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Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:33:00 - [1] Hi CCP and community. The current tax system on members is almost good except that members can get away with trading tax via market and contracts. Will you, CCP give us a feature soon to tax members on their trading income e.g. transaction amount above X ISKs is subjected to corporate tax? Current tax system only taxes on bounties above Y ISKs. :( I am sure corporate leaders in this community would like to have this feature. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:38:00 - [2] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/08/2007 13:42:31 Naa, a system would be next to useless just because there's no 1 tax rate on trades that would be fair for all. Sold ore & Rat loot could use a higher tax rate, but trading for isk would be all but ruined by pretty much any tax rate. Also it even gets more complicated when you add in refine taxes for player owned outposts. Did they already get taxed as a % of much needed ore? Are they going to get double taxed because of it? There's also a whole bunch of other details on what's being sold, who it's being sold to, what the isk is needed for, and stuff like that that it would just never be viable to use "and still be fair". ___________ Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes. DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:49:00 - [3] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2007 13:51:27 Well DubanFP, the bounty system is the same. A 40% tax on a newb for a 40k rat is also unfair when you impose a 40% tax on a vet for a 1M rat. The vet won't feel the sting as much as a newb in my humble opinion. It is the same reasoning isn't it? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ethaet Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:50:00 - [4] If your corp has a 40% tax then you need a new one! ----- CONCORD Notice: Don't drink and fly. Drunken jumping can result in loss of ship through "navigational error". Seems familiar?
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:56:00 - [5] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/08/2007 13:57:07 Originally by: Ethaet If your corp has a 40% tax then you need a new one! Actually that's quite wrong. One of our partner corps in D-L has a tax of 40% and it's quite reasonable considering the benifits that come with it "ship replacement, the upkeep for our 2 outposts, ect" Also to Jenny, the thing is the people in your corp that's doing the ratting are generally going to killing stuff around the same level of difficulty. However people are going to be all over the place with trading no matter what, and the situations are sort of like what you said but differs VASTLY, especially when you consider that most of what you make when you trade you already had to pay for in the first place. ___________ Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes. DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included?
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:58:00 - [6] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/08/2007 13:57:07 Originally by: Ethaet If your corp has a 40% tax then you need a new one! Actually that's quite wrong. One of our partner corps in D-L has a tax of 40% and it's quite reasonable considering the benifits that come with it "ship replacement, the upkeep for our 2 outposts, ect" Also to Jenny, the thing is the people in your corp that's doing the ratting are generally going to killing stuff around the same level of difficulty. However people are going to be all over the place with trading no matter what, and the situations are sort of like what you said but differs VASTLY, especially when you consider that most of what you make when you trade you already had to pay for in the first place. please, enlighten me to those benefits? ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
CrayC Gallente CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:58:00 - [7] My corp runs a 100% Tax... I wish it would work on everything
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:01:00 - [8] I see your point. So when someone kills a faction spawn and gets a Estemel something, corp gains a few hundred K ISKs from the bounty and corp misses out on a few million ISKs on the sale? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Ghost Goat	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I see your point. So when someone kills a faction spawn and gets a Estemel something, corp gains a few hundred K ISKs from the bounty and corp misses out on a few million ISKs on the sale? Yes , and thats the way it should be , one of the worst ideas ever . if some1 feels the need to assist his corp further more , he/she can always donate some of the isk gained by trade back to the corp wallet , thats far better way then adding more tax's. if i invest my hard earned isk in trade , and it got nothing to do with mission loot , why should my corp get a piece of that ?
