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Trading tax on corp members

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Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:33:00 - [1] Hi CCP and community. The current tax system on members is almost good except that members can get away with trading tax via market and contracts. Will you, CCP give us a feature soon to tax members on their trading income e.g. transaction amount above X ISKs is subjected to corporate tax? Current tax system only taxes on bounties above Y ISKs. :( I am sure corporate leaders in this community would like to have this feature. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:38:00 - [2] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/08/2007 13:42:31 Naa, a system would be next to useless just because there's no 1 tax rate on trades that would be fair for all. Sold ore & Rat loot could use a higher tax rate, but trading for isk would be all but ruined by pretty much any tax rate. Also it even gets more complicated when you add in refine taxes for player owned outposts. Did they already get taxed as a % of much needed ore? Are they going to get double taxed because of it? There's also a whole bunch of other details on what's being sold, who it's being sold to, what the isk is needed for, and stuff like that that it would just never be viable to use "and still be fair". ___________ Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes. DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:49:00 - [3] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2007 13:51:27 Well DubanFP, the bounty system is the same. A 40% tax on a newb for a 40k rat is also unfair when you impose a 40% tax on a vet for a 1M rat. The vet won't feel the sting as much as a newb in my humble opinion. It is the same reasoning isn't it? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ethaet Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:50:00 - [4] If your corp has a 40% tax then you need a new one! ----- CONCORD Notice: Don't drink and fly. Drunken jumping can result in loss of ship through "navigational error". Seems familiar?
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:56:00 - [5] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/08/2007 13:57:07 Originally by: Ethaet If your corp has a 40% tax then you need a new one! Actually that's quite wrong. One of our partner corps in D-L has a tax of 40% and it's quite reasonable considering the benifits that come with it "ship replacement, the upkeep for our 2 outposts, ect" Also to Jenny, the thing is the people in your corp that's doing the ratting are generally going to killing stuff around the same level of difficulty. However people are going to be all over the place with trading no matter what, and the situations are sort of like what you said but differs VASTLY, especially when you consider that most of what you make when you trade you already had to pay for in the first place. ___________ Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes. DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included?
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:58:00 - [6] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/08/2007 13:57:07 Originally by: Ethaet If your corp has a 40% tax then you need a new one! Actually that's quite wrong. One of our partner corps in D-L has a tax of 40% and it's quite reasonable considering the benifits that come with it "ship replacement, the upkeep for our 2 outposts, ect" Also to Jenny, the thing is the people in your corp that's doing the ratting are generally going to killing stuff around the same level of difficulty. However people are going to be all over the place with trading no matter what, and the situations are sort of like what you said but differs VASTLY, especially when you consider that most of what you make when you trade you already had to pay for in the first place. please, enlighten me to those benefits? ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
CrayC Gallente CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:58:00 - [7] My corp runs a 100% Tax... I wish it would work on everything
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:01:00 - [8] I see your point. So when someone kills a faction spawn and gets a Estemel something, corp gains a few hundred K ISKs from the bounty and corp misses out on a few million ISKs on the sale? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ghost Goat	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I see your point. So when someone kills a faction spawn and gets a Estemel something, corp gains a few hundred K ISKs from the bounty and corp misses out on a few million ISKs on the sale? Yes , and thats the way it should be , one of the worst ideas ever . if some1 feels the need to assist his corp further more , he/she can always donate some of the isk gained by trade back to the corp wallet , thats far better way then adding more tax's. if i invest my hard earned isk in trade , and it got nothing to do with mission loot , why should my corp get a piece of that ?
Wufong Wei Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:40:00 - [10] More options is always good...though I would be wondering where all the money was going if a corp I was in did this (I don't think the SAK is going to do this anytime soon :)

4rc4ng3L Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:15:00 - [11] if i spend my time going through the market and putting in alot of work to make good sales, why should the corp profit from my invested time and isk... If corps need isk you run a corp op to get some, your idea is ridiculous to say the least ------------------------------*
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:17:00 - [12] if you build your outpost you can get there ------ Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:18:00 - [13] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 27/08/2007 15:18:50 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I see your point. So when someone kills a faction spawn and gets a Estemel something, corp gains a few hundred K ISKs from the bounty and corp misses out on a few million ISKs on the sale? The real problem is profitmargins. YOu want to tax profit and not revenue, since since you might have members who live off bulk trading at low margins, as well as people who sell small quantities at high margins. What would you consider a fair tax rate for a guy buying trit at 2.45 per unit and selling at 2.50, as well as for the guy buying Corpum X types at 600m and selling at 850m? The first has a profit margin of 2%, the other of 40+%. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:25:00 - [14] this would be fine if the tax was applied in reverse to market purchases for example, if I buy and sell commodities to make personal profit, the corp could tax 10% of the actual profit by doing this. compare the following 2 examples: tax only on sales: 1. buy 20,000 units for 50 each. spend 1,000,000. 2. sell 20,000 units for 75 each. earn 1,500,000. raw profit 50% 3. subtract 10%, 1,500,000 - 150,000 = 1,350,000. 4. overall personal profit = 1,350,000 - 1,000,000 = 350,000, or 35% tax on sales and negative tax on purchases: 1. buy 20,000 units for 50 each. spend 1,000,000 - 100,000 corp tax, net 900,000. 2. sell 20,000 units for 75 each. earn 1,500,000. raw profit 50% 3. subtract 10% corp tax, 1,500,000 - 150,000 = 1,350,000. 4. overall personal profit = 1,350,000 - 900,000 = 450,000, for 50% overall corp profit = 150,000 - 100,000 = 50,000, for 50% in the second case, the profit margin is preserved, and the corp only taxes the actual profit. if EVERY means of ISK income and expenses is taxed, then it should balance out, except for all those bounties and trades below the threshold... ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:26:00 - [15] There's a reason why in real life you only get taxed(personal not transaction tax) on the total income at the end of the year not per transaction. If you buy something for 5k and sell it for 5.5k you've made 500$ not 5.5k. It would be ridiculous getting taxed on 5.5k because then you'd actually be losing money not making it. ----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation."
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:32:00 - [16] Edited by: PhantomVyper on 27/08/2007 15:33:01 Edit: nvm, I'm a moron...
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:13:00 - [17] tax miners first! - putting the gist back into logistics
Fswd	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:19:00 - [18] Tax trolls first, there are plenty of those --- Free exotic dancers for mods that mod my sig Snip Please do not discuss moderation in your signature. -Yipsilanti ([email protected]) <-- freebie for you
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:22:00 - [19] Yea,,, but,, what would stop them from just transferring the stuff to an alt?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2007 17:59:03 fswd: Post with your main or please do not post at all, or at least say something more than a sentence. Lord Dynastron: They would be kicked from corp eventually and no rich and loaded space for them to find faction spawns. WarlockX: Taxing on profit margins would be too difficult for CCP's programming team to implement. It would be easier to tax on transactions instead. Trade tax is to help managing corp easier because chasing after slackers for ISKs is like watching paint dry. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.

Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2007 17:59:03 fswd: Post with your main or please do not post at all, or at least say something more than a sentence. Lord Dynastron: They would be kicked from corp eventually and no rich and loaded space for them to find faction spawns. WarlockX: Taxing on profit margins would be too difficult for CCP's programming team to implement. It would be easier to tax on transactions instead. Trade tax is to help managing corp easier because chasing after slackers for ISKs is like watching paint dry. please address my problem, what tax would be appropriate considering you will have members who trade at 2% profit but with bulk, and people who trade at 50-500 or more percent profit. Or in short, it don't work. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:28:00 - [22] Draco: Since you have asked nicely, I will reply. This is an idea in the midst and would require refining if we insist on CCP to give us this tax feature. I did say apply tax on green numbers above X ISKs or something along those lines. Anything below the threshold is members own personal allowances. I honestly do not think CCP could implement a proper corp tax on profit margin because it would require heavy book-keeping on ledgers. It is not like we could set for drone with A ISKs bounty, tax B much or drone with C ISKs bounty, tax D much. I am thinking of something keep it slightly simple. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Draco: Since you have asked nicely, I will reply. This is an idea in the midst and would require refining if we insist on CCP to give us this tax feature. I did say apply tax on green numbers above X ISKs or something along those lines. Anything below the threshold is members own personal allowances. I honestly do not think CCP could implement a proper corp tax on profit margin because it would require heavy book-keeping on ledgers. It is not like we could set for drone with A ISKs bounty, tax B much or drone with C ISKs bounty, tax D much. I am thinking of something keep it slightly simple. Being a bit of a tax specialist in reallife, I have to tell you what you want is not possible. You are looking to implement something akin to a VAT. The problem with VAT is that it is a type of tax that depends heavily on administration or it will either ruin the economy, or be easily circumvented. CCP cannot implement a corp tax like that, that will actually work. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Petter Sandstad Taggart Transdimensional Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:47:00 - [24] I wonder why all the communistic corps are so eager to destroy themselves. As for me I don't care whether such a tax change is implemented or not, TTI are not communists.
Mo adib	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:53:00 - [25] 1st thing: to come on to a forum filled by a much higher majority players then corp leaders and talk about taxing everyone more is not gonna get you helpful replies.... thats rule number 1 2nd thing: this is an assumption but a safe one I think;most players that are not primarily industry focused use an alt to handle their trading, its anonymous, easy to train, and doesnt tie up your character anywhere. combining points 1 and 2 I think this is a bad idea, if you want something like this then ask your corp members donate a portion of their proceeds to the corp if they are earning through non taxable methods. If they are the type that will not donate cause they dont think they can get caught avoiding it then I point you back to the 2nd thing.
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:58:00 - [26] Won't work for traders in your corp, for simple fact that traders buy then sell. the cost to acquire goods to put up for sale would not be able to be taken into consideration. If my profit margin is 25%, and corp tax is 10%, and i pay 2% for buy order and 2% for sell order, my profit margin would be 11.xx%, depending on skills. If the profit margin only was taxed, that would be great, but the datavase already has to track too much data.... Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.27 19:20:00 - [27] If people want to evade such a system, they can easily create a trade alt and pass everything to it via private contracts that no-one else can see when doing searches. In the case of valuable loot, there's no public record of what drops, so a corp could never prove anything if the kill wasn't witnessed. You could always request corp members' full API keys. It wouldn't prevent people from making 'illicit' profits on trading, but a really mean CEO could audit everyone's dealings (including their trade alts on that account) and threaten to boot them if they didn't pay the requested taxes. A more friendly option would be to add a 'Donate x% of proceeds to corp' option when entering sell orders, where x is set by the person entering the order. Combined with the full API key auditing, this might work. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Tunak	Posted - 2007.08.27 20:10:00 - [28] Tunak hands item to market alt. Market alt sells item. Tunak wonders why everyone is complaining about the new corp transaction tax.
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 21:16:00 - [29] clearly it's impossible to tax someone that does not wish to be taxed. so for big items that are worth 800m, ppl will obviously go out of their way to make sure they don't take a tax hit on it and there's no system that could stop them no matter how complex. ----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation."
Goonie Alt	Posted - 2007.08.27 22:30:00 - [30] Contract to a trade alt and sell it that way, bypassing any and all taxes.



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