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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.27 08:54:00 - [1] It seems like CCP is currently active in removing ISK from players gained through illegal activities. In theory this seems all fine and dandy. But if a player gains isk illegally (either through exploits or buying it online or what ever) and buys stuff from someone else can that other person have his money removed without getting the items back he sold? Example 1: I sell batteships, someone who bought/exploited his way up to wealthdom buys one of my ships. When the GM finds out the buyer has been naughty and wants to remove the illegal isk from game will I get the battleship I sold to that guy back? Even if for example that BS got blown up in some gatecamp? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=583100 Example 2: I sell GTC's someone with an illegimate isk supply buys from me, do I get the GTC returned? Even if that person would have used it? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=582942 (i know he wasn't smart using the non-secure method, but i'm mainly interested in what the responce would be if the secure method would have been followed completely). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.08.27 08:56:00 - [2] You can end up with noticeable negative wallet balance. It's possible to get also banned for buying isk, altho I have not heard that happen to anyone I know. I personally would ban all isk buyers. Permanently. If crime does not pay ppl usually dont do it, eh ?
Estoika Chonda Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.27 08:59:00 - [3] GM's take back your money but didn't return the BS to you?? It's good if the GM's only take the illegal money from the "cheater", but if you sold a BS, you didn't do any illegal :S --------------------------------------------------
Fujiko MaXjolt	Posted - 2007.08.27 09:12:00 - [4] GM's will punish the wrong-doer only, and will not care if he winds up in the red by any amount - he DID break the EULA afterall....
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.08.27 09:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Fujiko MaXjolt GM's will punish the wrong-doer only, and will not care if he winds up in the red by any amount - he DID break the EULA afterall.... please re-read the OP SKUNK Originally by: Jeximo I also like how your cat only managed to hit the enter button when he/she jumped on your keyboard.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.27 09:44:00 - [6] Originally by: Carniflex You can end up with noticeable negative wallet balance. It's possible to get also banned for buying isk, altho I have not heard that happen to anyone I know. I personally would ban all isk buyers. Permanently. If crime does not pay ppl usually dont do it, eh ? I would agree with you that all isk buyers and sellers should be banned, but my question is how is the isk trail exactly handled? What happens if an isk buyer (or someone who found a way to duplicate isk in infinite ammounts) would buy a tempest of me and gave it to his buddy? Would his buddy loose the tempest he received? Would the seller of the tempest get the tempest back etc? And before you ask no this hasn't happened to me, but the 2 threads I linked do make me very curious as to how it is exactly handled. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
AuroraStar RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:26:00 - [7] Edited by: AuroraStar on 27/08/2007 10:27:21 http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=437 Quote: To conclude what I hope is an inspiring and enlightening GM blog, I would like to add that the penalty for buying ISK is (at the minimum) the removal of all ISK bought, no matter if it is still in the wallet or not. Players that buy ISK and spend it on cool stuff will end up with a negative wallet balance and in some cases cannot get out of debt. Should answer somewhat.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:33:00 - [8] Originally by: AuroraStar Edited by: AuroraStar on 27/08/2007 10:27:21 http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=437 Quote: To conclude what I hope is an inspiring and enlightening GM blog, I would like to add that the penalty for buying ISK is (at the minimum) the removal of all ISK bought, no matter if it is still in the wallet or not. Players that buy ISK and spend it on cool stuff will end up with a negative wallet balance and in some cases cannot get out of debt. Should answer somewhat. Well this would actually awnser my question, but at the same time what's odd is that the 2 examples in the OP basicly state 2 diffrent people on 2 diffrent cases which strangely at nearly the same time post about loosing ISK to GM action because someone with bought isk bought some items from them. And that CCP reversed the sale (from what i've read without reinstating the items of the people posting). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:34:00 - [9] The first post linked has no context. The second explains the perils of selling GTC outside the secure transfer mechanism implemented by CCP. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:42:00 - [10] Generic Noob buys 1 Trillion ISK. Example 1: Because Generic Noob has no idea about the real value of ISK he buys one of your BSs for half a trillion ISK. You get half a trillion ISK. GMs are alerted to Generic Noobs bad habits. One trillion ISK are removed from Generic Noobs wallet. Net result: You sold one BS and gained half a trillion ISK. Generic Noob now has a wallet balance of -half a trillion ISK and needs to work up his half a trillion ISK before he can do anything as there is almost always some fee involved in EvE. He also has a BS which he bought on credit. Example 2: You sell 5 years worth of GTC to generic noob for a trillion ISK (because he's got no clue). Generic Noob commits to 5 years of playing EvE. GMs remove 1 trillion ISK from his wallet. Generic Noob spends 1 year of those five getting back up to 0 balance. Now I've never been a GM so I dont know the full details. But in general this is how ISK buyers are dealth with. The sellers are of course banned as well but we all know that's rather futile. The real problem isn't the supply of ISK but the demand for buying virtual currency with hard cash.. AKA sloth mixed with ignorance. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:55:00 - [11] From some post in the past, the only risk you have is that the GM, seeing the isk buyer paying you some outlandish sum for an item, will think you are part of a laundering scheme and will take the isk from you. Usually you can clear that through petition. There was a thread some time ago where a player was asking suggestions as he had got 2 billions selling some common item. He suspected it a isk selling operation were he accidentally had sold the item agreed upon between the isk seller and his client, so he immediatly petitioned and kept the isk available. After some check CCP determined that is was a isk selling operation, so took away the isk and replaced the sold item, thanking the player for his collaboration. So it is possible you will have to give back the isk you get from some isk buyer, but then you will get back what you sold.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:55:00 - [12] Originally by: CCP Prism X The real problem isn't the supply of ISK but the demand for buying virtual currency with hard cash.. AKA sloth mixed with ignorance. Yes, that's exactly the problem. But's it's aslo pretty evident that just removing the isk isn't enough to discourage the potential isk-buyer. Just teh scale of isk-farming is mind-boggling. You have hundreds (thousands?) of high-sec macro-miners, the macro-mission runners, and probably somehere between 500 and 2000 farming ravens in out-of-the-way 0.0 systems, killing npcs 23/7. Not to mention account hacking and the like...Yet taking out the farmers is almost futile. You can ban accounts by the hundreds, they cn take another trial and be in a torp-raven within 2 weeks. How about a harder penalty for those who buy isks? Like, for example, removal of 1 million skill points for 100 millions isks bought, or temporary/permanent bans? ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Drenad	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:05:00 - [13] Edited by: Drenad on 27/08/2007 11:07:57 Originally by: Shevar Edited by: Shevar on 27/08/2007 10:12:59 It seems like CCP is currently active in removing ISK from players gained through illegal activities. In theory this seems all fine and dandy. But if a player gains isk illegally (either through exploits or buying it online or what ever) and buys stuff from someone else can that other person have his money removed without getting the items back he sold? Example 1: I sell batteships, someone who bought/exploited his way up to wealthdom buys one of my ships. When the GM finds out the buyer has been naughty and wants to remove the illegal isk from game will I get the battleship I sold to that guy back? Even if for example that BS got blown up in some gatecamp? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=583100 Example 2: I sell GTC's someone with an illegimate isk supply buys from me, do I get the GTC returned? Even if that person would have used it? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=582942 (i know he wasn't smart using the non-secure method, but i'm mainly interested in what the responce would be if the secure method would have been followed completely). On your example 2 the gtc seller did use the secure method, thats the point in his post and the money was removed from his account? even it should have been removed from the buyers account who had bought isk by illeagal means.
ApaKaka Lone Starr Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:06:00 - [14] case 1. I think that guy simply got 100 mil 'free' from a friend as a donation. The donator had bought it illegally, and as such, it was removed. case 2. Well, this is really sad, because the gtc-seller loses real money. Fine - we could sell GTC only to people we know and trust 100%.. but seriously, I know like three people who use GTCs, and I don't trust any of them 100%. I don't trust anyone in this game 100%. There should be some kind of guarantee that you won't lose money when selling GTCs.
Darwinia Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:10:00 - [15] On your second example, the GTC seller sold a GTC using the CCP developed SECURE method for the current (at the time) average price. In this situation, the where and how ISK was obtained to buy said time card is irrelevant, the GM should have not removed the ISK from the seller in the first place. ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs.