Wufong Wei Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:40:00 - [10] More options is always good...though I would be wondering where all the money was going if a corp I was in did this (I don't think the SAK is going to do this anytime soon :)

4rc4ng3L Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:15:00 - [11] if i spend my time going through the market and putting in alot of work to make good sales, why should the corp profit from my invested time and isk... If corps need isk you run a corp op to get some, your idea is ridiculous to say the least ------------------------------*
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:17:00 - [12] if you build your outpost you can get there ------ Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:18:00 - [13] Edited by: Malachon Draco on 27/08/2007 15:18:50 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I see your point. So when someone kills a faction spawn and gets a Estemel something, corp gains a few hundred K ISKs from the bounty and corp misses out on a few million ISKs on the sale? The real problem is profitmargins. YOu want to tax profit and not revenue, since since you might have members who live off bulk trading at low margins, as well as people who sell small quantities at high margins. What would you consider a fair tax rate for a guy buying trit at 2.45 per unit and selling at 2.50, as well as for the guy buying Corpum X types at 600m and selling at 850m? The first has a profit margin of 2%, the other of 40+%. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:25:00 - [14] this would be fine if the tax was applied in reverse to market purchases for example, if I buy and sell commodities to make personal profit, the corp could tax 10% of the actual profit by doing this. compare the following 2 examples: tax only on sales: 1. buy 20,000 units for 50 each. spend 1,000,000. 2. sell 20,000 units for 75 each. earn 1,500,000. raw profit 50% 3. subtract 10%, 1,500,000 - 150,000 = 1,350,000. 4. overall personal profit = 1,350,000 - 1,000,000 = 350,000, or 35% tax on sales and negative tax on purchases: 1. buy 20,000 units for 50 each. spend 1,000,000 - 100,000 corp tax, net 900,000. 2. sell 20,000 units for 75 each. earn 1,500,000. raw profit 50% 3. subtract 10% corp tax, 1,500,000 - 150,000 = 1,350,000. 4. overall personal profit = 1,350,000 - 900,000 = 450,000, for 50% overall corp profit = 150,000 - 100,000 = 50,000, for 50% in the second case, the profit margin is preserved, and the corp only taxes the actual profit. if EVERY means of ISK income and expenses is taxed, then it should balance out, except for all those bounties and trades below the threshold... ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:26:00 - [15] There's a reason why in real life you only get taxed(personal not transaction tax) on the total income at the end of the year not per transaction. If you buy something for 5k and sell it for 5.5k you've made 500$ not 5.5k. It would be ridiculous getting taxed on 5.5k because then you'd actually be losing money not making it. ----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation."
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:32:00 - [16] Edited by: PhantomVyper on 27/08/2007 15:33:01 Edit: nvm, I'm a moron...
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:13:00 - [17] tax miners first! - putting the gist back into logistics
Fswd	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:19:00 - [18] Tax trolls first, there are plenty of those --- Free exotic dancers for mods that mod my sig Snip Please do not discuss moderation in your signature. -Yipsilanti ([email protected]) <-- freebie for you
Lord Dynastron Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:22:00 - [19] Yea,,, but,, what would stop them from just transferring the stuff to an alt?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2007 17:59:03 fswd: Post with your main or please do not post at all, or at least say something more than a sentence. Lord Dynastron: They would be kicked from corp eventually and no rich and loaded space for them to find faction spawns. WarlockX: Taxing on profit margins would be too difficult for CCP's programming team to implement. It would be easier to tax on transactions instead. Trade tax is to help managing corp easier because chasing after slackers for ISKs is like watching paint dry. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.

Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2007 17:59:03 fswd: Post with your main or please do not post at all, or at least say something more than a sentence. Lord Dynastron: They would be kicked from corp eventually and no rich and loaded space for them to find faction spawns. WarlockX: Taxing on profit margins would be too difficult for CCP's programming team to implement. It would be easier to tax on transactions instead. Trade tax is to help managing corp easier because chasing after slackers for ISKs is like watching paint dry. please address my problem, what tax would be appropriate considering you will have members who trade at 2% profit but with bulk, and people who trade at 50-500 or more percent profit. Or in short, it don't work. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:28:00 - [22] Draco: Since you have asked nicely, I will reply. This is an idea in the midst and would require refining if we insist on CCP to give us this tax feature. I did say apply tax on green numbers above X ISKs or something along those lines. Anything below the threshold is members own personal allowances. I honestly do not think CCP could implement a proper corp tax on profit margin because it would require heavy book-keeping on ledgers. It is not like we could set for drone with A ISKs bounty, tax B much or drone with C ISKs bounty, tax D much. I am thinking of something keep it slightly simple. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Draco: Since you have asked nicely, I will reply. This is an idea in the midst and would require refining if we insist on CCP to give us this tax feature. I did say apply tax on green numbers above X ISKs or something along those lines. Anything below the threshold is members own personal allowances. I honestly do not think CCP could implement a proper corp tax on profit margin because it would require heavy book-keeping on ledgers. It is not like we could set for drone with A ISKs bounty, tax B much or drone with C ISKs bounty, tax D much. I am thinking of something keep it slightly simple. Being a bit of a tax specialist in reallife, I have to tell you what you want is not possible. You are looking to implement something akin to a VAT. The problem with VAT is that it is a type of tax that depends heavily on administration or it will either ruin the economy, or be easily circumvented. CCP cannot implement a corp tax like that, that will actually work. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Petter Sandstad Taggart Transdimensional Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:47:00 - [24] I wonder why all the communistic corps are so eager to destroy themselves. As for me I don't care whether such a tax change is implemented or not, TTI are not communists.
