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Caldreean Dawnwalkers	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:27:00 - [61] Ok, I'll just start up my new Corp "Alt Traders Tax Evaders". It's even kinda sezzy 'cause it rhymes. Who wants to join? Checkmate.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:28:00 - [62] If you are under a corp that takes tax seriously and if the corp sees you not paying your taxes, you will be kicked or left alone in 0.0. I think that is fair. Game over? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:38:00 - [63] if i got taxed on the market sales i do, my alt will do it, what i sell in my peronal assets the corp has no right to, the corp is a comunity people put stuff in the corp to make it survive. bounty is enought for tax's to get the corp some isk to start its own business like a pos tree or trading, u gotta think of a corp as a actual player where u trade for it mine for it and make money for it. you gotta think of it this way, if ur selling a dread for 2 bill and there is no tax, u log off and log back in and find the dread has been sold but the tax rate was 100% at the time of the sale, tbh if that happend the corp will have mass exodus or the ceos and directoers will be kos lol.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:46:00 - [64] Tonkin: It is good that you bring that up. Well, when you list orders or contracts for sale, they could be tied to the current corp tax to protect members from dodgy CEOs or directors. The effective tax is the time when you put orders up or modify them. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.08.29 20:56:00 - [65] Edited by: Frug on 29/08/2007 20:56:35 Originally by: Tonkin if i got taxed on the market sales i do, my alt will do it, what i sell in my peronal assets the corp has no right to, the corp is a comunity people put stuff in the corp to make it survive. bounty is enought for tax's to get the corp some isk to start its own business like a pos tree or trading, u gotta think of a corp as a actual player where u trade for it mine for it and make money for it. you gotta think of it this way, if ur selling a dread for 2 bill and there is no tax, u log off and log back in and find the dread has been sold but the tax rate was 100% at the time of the sale, tbh if that happend the corp will have mass exodus or the ceos and directoers will be kos lol. If you want to waste your time avoiding helping your corp by using a trading alt I don't really see the problem. If I was the CEO and I noticed you were evading taxes, I'd just kick you. That sounds fine for me. If you're so against the idea and think no corp has the "right" to tax you on what you transfer, even if, say, you're MINING with your corp's protection or in space they control, join a corp with no trading taxes. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 20:59:00 - [66] If your corpmates are avoiding their taxes, ask them to donate or kick them out. If you don't want to do either of those, let them continue to trade as they always have, collecting the taxes you always do.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:05:00 - [67] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Venkul: It is gross profit in the context of market trading - profit takings less the cost of the goods sold. But you are not suggesting that. You have suggested no system to calculate the costs. You only suggest to tax the revenue from selling, without any compensation for the cost incurred. So as much as you try to weasel it, you are taxing total income.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:18:00 - [68] Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. Way less than perfect, it will be circunvented by people shifting the isk to other characters the last day, it will penalize you if you have just done that big sale or blown your ship and got the insurance and give you a bonus (in the form of a reduced or 0 tax) if you have sold your stuff a week ago and just brought a capital ship. The only option would be if the system keep a trace of every transaction, delete player donations and insurance payout and tax the resulting difference. The problem there would be for ratters/mission runners that would be taxed 2 times. So the introduction of a generalized income tax would require the cancellation of the tax on bounties and mission rewards. I am not sure it would be a good idea as the burden on the database would be serious, but maybe most of the data could be recovered from the wallet witouth further database access and the calculations done during DT.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:25:00 - [69] Originally by: Major Stallion It shouldnt be any more difficult than this: 1) CEO imposes a corp tax of 15% 2) Ratters pay 15% of their bounties as usual. 3) Market Players pay 15% of their sales to the corp tax Easy as 1-2-3...and you wouldnt run into the "OMG I HAVE ORDERS ON THE MARKET AND THE CEO CHANGED THE TAX TO 100%" because the tax would be paid at the time of the order placement as opposed to after the order is completed (as it is right now with sales tax). Ratter cost = ammunition, occasional blown ship Seller cost = building cost of the item or purchase cost Tax on putting item on market: ops someone underbid my and I did not sold, must lower the price of my 50.000 T2 shots by 50 isk each, dammit beside the 2,5 million lost lowering the price I have lost another 375.000 to a tax on isk I will not get. Unless you somehow subtract the production cost you are taxing total income, and that will strangle all traders in corporations (an you will see tons of 1 man trading corporations).
