. It's a fact. When well you get it mate? Ships are not meant to be awesome at everything. All other long range cruisers are screwed when something gets under range of them, a Cerb can hang on longer because it doesn't sacrifice it's mids for loads of tracking comps.. Read post #102 and please calculate flight time into the proposed Cerberus DPS. All the info is in the thread. You just have to read it. I dont think you get it. See, the other ships in comparison do 0 dps at those ranges. So its only a delay in damage if those ships you are comparing them to travel faster than 12km/s. Just like the 4.5 seconds for the short range hams is only a a penalty if the other ship can close the distance between its opimtal and the cerbs in 4.5 seconds. Which is roughly 3km/s for a Zealot.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.16 21:48:00 - [123] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Tovarishch Originally by: Awox Originally by: Tovarishch The Cerb will still lose over 5000 DPS in the given situation... whether it's a comparison to the Zealot or not is irrelevant. Flight time at long range kills missile DPS. It's a fact. 5000 dps, wtf? Maybe you lose that much DPS when you use it. Math please. Don't include "target died before I got there", because that comes down to pilot error and nothing else. It's a fact. When well you get it mate? Ships are not meant to be awesome at everything. All other long range cruisers are screwed when something gets under range of them, a Cerb can hang on longer because it doesn't sacrifice it's mids for loads of tracking comps.. Read post #102 and please calculate flight time into the proposed Cerberus DPS. All the info is in the thread. You just have to read it. I dont think you get it. See, the other ships in comparison do 0 dps at those ranges. So its only a delay in damage if those ships you are comparing them to travel faster than 12km/s. Just like the 4.5 seconds for the short range hams is only a a penalty if the other ship can close the distance between its opimtal and the cerbs in 4.5 seconds. Which is roughly 3km/s for a Zealot. The Zealot and Muninn do 0 DPS at 95k range? What? Your example was that the Cerb could theoretically do 365 DPS at 95k using HAMs. Both the Zealot and the Muninn can operate at such ranges... and do significant DPS with absolutely no delay in damage. My crusade for faster missiles.
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.08.16 21:49:00 - [124] You never gave the maths to prove the DPS is castrated, you just make this claim. Castrated is a bit of an exaggeration so do the math. I'm gunna stop trying to argue, you're obviously right, and everyone arguing in favor of the Cerberus is completely wrong. To you write this as you alt tab from a boring fleet fight / POS engagement btw? - ccp <3 ISK sellers boost dictors (a bit!) remotely destroy JCs
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.16 22:36:00 - [125] Ok so this isn't really a cerberus sucks kind of thread, but rather a "boost missile speed" thread? --- Put in space whales!
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.16 23:20:00 - [126] Edited by: Tovarishch on 16/08/2007 23:23:01 Originally by: Lisento Slaven Ok so this isn't really a cerberus sucks kind of thread, but rather a "boost missile speed" thread? Precisely. I think the Cerb is a fine ship. However, the weapons it uses aren't suited to the role for which it was designed - a long-range missile platform. Slow missiles from range is a laughable idea. Fix missile velocity and suddenly the Cerb is a ship with a useful role. My crusade for faster missiles.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.16 23:51:00 - [127] Originally by: Tovarishch The Zealot and Muninn do 0 DPS at 95k range? What? Your example was that the Cerb could theoretically do 365 DPS at 95k using HAMs. Both the Zealot and the Muninn can operate at such ranges... and do significant DPS with absolutely no delay in damage. An AC Muninn and Pulse Zealot do 0 DPS at 98km. Now a Beam Zealot will do 232 dps at 98km with aurora, and 401 DPS at 30km with Amarr Navy Multifreqency. But it wont track nearly as well as the Cerberus will. So now the cerb has a huge advantage in the short range. And the Cerberus can do this with one setup simply by changing ammo, that is pretty darn impressive. If i could hit to 95km with pulse lasers on a Zealot and do even 100 dps i would be jumping for joy,
