Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Long range missile spam.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Cerberus is a bit more mobile than the others.

Erm.

That's about it actually.

Actually, it's not a bad HAM platform, where the Drake and Nighthawk can't really, because of their abysmal range. But otherwise, it falls into the faction ship category of 'vaguely nice, but other ships do it better'.

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Originally by: Darpz

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drake doesn't have bonus to velocity so can't shoot as far as a cerb

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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My point here is that the Cerb does nothing the other ships can do better. Therefore, what's the point in training

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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/using a Cerb?

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Cerberus is a bit more mobile than the others.

Erm.

That's about it actually.

Actually, it's not a bad HAM platform, where the Drake and Nighthawk can't really, because of their abysmal range. But otherwise, it falls into the faction ship category of 'vaguely nice, but other ships do it better'.

---

Aye at the moment but check the dev blog. A Sacrliege will have less mass. Less mass on top of better tank and better DPS.

Originally by: Darpz

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drake doesn't have bonus to velocity so can't shoot as far as a cerb

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Who cares when you've the shield to get in range or can warp on top of them?

My point here is that the Cerb does nothing the other ships can do better. Therefore, what's the point in training/using a Cerb?

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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My point here is that the Cerb does nothing the other ships can do better. Therefore, what's the point in training

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Prerequisites for HACs help with all other ships. Only kill you might not find worthy is caldari cruiser lvl5 - but it also unlocks eagle, is prereq for commands, unlocks logistic ships.

Originally by: John McCreedy

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/using a Cerb?

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Roaming gangs. Fleet anti support (if your gunnery sucks and you cant use eagle, cerb is much better than drake thx to way longer missile range/speed).

Otherwise you could also say, whats the point of:
1. ishtar (domi does it better)
2. zealot (harbinger? geddon?)
3. vaga (snake machariels are insanely good, for less iskies you can het hurricane).
etc.

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Originally by: CCP Oveur

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The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Long range missile spam.

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.

---

Fleet engagements have quickly become the status quo of PVP in EVE... life in 0.0 demands it. If you think I'm out of touch with current PVP dynamics... you'd be wrong.

Yes, small wandering gangs still exist... and small scale PVP still happens. However, please explain why you'd prefer to have a Cerb with a small wandering gang versus an Ishtar, Vagabond, or a handful of other cruiser sized ships? Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

---

Quote:

---

Originally by: Tovarishch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally by: Lisento Slaven
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Fleet engagements have quickly become the status quo of PVP in EVE... life in 0.0 demands it. If you think I'm out of touch with current PVP dynamics... you'd be wrong.

Yes, small wandering gangs still exist... and small scale PVP still happens. However, please explain why you'd prefer to have a Cerb with a small wandering gang versus an Ishtar, Vagabond, or a handful of other cruiser sized ships? Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If you want to use the "prefer" argument to say the cerb is pointless then you can use that against *any* ship in EVE...there's always a reason to prefer something else over the other.

Why would you prefer an Ishtar over a Rook when you want ECM? Why would you prefer a Rook over an Armageddon when you want pwn lasers of death?

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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Quote:

---

Originally by: Tovarishch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally by: Lisento Slaven
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Fleet engagements have quickly become the status quo of PVP in EVE... life in 0.0 demands it. If you think I'm out of touch with current PVP dynamics... you'd be wrong.

Yes, small wandering gangs still exist... and small scale PVP still happens. However, please explain why you'd prefer to have a Cerb with a small wandering gang versus an Ishtar, Vagabond, or a handful of other cruiser sized ships? Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If you want to use the "prefer" argument to say the cerb is pointless then you can use that against *any* ship in EVE...there's always a reason to prefer something else over the other.

Why would you prefer an Ishtar over a Rook when you want ECM? Why would you prefer a Rook over an Armageddon when you want pwn lasers of death?

---

I would prefer a t1 frigat in my gang that can tackle to a cerb... Cerb is a piece of crap, it has no place in pvp. Damage sucks, mobility sucks, ewar sucks, tank sucks. What the hell is the point of it?

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Originally by: "QproQ"

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When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Long range missile spam.

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a. Long range missile spam is useless in PVP... as the target will be vaportized or gone by the time the missiles hit...

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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The drake does not outperform the Cerberus as a long range missile spammer.

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Originally by: Deva Blackfire

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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My point here is that the Cerb does nothing the other ships can do better. Therefore, what's the point in training

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Prerequisites for HACs help with all other ships. Only kill you might not find worthy is caldari cruiser lvl5 - but it also unlocks eagle, is prereq for commands, unlocks logistic ships.

1

Originally by: John McCreedy

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/using a Cerb?

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Roaming gangs. Fleet anti support (if your gunnery sucks and you cant use eagle, cerb is much better than drake thx to way longer missile range/speed).

Otherwise you could also say, whats the point of:
1. ishtar (domi does it better)
2. zealot (harbinger? geddon?)
3. vaga (snake machariels are insanely good, for less iskies you can het hurricane).
etc.

---

Originally by: Lady Khanid

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Anti Frig

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Photon Scattering Field II

Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II

---

Quote:

---

"Guns are fine, boost players"

---

Quote:

---

"Players are fine, boost guns"

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.

---

Fleet engagements have quickly become the status quo of PVP in EVE... life in 0.0 demands it. If you think I'm out of touch with current PVP dynamics... you'd be wrong.

Yes, small wandering gangs still exist... and small scale PVP still happens. However, please explain why you'd prefer to have a Cerb with a small wandering gang versus an Ishtar, Vagabond, or a handful of other cruiser sized ships? Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

---

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Originally by: Lisento Slaven

---

Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.

---

Fleet engagements have quickly become the status quo of PVP in EVE... life in 0.0 demands it. If you think I'm out of touch with current PVP dynamics... you'd be wrong.

Yes, small wandering gangs still exist... and small scale PVP still happens. However, please explain why you'd prefer to have a Cerb with a small wandering gang versus an Ishtar, Vagabond, or a handful of other cruiser sized ships? Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

---

We specialize in small gang (30ish) roaming pvp squads.

Cerb is > Vaga in gangs of this size. It's missiles can cover the entire scope of the engagement while keeping the cerb at a safe distance.

A Vaga will have to go within what 25km of its target to do anything at all. At that distance a decent gang's Huginn will web the **** out of it and the Vaga will get 1 vollied by 20 ships.

Drones suck ass as gang size increases. Their flight time is even longer than the flight time of missiles and if you leave em behind you've lost isk and after a couple rounds you are useless.

In small fast moving gangs a cerb can fit ewar and either long range heavy missiles or assaults /w precision as mentioned along with ewar and *****tacklers.

Its a good ship you just need to think outside the box a bit.

Don't tank it. Gank + ewar like all Caldari gang ships should be minus command ships.

---

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Originally by: Lisento Slaven

---

Long range missile spam is not useless in PVP because targets are not vaporized before the missiles get there.

Fleet fight does not equal the only kind of fighting in EVE. Frig/Interceptor + Cerb can be fun.

---

Fleet engagements have quickly become the status quo of PVP in EVE... life in 0.0 demands it. If you think I'm out of touch with current PVP dynamics... you'd be wrong.