Mo adib	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:53:00 - [25] 1st thing: to come on to a forum filled by a much higher majority players then corp leaders and talk about taxing everyone more is not gonna get you helpful replies.... thats rule number 1 2nd thing: this is an assumption but a safe one I think;most players that are not primarily industry focused use an alt to handle their trading, its anonymous, easy to train, and doesnt tie up your character anywhere. combining points 1 and 2 I think this is a bad idea, if you want something like this then ask your corp members donate a portion of their proceeds to the corp if they are earning through non taxable methods. If they are the type that will not donate cause they dont think they can get caught avoiding it then I point you back to the 2nd thing.
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:58:00 - [26] Won't work for traders in your corp, for simple fact that traders buy then sell. the cost to acquire goods to put up for sale would not be able to be taken into consideration. If my profit margin is 25%, and corp tax is 10%, and i pay 2% for buy order and 2% for sell order, my profit margin would be 11.xx%, depending on skills. If the profit margin only was taxed, that would be great, but the datavase already has to track too much data.... Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.27 19:20:00 - [27] If people want to evade such a system, they can easily create a trade alt and pass everything to it via private contracts that no-one else can see when doing searches. In the case of valuable loot, there's no public record of what drops, so a corp could never prove anything if the kill wasn't witnessed. You could always request corp members' full API keys. It wouldn't prevent people from making 'illicit' profits on trading, but a really mean CEO could audit everyone's dealings (including their trade alts on that account) and threaten to boot them if they didn't pay the requested taxes. A more friendly option would be to add a 'Donate x% of proceeds to corp' option when entering sell orders, where x is set by the person entering the order. Combined with the full API key auditing, this might work. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Tunak	Posted - 2007.08.27 20:10:00 - [28] Tunak hands item to market alt. Market alt sells item. Tunak wonders why everyone is complaining about the new corp transaction tax.
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 21:16:00 - [29] clearly it's impossible to tax someone that does not wish to be taxed. so for big items that are worth 800m, ppl will obviously go out of their way to make sure they don't take a tax hit on it and there's no system that could stop them no matter how complex. ----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation."
Goonie Alt	Posted - 2007.08.27 22:30:00 - [30] Contract to a trade alt and sell it that way, bypassing any and all taxes.

Surreptitious Isk Sink Inc. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 22:48:00 - [31] CCP please destroy any and all means of financial subversion in EVE. I think we should abide by the ethics and norms of the real world in this fake-ass digital world and force everyone to be "good". Syrup PS Jenny, the last few months your posts, threads and opinions are just so ridiculous I've come to the conclusion you are a CCP employee who posts off the wall arguments purely for analysis of the resulting discussion and a glimpse of public perspective.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.08.27 23:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 27/08/2007 13:51:27 Well DubanFP, the bounty system is the same. A 40% tax on a newb for a 40k rat is also unfair when you impose a 40% tax on a vet for a 1M rat. The vet won't feel the sting as much as a newb in my humble opinion. It is the same reasoning isn't it? Tax is only applied to bounties and mission rewards above 50k. So in your case the noob wouldn't pay any tax. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Shakuul Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.28 01:10:00 - [33] As others have said, this system would easily be circumvented by anyone who uses alts for trading, or really anyone with an alt if they just want to buy or sell a single large item.