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.16 23:57:00 - [128] Edited by: Tovarishch on 16/08/2007 23:59:29 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Tovarishch The Zealot and Muninn do 0 DPS at 95k range? What? Your example was that the Cerb could theoretically do 365 DPS at 95k using HAMs. Both the Zealot and the Muninn can operate at such ranges... and do significant DPS with absolutely no delay in damage. An AC Muninn and Pulse Zealot do 0 DPS at 98km. Now a Beam Zealot will do 232 dps at 98km with aurora, and 401 DPS at 30km with Amarr Navy Multifreqency. But it wont track nearly as well as the Cerberus will. So now the cerb has a huge advantage in the short range. And the Cerberus can do this with one setup simply by changing ammo, that is pretty darn impressive. If i could hit to 95km with pulse lasers on a Zealot and do even 100 dps i would be jumping for joy, So, now you change the argument and discuss short-range tactics. You know, I can see where you are coming from... but I think I've realized that you aren't here to discuss things rationally. You change arguments when one fails. As I've mentioned before, there was a time when I respected your views and arguments. They seemed sound and well-thought out. Between this and the Eagle thread I'm actually thinking someone bought your character. PS. Just so you know... a pulse Zealot or AC Muninn can close the distance to a target in nearly as long a time it takes for the Cerb's first volley of missiles to reach the target. Regardless, I'm sure you'll find some other way to twist this argument. My crusade for faster missiles.
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.08.17 00:32:00 - [129] Quote: An AC Muninn and Pulse Zealot do 0 DPS at 98km. Now a Beam Zealot will do 232 dps at 98km with aurora, and 401 DPS at 30km with Amarr Navy Multifreqency. But it wont track nearly as well as the Cerberus will. So now the cerb has a huge advantage in the short range. And the Cerberus can do this with one setup simply by changing ammo, that is pretty darn impressive. If i could hit to 95km with pulse lasers on a Zealot and do even 100 dps i would be jumping for joy wow so he admits that the 'dedicated' sniping muninn and zealot do in fact have a few other roles...... make up your mind man.... i thought there was only one plausible fit for zealot and muninn and thats sniper right? thats what you've based your whole argument against the eagle . just stop talkin scrub, or stick to consitancy.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.17 00:37:00 - [130] Originally by: Tovarishch PS. Just so you know... a pulse Zealot or AC Muninn can close the distance to a target in nearly as long a time it takes for the Cerb's first volley of missiles to reach the target. I can also twist the argument and, since you just changed weapons and ranges, ask what would happen if the opposite were true and the Cerb had Heavy Launchers fitted and was stuck at close range with the pulse Zealot and AC Muninn. Regardless, I'm sure you'll simply find a way to try to sneak some change into the argument hoping I (or someone else) doesn't notice. So pulse zealots and AC muninns do "nearly" 7.9 km/s now? And you are twisting what he says. Fact is that a cerb with jav hams OUTRANGES a zealot with heavy beams. 140k max range vs 114k optimal with 3 tracking comps. The shortrange weapon outranges the longrange weapon. Yes, if a cerb with heavies encounters a zealot with pulses at short range the cerberus will be at a disadvantage. However, the cerb with HAMs encountering a zealot with beams at long range WONT.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.17 00:44:00 - [131] Edited by: Tovarishch on 17/08/2007 00:52:13 Originally by: Aramendel So pulse zealots and AC muninns do "nearly" 7.9 km/s now? Firstly, this wasn't even the original scenario we discussed. We began discussing sniping when he then decided to bait and switch and comprare a pulse Zealot to a Cerb with HAMs at 95k. He changed it to strengthen his argument. Regardless, read the entire thread and relevant posts. Those HAMs at that range will take appx. 12 seconds to reach their target... in that time a Zealot or Muninn fitted for short range can nearly reach their optimal using the proper ammo. All the while the Cerb has, if lucky, landed one salvo. It's easy to change quantities/qualities to make what was a sound argument seem ridiculous... which is what he tried to do. Originally by: Aramendel And you are twisting what he says. Fact is that a cerb with jav hams OUTRANGES a zealot with heavy beams. 140k max range vs 114k optimal with 3 tracking comps. The shortrange weapon outranges the longrange weapon. I'm doing nothing of the sort. Again, read. His scenario was originally a short-range Zealot, short-range Muninn, and a Cerb with HAMs at 95k... which is ridiculous and not the point of the original argument. I never once said that the Zealot of Muninn could outrange a Cerb. Read. Originally by: Aramendel Yes, if a cerb with heavies encounters a zealot with pulses at short range the cerberus will be at a disadvantage. However, the cerb with HAMs encountering a zealot with beams at long range WONT. Excellent analysis. That was my entire point. Thanks. Now we're all on the same page. Edit - changed first paragraph for clarity. My crusade for faster missiles.