Yes, small wandering gangs still exist... and small scale PVP still happens. However, please explain why you'd prefer to have a Cerb with a small wandering gang versus an Ishtar, Vagabond, or a handful of other cruiser sized ships? Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

---

We specialize in small gang (30ish) roaming pvp squads.

Cerb is > Vaga in gangs of this size. It's missiles can cover the entire scope of the engagement while keeping the cerb at a safe distance.

A Vaga will have to go within what 25km of its target to do anything at all. At that distance a decent gang's Huginn will web the **** out of it and the Vaga will get 1 vollied by 20 ships.

Drones suck ass as gang size increases. Their flight time is even longer than the flight time of missiles and if you leave em behind you've lost isk and after a couple rounds you are useless.

In small fast moving gangs a cerb can fit ewar and either long range heavy missiles or assaults /w precision as mentioned along with ewar and *****tacklers.

Its a good ship you just need to think outside the box a bit.

Don't tank it. Gank + ewar like all Caldari gang ships should be minus command ships.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

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[...] Once again, the Cerb is a novelty ship that serves a very, very small niche that most any other ship can do twice as well.

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Originally by: Amarr knight

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30 man gang is not SMALL.

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Quote:

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"Guns are fine, boost players"

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Quote:

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"Players are fine, boost guns"

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Originally by: Hectaire Glade

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I have mixed feelings about the Cerb these days, its still a great 'annoyance' missile ship, orbit out around 90K mark you'll still be landing your [very limited] damage, and if you keep your eyes open you wont die very often.

It does lack a bit of punch though, and unless you have someone in close tackling for you that range advantage is going to be easily undone by your target warping off.

Fits its roll very well, just needs a little boost on the damage. imho.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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We specialize in small gang (30ish) roaming pvp squads.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Cerb is > Vaga in gangs of this size. It's missiles can cover the entire scope of the engagement while keeping the cerb at a safe distance.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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A Vaga will have to go within what 25km of its target to do anything at all. At that distance a decent gang's Huginn will web the **** out of it and the Vaga will get 1 vollied by 20 ships.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Drones suck ass as gang size increases.

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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In small fast moving gangs a cerb can fit ewar and either long range heavy missiles or assaults /w precision as mentioned along with ewar and *****tacklers.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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First this isn't a moan because I don't even fly them these days. With the onset of Battlecruisers, Command Ships and now Khanid MK. 2, what is the point of a Cerberus these days? A Drake and a Nighthawk have a superior tank and greater DPS potential than a Cerberus. Sure they're slow but with the size of some of these ships tanks, who cares? A Sacrilege, once the changes go through, will have superior speed, lower mass therefore greater manuverability and potentially a greater tank and with Assualt Missiles it will definately have better DPS.

One might argue that the changes will allow a Cerberus to outrange a Sacrelige but a Drake and Nighthawk will have the same range and a Drake is easier to train for since you don't need Caldari Cruiser V (only III) like you do for a Cerberus. I don't think the same argument can be applied to the Nighthawk because a Damnation will have one less Launcher slot so at least on paper, the Nighthawk should still do greater DPS. Unfortunately, a Cerberus won't due to the aforementioned reasons.

So my question is, why would anyone want to use a Ceberus these days?

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Originally by: "QproQ"

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When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"

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Originally by: Hannobaal

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Long range missile spam.

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a. Long range missile spam is useless in PVP... as the target will be vaportized or gone by the time the missiles hit...

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Yes, provided the missile ships are firing at the primary along with the rest of them, but there's nothing that says they have to.

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Originally by: ElCholo

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Nighthawk / Drake do NOT get the missile range bonus of Cerberus.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: ElCholo

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Nighthawk / Drake do NOT get the missile range bonus of Cerberus.

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Please read what I've said. With the superior tanks on a Nighthawk/Drake coupled with warp to zero/Cov Ops/Recons you do not need a range bonus. Solo in an Eagle, I can at least harass targets. Solo in a Cerb, I'm wasting ammo because my target warps out. Similary, once the changes go through, since I'm armor tanking in a Sacrelige, I can use my Mid slots for tackling modules therefore I'm going to make better use of my missiles. I don't want a range bonus because I can't tackle at range therefore given the nature of missiles, it's a useless bonus. Why not change that bonus to a Warp disruption distance bonus if you want it to be a mid-range missile spammer. At least then it'd fufil its intended role better than it does now.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: ElCholo

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Nighthawk / Drake do NOT get the missile range bonus of Cerberus.

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Please read what I've said. With the superior tanks on a Nighthawk/Drake coupled with warp to zero/Cov Ops/Recons you do not need a range bonus. Solo in an Eagle, I can at least harass targets. Solo in a Cerb, I'm wasting ammo because my target warps out. Similary, once the changes go through, since I'm armor tanking in a Sacrelige, I can use my Mid slots for tackling modules therefore I'm going to make better use of my missiles. I don't want a range bonus because I can't tackle at range therefore given the nature of missiles, it's a useless bonus. Why not change that bonus to a Warp disruption distance bonus if you want it to be a mid-range missile spammer. At least then it'd fufil its intended role better than it does now.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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That pretty much sums it up. However, the problem is a range bonus on a ship that uses a weapons system with a 'flight time'. What good are missiles from 50k+ out when they travel slowly. Guided missiles are already on the low end of DPS when compared to most weapon systems. Add to that fact that missiles do 0 DPS till they hit the target and the Cerb as a 'long range cruiser' is nowhere near as useful as other ships in the same role. Give me a Deimos, Muninn, Eagle or other cruiser instead please.

And assuming you want to simply throw missiles away from a distance... just use a Caracal. It has a drone bay and two turret hardpoints more than the Cerb... and costs a fraction of the price.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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That pretty much sums it up. However, the problem is a range bonus on a ship that uses a weapons system with a 'flight time'. What good are missiles from 50k+ out when they travel slowly. Guided missiles are already on the low end of DPS when compared to most weapon systems. Add to that fact that missiles do 0 DPS till they hit the target and the Cerb as a 'long range cruiser' is nowhere near as useful as other ships in the same role. Give me a Deimos, Muninn, Eagle or other cruiser instead please.

And assuming you want to simply throw missiles away from a distance... just use a Caracal. It has a drone bay and two turret hardpoints more than the Cerb... and costs a fraction of the price.

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Exactly, thank you. Missiles never have been a viable weapon system at mid to long range so it's always been used at close range and will continue to do so only now, at close range, the Sacrelige, Drake and Nighthawk are superior therefore the Cerb needs a rethink on what role it plays because a "long range Missile spammer" isn't a role. It is, like the above posted points out, a waste of ammo.

Yes it can pop frigs but so can a Harpy for a tenth of the cost. Sure it can do level 3 missions faster than a Drake or Nighthawk but are we saying the Cerb should be relegated to a PvE only ship?

Get rid of the range bonus which is useless and give it something useful.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Long range missile spam.

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Which a Drake or Nighthawk does better and where a Drake does it not only better but for less training time and less money.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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First this isn't a moan because I don't even fly them these days. With the onset of Battlecruisers, Command Ships and now Khanid MK. 2, what is the point of a Cerberus these days? A Drake and a Nighthawk have a superior tank and greater DPS potential than a Cerberus. Sure they're slow but with the size of some of these ships tanks, who cares? A Sacrilege, once the changes go through, will have superior speed, lower mass therefore greater manuverability and potentially a greater tank and with Assualt Missiles it will definately have better DPS.

