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Surreptitious Isk Sink Inc. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 22:48:00 - [31] CCP please destroy any and all means of financial subversion in EVE. I think we should abide by the ethics and norms of the real world in this fake-ass digital world and force everyone to be "good". Syrup PS Jenny, the last few months your posts, threads and opinions are just so ridiculous I've come to the conclusion you are a CCP employee who posts off the wall arguments purely for analysis of the resulting discussion and a glimpse of public perspective.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.08.27 23:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2007 13:51:27 Well DubanFP, the bounty system is the same. A 40% tax on a newb for a 40k rat is also unfair when you impose a 40% tax on a vet for a 1M rat. The vet won't feel the sting as much as a newb in my humble opinion. It is the same reasoning isn't it? Tax is only applied to bounties and mission rewards above 50k. So in your case the noob wouldn't pay any tax. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Shakuul Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.28 01:10:00 - [33] As others have said, this system would easily be circumvented by anyone who uses alts for trading, or really anyone with an alt if they just want to buy or sell a single large item.
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.08.28 02:13:00 - [34] Originally by: Malachon Draco Being a bit of a tax specialist in reallife, I have to tell you what you want is not possible. You are looking to implement something akin to a VAT. The problem with VAT is that it is a type of tax that depends heavily on administration or it will either ruin the economy, or be easily circumvented. CCP cannot implement a corp tax like that, that will actually work. This man understands it, Jenny does not. We have GST (Goods and Services Tax) here and it's essentially the same as VAT I believe. The concept is that you have to keep track of your "Input Tax Credits" (i.e. the tax you paid to buy something) and the tax that you collect on sales and then subtract the values to get the tax you owe to the government. This would actually be relatively easy to implement in Eve I suspect as they already record most of the information required to track the tax. However easy it would be to implement thought it would just not be effective as people would just direct trade or contract to alts to bypass it (much like the RL cash economy that develops to bypass GST/VAT). Bad idea.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:18:00 - [35] Maglorre: Actually if you had read and understand the thread before posting, you would see that I am aware of tax credit. However, not wanting to put words into your mouth, I am not sure whether are you aware that I am talking about trade tax from CCP's programming team's point of view on the game. Like I have said earlier, a proper book-keeping would be hard. I am asking for a simple system like the current bounty tax system. I am not asking for a RL tax system. At the end of the day, whatever tax system must be in the context of the game. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Saint Luka Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi CCP and community. The current tax system on members is almost good except that members can get away with trading tax via market and contracts. Will you, CCP give us a feature soon to tax members on their trading income e.g. transaction amount above X ISKs is subjected to corporate tax? Current tax system only taxes on bounties above Y ISKs. :( I am sure corporate leaders in this community would like to have this feature. :) Also regarding the estamel comment. Not everyone plays the game to grind for there CEOs ingame, try grinding yourself a wallet eh?
Harisdrop Gallente Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:42:00 - [37] CCP should allow for XML transactions for Corporation Traders; Contracts; and tracking from Corp Hangars. I also believe a Corporation should identify what its corp members are doing on the open Market. Lets say there is a tech II inventor making a living on the side. The corp should be able to tax; fire; confiscate; fine; bill; or repeatedly kill base on market activities. There should be evidence of both buy and sell transaction for corps for reimbursement. As a corp member I should be able to allow the corp to see my journal on my accord.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:12:00 - [38] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Maglorre: Actually if you had read and understand the thread before posting, you would see that I am aware of tax credit. However, not wanting to put words into your mouth, I am not sure whether are you aware that I am talking about trade tax from CCP's programming team's point of view on the game. Like I have said earlier, a proper book-keeping would be hard. I am asking for a simple system like the current bounty tax system. I am not asking for a RL tax system. At the end of the day, whatever tax system must be in the context of the game. No it is you that doesn't seem to get it. A system like yours WOULD NOT WORK. It's simply impossible to be fair because of the complexities they were talking about. It would require a more complicated system to be remotely fair, and that's not likely to happen for reasons you stated. ___________ Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes. DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included?
Cassius Longinus Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:29:00 - [39] I'm not sure that Jenny is asking for anything "fair", only to have an option for a taxation mechanic for her members. Honestly, I think it's a good idea, as long as this information is public and available to people choosing which corp to join. Of course it is easily circumvented. Of course the burden of the tax doesn't fall proportionate to effort or profit or anything like that. But it does give the CEO an option to play with in terms of corp funding. As such, I like the idea. (I wouldn't like putting a trader in such a corporation of course, but perhaps I would if the corp goals were near and dear to my heart).