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.08.28 02:13:00 - [34] Originally by: Malachon Draco Being a bit of a tax specialist in reallife, I have to tell you what you want is not possible. You are looking to implement something akin to a VAT. The problem with VAT is that it is a type of tax that depends heavily on administration or it will either ruin the economy, or be easily circumvented. CCP cannot implement a corp tax like that, that will actually work. This man understands it, Jenny does not. We have GST (Goods and Services Tax) here and it's essentially the same as VAT I believe. The concept is that you have to keep track of your "Input Tax Credits" (i.e. the tax you paid to buy something) and the tax that you collect on sales and then subtract the values to get the tax you owe to the government. This would actually be relatively easy to implement in Eve I suspect as they already record most of the information required to track the tax. However easy it would be to implement thought it would just not be effective as people would just direct trade or contract to alts to bypass it (much like the RL cash economy that develops to bypass GST/VAT). Bad idea.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:18:00 - [35] Maglorre: Actually if you had read and understand the thread before posting, you would see that I am aware of tax credit. However, not wanting to put words into your mouth, I am not sure whether are you aware that I am talking about trade tax from CCP's programming team's point of view on the game. Like I have said earlier, a proper book-keeping would be hard. I am asking for a simple system like the current bounty tax system. I am not asking for a RL tax system. At the end of the day, whatever tax system must be in the context of the game. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Saint Luka Minmatar The Illuminati.	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:21:00 - [36] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi CCP and community. The current tax system on members is almost good except that members can get away with trading tax via market and contracts. Will you, CCP give us a feature soon to tax members on their trading income e.g. transaction amount above X ISKs is subjected to corporate tax? Current tax system only taxes on bounties above Y ISKs. :( I am sure corporate leaders in this community would like to have this feature. :) Also regarding the estamel comment. Not everyone plays the game to grind for there CEOs ingame, try grinding yourself a wallet eh?
Harisdrop Gallente Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:42:00 - [37] CCP should allow for XML transactions for Corporation Traders; Contracts; and tracking from Corp Hangars. I also believe a Corporation should identify what its corp members are doing on the open Market. Lets say there is a tech II inventor making a living on the side. The corp should be able to tax; fire; confiscate; fine; bill; or repeatedly kill base on market activities. There should be evidence of both buy and sell transaction for corps for reimbursement. As a corp member I should be able to allow the corp to see my journal on my accord.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:12:00 - [38] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Maglorre: Actually if you had read and understand the thread before posting, you would see that I am aware of tax credit. However, not wanting to put words into your mouth, I am not sure whether are you aware that I am talking about trade tax from CCP's programming team's point of view on the game. Like I have said earlier, a proper book-keeping would be hard. I am asking for a simple system like the current bounty tax system. I am not asking for a RL tax system. At the end of the day, whatever tax system must be in the context of the game. No it is you that doesn't seem to get it. A system like yours WOULD NOT WORK. It's simply impossible to be fair because of the complexities they were talking about. It would require a more complicated system to be remotely fair, and that's not likely to happen for reasons you stated. ___________ Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes. DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included?
Cassius Longinus Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:29:00 - [39] I'm not sure that Jenny is asking for anything "fair", only to have an option for a taxation mechanic for her members. Honestly, I think it's a good idea, as long as this information is public and available to people choosing which corp to join. Of course it is easily circumvented. Of course the burden of the tax doesn't fall proportionate to effort or profit or anything like that. But it does give the CEO an option to play with in terms of corp funding. As such, I like the idea. (I wouldn't like putting a trader in such a corporation of course, but perhaps I would if the corp goals were near and dear to my heart).