One might argue that the changes will allow a Cerberus to outrange a Sacrelige but a Drake and Nighthawk will have the same range and a Drake is easier to train for since you don't need Caldari Cruiser V (only III) like you do for a Cerberus. I don't think the same argument can be applied to the Nighthawk because a Damnation will have one less Launcher slot so at least on paper, the Nighthawk should still do greater DPS. Unfortunately, a Cerberus won't due to the aforementioned reasons.

So my question is, why would anyone want to use a Ceberus these days?

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Originally by: Tovarishch
To be honest, I'm quite happy with the concept of long-range missile platforms. What is ridiculous is the fact that ships such as the Cerberus are in every way designed to throw missiles from range... while missiles themselves travel very slowly. A ranged missile ship (or any missile ship, in reality) is doing 0 DPS till it's missiles impact the target.

Therefore, a Cerb fulfilling its role and making the best use of its bonuses is designed to do 0 DPS for approximately the first 10 seconds of the fight. And even then... the fastest missiles are still at the low end of the spectrum when compared to other weapon systems.

The problem isn't the ship, or it's bonuses... the problem is missile flight time. Period.
[/quote

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I know it's fufilling it's role. The point is the role is useless. Mid to long range missile spam is useless and yes, because of missile flightime, insofar as the fact it has a flight time. It's the age old argument but the problem is it's being pushed towards a role that is the most useless role in the game. It's a similar situation to the Rokh. It's been pushed towards the role of extreme sniper yet you can happily shoot further than you can target. Difference there though is you have the flexibility to use take advantage of your range bonus by employing a variety of tactics (Blaster Rokh or Short range Ammo or T1 guns at T2 ranges etc.)

Due to the nature of Missiles you lack that flexiblity so forcing the Cerb to go long range simply limits it to a niche tactic that can be employed by other ships in a far superior nature (Munin, Eagle etc.). Khanid II brings with it a change that allows a ship to truly take potential of a Missiles strength, i.e. the ability to inflict all damage types at short range and by it being an Armour tanker, allows for it to further enhance that strength by tackling your oponent. Why would I use a missile boat where my DPS is lower and my oponent can make me waste ammo and escape when, for the sake of 20 days training, I can use a missile boat that has higher DPS and can prevent my enemy from escaping?

I know the pros and cons of a Cerb because I do have extensive PvP expereince in them but I gave them up because otherships take advantage of their bonuses to a far greater extent than the Cerberus does. And therein lies the crux of my argument - because of the nature of its weapon system, it fails to utilise one of its bonuses in any situation beyond PvE. I wasn't suggesting give it a 50km Scram range but how about giving it the same distance as an Arazu where at least combined with its speed, it can be a viable mid-range Missile spammer.





Make a Difference

Originally by: Liang Nuren

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If gangs of 30 are small, I need to quit eve. WTF.

Liang

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Originally by: Lady Khanid

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Long Range (180km)

Signal Amplifier II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Reactor Control Unit II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Sensor Booster II
Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II
Heavy Missile Launcher II

Short range Sub 70km

Reactor Control Unit II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Reactor Control Unit II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II
Small Diminishing Power System Drain I

Anti Frig

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Photon Scattering Field II

Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II
Assault Missile Launcher II


The above works for me...I especially like the issle spamage Anti Frig setup in Gangs and defence for Sniper fleets, or gate camps.

However i admit i have every missle skill maxed at level 5 except HAM spec 5 (4) and Heavy missle Spec 5 (Also 4). Also i have Level 5 Hac so i do get almost 100% out of the performance of the Cerb.

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Originally by: Delnas

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Why do you need speed when you have really long range & high speed missiles?

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Originally by: Laboratus

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The drake might be bigger, better and meaner, but it also takes more damage, that the cerbie can avoid by being smaller. This means it doesn't need to tank quite as much and enables it to solo lvl 4 missions. My corp mate used to solo 8/10 plexes in a cerbie back in the day, don't know if is still possible, though...

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: Laboratus

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The drake might be bigger, better and meaner, but it also takes more damage, that the cerbie can avoid by being smaller. This means it doesn't need to tank quite as much and enables it to solo lvl 4 missions. My corp mate used to solo 8/10 plexes in a cerbie back in the day, don't know if is still possible, though...

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I tested a passive tanked Drake last night against a Dominix and a Raven and it easily tanked their damage output. Even with their reduced Sig radius a Cerb could not tank that level of damage.

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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What's the stats on a cerberus with HAM's using t1 and t2 ammo (range and damage if anyone knows them)?

What are the stats on the Sacrilege with HAM's using t1 and t2 ammo (range and damage)?

I've seen some people say the cerb gets 30km range with HAM's but not sure what ammo type and what the dps of the cerb will be compared to the Sacrilege using ham's of different types.

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Long range missile spam.

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Which a Drake or Nighthawk does better and where a Drake does it not only better but for less training time and less money.

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Originally by: Almarez

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

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Long range missile spam.

---

Which a Drake or Nighthawk does better and where a Drake does it not only better but for less training time and less money.

---

Very wrong. The Cerb has much better range. The problem is that missle boats aren't really good for sniping. Unless there are a bunch of tacklers holding down the target and if that's the case there really is no need to stay out at 150km.

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Originally by: James Lyrus

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Both Cerb and Sac get ROF and Damage - although the Sac gets it on all missile types, the cerb gets it on kinetic HAMS _and_ Heavy missiles.

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Originally by: Ryysa

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No idea if anyone mentioned this, but.

Nanoed up cerb with ham's is fairly scary.

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Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Originally by: Ryysa

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No idea if anyone mentioned this, but.

Nanoed up cerb with ham's is fairly scary.

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I'm still waiting to see the math of anyone who knows the damage and range a cerb can do with a full rack of HAM's using both forms of T2 and the T1. and all skills to 5.

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Originally by: d026

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Edited by: d026 on 15/08/2007 22:56:53

Originally by: Lisento Slaven

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Originally by: Ryysa

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No idea if anyone mentioned this, but.

Nanoed up cerb with ham's is fairly scary.

---

I'm still waiting to see the math of anyone who knows the damage and range a cerb can do with a full rack of HAM's using both forms of T2 and the T1. and all skills to 5.

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546 dps up to 20k with TII rage
387 dps up to 95k with TII javelin
546 dps up to 23k with dread guristas
523 dps up to 23k with cn
455 dps up to 23k with t1

setup is with 3 x bcu, tp, bayloading and warhead rigs. all skills lvl V. just as a comparison.. deimos can dish out 658dps @ 18k or 812 dps at 12k + is faster than you and probably doesent have much weaker tank:)

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Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Also, keep in mind, that calculated DPS is assuming no flight time on the missiles... which is, as we all know, not the case.

---

Originally by: Lisento Slaven

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Also, keep in mind, that calculated DPS is assuming no flight time on the missiles... which is, as we all know, not the case.

---

There's no other way to calculate DPS because not all shots with guns hit in the game either and yada yada all other crap that is involved.