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:27:00 - [70] I think the issue has to do with a game design... Player Corps only get to tax ISK 1 time, when it's created... Trade does not create ISK, it transfers it... Missions and Ratting Creates the ISK. If you are going to tax profits, how much value do you place on work? would your miners end up paying a huge part of their profits in taxes because you do not value their efforts? (Sale without purchase = 100% profit) All in all, if the player corp needs more funds, ask for them, let the players that have it donate...taxing all the profits from your members would seem to me to be a quick way to end up with a 1 person corp... Also, as a member of a corp, if you are looking for a way to avoid the corp taxes, you are in the wrong corp... --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Falbala Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:30:00 - [71] Why not be reasonable? Corp pays for offices, labs, and other stuff, you divide this amount by the number of members and that's what they need to pay. Some extra to pay BPOs and other investment ok. Some more to pay eventually share benefits? No way. If there are benefits it must come from the corp side, not the members. If the corp doesn't make money by itself then the CEO doesn't do the job properly and must be kicked. Make money with the corps and don't tax your members above the reasonable.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:06:00 - [72] As if there aren't enough taxes in real life, now people want to tax Monopoly money, too... First of all, equating profits from ratting to profits from industry/trade is ridiculous. If I go shoot a battleship spawn in 0.0, I receive millions of isk at the expendature of a trivial amount of ammo. In effect, this is a 100% profit transaction, so taking some percentage of that cuts only into the profits I make. If, on the other hand, I build a battleship for 60 mil and sell it for 65 mil, your 40% tax rate means that I am paying my corp about 21 mil every time I sell a ship. While this may make sense to a communist, why would anyone go into trade or industry, instead of ratting? So the response, of course, is to raise prices. The same ship now has to cost more than 100 mil, since at 100 mil (minus taxes) I break even. But here's the problem: what if my competitor owns his own corp, and has a 0% tax rate? Now I have to sell the battleship for 100 mil to break even, but he sells for 80 mil and makes 20 mil profit for himself. Seeing this (and assuming I have some interest in generating isk, which is likely if I went into business) I have only one response - I switch to my competitors corp, or start my own corp. The end result of this, of course, is that all industrial/trade characters will either stop producing, or will migrate to corps with low or no taxes, so they won't have to pay any. Why not just skip the painful transition and leave the system as it is now? For the record, there already is a transaction tax on all market transactions. Technically, two of them, if you include the broker's fees. If some form of taxation on transactions is deemed absolutely necessary, then the easiest way to do it would be to double the existing transaction tax, and redirect half of it to the seller's corp. By the way, did Jenny Spitfire get sold again? -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Falbala Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:11:00 - [73] Why i don't get is why you don't produce and sell the ship with your corp. Have them pay the BPC, the factory, help on mining and hauling the mineral then sell it and share benefits. It's how it is supposed to work. If you have PE5, RE5, can use the best hauler, conduct a mining barge, have trade and social skills to level 5 then what do you need a corp for in first place?