Destiny Calling Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:18:00 - [16] I sold something, and the chap I sold it too, bought it with ISK gained agianst the EULA. His account was banned, and the ISK he paid me was removed from my wallet, with out notice or communication. Also the item I sold him was not returned to me. I filed a petition within three days I had my ISK back. There process appers to be, ban said offenders, remove offending ISK, then investigate. All in all it works out well for the non guilty, just we are required to afford them a little patience. Destiny
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:19:00 - [17] Originally by: Darwinia On your second example, the GTC seller sold a GTC using the CCP developed SECURE method for the current (at the time) average price. In this situation, the where and how ISK was obtained to buy said time card is irrelevant, the GM should have not removed the ISK from the seller in the first place. I updated the OP, but at the time of writing he hadn't made the following post (although this post has been edited out again): Quote: I bought a time code. I sell time code secure through eve. All goes well. Later guy gets caught from buying isk (read eves response) Assume all of his purchases are taken back. Time code i sold him is in the purchase list. Thus taking the isk from me. Hence the situation was rather unclear since his post wasn't really all that well written to start with. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
torN Deception GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:47:00 - [18] Edited by: torN Deception on 27/08/2007 11:46:48 Originally by: CCP Prism X The real problem isn't the supply of ISK but the demand for buying virtual currency with hard cash.. AKA sloth mixed with ignorance. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=480961

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.08.27 12:06:00 - [19] Hot dang, I love my Goons. Post reserved for a counter-argument once argument is proposed to link my quote to posted link. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.27 12:09:00 - [20] Originally by: CCP Prism X Hot dang, I love my Goons. Post reserved for a counter-argument once argument is proposed to link my quote to posted link. Zomg this clearly shows favoritism towards the Goons coalition!!!11!!oneone Everyone to the spam mobiles! --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:07:00 - [21] Originally by: CCP Prism X Generic Noob buys 1 Trillion ISK. Example 1: Because Generic Noob has no idea about the real value of ISK he buys one of your BSs for half a trillion ISK. You get half a trillion ISK. GMs are alerted to Generic Noobs bad habits. One trillion ISK are removed from Generic Noobs wallet. Net result: You sold one BS and gained half a trillion ISK. Generic Noob now has a wallet balance of -half a trillion ISK and needs to work up his half a trillion ISK before he can do anything as there is almost always some fee involved in EvE. He also has a BS which he bought on credit. Example 2: You sell 5 years worth of GTC to generic noob for a trillion ISK (because he's got no clue). Generic Noob commits to 5 years of playing EvE. GMs remove 1 trillion ISK from his wallet. Generic Noob spends 1 year of those five getting back up to 0 balance. Now I've never been a GM so I dont know the full details. But in general this is how ISK buyers are dealth with. The sellers are of course banned as well but we all know that's rather futile. The real problem isn't the supply of ISK but the demand for buying virtual currency with hard cash.. AKA sloth mixed with ignorance. Exept that in both cases randomnoob will simply delete or not use the char with the 1 trillion debt. Restarting is in those cases a better and far easier option, especially if random noob is in fact a noob and as result not very old. So realistically the 1 trillion does not get removed from the economy because the debt will in most cases never be paid off.

GM Nova Game Masters	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:16:00 - [22] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: CCP Prism X Generic Noob buys 1 Trillion ISK. Example 1: Because Generic Noob has no idea about the real value of ISK he buys one of your BSs for half a trillion ISK. You get half a trillion ISK. GMs are alerted to Generic Noobs bad habits. One trillion ISK are removed from Generic Noobs wallet. Net result: You sold one BS and gained half a trillion ISK. Generic Noob now has a wallet balance of -half a trillion ISK and needs to work up his half a trillion ISK before he can do anything as there is almost always some fee involved in EvE. He also has a BS which he bought on credit. Example 2: You sell 5 years worth of GTC to generic noob for a trillion ISK (because he's got no clue). Generic Noob commits to 5 years of playing EvE. GMs remove 1 trillion ISK from his wallet. Generic Noob spends 1 year of those five getting back up to 0 balance. Now I've never been a GM so I dont know the full details. But in general this is how ISK buyers are dealth with. The sellers are of course banned as well but we all know that's rather futile. The real problem isn't the supply of ISK but the demand for buying virtual currency with hard cash.. AKA sloth mixed with ignorance. Exept that in both cases randomnoob will simply delete or not use the char with the 1 trillion debt. Restarting is in those cases a better and far easier option, especially if random noob is in fact a noob and as result not very old. So realistically the 1 trillion does not get removed from the economy because the debt will in most cases never be paid off. That is not entirely accurate because the random noob will never hold on to the ISK. The owner will try to get the trillion to his main character and that is the character which will suffer. Also, how plausible is it that anyone would sell a battleship for half a trillion?


CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:27:00 - [23] Ofcourse 'Generic Noob' is a term for 'some idiot' rather than a new player and the trillion is just some imagined number to show an extreme example. But you're right, I need to refrain from generic terms and be specific.. otherwise I'm misunderstood. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Joey Judas Gallente Ramraiders	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:03:00 - [24] I think most people are afraid of having their GTC sold ISK removed from their wallets, I know reading this thread is making me think twice before selling a GTC again....
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:44:00 - [25] Theres one thing that most ppl dont think about: Where do you think is the money going that the GTC seller spent for the GTC? It doesnt go to some ISK farming company, no. It goes to CCP (with a split to the GTC company perhaps, not sure about that part). So actualy the GTC seller is buying from CCP which is not a bad move Imo. Consider this part. Ship lovers click here
Denebola Rises Regalis Industria Scientia Entreprendre Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:59:00 - [26] Well, actually, I am thinking of starting to sell GTC, but only to people I know in game: e.g., my corp members - and then as a service to them, rather than as a way to acquire isk. I have TAXES for that!
Ampoliros Shadow Company FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:00:00 - [27] Edited by: Ampoliros on 27/08/2007 15:01:09 Edited by: Ampoliros on 27/08/2007 15:00:31 There was definitely one case on the forums a few weeks ago where someone sold (or more correctly, had someone buy) a torpedo for 6 billion isk - the GMs removed the money and gave him back his torpedo. I can't link the thread as the 'official' search is a bit wonky and EVEsearch isn't working...but its there. Anyway, glad to see the devs are out mingling with the general populace ------------------------------------ My statements are not those of my corp or of my alliance, nor anyone else. [Insert witty comment here]
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Ampoliros Edited by: Ampoliros on 27/08/2007 15:00:31 There was definitely one case on the forums a few weeks ago where someone sold (or more correctly, had someone buy) a torpedo for 6 billion isk - the GMs removed the money and gave him back his torpedo. I can't link the thread as the 'official' search is a bit wonky and EVEsearch isn't working...but its there. Anyway, glad to see the devs are out mingling with the little people special case, they guy reported it Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums: Quote: Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:12:00 - [29] Quote: Example 2: I sell GTC's someone with an illegimate isk supply buys from me, do I get the GTC returned? Even if that person would have used it? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=582942. If you sell a GTC insecurely, you can be screwed. This can be prevented! DO NOT SELL GTCS INSECURLY. I'm dangerous! Watch out!
Sharon Lynn	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:46:00 - [30] Originally by: CCP Prism X Generic Noob now has a wallet balance of -half a trillion ISK and needs to work up his half a trillion ISK before he can do anything as there is almost always some fee involved in EvE. Couldn't he just delete that character and start with a new character?

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:53:00 - [31] Oh come on, I already stated that 'Generic Noob' did not reference a 'Generic New Player' but a 'Generic Idiot'. The times when newbie/noob/nubhat/pony/nublet/newb/n00b only meant a new, inexperience, player of a game have long passed. Get with the program already. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:03:00 - [32] Edited by: Galk on 27/08/2007 16:03:37 Hi. I was just in the ingame mineral channel. A player reports that one of his corpies just got isk taken back, -270 for buying it from an outside source. I was wondering why (if his report is accurate) your not suspending his account for eula violation? Care to explain your policy on that, just incase iv'e misunderstood something. ______
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Galk I was wondering why (if his report is accurate) your not suspending his account for eula violation? Because they don't. The offender gets a slap on the wrist and his isk taken away, but no ban. Maybe persistent offenders get a ban, I don't know. I do know that CCP are waaaaay too soft on the buyers.
Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:08:00 - [34] Originally by: Zaqar Originally by: Galk I was wondering why (if his report is accurate) your not suspending his account for eula violation? Because they don't. The offender gets a slap on the wrist and his isk taken away, but no ban. Maybe persistent offenders get a ban, I don't know. I do know that CCP are waaaaay too soft on the buyers. I think that something as cruel as taking someones wallet into deep negatives and letting him live to tell the tale is a far better way to deal with potential future buyers. Urban legends and that sort of jazz.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.08.27 23:45:00 - [35] Only problem with the scenario as described by CCP Prism X is that it allows for laundering of bought isk. But it's not an easy problem, either you punish innocents or you allow laundering. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Sleepkevert Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 23:47:00 - [36] Originally by: Zaqar Originally by: Galk I was wondering why (if his report is accurate) your not suspending his account for eula violation? Because they don't. The offender gets a slap on the wrist and his isk taken away, but no ban. Maybe persistent offenders get a ban, I don't know. I do know that CCP are waaaaay too soft on the buyers. Yep, and going into minus ISK figures. The only real way to get back, is buying ISK again :( Aaand, another ISK seller is kept alive for another day. Sign my sig
Sharon Lynn	Posted - 2007.08.28 19:05:00 - [37] Edited by: Sharon Lynn on 28/08/2007 19:11:32 Originally by: CCP Prism X Oh come on, I already stated that 'Generic Noob' did not reference a 'Generic New Player' but a 'Generic Idiot'. The times when newbie/noob/nubhat/pony/nublet/newb/n00b only meant a new, inexperience, player of a game have long passed. Get with the program already. Please reread my question and if possible answer it. Edit: Maybe i'm not clear enough Can a 6 month old player,(who isn't a generic noob, but just someone who thought he could make some easy money in an illegal way) who has his wallet at -7 billion, just delete his character and start again?
Ironnight Caldari x13	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:02:00 - [38] Nice, keep up the good work, not that I wont miss killing clueless noobs in faction battleships.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:15:00 - [39] Reports still coming in though, if people are supposed to petition to get the isk refunded shouldn't that at least be communicated to the affected players during the transaction? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584110 I'm still confused to be honest, it's that I'm a forum ***** but people just loosing isk to GM's without being explained why is just plain creepy. For all I care send a standard evemail that their isk has been removed unless they can legitimately explain how they got that isk to start with? --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:17:00 - [40] wouldn't someone selling a battleship for 1/2 a trillion raise some suspicion at ccp? anyone up for suicide ganking 1-2month players in faction bses? (suppose the real question is will the loot be faction or t1?)
Netzoka Gallente IntoXication Inc	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:19:00 - [41] Edited by: Netzoka on 28/08/2007 20:19:44 Isn't it highly ironic that selling GTCs for ISK is a perfectly acceptable way of turning RL cash into ISK, yet buying it from a third party site is bannable? I don't see the logic...wait, no! CCP gains income when people buy GTCs, but not when buying form chinese farmers! Now I understand
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:04:00 - [42] Originally by: Sleepkevert Originally by: Zaqar Originally by: Galk I was wondering why (if his report is accurate) your not suspending his account for eula violation? Because they don't. The offender gets a slap on the wrist and his isk taken away, but no ban. Maybe persistent offenders get a ban, I don't know. I do know that CCP are waaaaay too soft on the buyers. Yep, and going into minus ISK figures. The only real way to get back, is buying ISK again :( Aaand, another ISK seller is kept alive for another day. Ratting, mission running, selling at buy level market prices (and so gaining less), getting a loan from friend (and making very clear to CCP that it is a loan). You can recover from negative isk, but it will be painful (and it is right so). I suspect that for some time you will be under observation so buying isk agains isn't a smart move. Some of the drawback can be attenuated operating with an alt (i.e. the alt on the sell orders he can pay the market tax).