The ship looks fine as a close up HAM ship fitted to do damage. Not to mention it's awesome at long range missile fights. If I had caldari cruiser 5 I would fly a HAM cerb. This is also considering that I have amarr cruiser 5, minmatar cruiser 5, and BC 5.

Last argument I saw was that the Cerberus' role is pointless (long range missile spam). In my opinion its role as long range missile spam in the form of either T2 heavy or HAM's is both fine. Bringing other ships into the argument doesn't help anyones side because you can say "Well why not use X instead of Y" in almost every argument like that. Cerberus looks like a preference ship...if you like missiles and like shooting them far, fast, and with a good amount of explosions, it's cool.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

1. Explain how long-range missile spam is in any way preferable to a sniping turret ship of equivalent class that provides superior DPS that is instantaneous?

2. If #1 is true why not use a Caracal when it has two more turret hardpoints and a drone bay... and costs magnitudes less?

3. Explain how the Cerberus is preferable up close to a ship built for close-range combat (less massive, faster, more agile, more DPS, more flexibility in roles)?

Edit - these are not rhetorical questions. I'm Caldari specialized since my first day in the game, have flown the Cerb for ages, and would love to find some answers to these questions.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/08/2007 23:46:55

Originally by: Lisento Slaven

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Also, keep in mind, that calculated DPS is assuming no flight time on the missiles... which is, as we all know, not the case.

---

There's no other way to calculate DPS because not all shots with guns hit in the game either and yada yada all other crap that is involved.

The ship looks fine as a close up HAM ship fitted to do damage. Not to mention it's awesome at long range missile fights. If I had caldari cruiser 5 I would fly a HAM cerb. This is also considering that I have amarr cruiser 5, minmatar cruiser 5, and BC 5.

Last argument I saw was that the Cerberus' role is pointless (long range missile spam). In my opinion its role as long range missile spam in the form of either T2 heavy or HAM's is both fine. Bringing other ships into the argument doesn't help anyones side because you can say "Well why not use X instead of Y" in almost every argument like that. Cerberus looks like a preference ship...if you like missiles and like shooting them far, fast, and with a good amount of explosions, it's cool.

---

1. Explain how long-range missile spam is in any way preferable to a sniping turret ship of equivalent class that provides superior DPS that is instantaneous?

2. If #1 is true why not use a Caracal when it has two more turret hardpoints and a drone bay... and costs magnitudes less?

3. Explain how the Cerberus is preferable up close to a ship built for close-range combat (less massive, faster, more agile, more DPS, more flexibility in roles)?

---
Edit - these are not rhetorical questions. I'm Caldari specialized since my first day in the game, have flown the Cerb for ages, and would love to find some answers to these questions.

Also, just because it's difficult (not impossible) to calculate the general effect of missile flight time on DPS does not mean it's irrelevant. Long-range missile sniping gets its DPS utterly castrated by flight time. Assuming you even manage to land one missile... which is rare.

---

Originally by: Awox

---

People who think cerb is pointless: people who rarely fight in small squads (MC, SMASH, RK)
People who think cerb has a role: people who fight in small squads

Reasons a Cerb is better than a Drake for PvP:
+ you don't look like a cheap git
+ your missiles go fast enough to hit nanoboats
+ you can provide anti-tackler support for a sniper group, and still deal damage at the same range they do
+ it has a nice skin
+ it aligns much faster

When you fly in an organization that doesn't just outnumber 4:1 to defeat targets these things are important.

To the MC guy that complained his missiles never hit primaries: perhaps you should have fired at support or 1-2 targets down the list instead.

---

Originally by: Katashi I****uka

---

Why does Burn Eden use Ravens instead of railthrons?

---

• HAC Resistences


• Higher base hitpoints


• Gets an ROF bonus


• 50% range bonus


• 4 Lowslots is generous for a Caldari ship, meaning it can fit many damage mods, or even be 'nanoed'


• Has enough CPU and Powergrid to fit all kinds of fits quite easily


• Smaller sig than a Battlecruiser

• Slower than all other HACs


• Massive EM Gap in shield resistences (0%) means a compulsory EM hardner so effectively the Cerb loses 1 mid slot and 44 CPU before you start


• Large sig compared to other HACs


• Delayed DPS means the cerb pilot needs a dedicated tackler aside from the primary etc.


• Warp to Zero has nerfed mid-range ships for roaming pvp, so we are left with close-range (roaming) and ultra long range (camp/defense) being preferable

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/08/2007 23:46:55

Originally by: Lisento Slaven

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Also, keep in mind, that calculated DPS is assuming no flight time on the missiles... which is, as we all know, not the case.

---

There's no other way to calculate DPS because not all shots with guns hit in the game either and yada yada all other crap that is involved.

The ship looks fine as a close up HAM ship fitted to do damage. Not to mention it's awesome at long range missile fights. If I had caldari cruiser 5 I would fly a HAM cerb. This is also considering that I have amarr cruiser 5, minmatar cruiser 5, and BC 5.

Last argument I saw was that the Cerberus' role is pointless (long range missile spam). In my opinion its role as long range missile spam in the form of either T2 heavy or HAM's is both fine. Bringing other ships into the argument doesn't help anyones side because you can say "Well why not use X instead of Y" in almost every argument like that. Cerberus looks like a preference ship...if you like missiles and like shooting them far, fast, and with a good amount of explosions, it's cool.

---

1. Explain how long-range missile spam is in any way preferable to a sniping turret ship of equivalent class that provides superior DPS that is instantaneous?

2. If #1 is true why not use a Caracal when it has two more turret hardpoints and a drone bay... and costs magnitudes less?

3. Explain how the Cerberus is preferable up close to a ship built for close-range combat (less massive, faster, more agile, more DPS, more flexibility in roles)?

---
Edit - these are not rhetorical questions. I'm Caldari specialized since my first day in the game, have flown the Cerb for ages, and would love to find some answers to these questions.

Also, just because it's difficult (not impossible) to calculate the general effect of missile flight time on DPS does not mean it's irrelevant. Long-range missile sniping gets its DPS utterly castrated by flight time. Assuming you even manage to land one missile... which is rare.

---

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/08/2007 23:46:55

Originally by: Lisento Slaven

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Also, keep in mind, that calculated DPS is assuming no flight time on the missiles... which is, as we all know, not the case.

---

There's no other way to calculate DPS because not all shots with guns hit in the game either and yada yada all other crap that is involved.

The ship looks fine as a close up HAM ship fitted to do damage. Not to mention it's awesome at long range missile fights. If I had caldari cruiser 5 I would fly a HAM cerb. This is also considering that I have amarr cruiser 5, minmatar cruiser 5, and BC 5.

Last argument I saw was that the Cerberus' role is pointless (long range missile spam). In my opinion its role as long range missile spam in the form of either T2 heavy or HAM's is both fine. Bringing other ships into the argument doesn't help anyones side because you can say "Well why not use X instead of Y" in almost every argument like that. Cerberus looks like a preference ship...if you like missiles and like shooting them far, fast, and with a good amount of explosions, it's cool.

---

1. Explain how long-range missile spam is in any way preferable to a sniping turret ship of equivalent class that provides superior DPS that is instantaneous?