Nahno	Posted - 2007.08.17 00:59:00 - [132] cerberus good! me like cerberus!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.17 01:34:00 - [133] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/08/2007 01:34:45 Originally by: Tovarishch Firstly, this wasn't even the original scenario we discussed. We began discussing sniping when he then decided to bait and switch and comprare a pulse Zealot to a Cerb with HAMs at 95k. There was no bait and switch. Here is a link to my first post in this conversation regarding the cerb and zealot. Notice that both lines listing DPS were listed with pulses? You then replied that Also, you mention using HAMs at a range of 95k. Factor in flight time to DPS and tell me how high it is then. Thanks. I then reply with this, which you pick up on After flight time its pretty bad, a whole 12 seconds. But the 30km range comes in under 3. A few posts later, you reply directly with this The 12 second flight time that you mention equates to over 5000 DPS lost... when the Cerb is already neck-in-neck for damage with the Zealot. Wait a second! The Zealot with pulses cant hit to 95km. 12 seconds of flight time at 95km equates to 2784 damage for a beam zealot with aurora. Which is pretty high, the Beam Zealot clearly has a large advantage over the Cerberus. Its about a 21 second dps advantage. Frankly that is much too high. But that same cerberus has a huge advantage in the short range when encountering that same Zealot or any other ship for that matter. More DPS, low fight time AND better equivelent tracking. But when the Short range Zealot hits the HAM cerb, its still down on DPS, with only a slight advantage in flight time if and only if the Zealot lands at 10km. If the short range ship encounters the cerb at long range, the cerb has the advantage. This is basically its missile versitility, it can be effective in the short and long range without changing its build, simply by changing ammo. Ideally easier to fit[I.E. fix ham fitting] with faster missiles, but that is about it.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.17 01:55:00 - [134] Edited by: Tovarishch on 17/08/2007 01:59:48 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Tovarishch Firstly, this wasn't even the original scenario we discussed. We began discussing sniping when he then decided to bait and switch and comprare a pulse Zealot to a Cerb with HAMs at 95k. There was no bait and switch. Here is a link to my first post in this conversation regarding the cerb and zealot. Notice that both lines listing DPS were listed with pulses? You then replied that Also, you mention using HAMs at a range of 95k. Factor in flight time to DPS and tell me how high it is then. Thanks. I then reply with this, which you pick up on After flight time its pretty bad, a whole 12 seconds. But the 30km range comes in under 3. A few posts later, you reply directly with this The 12 second flight time that you mention equates to over 5000 DPS lost... when the Cerb is already neck-in-neck for damage with the Zealot. Wait a second! The Zealot with pulses cant hit to 95km. 12 seconds of flight time at 95km equates to 2784 damage for a beam zealot with aurora. Which is pretty high, the Beam Zealot clearly has a large advantage over the Cerberus. Its about a 21 second dps advantage. Frankly that is much too high. But that same cerberus has a huge advantage in the short range when encountering that same Zealot or any other ship for that matter. More DPS, low fight time AND better equivelent tracking. But when the Short range Zealot hits the HAM cerb, its still down on DPS, with only a slight advantage in flight time if and only if the Zealot lands at 10km. If the short range ship encounters the cerb at long range, the cerb has the advantage. This is basically its missile versitility, it can be effective in the short and long range without changing its build, simply by changing ammo. Ideally easier to fit[I.E. fix ham fitting] with faster missiles, but that is about it. What was baiting and switching was disussing HAM missile DPS compared to a pulse Zealot... and then saying