Zantrei Kordisin True Centii	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Netzoka Edited by: Netzoka on 28/08/2007 20:19:44 Isn't it highly ironic that selling GTCs for ISK is a perfectly acceptable way of turning RL cash into ISK, yet buying it from a third party site is bannable? I don't see the logic...wait, no! CCP gains income when people buy GTCs, but not when buying form chinese farmers! Now I understand Not really. On the one hand, you have isk farmers and people hacking accounts/character scamming/etc, with no positive benefits at all, and on the other hand you have GTC's, which enable a lot of people to play the game, and do not cause more ISK to be injected into the economy, as all the ISK is made legitimately by players. The fact of the matter is, there will always be people that will use their real life financial status to gain advantages in internet spaceship games. Time codes are simply the far lesser of two evils. Now the matter is, stopping people from buying from the farmers/hackers. Stupid people...
Sertan Deras Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:38:00 - [44] So...it's okay to sell GTC's for in-game cash (effectively exchanging hard cash for ISK), because CCP gets their cut....but actually exchanging hard cash for ISK is "idiotic and lazy"? Wow, that's some spin right there :D I am all about the rules and such, so GTC's all the way for me...but I still find that statement really ironic.
Imperius Blackheart Caldari Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:45:00 - [45] Originally by: CCP Prism X Ofcourse 'Generic Noob' is a term for 'some idiot' rather than a new player and the trillion is just some imagined number to show an extreme example. But you're right, I need to refrain from generic terms and be specific.. otherwise I'm misunderstood. Gah, please don't be got at by people like that, I read your first post and understood and smiled as I did, I don't believe anyone can seriously misunderstand. I hate the way the community is starting to jump on devs, I apprechiate your personality and helpfulness in replying at all. Thanks Prism.
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:52:00 - [46] Edited by: Aramendel on 28/08/2007 21:53:44 Originally by: GM Nova That is not entirely accurate because the random noob will never hold on to the ISK. The owner will try to get the trillion to his main character and that is the character which will suffer. Also, how plausible is it that anyone would sell a battleship for half a trillion? Logically, yes. However Prismn X stated that that exactly doesn't happen. WHich was the reason I replied. And, of cource, there are other untraceable ways to "exchange" goods without using the trade/market/contract system. Unless eve has IDs for every item so it can be retraced no matter who owns it?
Zantrei Kordisin True Centii	Posted - 2007.08.28 22:04:00 - [47] Originally by: Sertan Deras So...it's okay to sell GTC's for in-game cash (effectively exchanging hard cash for ISK), because CCP gets their cut....but actually exchanging hard cash for ISK is "idiotic and lazy"? Wow, that's some spin right there :D I am all about the rules and such, so GTC's all the way for me...but I still find that statement really ironic. So you say there is no difference between paying ISK farmers and hackers, compared to paying for someone elses subscription? Personally I would prefer the latter. As I said in a previous post, people are always going to buy ISK, CCP can't completely stop isk selling, no company can - see Blizzard for example. It may aswell be regulated to be expensive and provide a benefit to the community.
Lurtz Caldari Gunrunners and Gamblers	Posted - 2007.08.29 02:10:00 - [48] this is good, but example 1, it would be easy to launder the funds if the isk is bought by a 'noob' and transfered via an absurd contract to a friend. The isk is removed from the 'noob' and thrown into a negative balance, but the 'noob' was there for that purpose as an intermediary. If someone is willing to pay the $20 for a new account under any fake name and disposable debit card, they can buy isk, and transfer it to their real character via that 500 billion is battleship.... or more likely single unit of trit.....
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.08.29 02:13:00 - [49] Originally by: Carniflex You can end up with noticeable negative wallet balance. It's possible to get also banned for buying isk, altho I have not heard that happen to anyone I know. I personally would ban all isk buyers. Permanently. If crime does not pay ppl usually dont do it, eh ? then they make a new char. buy more isk and buy a new char. "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein
Suzette LaVie	Posted - 2007.08.29 07:50:00 - [50] Originally by: CCP Prism X Ofcourse 'Generic Noob' is a term for 'some idiot' rather than a new player and the trillion is just some imagined number to show an extreme example. But you're right, I need to refrain from generic terms and be specific.. otherwise I'm misunderstood. Not sure members of the dev team should be referring to members of the community of players, potential isk buyers/EULA violators or not, as "some idiot(s.)" Just saying.