2. If #1 is true why not use a Caracal when it has two more turret hardpoints and a drone bay... and costs magnitudes less?

3. Explain how the Cerberus is preferable up close to a ship built for close-range combat (less massive, faster, more agile, more DPS, more flexibility in roles)?

---
Edit - these are not rhetorical questions. I'm Caldari specialized since my first day in the game, have flown the Cerb for ages, and would love to find some answers to these questions.

Also, just because it's difficult (not impossible) to calculate the general effect of missile flight time on DPS does not mean it's irrelevant. Long-range missile sniping gets its DPS utterly castrated by flight time. Assuming you even manage to land one missile... which is rare.

---

What is the max range a Cerb can hit out to?

How many other cruiser / BC class ships can put dps out to that range while ignoring tracking?

I agree that missile flight time leaves something to be desired but if I am not mistaken a Cerb can hit targets that are far the hell away.

What can a Zealot hit out to? 110km max? I'd have to double check with our cerb pilots but I'm pretty sure they can hit farther than that.

What is dps of a Zealot at 110km? What is dps of a Cerb @ 110km?

What is dps of an Eagle at 110km? What is dps of a Cerb @ 110km?

What is dps of a Muninn at 110km? What is dps of a Cerb @ 110km?

Now increase all of those ranges to the max range of a Cerb and redo the math.

I don't know the answer as I don't fly all of those ships but I'm guessing the Cerb does well in some of those spots.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Originally by: Katashi I****uka

---

Why does Burn Eden use Ravens instead of railthrons?

---

What, precisely, do Ravens running sensor damps in their mids using precision torps have to do with balancing the Cerb as a long-range missile platform?

I'll also direct you to my post #81 in this thread... as I'm curious as to how others will answer those questions.

---

Originally by: d026

---

Edited by: d026 on 16/08/2007 09:26:07

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/08/2007 23:46:55

Originally by: Lisento Slaven

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Also, keep in mind, that calculated DPS is assuming no flight time on the missiles... which is, as we all know, not the case.

---

There's no other way to calculate DPS because not all shots with guns hit in the game either and yada yada all other crap that is involved.

The ship looks fine as a close up HAM ship fitted to do damage. Not to mention it's awesome at long range missile fights. If I had caldari cruiser 5 I would fly a HAM cerb. This is also considering that I have amarr cruiser 5, minmatar cruiser 5, and BC 5.

Last argument I saw was that the Cerberus' role is pointless (long range missile spam). In my opinion its role as long range missile spam in the form of either T2 heavy or HAM's is both fine. Bringing other ships into the argument doesn't help anyones side because you can say "Well why not use X instead of Y" in almost every argument like that. Cerberus looks like a preference ship...if you like missiles and like shooting them far, fast, and with a good amount of explosions, it's cool.

---

1. Explain how long-range missile spam is in any way preferable to a sniping turret ship of equivalent class that provides superior DPS that is instantaneous?

2. If #1 is true why not use a Caracal when it has two more turret hardpoints and a drone bay... and costs magnitudes less?

3. Explain how the Cerberus is preferable up close to a ship built for close-range combat (less massive, faster, more agile, more DPS, more flexibility in roles)?

---
Edit - these are not rhetorical questions. I'm Caldari specialized since my first day in the game, have flown the Cerb for ages, and would love to find some answers to these questions.

Also, just because it's difficult (not impossible) to calculate the general effect of missile flight time on DPS does not mean it's irrelevant. Long-range missile sniping gets its DPS utterly castrated by flight time. Assuming you even manage to land one missile... which is rare.

---

What is the max range a Cerb can hit out to?

How many other cruiser / BC class ships can put dps out to that range while ignoring tracking?

I agree that missile flight time leaves something to be desired but if I am not mistaken a Cerb can hit targets that are far the hell away.

What can a Zealot hit out to? 110km max? I'd have to double check with our cerb pilots but I'm pretty sure they can hit farther than that.

What is dps of a Zealot at 110km? What is dps of a Cerb @ 110km?

What is dps of an Eagle at 110km? What is dps of a Cerb @ 110km?

What is dps of a Muninn at 110km? What is dps of a Cerb @ 110km?

Now increase all of those ranges to the max range of a Cerb and redo the math.

I don't know the answer as I don't fly all of those ships but I'm guessing the Cerb does well in some of those spots.

---

cerb can do 417 dps @ 127k with all lvl V skills.
but if we take 15 seconds missile flight time into account
a eagle would have done 2595 damage when the first volley from the cerb hits for 1921 dmg. after another cycle the eagle would have done 4496 damage when the 2nd volley from the cerb hits the target for 1921 dmg (3842 dmg combined)...

so even tough the cerb does more dps than the eagle on paper (by far more dps) in a quick engagement the eagle (who is not known for its dps) outdamages the cerb at even farther range (129k). you would have to maintain a steady stream of missiles for a couple more volleys to compenaste for the flightime dps loss. but most engagements with lets say 10 snipers in gang wont last long enough.. it gets even worse if you got some blaster boats with you.. then you probably not even get 1 volley trough at this range:)

---

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

---

What about the Muninn and Zealot?

Can they dps well @ 125km? I doubt it

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Secondly, the Muninn does very well at 110k... and does far better up close as well... which grants it quite a bit of flexibility in roles and setups. Not to mention it's getting a boost.

The Zealot isn't designed as a sniper. Why compare it to sniping ships? The Zealot entirely outclasses the Cerb up close and at mid-range.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Secondly, the Muninn does very well at 110k... and does far better up close as well... which grants it quite a bit of flexibility in roles and setups. Not to mention it's getting a boost.

The Zealot isn't designed as a sniper. Why compare it to sniping ships? The Zealot entirely outclasses the Cerb up close and at mid-range.

---

Actually the sniper performance of the muninn and zealot is pretty much the same. The muninn has a bit of an edge due to its falloff (and does not cap out from its weapons), but thats about it.

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Secondly, the Muninn does very well at 110k... and does far better up close as well... which grants it quite a bit of flexibility in roles and setups. Not to mention it's getting a boost.

The Zealot isn't designed as a sniper. Why compare it to sniping ships? The Zealot entirely outclasses the Cerb up close and at mid-range.

---

Actually the sniper performance of the muninn and zealot is pretty much the same. The muninn has a bit of an edge due to its falloff (and does not cap out from its weapons), but thats about it.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Originally by: Aramendel

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Secondly, the Muninn does very well at 110k... and does far better up close as well... which grants it quite a bit of flexibility in roles and setups. Not to mention it's getting a boost.

The Zealot isn't designed as a sniper. Why compare it to sniping ships? The Zealot entirely outclasses the Cerb up close and at mid-range.

---

Actually the sniper performance of the muninn and zealot is pretty much the same. The muninn has a bit of an edge due to its falloff (and does not cap out from its weapons), but thats about it.

---

True, but the Muninn, if I recall properly, does not have to sacrifice near as much as the Zealot to operate effectively at such ranges. Granted, it's been a while since I've flown my Minmatar alt.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

The Zealot isn't designed as a sniper. Why compare it to sniping ships? The Zealot entirely outclasses the Cerb up close and at mid-range.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

It actualy sacrifices more. The Zealot has an extra slot compared to the Muninn[assuming sisi changes goes in, otherwise its two].