the Zealot will do 0 DPS at 95k. Well... that's not too terribly tough to figure out, is it? Why would a Zealot pilot snipe from 95k with pulses? Meanwhile, the HAMs still have to travel to their target. You threw a short-range kit on a ship and then told me it will do 0 DPS at 95k. Bait and switch. My point was to reverse your scenario (as you were trying to paint the Cerb as being superior at all ranges) and show that the Cerb with proper long-range launchers is inferior in DPS to a Zealot (whether sniping or short-range). You try to make the Cerb out as having superior DPS at long-range while using short-range missiles... which, while it is theoretically possible... no Cerb pilot would do. It's like fitting pulses and trying to snipe. The other point I was making is that your odd mind experiment of having a Cerb 'snipe' with short-range HAMs from max range did not at all factor in the loss of DPS thanks to flight time. You simply posted '365 DPS from 95k' which is patently false. I doubt any Cerb pilot with half a brain is going to fire HAMs from 95k. Is it possible? Sure. Is it smart? No. You're playing EVE on paper. Regardless, you've already agreed (as many others have) that you believe missiles could use a speed boost... which is my entire point. All we're doing now is executing thought experiments (which is fine, as it's keeping the thread bumped... so maybe the Devs will read it). The Cerb is a fine ship... the problem is the concept of 'sniping' with missiles that have a significant flight time. Fix flight time and you've fixed the Cerb. My crusade for faster missiles.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.17 02:22:00 - [135] Its not a bait and switch because the cerberus hits 95km range in its short range setup They have comparable damage with the cerb having more range. How in the world can you say i am baiting and switching when there was no switch. We started talking about short range setups and we ended talking about short range setups. I mean, you are aware that you do not have to refit your ship to change from tech 1 HAMs and jav HAMs right? Why would a cerb shoot jav hams? I dont know if it found itself 90km away from a target and had HAMS fitted? Its not like they cant fire from 50km either[6.4 seconds flight time]. That fight time is much lower than the time it would take a Zealot or anything else to get into range.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.17 02:50:00 - [136] Originally by: Goumindong Its not a bait and switch because the cerberus hits 95km range in its short range setup They have comparable damage with the cerb having more range. How in the world can you say i am baiting and switching when there was no switch. We started talking about short range setups and we ended talking about short range setups. I mean, you are aware that you do not have to refit your ship to change from tech 1 HAMs and jav HAMs right? Why would a cerb shoot jav hams? I dont know if it found itself 90km away from a target and had HAMS fitted? Its not like they cant fire from 50km either[6.4 seconds flight time]. That fight time is much lower than the time it would take a Zealot or anything else to get into range. More EVE on paper. Most Cerb pilots with HAMs equipped are not going to be hanging 90k from a gate. Most Cerb pilots with HAMs equipped are not going to warp in to a fight at 100k. According to your logic there is no reason for Heavy Missile launchers to exist. Every missile ship should simply use the highest DPS missile that they can from the longest range possible... nullifying the purpose for faster, longer-range missiles. Such nonsense can only be done on paper. It's not how PVP really works. Regardless, you can run these thought experiments all night and day. EVE on paper and EVE in-game are two very different things. My crusade for faster missiles.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.17 03:12:00 - [137] I have been 50km from someone when i wanted to engage enough times in a Harbinger to realize that i would really enjoy being able to hit up close and far away without refitting.