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:23:00 - [40] Originally by: Harisdrop CCP should allow for XML transactions for Corporation Traders; Contracts; and tracking from Corp Hangars. I also believe a Corporation should identify what its corp members are doing on the open Market. Lets say there is a tech II inventor making a living on the side. The corp should be able to tax; fire; confiscate; fine; bill; or repeatedly kill base on market activities. There should be evidence of both buy and sell transaction for corps for reimbursement. As a corp member I should be able to allow the corp to see my journal on my accord. Very well. As an inventor if the corp tax me, I get isk back for the failed attempts? even if I use datacore I produce, so there is not a puchase cost but only a loss of revenue? This whole thread is asking that player in corporations: a) get taxed more than the worst govenements in history ever did or b) keep a full register of transaction and did a VAT form every day/week. No way.

Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:29:00 - [41] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 28/08/2007 20:33:06 Alright. What is so hard about trade tax? I will put numbers that Hoshi won't nitpick. Current corp tax system: Kill drones above 50k (determined by CCP) and accrue X% corp tax on gross bounties. My in-the-clouds corp trade tax system proposal: Receive green entries above 10M (determined by corp) and accrue X% corp tax on gross profits. It is not that difficult to program to be honest. At least I am proposing something that is do-able by CCP and not something that looks nice on paper and horrendously hard to code. It will only take one or two working days and would make certain percentage of this community happy. What is so wrong with that? I am not asking for a RL VAT or GST system. This tax proposal is within the game context. Completely programmable, completely encapsulated, completely low coupled and an option for some of us who want easy corp management. I guess you guys do not chase after people to pay up before, do you? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:36:00 - [42] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/08/2007 11:37:40 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 28/08/2007 20:33:06 Alright. What is so hard about trade tax? I will put numbers that Hoshi won't nitpick. Current corp tax system: Kill drones above 50k (determined by CCP) and accrue X% corp tax on gross bounties. My in-the-clouds corp trade tax system proposal: Receive green entries above 10M (determined by corp) and accrue X% corp tax on gross profits. It is not that difficult to program to be honest. At least I am proposing something that is do-able by CCP and not something that looks nice on paper and horrendously hard to code. It will only take one or two working days and would make certain percentage of this community happy. What is so wrong with that? I am not asking for a RL VAT or GST system. This tax proposal is within the game context. Completely programmable, completely encapsulated, completely low coupled and an option for some of us who want easy corp management. I guess you guys do not chase after people to pay up before, do you? Very simple (and I am surprised that someone that affirm to be an economis in another thread don't grasp it): you aren't taxing profit, you are taxing income. If your tax is 10% and if: - is applied to my invented modules where I have a 20% profit, I lose half of the profit. - is applied to my T1 ammunition production where the profit is 2-5% of sale price, I get a 5-8% loss. Your system work only if I do every passage in house, i.e. I mine my minerals, refine them, build the item and then sold the finished product. Then I am taxed on the profit of my mining activity, refining activity and building activity all in 1 step. But if I buy the minerals on market and build an item your system will tax mi income witout considering my costs. I really miss the old Jenny Spitfire (something I would never have tought to say).
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:50:00 - [43] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi CCP and community. The current tax system on members is almost good except that members can get away with trading tax via market and contracts. Will you, CCP give us a feature soon to tax members on their trading income e.g. transaction amount above X ISKs is subjected to corporate tax? Current tax system only taxes on bounties above Y ISKs. :( I am sure corporate leaders in this community would like to have this feature. :) If this is implemented traders wont trade, or goods will rise in price. "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:06:00 - [44] Taxing on profit can't be done, because there is no mechanism to say that one Cap Recharger II you buy is the same as the one you sell. There is no concept of individual items in Eve, just individual types of item. I do agree, however, that there should be something in place - otherwise the tax system is useless. The argument 'if they want to do more for the corp then they can' is the worst I've heard - the whole point of setting a tax is that it's a mandatory requirement for participation. By not paying it in what they are doing it's tax evasion. Paying money to the corp in lieu of tax isn't a 'nice thing to do', it's making up their tax evasion. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:58:00 - [45] Venkul: It is gross profit in the context of market trading - profit takings less the cost of the goods sold. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:03:00 - [46] All this will do is raise prices. That's all. Unlike the tax on bounties (where the bounties won't rise if you raise the tax on them), if you raise the tax on an open market, people will raise the prices. It will happen instantly. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:07:00 - [47] I don't see a problem with it. So what if it could be circumvented? That doesn't mean it's useless. I have always thought it's lame that the tax system only goes after missioners and ratters, and leaves all other industrial activity out of the equation. If you think a 10% corp tax on your trade deals would eliminate your profit, you obviously aren't very good at business. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:56:00 - [48] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Venkul: It is gross profit in the context of market trading - profit takings less the cost of the goods sold. There is no way in Eve and I don't believe they could code a way, to reliably track the cost of goods sold. Therefore there is no way to calculate and tax someone's profit. I have nothing against your basic concept of wanting to tax profit however I just don't believe it can be done. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Maglorre: Actually if you had read and understand the thread before posting, you would see that I am aware of tax credit. And I did read and understand the thread and having re-read it I can not see anywhere in your posts where you have demonstrated an understanding of input tax credits.