Sicil Fioet Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.29 08:23:00 - [51] Originally by: Sertan Deras So...it's okay to sell GTC's for in-game cash (effectively exchanging hard cash for ISK), because CCP gets their cut....but actually exchanging hard cash for ISK is "idiotic and lazy"? Wow, that's some spin right there :D I am all about the rules and such, so GTC's all the way for me...but I still find that statement really ironic. It is idiotic because if you get traced and ISK gets taken from you, congratulations you just got scammed by ISK farmers. The real life cash you paid for it does not get removed from them by CCP. So you lost cash and product that you paid for. I do not know how their service works but something tells me that ISK farmers are not going to refund you. And doing some kind of a chargeback to force them to pay money back will just mean they won't ever sell ISK to you again. If you were extra stupid your main is now billions in debt and unable to earn any money to use. Sure you can delete it, but you'll lose months of training. And this is all meanwhile there is an approved method of buying ISK. So yeah, using a way to purchase ISK that it illegal according to EULA, risking getting scammed for real life money while there is a way that guarantees you will get your ISK and won't be scammed is "idiotic" imho.
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.29 09:15:00 - [52] The penalty for buying isk should not be a negative wallet, it should be deletion of all characters on your account.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.29 09:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Tom Gunn The penalty for buying isk should not be a negative wallet, it should be deletion of all characters on your account. CCP would loose a customer and they dont like that. Ship lovers click here
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.29 10:15:00 - [54] oh, i know CCP don't ban them because they are worried about losing revenue, it doesn't excuse it from being a bad business ethic, especially for a company that has had a recent grey history. When the message ccp are sending to cheats is 'if we catch you, we'll slap your wrists but everything will be okay' it hardly acts as a deterrant. As for banning the supplier, well as the above CCP poster already pointed out, it isn't really effective, since they'll just create half a dozen more, that doesn't mean nothing can be done about them, all it means is that the current standards and practices in place aren't effective. CCP really need to take more responsibility regarding cheats (both buyers and sellers of isk) and a much stronger stance on catching them rather than paying it lip service. If i'm a player who doesn't want to farm and instead wants to buy isk, knowing my char who's just learned to fly a HAC or BS will be banned if i buy isk is going to be a much stronger deterrant to do so than if I just stand to have it taken from me. At the moment its just a gamble, $20 or whatever for X amount of isk, if i'm caught i just lose the isk - but with more to lose, it becomes less desirable to engage in cheating in the first place. This doesn't just mean a harder stance on how cheats are dealt with when caught, but more preemptive measures - actual spam account creation - monitoring new accounts with the same credit card details, or accounts that are paid for via GTC's to see if they engage in so dubbed 'macro mining/ratting' Since eve is essentially a huge database, you can get tons of information on player activities with well written queries.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.29 10:43:00 - [55] Edited by: Shevar on 29/08/2007 10:43:53 Originally by: Tom Gunn oh, i know CCP don't ban them because they are worried about losing revenue, it doesn't excuse it from being a bad business ethic, especially for a company that has had a recent grey history. When the message ccp are sending to cheats is 'if we catch you, we'll slap your wrists but everything will be okay' it hardly acts as a deterrant. As for banning the supplier, well as the above CCP poster already pointed out, it isn't really effective, since they'll just create half a dozen more, that doesn't mean nothing can be done about them, all it means is that the current standards and practices in place aren't effective. CCP really need to take more responsibility regarding cheats (both buyers and sellers of isk) and a much stronger stance on catching them rather than paying it lip service. If i'm a player who doesn't want to farm and instead wants to buy isk, knowing my char who's just learned to fly a HAC or BS will be banned if i buy isk is going to be a much stronger deterrant to do so than if I just stand to have it taken from me. At the moment its just a gamble, $20 or whatever for X amount of isk, if i'm caught i just lose the isk - but with more to lose, it becomes less desirable to engage in cheating in the first place. This doesn't just mean a harder stance on how cheats are dealt with when caught, but more preemptive measures - actual spam account creation - monitoring new accounts with the same credit card details, or accounts that are paid for via GTC's to see if they engage in so dubbed 'macro mining/ratting' Since eve is essentially a huge database, you can get tons of information on player activities with well written queries. Considering the ammount of posts and stories im hearing ingame enough people are already having falsely removed their isk because some tard that bought isk bought some items from them. You want those people to be banned instead of having lost money? Because that is what this thread is about, people putting items on the market which in turn are bought by players who bought ISK and then suddenly the person who put the item on the market has that money removed by the GM's (which sometimes is refunded after long petition woes). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.29 10:59:00 - [56] Thats not what I said, reread, i'm talking about the people actually doing the buying/selling.