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

The Zealot isn't designed as a sniper. Why compare it to sniping ships? The Zealot entirely outclasses the Cerb up close and at mid-range.

---

Zealot DPS, Heavy Pulse II, Amarr navy MF M: 454 DPS.

Range: 10km

Zealot DPS, Heavy Pulse II, Scorch M: 363 DPS.

Range: 30km

Cerberus DPS

HAM, Caldari Navy Terror Missile: 494 DPS

Range: 23km

HAM, Terror Javalen Assault Missile: 365 DPS

Range: 95km

No, it really doesnt outclass the cerb up close and in medium range.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

The Zealot isn't designed as a sniper. Why compare it to sniping ships? The Zealot entirely outclasses the Cerb up close and at mid-range.

---

Zealot DPS, Heavy Pulse II, Amarr navy MF M: 454 DPS.

Range: 10km

Zealot DPS, Heavy Pulse II, Scorch M: 363 DPS.

Range: 30km

Cerberus DPS

HAM, Caldari Navy Terror Missile: 494 DPS

Range: 23km

HAM, Terror Javalen Assault Missile: 365 DPS

Range: 95km

No, it really doesnt outclass the cerb up close and in medium range.

---

Once again, playing QuickFit shows that you don't fly these ships or understand PVP nuances.

The Zealot has no reload time, can hot-swap crystals, and the DPS you are calculating is against larger targets... some of which can outrun HAMs. Pulses also do far better damage aginst smaller targets, particularly when webbed... where HAMs will do next to nothing.

Also, you mention using HAMs at a range of 95k. Factor in flight time to DPS and tell me how high it is then. Thanks.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

The Zealot isn't designed as a sniper. Why compare it to sniping ships? The Zealot entirely outclasses the Cerb up close and at mid-range.

---

Zealot DPS, Heavy Pulse II, Amarr navy MF M: 454 DPS.

Range: 10km

Zealot DPS, Heavy Pulse II, Scorch M: 363 DPS.

Range: 30km

Cerberus DPS

HAM, Caldari Navy Terror Missile: 494 DPS

Range: 23km

HAM, Terror Javalen Assault Missile: 365 DPS

Range: 95km

No, it really doesnt outclass the cerb up close and in medium range.

---

Once again, playing QuickFit shows that you don't fly these ships or understand PVP nuances.

The Zealot has no reload time, can hot-swap crystals, and the DPS you are calculating is against larger targets... some of which can outrun HAMs. Pulses also do far better damage aginst smaller targets, particularly when webbed... where HAMs will do next to nothing.

Also, you mention using HAMs at a range of 95k. Factor in flight time to DPS and tell me how high it is then. Thanks.

---

After flight time its pretty bad, a whole 12 seconds. But the 30km range comes in under 3.

The Hams do plenty of damage against smaller targets. Especialy webbed once. MWD+interceptor sig = sig over 125. Now they wont do damage to them because of speed, but neither will a zealot if the thing is moving. They will hit targets well enough up to about 2.6km/s. The faction HAMS have a velocity of 5km/s the Javs 12km/s. You wont have any trouble with thigns dodging the missiles.

In order to avoid damage from a cerberus when 90% webbed you would have to be traveling 10km/s before the web, and you have to hit 26km/s in order to make a significant dent in the dps[not that you wouldnt just run away, but a point is a point].

The Cerberus can hot swap ammo and change damage types, the Zealot cannot. The cerberus does not take 8-10 cap/second just to fire its guns.

The list goes on.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Neither does the Zealot... Where have you been the past few years?

---

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

---

It should be noted that missiles, like drones are a secondary weapon system.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Neither does the Zealot... Where have you been the past few years?

---

It was rhetorical.

You say the list goes on and on... and it doesn't. The Zealot is a faster, less massive ship with its own advantages. And the irony here is that I would argue it does need a slight buff (thus my reference to drone bays).

You are taking what is arguably the worst HAC with a distinct role, putting it in QuickFit, plugging in some numbers... and saying the Cerb does as good a job... when it doesn't. You completely ignored flight time... and then went on to casually dismiss it when it actually castrates the Cerbs DPS. Even the seemingly casual 3 second flight time means over 1200 DPS difference. The 12 second flight time that you mention equates to over 5000 DPS lost... when the Cerb is already neck-in-neck for damage with the Zealot.

Yes, the list does indeed go on.

---

Originally by: Katashi I****uka

---

Edited by: Katashi I****uka on 16/08/2007 20:18:19
It's too bad the Zealot isn't known for its massive drone bay either.



Edit: God I'm slow at posting.

Cerberus powergrid could be upped a bit, and base speed increased a smidge. Not sure we need a HAC Crow. Vagabond is bad enough, and it has to slow down in order for the guns to track. A sustainable nano-Cerb that doesn't move like a dead brick would be OP.

---

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

---

Tova I am done debating but your last post made me curious so I will ask this question.

If a missile flies faster will it have an easier time hitting fast movers like Ceptors?

I am no expert on what missile stats affect damage delt to fast targets.

If a faster missile has an easier time hitting fast movers then no ship in eve would have ANY defense againt missiles.

As it stands now the only way to avoid missile dps is to move fast.

Just curious is 3x faster missiles would mean that ships have to move 3x as fast to avoid the dps.

I think it would be stupid if a ceptor couldn't tackle a Raven because the Raven's torps were able to chase down the ceptor.

---

Originally by: Wayward Hooligan

---

Tova I am done debating but your last post made me curious so I will ask this question.

If a missile flies faster will it have an easier time hitting fast movers like Ceptors?

I am no expert on what missile stats affect damage delt to fast targets.

If a faster missile has an easier time hitting fast movers then no ship in eve would have ANY defense againt missiles.

As it stands now the only way to avoid missile dps is to move fast.

Just curious is 3x faster missiles would mean that ships have to move 3x as fast to avoid the dps.

I think it would be stupid if a ceptor couldn't tackle a Raven because the Raven's torps were able to chase down the ceptor.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

12 second flight time equates to over 0 dps lost, since the Zealot is about 60km short on hitting that range.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

But yes, missile flight time ought to be reduced and velocity improved, news at eleven.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Please answer the three questions that I presented in post #81.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

1. Explain how long-range missile spam is in any way preferable to a sniping turret ship of equivalent class that provides superior DPS that is instantaneous?

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

2. If #1 is true why not use a Caracal when it has two more turret hardpoints and a drone bay... and costs magnitudes less?

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

3. Explain how the Cerberus is preferable up close to a ship built for close-range combat (less massive, faster, more agile, more DPS, more flexibility in roles)?

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Also, just because it's difficult (not impossible) to calculate the general effect of missile flight time on DPS does not mean it's irrelevant. Long-range missile sniping gets its DPS utterly castrated by flight time. Assuming you even manage to land one missile... which is rare.

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

The Cerb will still lose over 5000 DPS in the given situation... whether it's a comparison to the Zealot or not is irrelevant. Flight time at long range kills missile DPS. It's a fact.