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.29 15:11:00 - [49] Originally by: 4rc4ng3L if i spend my time going through the market and putting in alot of work to make good sales, why should the corp profit from my invested time and isk... If corps need isk you run a corp op to get some, your idea is ridiculous to say the least whoa whoa whoa back up a step. I rat my ass off to make my money and im investing my time and money in that. so why should i be taxed for my investment, but not you for yours? it goes both ways. ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Minnie Rotseibes	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:27:00 - [50] I knew there was a reason I never joined a corp That said, it seems only fair that all corp members pay into corp coffers regardless of play style. EVE already calculates sales taxes, brokers fees, % of refined minerals kept by refinery owners and the like. Can it really be that difficult to factor in a cut for the player's corp too? As for the "prices will rise" argument. Those "Sarariman" in corps paying tax will need to recoup that or suck up the losses. At that point they need to decide if what they are getting out of the corp makes that worthwhile. Solo's like me will have a slight advantage in that corp taxes won't need to be factored in to prices.

Harisdrop Gallente Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:47:00 - [51] NPC corporations should be taxed at 50% on bounties and mission rewards above 50,000 isk. NPC corporations should charge sell order fee and a buy order fee based on total value of the order. Any order less than 10,000,000 isk will not be affected. This fee should be 10%. Player corporations should be able to set this fee from 0% to 10% for thier corp members with the base order value from 0.001 isk to 9.99 tril isk. I believe its time to allow for the market to be controlled by the player corps.
Qolde Minmatar art of eve	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:50:00 - [52] I believe a corp income tax should be implemented, though it should be separate from the other corp tax. It should have a maximum of 5%, and that's really high for most traders. I know a few traders who operate on a 25-200% profit margin, but they are not the norm. If anyone works on less than 2%, then, well, they need to do something else for isk. I'd say the average is around 10%, but I'd be damned if a corp took half of that. 1% is a nice number for trade tax. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ithoriel Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:03:00 - [53] Originally by: Harisdrop NPC corporations should be taxed at 50% on bounties and mission rewards above 50,000 isk. Oh God! Yes please! I would finally break my addiction to EVE and go do something useful with my life. Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional
Lavinrac Krad Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:39:00 - [54] Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that saying.
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. and then when i transfer the 50 billion from my main to my alt, how would it calculate my tax. This isnt quicken, just implement the tax to market sales it isnt that difficult. ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Lavinrac Krad Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:45:00 - [56] Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. and then when i transfer the 50 billion from my main to my alt, how would it calculate my tax. This isnt quicken, just implement the tax to market sales it isnt that difficult. Keep the interval only known to the CEO. That way the CEO could change it at a whim and you would never know. Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that saying.
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. and then when i transfer the 50 billion from my main to my alt, how would it calculate my tax. This isnt quicken, just implement the tax to market sales it isnt that difficult. Keep the interval only known to the CEO. That way the CEO could change it at a whim and you would never know. that still doesnt keep me from evading it...why does everyones "fantastic" fix idea have to be so complicated? It shouldnt be any more difficult than this: 1) CEO imposes a corp tax of 15% 2) Ratters pay 15% of their bounties as usual. 3) Market Players pay 15% of their sales to the corp tax Easy as 1-2-3...and you wouldnt run into the "OMG I HAVE ORDERS ON THE MARKET AND THE CEO CHANGED THE TAX TO 100%" because the tax would be paid at the time of the order placement as opposed to after the order is completed (as it is right now with sales tax). ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Lavinrac Krad Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:03:00 - [58] Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. and then when i transfer the 50 billion from my main to my alt, how would it calculate my tax. This isnt quicken, just implement the tax to market sales it isnt that difficult. Keep the interval only known to the CEO. That way the CEO could change it at a whim and you would never know. that still doesnt keep me from evading it...why does everyones "fantastic" fix idea have to be so complicated? It shouldnt be any more difficult than this: 1) CEO imposes a corp tax of 15% 2) Ratters pay 15% of their bounties as usual. 3) Market Players pay 15% of their sales to the corp tax Easy as 1-2-3...and you wouldnt run into the "OMG I HAVE ORDERS ON THE MARKET AND THE CEO CHANGED THE TAX TO 100%" because the tax would be paid at the time of the order placement as opposed to after the order is completed (as it is right now with sales tax). See the edit in the previous post- people would probably use a trading alt to avoid the sales tax as well. -Sig Starts- Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that sayin
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:07:00 - [59] thats the problem. People can avoid the corp tax (if the trading tax was in effect) with an alt, yet a ratter/missioner cannot. It is unbalanced at the very best. The other idea would be to give the CEO an option to determine a weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, quarterly, or yearly fee to be collected. But i suspect that this idea would fail miserably for various reasons which escape me at this moment. ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:06:00 - [60] Avoiding trading tax with an alt? LOL. Put 40% tax on bounties in starter corps and 40% tax on trading tax above 10M in starter corps and we see how many players will be in player corps. Don't like that alt? Go do something about it as it is no longer in starter corps. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.



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