Sophie Daigneau	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:01:00 - [57] No but wait a sec, what's the final word then? Will I or will I NOT get the money taken from me if I sold a BS to an isk buyer? Because to me it seems from the GM response above that it won't, I'll still be half a trillion isk richer right? I'm all confused now If you don't loose the isk it's just a nice way to launder the cash isn't it?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:14:00 - [58] Originally by: Sophie Daigneau No but wait a sec, what's the final word then? Will I or will I NOT get the money taken from me if I sold a BS to an isk buyer? Because to me it seems from the GM response above that it won't, I'll still be half a trillion isk richer right? I'm all confused now If you don't loose the isk it's just a nice way to launder the cash isn't it? If you get isk directly from an isk seller (even if for a mistake; as the above mentioned example of the player getting 6 billions for 1 torp) they are removed. If you aren't an isk buyer and you got the isk from a market sale the sold item is returned. If you get the isk from someone buying isk and paying approximately normal market prices you normally keep the isk. If you get the isk from someone buying isk and paying some disproportionate amount they are removed. If you can prove that you are not part of a laundering attempt you get the item back. That at least is what I get from the different posts in the last months. The worst position is being in the one in ther third example, as proving you are not part of a laundering attempt isn't easy. If you get too much isk from a sale it can be best to petition.
Karlemgne The Malevolent	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:23:00 - [59] Originally by: Tom Gunn The penalty for buying isk should not be a negative wallet, it should be deletion of all characters on your account. Never, ever, and I mean never, ever gonna happen.
Usarua	Posted - 2007.09.13 10:28:00 - [60] Edited by: Usarua on 13/09/2007 10:34:53 as someone else stated, buyers are part of the problem. there's always going to be someone wanting to make money sellign isk, 3 bil or so peopel in the world? but there's a far more limited number of people wanting to play this game. can you see where Im going with this? its far easier to police 150k people than a possible 100 million, after all you take into account false information and throw away CCs, the fact that there are countries in the world where 5$ an hour is a FAR more lucrative business venture than private sector, and you have the makings of millions of potential isk sellers. the punishments should be just as bad for the buyers, after all, if everyone is afraid to buy, the isk sellers have no market. I think the isk buyer should be allowed to twist in the wind for a week, so they feel they are in the clear, spend all their money on items, and then get all their isk and items wiped, be reset to rookie status and given a noob ship. there should then be a message explaining that they have to start the game completely over for cheating, and that while they tried to gain an unfair advantage, they simply wasted their own time and money. that would quickly make all potential buyers think twice, and you could reduce it maybe even to the point the isk sellers have no viable market in Eve. also, I dont know why, but people either think they can get away with it, or they never read the dont buy isk rule.. there should be a large screen that has to have check boxes all clicked in order to advance, the first time you play the game. I.e.: [] Isk selling is illegal and terms for removal of all isk (if CCP doesnt use my above recommendation ) from the purchasing account, which means you're out money for nothing and allowed a farmer to cheat you and us. [] you will not act stupidly in rookie help. <- big one there. [] you will explore the game on your own, with all the tabs and options and buttons of the keyboard, and right or left click everything of even remote interest, instead of wanting spoon fed information. (gotta love those people that say, how do you move your ship in rookie chat when the tutorial tells them) [] The best way to make money is by finding out how to do whatever task you want to do in the game efficiently. I think this would be more than enough to make the whole new player integration a lot smoother.

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