---

Originally by: Awox

---

1. FoF missiles (no such thing as FoF turret ships)

---

Originally by: Awox

---

2. able to fit decent passive tank (difficult to squeeze LSE on muninn/eagle, let alone two!)

---

Originally by: Awox

---

3. can defend itself better than an eagle or muninn can against a tackler

---

Originally by: Awox

---

1. less bonuses
2. less resists

---

Originally by: Awox

---

I never made that claim, the point I was making is that missiles will still hit if someone is 500m from your ship, unlike if you have howitzers or railguns on.

---

Originally by: Awox

---

How about you speak for yourself. My missiles land, just because you have targetting difficulties does not make the Cerberus a poor choice of ship.

---

Originally by: Awox

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

The Cerb will still lose over 5000 DPS in the given situation... whether it's a comparison to the Zealot or not is irrelevant. Flight time at long range kills missile DPS. It's a fact.

---

5000 dps, wtf? Maybe you lose that much DPS when you use it. Math please. Don't include "target died before I got there", because that comes down to pilot error and nothing else. It's a fact.

When well you get it mate? Ships are not meant to be awesome at everything.

All other long range cruisers are screwed when something gets under range of them, a Cerb can hang on longer because it doesn't sacrifice it's mids for loads of tracking comps..

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Originally by: Awox

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

The Cerb will still lose over 5000 DPS in the given situation... whether it's a comparison to the Zealot or not is irrelevant. Flight time at long range kills missile DPS. It's a fact.

---

5000 dps, wtf? Maybe you lose that much DPS when you use it. Math please. Don't include "target died before I got there", because that comes down to pilot error and nothing else. It's a fact.

When well you get it mate? Ships are not meant to be awesome at everything.

All other long range cruisers are screwed when something gets under range of them, a Cerb can hang on longer because it doesn't sacrifice it's mids for loads of tracking comps..

---

Read post #102 and please calculate flight time into the proposed Cerberus DPS. All the info is in the thread. You just have to read it.

---

Originally by: Goumindong

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

Originally by: Awox

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

The Cerb will still lose over 5000 DPS in the given situation... whether it's a comparison to the Zealot or not is irrelevant. Flight time at long range kills missile DPS. It's a fact.

---

5000 dps, wtf? Maybe you lose that much DPS when you use it. Math please. Don't include "target died before I got there", because that comes down to pilot error and nothing else. It's a fact.

When well you get it mate? Ships are not meant to be awesome at everything.

All other long range cruisers are screwed when something gets under range of them, a Cerb can hang on longer because it doesn't sacrifice it's mids for loads of tracking comps..

---

Read post #102 and please calculate flight time into the proposed Cerberus DPS. All the info is in the thread. You just have to read it.

---

I dont think you get it. See, the other ships in comparison do 0 dps at those ranges.

So its only a delay in damage if those ships you are comparing them to travel faster than 12km/s.

Just like the 4.5 seconds for the short range hams is only a a penalty if the other ship can close the distance between its opimtal and the cerbs in 4.5 seconds. Which is roughly 3km/s for a Zealot.

---

Originally by: Lisento Slaven

---

Ok so this isn't really a cerberus sucks kind of thread, but rather a "boost missile speed" thread?

---

Originally by: Tovarishch

---

The Zealot and Muninn do 0 DPS at 95k range?

What?

Your example was that the Cerb could theoretically do 365 DPS at 95k using HAMs. Both the Zealot and the Muninn can operate at such ranges... and do significant DPS with absolutely no delay in damage.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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The Zealot and Muninn do 0 DPS at 95k range?

What?

Your example was that the Cerb could theoretically do 365 DPS at 95k using HAMs. Both the Zealot and the Muninn can operate at such ranges... and do significant DPS with absolutely no delay in damage.

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An AC Muninn and Pulse Zealot do 0 DPS at 98km.

Now a Beam Zealot will do 232 dps at 98km with aurora, and 401 DPS at 30km with Amarr Navy Multifreqency. But it wont track nearly as well as the Cerberus will. So now the cerb has a huge advantage in the short range.

And the Cerberus can do this with one setup simply by changing ammo, that is pretty darn impressive. If i could hit to 95km with pulse lasers on a Zealot and do even 100 dps i would be jumping for joy,

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Quote:

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An AC Muninn and Pulse Zealot do 0 DPS at 98km.

Now a Beam Zealot will do 232 dps at 98km with aurora, and 401 DPS at 30km with Amarr Navy Multifreqency. But it wont track nearly as well as the Cerberus will. So now the cerb has a huge advantage in the short range.

And the Cerberus can do this with one setup simply by changing ammo, that is pretty darn impressive. If i could hit to 95km with pulse lasers on a Zealot and do even 100 dps i would be jumping for joy

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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PS. Just so you know... a pulse Zealot or AC Muninn can close the distance to a target in nearly as long a time it takes for the Cerb's first volley of missiles to reach the target. I can also twist the argument and, since you just changed weapons and ranges, ask what would happen if the opposite were true and the Cerb had Heavy Launchers fitted and was stuck at close range with the pulse Zealot and AC Muninn. Regardless, I'm sure you'll simply find a way to try to sneak some change into the argument hoping I (or someone else) doesn't notice.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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So pulse zealots and AC muninns do "nearly" 7.9 km/s now?

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Originally by: Aramendel

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And you are twisting what he says. Fact is that a cerb with jav hams OUTRANGES a zealot with heavy beams. 140k max range vs 114k optimal with 3 tracking comps. The shortrange weapon outranges the longrange weapon.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Yes, if a cerb with heavies encounters a zealot with pulses at short range the cerberus will be at a disadvantage. However, the cerb with HAMs encountering a zealot with beams at long range WONT.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Firstly, this wasn't even the original scenario we discussed. We began discussing sniping when he then decided to bait and switch and comprare a pulse Zealot to a Cerb with HAMs at 95k.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Firstly, this wasn't even the original scenario we discussed. We began discussing sniping when he then decided to bait and switch and comprare a pulse Zealot to a Cerb with HAMs at 95k.

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There was no bait and switch.

Here is a link to my first post in this conversation regarding the cerb and zealot. Notice that both lines listing DPS were listed with pulses?

You then replied that
Also, you mention using HAMs at a range of 95k. Factor in flight time to DPS and tell me how high it is then. Thanks.


I then reply with this, which you pick up on After flight time its pretty bad, a whole 12 seconds. But the 30km range comes in under 3.

A few posts later, you reply directly with this The 12 second flight time that you mention equates to over 5000 DPS lost... when the Cerb is already neck-in-neck for damage with the Zealot.

Wait a second! The Zealot with pulses cant hit to 95km.

12 seconds of flight time at 95km equates to 2784 damage for a beam zealot with aurora. Which is pretty high, the Beam Zealot clearly has a large advantage over the Cerberus. Its about a 21 second dps advantage. Frankly that is much too high.

But that same cerberus has a huge advantage in the short range when encountering that same Zealot or any other ship for that matter. More DPS, low fight time AND better equivelent tracking.

But when the Short range Zealot hits the HAM cerb, its still down on DPS, with only a slight advantage in flight time if and only if the Zealot lands at 10km. If the short range ship encounters the cerb at long range, the cerb has the advantage.

This is basically its missile versitility, it can be effective in the short and long range without changing its build, simply by changing ammo.

