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Me VS All : The Issue of AFK cloaking

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Superbus Maximus Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.14 02:41:00 - [211] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Superbus Maximus Quite a bit actually, considering most people use use the tactic because they are heavily outnumbered and it gives them the ability to pick and choose their fights. Fair enough. But is it fair that a pilot should be able to go AFK (and become absolutely invulnerable) while doing so? A pilot who is active and warping around, picking and choosing fights is in my mind, a legitimate player, but someone sitting still and unable to be found, is not. Why shouldn't the other side (in this case the one with numbers) be able to use their numbers and time advantage to probe and decloak them? Why not just be patient in baiting him into a fight he thinks he can win and then use your numbers? If you do this to him several times he probably will think of something new or just not do it to you anymore.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.14 02:48:00 - [212] Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 02:48:05 Originally by: Superbus Maximus Why not just be patient in baiting him into a fight he thinks he can win and then use your numbers? If you do this to him several times he probably will think of something new or just not do it to you anymore. While possible, this is incredibly difficult to do. AFK cloakers will probably have been there several days and will know the normal behaivours. Then, if you've killed them, there's nothing to stop them slipping in again and then never decloaking, though the potential to decloak and attack still exists, more so than before as he's attacked in the past. I'd much rather probe them out and kill them than arsing about with overcomplex traps to overcome an inbalanced game mechanic. More fun for all those involved.
Superbus Maximus Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.14 03:00:00 - [213] Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 02:48:05 Originally by: Superbus Maximus Why not just be patient in baiting him into a fight he thinks he can win and then use your numbers? If you do this to him several times he probably will think of something new or just not do it to you anymore. While possible, this is incredibly difficult to do. AFK cloakers will probably have been there several days and will know the normal behaivours. Then, if you've killed them, there's nothing to stop them slipping in again and then never decloaking, though the potential to decloak and attack still exists, more so than before as he's attacked in the past. I'd much rather probe them out and kill them than arsing about with overcomplex traps to overcome an inbalanced game mechanic. More fun for all those involved. Well thats where I disagree. Patients is a virtue and if you really want them dead, with patients and planing you can kill them. I don't think all fights in eve should be determined by who has the greats numbers or who can do this or that the fastest but by positioning and proper planing. It is so much more fun when you plan something out and succeed in doing then just massing up a ass load of people and killing everything that pops into your overview.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.14 03:06:00 - [214] Originally by: Superbus Maximus It is so much more fun when you plan something out and succeed in doing then just massing up a ass load of people and killing everything that pops into your overview. My suggestion would require extensive planning and teamwork. If you can probe, but not scan cloakers, then you must start at the longest-range probes you have. If you factor in extra added difficulty for probing a cloaked ship, you're talking high innaccuracy and a good chance of not finding them. Thus, only those with the patience to persist will succeed. Even if you do manage to scan them, you'll have to organise your gangmates to sweep an area ~30-40KM around you, again, favouring those with the time and persistence to do so. I'm not proposing an insta-probe decloak tool, but rather a method to combat ships that shouldn't be fitting cloaks (ratting BSes) and ships that go AFK while cloaked.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.08.14 03:15:00 - [215] Originally by: Stitcher Originally by: Yellow Pixie They play the game by not playing the game. AFK. That's not a game tactic. Anyone who does not react to them, even while they are AFK for 3 days straight, will end up dead. How do they kill anyone if they're AFK? They can't. While AFK, they are harmless. And if they ARE present in the game, then they are hunting while cloaked, which is a valid tactic. So basically, your whole complaint comes down to the feeling that cloaking devices are unfair. I can get behind the idea of an inactivity timeout - say, 30 minutes or so - but all this lobbying to have cloaking devices nerfed in a variety of crazy ways just grates - what's the point of flying a covops or recon if your sole advantage is thrown out of the window? I think he's probably not arguing for the inactivity timeout because he knows that people would circumvent it so easily. Putting it into effect would effectively nerf cloaking for everyone except the people that decide it's a good idea to use a third party program to keep cloaked 23/7, keep toothpicks in their keyboards, or whatever. It's not a logical solution, because it wouldn't work.