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:37:00 - [74] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi CCP and community. The current tax system on members is almost good except that members can get away with trading tax via market and contracts. Will you, CCP give us a feature soon to tax members on their trading income e.g. transaction amount above X ISKs is subjected to corporate tax? Current tax system only taxes on bounties above Y ISKs. :( I am sure corporate leaders in this community would like to have this feature. :) Corp-tax free loot sales are what sustain the more obscene bounty tax rates currently in place with certain corporations. There is no need to tax trades or sales.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.30 08:13:00 - [75] If you want to implement more corp taxes, might I suggest the following, because whatever you may think, introducing a trade tax like you are suggesting, WILL NOT WORK. - Lump sum tax. Corp sets a tax of X per month, to be deducted automatically on the first of each month - Wealth tax. Corp takes X percent of your total cash holdings each month, and it could be possible to have the system automatically calculate the value of your assets and tax them. Maybe even add a big list of stuff, where you can deviate the tax rate on an item. For example, you could tax hulks at 10% of their value each month, and battleships on 0.5% Lump sum tax is easy, and not very disruptive. Wealth tax is more diffilcult to implement, though still not extremely disruptive (though probably very impopular), it is also easy to circumvent though. But unlike your trade tax/VAT proposal, it would not automatically end up as a huge cluster****. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.08.30 08:44:00 - [76] What they need to classify income into different groups and allow the corp to set a specific tax rate on all of them. They would also need to track purchases and have an option for those to be deducted. Classifications: (off the top of my head, for example purposes only, aka. don't flame cause I left something out) T1 modules (mission running/standard ratting loot) T2 modules (industrialist making pure profit \| PvPer replacing gear) Faction stuff (trading \| officer spawn) Ships (industrialist making some profit \| PvPer replacing gear) Minerals (industrialist buying materials \| mission running/standard ratting loot) POS stuff (industrialist making some profit \| trading) A corp could set it such that the amount of purchases in minerals is subtracted from the sold amount in ships and POS and only a positive value is taxed. That way only the industrialist's profit is taxed. Further subtracting the cost of faction stuff from the profit of faction stuff would mean that only the trader's profit is taxed. Thus traders will now have to pay corp taxes (unlike the current system) but won't be utterly screwed (like under the OP's system). A corp could also cut their PvPers a break by deducting ship and module costs from their ratting income so if they loose ships defending the corp they will pay less taxes while the industrialists (that didn't risk/loose anything) will still pay full taxes on their profit.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.30 08:58:00 - [77] How would you deal with the following in a 'simple' trade tax 1. Mr X. mines 333 unit of veldspar and refines it into 1000 units of tritanium and sells the 1000 units for 2.5 isk per unit, how much tax does he pay? 2. Mr X. buys 1000 units of trit for 2.4 trit per unit, and sells it for 2.5 trit per unit. How much tax does he pay? 3. Mr X. buys 1000 units of tritanium, and loots a 100mn MWD from a gate rat. He refined the MWD, and uses the materials and the 1000 units of trit he bought to build a raven, which he sells for 100m. How much tax does he pay? And what if he sold it for 80m, because he needed the isk fast? You invent me a number of taxrules for a trade tax that don't require huge administration, are not horribly unfair, don't ruin the market completely, and are not easily circumvented, and I am sure I can get you a job at the Treasury department I work at ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Ima Nub	Posted - 2007.08.30 09:31:00 - [78] I always thought taxes are a fundamentally ridiculous way of securing income from the corporations members. You've got to assume the corp members want the best for the corp or they wouldn't be there in the first place, or at least be kicked after a little while. Also, taxes are in a way like concord hehe. Lets see if I can explain this. When you shoot someone in highsec concord comes and punishes you right? But if you somehow survive that punishment it's seen as an exploit. Why? Concords retribution is like the tax - it's 10% tax or 10000 dps - you deal with it and if you somehow survive it why should you have to attone even further? It's like saying ooh eeer we didn't really count on you surviving that, here have some more dps/pay more. So in other words, having taxes is like saying members don't need to contribute in any other way. It's saying ok you can be in this corp but you have to pay 10% of your income. Fine, just don't ask me for anything else then you stingy bastards! And no I don't expect anyone to understand what I just wrote
cuteboylookingatyou	Posted - 2007.08.30 10:08:00 - [79] GTFO. You are not a good CEO if you need to force a tax on your members to get them to contribute to the corp at all. Rewards are the only thing affected by tax because it makes it easier for both parties. If you noticed most corps not full of newbies have the tax set at 0.