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:23:00 - [40] Originally by: Harisdrop CCP should allow for XML transactions for Corporation Traders; Contracts; and tracking from Corp Hangars. I also believe a Corporation should identify what its corp members are doing on the open Market. Lets say there is a tech II inventor making a living on the side. The corp should be able to tax; fire; confiscate; fine; bill; or repeatedly kill base on market activities. There should be evidence of both buy and sell transaction for corps for reimbursement. As a corp member I should be able to allow the corp to see my journal on my accord. Very well. As an inventor if the corp tax me, I get isk back for the failed attempts? even if I use datacore I produce, so there is not a puchase cost but only a loss of revenue? This whole thread is asking that player in corporations: a) get taxed more than the worst govenements in history ever did or b) keep a full register of transaction and did a VAT form every day/week. No way.

Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:29:00 - [41] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 28/08/2007 20:33:06 Alright. What is so hard about trade tax? I will put numbers that Hoshi won't nitpick. Current corp tax system: Kill drones above 50k (determined by CCP) and accrue X% corp tax on gross bounties. My in-the-clouds corp trade tax system proposal: Receive green entries above 10M (determined by corp) and accrue X% corp tax on gross profits. It is not that difficult to program to be honest. At least I am proposing something that is do-able by CCP and not something that looks nice on paper and horrendously hard to code. It will only take one or two working days and would make certain percentage of this community happy. What is so wrong with that? I am not asking for a RL VAT or GST system. This tax proposal is within the game context. Completely programmable, completely encapsulated, completely low coupled and an option for some of us who want easy corp management. I guess you guys do not chase after people to pay up before, do you? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:36:00 - [42] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/08/2007 11:37:40 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 28/08/2007 20:33:06 Alright. What is so hard about trade tax? I will put numbers that Hoshi won't nitpick. Current corp tax system: Kill drones above 50k (determined by CCP) and accrue X% corp tax on gross bounties. My in-the-clouds corp trade tax system proposal: Receive green entries above 10M (determined by corp) and accrue X% corp tax on gross profits. It is not that difficult to program to be honest. At least I am proposing something that is do-able by CCP and not something that looks nice on paper and horrendously hard to code. It will only take one or two working days and would make certain percentage of this community happy. What is so wrong with that? I am not asking for a RL VAT or GST system. This tax proposal is within the game context. Completely programmable, completely encapsulated, completely low coupled and an option for some of us who want easy corp management. I guess you guys do not chase after people to pay up before, do you? Very simple (and I am surprised that someone that affirm to be an economis in another thread don't grasp it): you aren't taxing profit, you are taxing income. If your tax is 10% and if: - is applied to my invented modules where I have a 20% profit, I lose half of the profit. - is applied to my T1 ammunition production where the profit is 2-5% of sale price, I get a 5-8% loss. Your system work only if I do every passage in house, i.e. I mine my minerals, refine them, build the item and then sold the finished product. Then I am taxed on the profit of my mining activity, refining activity and building activity all in 1 step. But if I buy the minerals on market and build an item your system will tax mi income witout considering my costs. I really miss the old Jenny Spitfire (something I would never have tought to say).
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:50:00 - [43] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi CCP and community. The current tax system on members is almost good except that members can get away with trading tax via market and contracts. Will you, CCP give us a feature soon to tax members on their trading income e.g. transaction amount above X ISKs is subjected to corporate tax? Current tax system only taxes on bounties above Y ISKs. :( I am sure corporate leaders in this community would like to have this feature. :) If this is implemented traders wont trade, or goods will rise in price. "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:06:00 - [44] Taxing on profit can't be done, because there is no mechanism to say that one Cap Recharger II you buy is the same as the one you sell. There is no concept of individual items in Eve, just individual types of item. I do agree, however, that there should be something in place - otherwise the tax system is useless. The argument 'if they want to do more for the corp then they can' is the worst I've heard - the whole point of setting a tax is that it's a mandatory requirement for participation. By not paying it in what they are doing it's tax evasion. Paying money to the corp in lieu of tax isn't a 'nice thing to do', it's making up their tax evasion. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:58:00 - [45] Venkul: It is gross profit in the context of market trading - profit takings less the cost of the goods sold. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:03:00 - [46] All this will do is raise prices. That's all. Unlike the tax on bounties (where the bounties won't rise if you raise the tax on them), if you raise the tax on an open market, people will raise the prices. It will happen instantly. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:07:00 - [47] I don't see a problem with it. So what if it could be circumvented? That doesn't mean it's useless. I have always thought it's lame that the tax system only goes after missioners and ratters, and leaves all other industrial activity out of the equation. If you think a 10% corp tax on your trade deals would eliminate your profit, you obviously aren't very good at business. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:56:00 - [48] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Venkul: It is gross profit in the context of market trading - profit takings less the cost of the goods sold. There is no way in Eve and I don't believe they could code a way, to reliably track the cost of goods sold. Therefore there is no way to calculate and tax someone's profit. I have nothing against your basic concept of wanting to tax profit however I just don't believe it can be done. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Maglorre: Actually if you had read and understand the thread before posting, you would see that I am aware of tax credit. And I did read and understand the thread and having re-read it I can not see anywhere in your posts where you have demonstrated an understanding of input tax credits.