RigelKentaurus Flying Reblochons Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.08.14 04:03:00 - [216] Originally by: Curzon Dax If it turns out that they uncloak periodically to wreak havoc on lone ratters or such...that kind of information should be collected, collaborated, and acted upon so that you can plot their times of activity and work to counteract them. That's indeed the best way to fight AFK cloakers, by knowing their habits you can make gangs at specific hours to catch them. If you can't use modules to directly fight against AFK cloakers, then use your brain, it's your best weapon in EVE, unless some divine being nerfed it because it was too efficient.
Steel Tigeress Gallente Coalition of Nations Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.08.14 04:04:00 - [217] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Decloaks again The best thing that could happen RIGHT NOW would be for CCP to make a definitive statement once and for all on the issue. Then everyone could shut up already F1 I think they pretty much did that when they said "Cloaks will be made probable in the future" You lose.
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.08.14 04:08:00 - [218] First I want to state my position on this. I've had to deal with this tactic. When you play during the off-peak times (living in Australia) even the larger alliances have a reduced presence in their 0.0 systems. There have been many times when I have been playing where there was maybe 40 people in the alliance online (from an alliance of several thousand). During these times anyone ratting/mining/whatever is pretty much forced to go solo or just sit around twiddling their thumbs. The more stupid amongst our numbers used to mine in their hulks in the prime systems and get popped by the cloaked menace, the smarter ones went to other systems (erm, I'm a member of the latter group of course!). We also managed to set a few traps and kill a few of them. Personally I think the tactic is *****s and should be nerfed but there is also plenty of ways to work around them (if your alliance doesn't have enough space that you can just move to another system with a station or mine in a system with a POS for storing the ore or rat somewhere else then...) I don't believe the cloaks should be nerfed though as there is times when people need to use them for indeterminate periods of time possibly at a moments notice (I think most people with kids would fit into this category). Which brings me to this... Originally by:** Curzon Dax shrugs Play the game the way you want to, and respect other peoples' ability to do the same. My issue with this statement is that these "other people" aren't actually playing the game are they? They are AFK. IF they are not AFK then the tactic is fine. I think the only way around this is to have some method of logging these people out (or simply have them disappear from local, with maybe a 60 second delay before you can do anything after you come back from being AFK so you show up in local first) when they are not active. Unfortunately any simple method of detecting the AFKness of a person will be circumvented by scripts/macros and we are back to square one. I don't know the best way to fix this but I don't believe that a simple nerf to cloaks will suffice without breaking other aspect of game play.
Shurikane	Posted - 2007.08.14 04:30:00 - [219] Edited by: Shurikane on 14/08/2007 04:32:59 Real life. It gets in the way. If EVE was the universe, then we'd sure have people patrolling the stargates and stations and asteroid belts and making sure the system is nice and tidy and free of rats and hostiles. Getting into any hostile territory would be the equivalent of striking a hornet's nest. But this doesn't happen. We have work to do and a life to live. At some point, we have to log off, and places that should logically be kept in check cease to be. That's why Local chat exists the way it is. It plays the role of the "several sub-members of the job" tasked with the patrolling duties. If a hostile pops out of stargate, that unnamed patroller yells "I saw someone!" Sure, it would be lovely if everyone had a given shift of work inside EVE, and we'd know when to watch whose back and where, but that will never happen, because we're playing a game and not real life. Countless would-be skirmishes and roams get cancelled because of time zones, meals, sleep and other real life duties. Often, I wish I could have some help defending against a menace, but my closest alliance mates are all gone to bed. It's like Chrome Hounds where the Asians would win every single game because they came in at the equivalent of America's middle of the night and capturing the entire map without any opposition at all, thus finishing the day (a war in-game ended somewhere around midnight) with the highest amount of land. If somebody's going to be a threat to others, then please have him sit at his keyboard and watch the screen. I want to play against live human beings on the other end of my Internet connection, and those who snooze should lose. At some point, a compromise has to be made.