Sae Len	Posted - 2007.08.30 10:44:00 - [80] Instead of trying to implement a horribly complicated tax system, I would like to see an option to use a much simpler one. Right now corp taxes apply only to ratters and mission runners. Producers and traders contribute nothing. So how about an option to instead of taxing bounties have everyone contribute same amount of ISK into corp wallet automatically every week say? And since it would not be fair to newbies to make them pay same as older players there should be the ability to set the income proportional to age of character. So for example everyone who has a character that is 3 month of younger contributes 200K to the corp wallet each week. Everyone who's got 3-6 month old char contirbutes 1 mil each week, and so on. Since people might have alts in corp, make it also possible to exclude certain members in corp from this tax so no one pays double or triple. Anyone with negative wallet balance would not be able to be taxed and CEO would get a notice. This would discourage people accepting ISK buyers into their corps for example. It would also discourage people going inactive in corps that would use such a system as you'd just get your wallet sucked dry. Or at least telling the CEO that you're gonna go inactive so that he can turn this tax off for you for the duration. But it should just be an optional feature, one corps can switch to instead of the bounty tax system that we have now if they want.
Eve Innovative Eve Innovative Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:16:00 - [81] Originally by: Sae Len .................. And since it would not be fair to newbies to make them pay same as older players there should be the ability to set the income proportional to age of character. So for example everyone who has a character that is 3 month of younger contributes 200K to the corp wallet each week. ............ How could it be fair to use a char's age for that ? * A 3 year old char, but have been out of game multiple times and have no more skills than an 9 month old player.... * A 3 year old char, but he/she is only a few days every month and don't make much isk....
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:03:00 - [82] Malachon: If the corp taxes 10% on income above 10M then, 1) Tax free - personal allowance. 2) Tax free - personal allowance. 3) He would pay 10M in tax for selling the Raven at 100M. If he sold for 80M, he would pay 8M in tax. What is so huge about this tax administration system? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:19:00 - [83] Edited by: cal nereus on 30/08/2007 22:23:50 Profit. Most people don't sell something if they gets a net loss after taxes. Why else do you think governments choose not to have high taxes? If the taxes are too high then a market deal that might've yielded profit would no longer yield profit (may even cause loss) and thus the deal won't happen. Or in the case of Eve, an alt will just make the deal instead. If, in order to get a profit under a no-tax situation, someone had to sell at 90million, then they are given a 10% tax, they need to mark up the price to 100million. But if the market is such that no one buys, then they can't sell it, and they need to avoid the tax somehow (using an alt).
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:25:00 - [84] That is the point. If they avoid tax after a while they will be left alone in 0.0 or somewhere in a hell-hole. That is a fair punishment for evading corp tax. :) Corp tax is to help to achieve a corp goal and to make collecting dues easily. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:26:00 - [85] So why not just kick them and keep only corp-mates who donate isk from trades? Seems faster and doesn't require any changes in the tax system.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:29:00 - [86] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/08/2007 22:30:53 Coz as said for more than three times, corp tax also makes collecting dues easily. Jenny > Hello Cal. Cal > Hello. Jenny > Pay-up. Cal > What? Have to go now sorry, Mummy is calling. Jenny > K k, bye. Remember to pay-up. Cal > Sure, sure. * Cal forgets to pay up until next month. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:34:00 - [87] Yes, because we want tax collecting to be easy? Honestly, I'm 100% behind you Jenny if you decide to kick a tax-evader. But I'm hesitant about making it built-in to the system.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:36:00 - [88] Thank you for you support, Cal. Let's try to make this request a success. :) Current system: Tax on bounties. Proposed system: Tax on trading income. Final system: Tax on bounties and trading income. I am fighting for balance. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:37:00 - [89] Just say no to taxes! Just what every person wants.. to have more taxes..
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:46:00 - [90] I'm still against the system. But I'm not against a corporation implementing that type of tax through voluntary participation. Also, I suppose this means people in a corp should sell in pieces instead of in bulk to evade the tax as well...

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