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.29 15:11:00 - [49] Originally by: 4rc4ng3L if i spend my time going through the market and putting in alot of work to make good sales, why should the corp profit from my invested time and isk... If corps need isk you run a corp op to get some, your idea is ridiculous to say the least whoa whoa whoa back up a step. I rat my ass off to make my money and im investing my time and money in that. so why should i be taxed for my investment, but not you for yours? it goes both ways. ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Minnie Rotseibes	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:27:00 - [50] I knew there was a reason I never joined a corp That said, it seems only fair that all corp members pay into corp coffers regardless of play style. EVE already calculates sales taxes, brokers fees, % of refined minerals kept by refinery owners and the like. Can it really be that difficult to factor in a cut for the player's corp too? As for the "prices will rise" argument. Those "Sarariman" in corps paying tax will need to recoup that or suck up the losses. At that point they need to decide if what they are getting out of the corp makes that worthwhile. Solo's like me will have a slight advantage in that corp taxes won't need to be factored in to prices.

Harisdrop Gallente Omega Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:47:00 - [51] NPC corporations should be taxed at 50% on bounties and mission rewards above 50,000 isk. NPC corporations should charge sell order fee and a buy order fee based on total value of the order. Any order less than 10,000,000 isk will not be affected. This fee should be 10%. Player corporations should be able to set this fee from 0% to 10% for thier corp members with the base order value from 0.001 isk to 9.99 tril isk. I believe its time to allow for the market to be controlled by the player corps.
Qolde Minmatar art of eve	Posted - 2007.08.29 16:50:00 - [52] I believe a corp income tax should be implemented, though it should be separate from the other corp tax. It should have a maximum of 5%, and that's really high for most traders. I know a few traders who operate on a 25-200% profit margin, but they are not the norm. If anyone works on less than 2%, then, well, they need to do something else for isk. I'd say the average is around 10%, but I'd be damned if a corp took half of that. 1% is a nice number for trade tax. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ithoriel Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:03:00 - [53] Originally by: Harisdrop NPC corporations should be taxed at 50% on bounties and mission rewards above 50,000 isk. Oh God! Yes please! I would finally break my addiction to EVE and go do something useful with my life. Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional
Lavinrac Krad Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:39:00 - [54] Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that saying.
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. and then when i transfer the 50 billion from my main to my alt, how would it calculate my tax. This isnt quicken, just implement the tax to market sales it isnt that difficult. ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Lavinrac Krad Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:45:00 - [56] Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. and then when i transfer the 50 billion from my main to my alt, how would it calculate my tax. This isnt quicken, just implement the tax to market sales it isnt that difficult. Keep the interval only known to the CEO. That way the CEO could change it at a whim and you would never know. Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that saying.