Kirex Gallente Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.14 04:48:00 - [220] If someone who is AFK scares you so much, why don't you just change systems? Or what about setting a trap for him?
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.14 04:50:00 - [221] Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 04:53:24 Originally by: Kirex If someone who is AFK scares you so much, why don't you just change systems? Or what about setting a trap for him? Yay for barely skimming a thread and posting a response without thinking.
Steel Tigeress Gallente Coalition of Nations Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.08.14 05:12:00 - [222] Originally by: Kirex If someone who is AFK scares you so much, why don't you just change systems? Or what about setting a trap for him? And how exactly do you set a trap for somone who is AFK?? Do you set up bait and have you defence gang wait aroud while the cloaked guy is at work? How long do you sit there trying to bait somone who's not there befor you give up? The folks who always say "Its 0.0, its not supposed to be safe, its supposed to be dangerous"...: You're right, it is suposed to be dangerouse. It should be especially dangerous to somone who is not even at his keyboard. Lets take 2 BS's. One with a cloak and one without. We'll say they both snuck into enemy territory and went AFK. How long would the non-cloaked ship last compared to the cloaked assuming the game didnt have Downtime. Thats right it cant be measured, because cloaks are an absolute. So is absolute safety in 0.0 a little bit overpowered for a module anybody can use in about 10 days?
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.14 06:59:00 - [223] Nobody should be %100 safe in 0.0 Not Titans Not Cloakers Nobody
Boonaki Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.08.14 07:11:00 - [224] Just make a pos mod, 10 minute scan time, drop you within 10k of the afk cloaker. Fear the Ibis of doom! 113
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2007.08.14 09:49:00 - [225] There is already a post in dev forum about AFK-cloakers too. It might be better to post comments there as devs/CCP might actually read it. Linky
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.14 10:39:00 - [226] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 14/08/2007 10:43:41 Originally by: Steel Tigeress Originally by: RuleoftheBone Decloaks again The best thing that could happen RIGHT NOW would be for CCP to make a definitive statement once and for all on the issue. Then everyone could shut up already F1 I think they pretty much did that when they said "Cloaks will be made probable in the future" You lose. Link and details please. All I see is speculation and suggestions. And again...for the record as I have suggested previously across multiple threads (not that anyone cares or reads): -Bring in a one hour AFK timer applicable to ALL including those perma docked at stations and camped in POS's. And before anyone chimes in with the "3rd party software" counter-how many pilots aside from those macro/farmer types really use them? Aside from clearing the so-called AFK issue would this not also reduce server load helping to increase performance? -Eliminate cloaks from ALL ships excepting COVOPS/Recons/Stealth Bombers/T2 transports. Full stop. Or from a purely immersion standpoint...allow the cloaks for other combat ships but penalize them with the inability to activate ANY offensive modules with the cloak equipped. -While we are at it...apply the same rule (inability to activate offensive mods) to those who fit WCS on combat ships. Full stop. "Interference from the WCS prevents you from activating that module". Seems pretty straightforward to me. But it's much easier to cry for a nerf and "speshul uber alliance sov mods" I suppose . EDITA browse though the GD forums again shows absolutely NO dev comments on the issue that I can see beyond player comments and suggestions. I lose how?? "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.14 11:22:00 - [227] Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 11:22:48 Originally by: RuleoftheBone Link and details please. All I see is speculation and suggestions. Linkage It was subsequently delayed and there's been a distinct lack of mention since. on your other suggestions.. An AFK timer will never happen. It is not up to CCP to dictate how or when you play the game that you pay for. It also brings the metagame into the game, something i'd hate to see happen. Eliminating cloaks from all non-dedicated ships has too much of an impact on too many setups, and would require a massive rebalancing effort, probably resulting in more bugs and balance issues than we could collectively imagine. Allowing difficult probing of the cloakers is honestly the best solution.