Katashi Ishizuka	Posted - 2007.08.17 05:33:00 - [138] Edited by: Katashi I**uka on 17/08/2007 05:41:10 Scenario: You're shooting an armor-tanked cruiser with base armor resists (at least, I hope I got it right on the spreadsheet). The cruiser is tackled by your friendly huginn pilot. The cruiser has 140m3 sig resolution and isn't travelling at any appreciable speed. Your sniper HACs are 100 kilometers out, coz that's the only warp-in point you have on the gate. I have the 4 sniper setup HACs on a graph. Make of it what you will. Cumulative Damage Graph With the release of the new +velocity rigs the Cerberus really isn't that bad. You'd have to be in a large gang to pop stuff in less than 20 seconds; flight time is missile flavor, otherwise it'd be just like turrets. You break even 14 seconds into the fight. With the hit point boost most stuff will last at least that long. And before anyone flames me about rigging a Cerb, yes, I went into EFT and got a Cerb rigged with the HMLs and rigs without fitting mods and LSE buffer.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.17 08:25:00 - [139] Originally by: Tovarishch Originally by: Aramendel So pulse zealots and AC muninns do "nearly" 7.9 km/s now? Firstly, this wasn't even the original scenario we discussed. We began discussing sniping when he then decided to bait and switch and compare a pulse Zealot to a Cerb with HAMs at 95k. He changed it to strengthen his argument. Regardless, read the entire thread and relevant posts. Those HAMs at that range will take appx. 12 seconds to reach their target... in that time a Zealot or Muninn fitted for short range can nearly reach their optimal using the proper ammo. They don't? Do the numbers, you are just telling fantasy stories here.
Arenis Xemdal Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.17 09:11:00 - [140] The Cerberus would have a greater purpose if CCP did not backpedal on the 6 launchers 2 turrets change when they were initially being play tested. The 7th turret and launcher on both Hurricane and Drake were overpowering, so they removed it, and later gave it back to the Drake. Ships are defined by their weaknesses, and people complain when they have ten different pimp ships that all do the same stuff. Heh.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.17 10:46:00 - [141] Originally by: Awox You never gave the maths to prove the DPS is castrated, you just make this claim. Castrated is a bit of an exaggeration so do the math. I'm gunna stop trying to argue, you're obviously right, and everyone arguing in favor of the Cerberus is completely wrong. To you write this as you alt tab from a boring fleet fight / POS engagement btw? cerb spaming missiles at 120k = 15 seconds missile flight time eagle at 120k = 0 sec hybrid flight time deimos at 10k = 0 sec flight time within this first 15 seconds the eagle can put out 2,5 dmg, the deimos 10k dmg while the cerb still waiting for his missiles to hit and doing 0 dmg so far... is that so hard to get?
John McCreedy Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.08.17 13:00:00 - [142] Originally by: Laboratus What drones did the domi use? Heavy drones are cruiser sized weapons (sig res 125m) and as such suffer no penalty when shooting cruiser sized targets (sig rad 125m). And what were the fits? A neut gank domi should do enough dps to punch through passive tanks. It had Ogres and once Drones where launched, it broke my tank however I tested the amount of damage I did against them and caluclated that I could kill the drones before they could kill my tank which would then boost faster than they where doing damage. Similary I also tested the tank on my Vulture against an Eagle, Blasterthron and Raven and easily tanked that damage and my Drake has bigger shields than my Vulture. Originally by: Almarez Very wrong. The Cerb has much better range. The problem is that missle boats aren't really good for sniping. Unless there are a bunch of tacklers holding down the target and if that's the case there really is no need to stay out at 150km. You claim I'm wrong then contradict yourself by reinforcing my point. All Missile ships suck at long range combat. Originally by: welsh wizard It could do with equalised speed & mass to the new deimos. You can't have missile ships going too fast though because the launchers don't have to track. Imagine a Crow that actually does enough damage