Ideally easier to fit[I.E. fix ham fitting] with faster missiles, but that is about it.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Its not a bait and switch because the cerberus hits 95km range in its short range setup

They have comparable damage with the cerb having more range. How in the world can you say i am baiting and switching when there was no switch. We started talking about short range setups and we ended talking about short range setups.

I mean, you are aware that you do not have to refit your ship to change from tech 1 HAMs and jav HAMs right?

Why would a cerb shoot jav hams? I dont know if it found itself 90km away from a target and had HAMS fitted? Its not like they cant fire from 50km either[6.4 seconds flight time]. That fight time is much lower than the time it would take a Zealot or anything else to get into range.

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Originally by: Tovarishch

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Originally by: Aramendel

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So pulse zealots and AC muninns do "nearly" 7.9 km/s now?

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Firstly, this wasn't even the original scenario we discussed. We began discussing sniping when he then decided to bait and switch and compare a pulse Zealot to a Cerb with HAMs at 95k. He changed it to strengthen his argument. Regardless, read the entire thread and relevant posts. Those HAMs at that range will take appx. 12 seconds to reach their target... in that time a Zealot or Muninn fitted for short range can nearly reach their optimal using the proper ammo.

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Originally by: Awox

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You never gave the maths to prove the DPS is castrated, you just make this claim. Castrated is a bit of an exaggeration so do the math.

I'm gunna stop trying to argue, you're obviously right, and everyone arguing in favor of the Cerberus is completely wrong.

To you write this as you alt tab from a boring fleet fight / POS engagement btw?

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Originally by: Laboratus

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What drones did the domi use?
Heavy drones are cruiser sized weapons (sig res 125m) and as such suffer no penalty when shooting cruiser sized targets (sig rad 125m).

And what were the fits? A neut gank domi should do enough dps to punch through passive tanks.

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Originally by: Almarez

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Very wrong. The Cerb has much better range. The problem is that missle boats aren't really good for sniping. Unless there are a bunch of tacklers holding down the target and if that's the case there really is no need to stay out at 150km.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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It could do with equalised speed & mass to the new deimos. You can't have missile ships going too fast though because the launchers don't have to track. Imagine a Crow that actually does enough damage to kill something...

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Originally by: Katashi I****uka

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Why does Burn Eden use Ravens instead of railthrons?

Because Caldari ships have the mids for EWAR, and when stuff is tackled 150km away it doesn't matter that there is lag in flight

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Originally by: d026

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cerb spaming missiles at 120k = 15 seconds missile flight time
eagle at 120k = 0 sec hybrid flight time
deimos at 10k = 0 sec flight time

within this first 15 seconds the eagle can put out 2,5 dmg, the deimos 10k dmg while the cerb still waiting for his missiles to hit and doing 0 dmg so far...

is that so hard to get?

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Originally by: John McCreedy

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Anyone claiming that a Deimos is superceded by an Eos/Astarte needs to consider that a Deimos is still superior to a Brutix.

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Originally by: Lady Khanid

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You provide medium/high substained DPS at long range as well as providing fleet Sniper support at 20km against enemy tacklers, i Can assure you Interdictors absoloutely hate seeing a Cerb mixed in with a hostile sniper fleet.

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Originally by: Lady Khanid

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The Cerb much like the Eagle is a specialised Fleet support ship, while the Eagle can Excel taking out small long-range targets, the Cerb has the ability to deal with those close and long range.

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Originally by: Lady Khanid

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Oh btw if you target an enemy Dictor/Cruiser/Even intie from 180km away very few will realise they are being targeted and fired upon until the first missle strikes (In Fleet ops with cluttered overviews).

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Originally by: Lady Khanid

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The Cerb does have a role i can assure you.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2007 20:30:47
There is. Their range dps.

Look at the spreadsheet above - the cerb outdamages all other HACs at 100k within 20 seconds. If you would increase missilespeed by the factor 10 this would happen in 2 seconds. There would be no point at all in using anything but missiles at range.

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Originally by: d026

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2007 20:30:47
There is. Their range dps.

Look at the spreadsheet above - the cerb outdamages all other HACs at 100k within 20 seconds. If you would increase missilespeed by the factor 10 this would happen in 2 seconds. There would be no point at all in using anything but missiles at range.

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if the gang is large enough missiles suck. if the gang is mainly closerange missiles suck to. so if you want to get your dps fly with a sniper gang consisting of 5 peeps?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: d026

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2007 20:30:47
There is. Their range dps.

Look at the spreadsheet above - the cerb outdamages all other HACs at 100k within 20 seconds. If you would increase missilespeed by the factor 10 this would happen in 2 seconds. There would be no point at all in using anything but missiles at range.

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if the gang is large enough missiles suck. if the gang is mainly closerange missiles suck to. so if you want to get your dps fly with a sniper gang consisting of 5 peeps?

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Why do HAMs suck in the close range? A cerb is now going to do 500 DPS to 40km. All the while its missiles will travel faster than any HAC that needs to get in range except ones with snake sets AND doesnt need to worry about transversal.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Edited by: Aramendel on 18/08/2007 01:51:17
If the gang is shortrange you can fit HAMs and still be rather competative with other HACs.

And, no, in a large longrange gang where your targets die within 20 seconds it is worse than turrets. For anything which lasts longer however it is BETTER.
What do you expect - that it is superior always?

Also, as a sidenote: HAM flight time got boosted on sisi - a cerb can rech now with its *shortrange* weapon system 185k.

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Originally by: d026

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...in a longrange gang you are only competitive within certain circumstances (if the target does not go down within 20 seconds).

so in 95% of the combat scenarios the cerb just plain sucks compared to all other hacs and its only purpos remains to shoot frigs and ceptors.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Why do HAMs suck in the close range? A cerb is now going to do 500 DPS to 40km. All the while its missiles will travel faster than any HAC that needs to get in range except ones with snake sets AND doesnt need to worry about transversal.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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You are honestly comparing 500 dps from 40k to 800 dps from 4k?

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Originally by: d026

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Originally by: Aramendel

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You are honestly comparing 500 dps from 40k to 800 dps from 4k?

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yeah i do because you never fight at 40k. usualy you fight at +150k or at 0-24k

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: d026

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Originally by: Aramendel

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You are honestly comparing 500 dps from 40k to 800 dps from 4k?

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yeah i do because you never fight at 40k. usualy you fight at +150k or at 0-24k

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Which is still a far way from 4k. A deimos does not even nearly deal 800 dps at 15k, nevermind 24k.

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Originally by: d026

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its funny that i mainly see blaster boats as top damagedealer on killmails and not cerbs which can do such ueber dps from 40k:) im sure its because its so hard to keep traversal low and getting in optimal with em..

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Originally by: "QproQ"

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When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Or because everyone realizes its pointless to fly a cerb. I see far more blaster boats in space than cerbs.

Liang

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Originally by: Aramendel

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There are more throax, deimos, brutix, astarte and eos in space together than cerbs? 5 ships outnumber 1 ship? Tell me it aint so!

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Originally by: "QproQ"

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When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Or because everyone realizes its pointless to fly a cerb. I see far more blaster boats in space than cerbs.

Liang

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