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.14 11:48:00 - [228] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 14/08/2007 11:49:17 Originally by: Elmicker Link plus further rubbish Quote: Cheers for the link. It would appear that the lack of further comment might indicate that the devs have thought the better of the idea. "An AFK timer will never happen. It is not up to CCP to dictate how or when you play the game that you pay for. It also brings the metagame into the game, something i'd hate to see happen." As you keep pointing out...AFK is not playing is it? And what do you mean regarding metagaming? I take metagaming to mean using OOG methods to gain an edge. How is this relevant? "Eliminating cloaks from all non-dedicated ships has too much of an impact on too many setups, and would require a massive rebalancing effort, probably resulting in more bugs and balance issues than we could collectively imagine" What setups? The WCS and cloak-geared Raven? . Its a simple fix. Anyway..this thread is chasing its own tail in a pointless fashion. The stage is yours . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.14 11:53:00 - [229] Originally by: RuleoftheBone As you keep pointing out...AFK is not playing is it? And what do you mean regarding metagaming? I take metagaming to mean using OOG methods to gain an edge. How is this relavent? No, i meant dictating ingame activity based on out of game factor and vice versa. This is metagaming. It brings in a factor that isn't part of the game mechanics, but rather real life. The game should, as much as is possible for an MMO, be removed from real life. Quote: What setups? The WCS and cloak-geared Raven? . Its a simple fix. Haulers, nanoships, snipers, BE Ravens, cloaked combat recons, cloaked T1 cyno frigs etc. There's more than you'd think. I have absolutely no opposition to creative use of cloaks, and cloaks on any other fits. I encourage it and i want to see more. I think theyre brilliant modules. The only thing i have a problem with is people abusing the protection they give to act as a psychological influence via local chat.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.14 12:42:00 - [230] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: RuleoftheBone As you keep pointing out...AFK is not playing is it? And what do you mean regarding metagaming? I take metagaming to mean using OOG methods to gain an edge. How is this relavent? I- No, i meant dictating ingame activity based on out of game factor and vice versa. This is metagaming. It brings in a factor that isn't part of the game mechanics, but rather real life. The game should, as much as is possible for an MMO, be removed from real life. Quote: What setups? The WCS and cloak-geared Raven? . Its a simple fix. II-Haulers, nanoships, snipers, BE Ravens, cloaked combat recons, cloaked T1 cyno frigs etc. There's more than you'd think. I have absolutely no opposition to creative use of cloaks, and cloaks on any other fits. I encourage it and i want to see more. I think theyre brilliant modules. The only thing i have a problem with is people abusing the protection they give to act as a psychological influence via local chat. This is absolutely my last post in this thread...probably to everyone's relief...or the small percentage of EvE that actually reads these forums. Your Point I-What ARE you on about? How is kicking an AFK player from station/POS after 1 hour of zero activity "metagaming" or dictating play? If a RL situation comes up while playing that will require my attention for a reasonable amount of time I will either dock or make a SS (without aggro natch ) and log off until I am free to play again. The same applies to AFK cloaked in space. No keyboard or mouse input for 1 hour? Kick from server. Your point II-Nanoships with cloaks? BE's cloaked Ravens? Cloaked snipers? Haulers? Look...as I mentioned umpteen times already cloaks should be for the dedicated covops/recons/SB's/T2 transports. The difference between pilots like you and those of BE is they will adapt tactics if/when changed...where all you can do is run to the forums and complain in a circular fashion . And a cloak on a nano-ship sort of defeats the purpose don't you think? F1...dock....log "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
MasterEnt	Posted - 2007.08.14 13:54:00 - [231] Originally by: Brox alDragoran How do you know the cloakers are afk ? WIN! Exactly, untill you liffle F-ers can prove people are AFK and not jut ignoring you or playing two accounts at once this whole argument is BS
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.14 13:56:00 - [232] Originally by: MasterEnt Originally by: Brox alDragoran How do you know the cloakers are afk ? WIN! Exactly, untill you liffle F-ers can prove people are AFK and not jut ignoring you or playing two accounts at once this whole argument is BS trump card 9xxx cloaking is gg ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Ruuph Marx Caldari Free Corp	Posted - 2007.08.14 14:35:00 - [233] To the OP: The thing that seriously needs to be nerfed is showing everyones face in local chat as they enter the system. If local chat is nerfed, it will fix your problem with afk cloakers as they won't appear in local. Then you won't need to be afraid for things that you can't see. Have fun.