to kill something... Problem is the Deimos (like the Sacrelige) still has a superior tank. Originally by: Katashi I**uka Why does Burn Eden use Ravens instead of railthrons? Because Caldari ships have the mids for EWAR, and when stuff is tackled 150km away it doesn't matter that there is lag in flight Caldari have the Rook for that. Same weapons load out as a Cerb but bonuses towards EW not Missiles. Rook is more useful than the Cerb as a result. To the rest of you, can we please keep on topic. This isn't about Caldari vs. Amarr, Minmatar or Gallente. It's about the futility of a long range Missile ship that uses its mid slots to tank (badly) vs. the versitility of a short range missile ship that uses its low slots to tank (well) freeing up its midslots to tackle, therefore giving greater DPS. It's about the Cerb being superceded by a T1 Missile boat. Anyone claiming that a Deimos is superceded by an Eos/Astarte needs to consider that a Deimos is still superior to a Brutix. A Deimos is along a natrual path of progression for a Gallente pilot who wants to go for an Eos/Astrate where as a Cerb being pushed towards a long range Missile sniper is not. The natural progression for a Caldari pilot is from a Caracal to a Drake to a Nighthawk. That's the difference. To those of you who have nothing better to say other than try to derail the thread by claims it's "just another moaning caldari pilot" should stay out unless you have something constructive to contribute. Facts are simple: 1. Missiles are short range weapon systems. 2. Sacrilege will tank better than a Cerb. 3. Sacrilege will have low mass than a Cerb. 4. Sacrilege will have tackling capability, something a Cerb does not. All I want is to open up a sensible discussion onto the proposed moved role of a Cerbrus to a mid to long range "sniper" ship, something that by the very nature of Missiles is a useless role that is exclusive to the realm of Turret users for a reason. I'll take a superior tank, Mass and tackling ability over range any day when it comes to Missiles because I can tackle, orbit faster than you thus lowering the damage I take and tank the rest of it. HACs make great solo ships with the exception of the Caldari. Problem is at least the Eagle mximises the niche it's been asked to fufill. The Cerb does not and will not. Amarr ships need change which the Khanid MK II project addresses. Problem is, so do Caldari. Please don't relegate them to a PvE only ship and give more thought to the role of a mid to long range sniper. A role better suited to Turrets. Make a Difference
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.17 13:17:00 - [143] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2007 13:21:17 Originally by: d026 cerb spaming missiles at 120k = 15 seconds missile flight time eagle at 120k = 0 sec hybrid flight time deimos at 10k = 0 sec flight time within this first 15 seconds the eagle can put out 2,5 dmg, the deimos 10k dmg while the cerb still waiting for his missiles to hit and doing 0 dmg so far... is that so hard to get? And now compare the dps of the eagle and cerb at 120k. Or, even better, look at this graph 3 posts above yours which you conveniently missed. That shouldn't be hard to get, but apparently it is..for you. Originally by: John McCreedy Anyone claiming that a Deimos is superceded by an Eos/Astarte needs to consider that a Deimos is still superior to a Brutix. No. Brutix both outdpses and outtanks it. The Deimos is faster and has an higher range, of cource, but the same is the case of the cerb vs drake.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.17 20:08:00 - [144] Edited by: welsh wizard on 17/08/2007 20:08:33 Just to point out to Wayward Hooligan, missile velocity has nothing at all to do with damage dealt. A torp travelling at 50,000m/s will only do the same damage as a torp going at 5,500m/s to an interceptor travelling at 5,000m/s. There isn't really a good reason for missiles travelling as slow as they do.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.17 20:29:00 - [145] Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2007 20:30:47 There is. Their range dps. Look at the spreadsheet above - the cerb outdamages all other HACs at 100k within 20 seconds. If you would increase missilespeed by the factor 10 this would happen in 2 seconds. There would be no point at all in using anything but missiles at range.