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.14 19:36:00 - [234] I'd like to see someone try to prove this 'afk' cloaking 23/7 really exists, because I don't really believe it. I don't see how it can, the server boots inactive clients (I see it all the time). ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.14 19:38:00 - [235] Originally by: Gabriel Karade the server boots inactive clients (I see it all the time). No it doesn't.
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.15 16:48:00 - [236] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Gabriel Karade the server boots inactive clients (I see it all the time). No it doesn't. Yes it does. I see my Cov ops alt getting booted all the time if it's sat cloaked at a safe spot - less than 1 hour of inactivity and it's gone. If however, I'm doing something with it, no problems at all. I really, really don't believe in this so-called 23/7 æafk cloakingÆ - if you guys 'knew' they'd been there all 23 hours, it means one of two things: a) You yourself we're there 23 hours, ergo proving itÆs viability b) You're relying on second hand information from others, prone to Chinese whispers and general *******s. As I said, I know for a FACT, that prolonged inactivity causes a cloaked Cov ops at a safespot to get booted. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.08.15 18:39:00 - [237] Remove local. Then you don't know they are there. If you don't know they are in system, they won't disrupt your activitites those 18 hours they are AFK. Perhaps change local, so it only shows nearby ships (within a grid) and you can only communicate with them. Ofcourse keep regular "homemade" channels.
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.15 18:50:00 - [238] ZOMG!!1 Whats this?! Two hours later and I've kept it connected - by the simple expediant of changing direction randomly every 5-10 minutes. So much for 'afk' cloaking ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.15 18:59:00 - [239] Originally by: Gabriel Karade I see my Cov ops alt getting booted all the time if it's sat cloaked at a safe spot - less than 1 hour of inactivity and it's gone. If however, I'm doing something with it, no problems at all. Odd that, isn't it? I've sat AFK in space for up to 23 hours at a time. Quote: b) You're relying on second hand information from others, prone to Chinese whispers and general *******s. If you dont trust the intelligence provided from your alliance mates, why on earth are you even considering fighting for/with them? Alliances are built on trust. Aside from that, its usually easy to tell once they've been in local for the 6th day running and they've been there for every second you've been there.
Solid Wilko Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:27:00 - [240] Originally by: Gabriel Karade I'd like to see someone try to prove this 'afk' cloaking 23/7 really exists, because I don't really believe it. I don't see how it can, the server boots inactive clients (I see it all the time). Errr I do it all the time and don't get booted by the server. Is that proof enough As a recon pilot who loves to go AFK I must say I cannot beleive people are defending my ability to go AFK and be unkillable. As a university student sitting AFK cloaked then coming back to gank someone every 5 hours in utter safety just seems imbalanced. At least when I'm flying around through gate camps or actually at my computer there is a chance of user error or a superfast cepter etc that could cost me my ship. If anything I'm actually SAFER when AFK considering my experince with alcohol and flying. I think the best solution is to make Cloaks use a very TINY amount of fuel every so often (just to make sure you are there) No one should be unkillable. Not even me.

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