Lady Khanid Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.17 20:57:00 - [146] The point about the Cerb is that it can forfill a great variety of roles without altering setups in a fleet... Its just as happy sitting with the T2 Sniper Battleships at 180km as it is sitting at 30km with close support with the exact same setup. Your survivability is relatively high in both circumstances. You provide medium/high substained DPS at long range as well as providing fleet Sniper support at 20km against enemy tacklers, i Can assure you Interdictors absoloutely hate seeing a Cerb mixed in with a hostile sniper fleet. And yes the most effective use of the Cerb solo is the twin Phased Muon and 2 Sensor Dampener effect rigs along with Mwd/Scram and Cap Booster. RCU's are required. However since this role is somewhat unique i decided against mentioning it originally. The Cerb much like the Eagle is a specialised Fleet support ship, while the Eagle can Excel taking out small long-range targets, the Cerb has the ability to deal with those close and long range. Oh btw if you target an enemy Dictor/Cruiser/Even intie from 180km away very few will realise they are being targeted and fired upon until the first missle strikes (In Fleet ops with cluttered overviews). By that point you have sent a string of Missles in close succession to the target and its not as simple as it sounds for the target to warp out in a lagged enviroment. The Cerb does have a role i can assure you.
John McCreedy Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.08.17 21:27:00 - [147] Originally by: Lady Khanid You provide medium/high substained DPS at long range as well as providing fleet Sniper support at 20km against enemy tacklers, i Can assure you Interdictors absoloutely hate seeing a Cerb mixed in with a hostile sniper fleet. Which an Eagle or Munin or any other Turret ship does better. Originally by: Lady Khanid The Cerb much like the Eagle is a specialised Fleet support ship, while the Eagle can Excel taking out small long-range targets, the Cerb has the ability to deal with those close and long range. Cerb is nothing like an Eagle. In an Eagle I can and have popped Interceptors at 200kms. Can't do that in a Cerb. Even at 30km, the Eagle is far superior because any sensible Interceptor pilot who sees a volley of missiles headed his way is going to bail immediately. An Eagle's weapons (Rails or Blasters) hit instaneously. You may as well compare a Raven to a Rokh. The only thing they have in common is they're both Caldari Originally by: Lady Khanid Oh btw if you target an enemy Dictor/Cruiser/Even intie from 180km away very few will realise they are being targeted and fired upon until the first missle strikes (In Fleet ops with cluttered overviews). Have you any idea how long it would take a Missile to cover a 180km distance?! No inty pilot worth their salt would not know they where being targeted. If I wanted to sit 180km away in an Anti-support role I'd use an Eagle or Vulture, not a blasted Cereberus Originally by: Lady Khanid The Cerb does have a role i can assure you. As has been pointed out not only by myself but others, the role is moot due to the weapon system's ammo having a flight time. A Missile ship cannot fufil the role of a sniper. That's the exclusive realm of the Turret user (of which I am now due to the very reasons I've pointed out throughout this thead, having been previously a Cerb pilot). Make a Difference
0bi one	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:10:00 - [148] hi - must admit a damn good read :) just a simple question to the mathematical tech head out there ... what is the total damage that a drake can inflict with a full cargo of heavies. against a cerb . dosnt a drak have a much smaller cargo hold? just a question thats popped into my tad slow alcohol sopped grey matter. many thanks in advance 0bi
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.18 01:18:00 - [149] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2007 20:30:47 There is. Their range dps. Look at the spreadsheet above - the cerb outdamages all other HACs at 100k within 20 seconds. If you would increase missilespeed by the factor 10 this would happen in 2 seconds. There would be no point at all in using anything but missiles at range. if the gang is large enough missiles suck. if the gang is mainly closerange missiles suck to. so if you want to get your dps fly with a sniper gang consisting of 5 peeps?
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.18 01:48:00 - [150] Edited by: Aramendel on 18/08/2007 01:51:17 If the gang is shortrange you can fit HAMs and still be rather competative with other HACs. And, no, in a large longrange gang where your targets die within 20 seconds it is worse than turrets. For anything which lasts longer however it is BETTER. What do you expect - that it is superior always? Also, as a sidenote: HAM flight time got boosted on sisi - a cerb can rech now with its shortrange weapon system 185k.

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