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:00:00 - [57] Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. and then when i transfer the 50 billion from my main to my alt, how would it calculate my tax. This isnt quicken, just implement the tax to market sales it isnt that difficult. Keep the interval only known to the CEO. That way the CEO could change it at a whim and you would never know. that still doesnt keep me from evading it...why does everyones "fantastic" fix idea have to be so complicated? It shouldnt be any more difficult than this: 1) CEO imposes a corp tax of 15% 2) Ratters pay 15% of their bounties as usual. 3) Market Players pay 15% of their sales to the corp tax Easy as 1-2-3...and you wouldnt run into the "OMG I HAVE ORDERS ON THE MARKET AND THE CEO CHANGED THE TAX TO 100%" because the tax would be paid at the time of the order placement as opposed to after the order is completed (as it is right now with sales tax). ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Lavinrac Krad Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:03:00 - [58] Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. and then when i transfer the 50 billion from my main to my alt, how would it calculate my tax. This isnt quicken, just implement the tax to market sales it isnt that difficult. Keep the interval only known to the CEO. That way the CEO could change it at a whim and you would never know. that still doesnt keep me from evading it...why does everyones "fantastic" fix idea have to be so complicated? It shouldnt be any more difficult than this: 1) CEO imposes a corp tax of 15% 2) Ratters pay 15% of their bounties as usual. 3) Market Players pay 15% of their sales to the corp tax Easy as 1-2-3...and you wouldnt run into the "OMG I HAVE ORDERS ON THE MARKET AND THE CEO CHANGED THE TAX TO 100%" because the tax would be paid at the time of the order placement as opposed to after the order is completed (as it is right now with sales tax). See the edit in the previous post- people would probably use a trading alt to avoid the sales tax as well. -Sig Starts- Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that sayin
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.29 18:07:00 - [59] thats the problem. People can avoid the corp tax (if the trading tax was in effect) with an alt, yet a ratter/missioner cannot. It is unbalanced at the very best. The other idea would be to give the CEO an option to determine a weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, quarterly, or yearly fee to be collected. But i suspect that this idea would fail miserably for various reasons which escape me at this moment. ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:06:00 - [60] Avoiding trading tax with an alt? LOL. Put 40% tax on bounties in starter corps and 40% tax on trading tax above 10M in starter corps and we see how many players will be in player corps. Don't like that alt? Go do something about it as it is no longer in starter corps. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.

Caldreean Dawnwalkers	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:27:00 - [61] Ok, I'll just start up my new Corp "Alt Traders Tax Evaders". It's even kinda sezzy 'cause it rhymes. Who wants to join? Checkmate.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:28:00 - [62] If you are under a corp that takes tax seriously and if the corp sees you not paying your taxes, you will be kicked or left alone in 0.0. I think that is fair. Game over? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Tonkin D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:38:00 - [63] if i got taxed on the market sales i do, my alt will do it, what i sell in my peronal assets the corp has no right to, the corp is a comunity people put stuff in the corp to make it survive. bounty is enought for tax's to get the corp some isk to start its own business like a pos tree or trading, u gotta think of a corp as a actual player where u trade for it mine for it and make money for it. you gotta think of it this way, if ur selling a dread for 2 bill and there is no tax, u log off and log back in and find the dread has been sold but the tax rate was 100% at the time of the sale, tbh if that happend the corp will have mass exodus or the ceos and directoers will be kos lol.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:46:00 - [64] Tonkin: It is good that you bring that up. Well, when you list orders or contracts for sale, they could be tied to the current corp tax to protect members from dodgy CEOs or directors. The effective tax is the time when you put orders up or modify them. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.08.29 20:56:00 - [65] Edited by: Frug on 29/08/2007 20:56:35 Originally by: Tonkin if i got taxed on the market sales i do, my alt will do it, what i sell in my peronal assets the corp has no right to, the corp is a comunity people put stuff in the corp to make it survive. bounty is enought for tax's to get the corp some isk to start its own business like a pos tree or trading, u gotta think of a corp as a actual player where u trade for it mine for it and make money for it. you gotta think of it this way, if ur selling a dread for 2 bill and there is no tax, u log off and log back in and find the dread has been sold but the tax rate was 100% at the time of the sale, tbh if that happend the corp will have mass exodus or the ceos and directoers will be kos lol. If you want to waste your time avoiding helping your corp by using a trading alt I don't really see the problem. If I was the CEO and I noticed you were evading taxes, I'd just kick you. That sounds fine for me. If you're so against the idea and think no corp has the "right" to tax you on what you transfer, even if, say, you're MINING with your corp's protection or in space they control, join a corp with no trading taxes. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 20:59:00 - [66] If your corpmates are avoiding their taxes, ask them to donate or kick them out. If you don't want to do either of those, let them continue to trade as they always have, collecting the taxes you always do.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:05:00 - [67] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Venkul: It is gross profit in the context of market trading - profit takings less the cost of the goods sold. But you are not suggesting that. You have suggested no system to calculate the costs. You only suggest to tax the revenue from selling, without any compensation for the cost incurred. So as much as you try to weasel it, you are taxing total income.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:18:00 - [68] Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 29/08/2007 17:41:14 How about a monthly (or maybe a customizable period) income tax? The mechanic records your total isk on a certain date (taxing assets would be a pain, so screw it), then after a set interval it would compare your isk totals. If you made isk, it would subtract your previous isk total from your current isk total. Then the mechanic would calculate the tax from that amount. It would not be a perfect system, but I see it being better than having no tax at all and it would only tax profit. Way less than perfect, it will be circunvented by people shifting the isk to other characters the last day, it will penalize you if you have just done that big sale or blown your ship and got the insurance and give you a bonus (in the form of a reduced or 0 tax) if you have sold your stuff a week ago and just brought a capital ship. The only option would be if the system keep a trace of every transaction, delete player donations and insurance payout and tax the resulting difference. The problem there would be for ratters/mission runners that would be taxed 2 times. So the introduction of a generalized income tax would require the cancellation of the tax on bounties and mission rewards. I am not sure it would be a good idea as the burden on the database would be serious, but maybe most of the data could be recovered from the wallet witouth further database access and the calculations done during DT.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:25:00 - [69] Originally by: Major Stallion It shouldnt be any more difficult than this: 1) CEO imposes a corp tax of 15% 2) Ratters pay 15% of their bounties as usual. 3) Market Players pay 15% of their sales to the corp tax Easy as 1-2-3...and you wouldnt run into the "OMG I HAVE ORDERS ON THE MARKET AND THE CEO CHANGED THE TAX TO 100%" because the tax would be paid at the time of the order placement as opposed to after the order is completed (as it is right now with sales tax). Ratter cost = ammunition, occasional blown ship Seller cost = building cost of the item or purchase cost Tax on putting item on market: ops someone underbid my and I did not sold, must lower the price of my 50.000 T2 shots by 50 isk each, dammit beside the 2,5 million lost lowering the price I have lost another 375.000 to a tax on isk I will not get. Unless you somehow subtract the production cost you are taxing total income, and that will strangle all traders in corporations (an you will see tons of 1 man trading corporations).
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:27:00 - [70] I think the issue has to do with a game design... Player Corps only get to tax ISK 1 time, when it's created... Trade does not create ISK, it transfers it... Missions and Ratting Creates the ISK. If you are going to tax profits, how much value do you place on work? would your miners end up paying a huge part of their profits in taxes because you do not value their efforts? (Sale without purchase = 100% profit) All in all, if the player corp needs more funds, ask for them, let the players that have it donate...taxing all the profits from your members would seem to me to be a quick way to end up with a 1 person corp... Also, as a member of a corp, if you are looking for a way to avoid the corp taxes, you are in the wrong corp... --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.

Falbala Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:30:00 - [71] Why not be reasonable? Corp pays for offices, labs, and other stuff, you divide this amount by the number of members and that's what they need to pay. Some extra to pay BPOs and other investment ok. Some more to pay eventually share benefits? No way. If there are benefits it must come from the corp side, not the members. If the corp doesn't make money by itself then the CEO doesn't do the job properly and must be kicked. Make money with the corps and don't tax your members above the reasonable.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:06:00 - [72] As if there aren't enough taxes in real life, now people want to tax Monopoly money, too... First of all, equating profits from ratting to profits from industry/trade is ridiculous. If I go shoot a battleship spawn in 0.0, I receive millions of isk at the expendature of a trivial amount of ammo. In effect, this is a 100% profit transaction, so taking some percentage of that cuts only into the profits I make. If, on the other hand, I build a battleship for 60 mil and sell it for 65 mil, your 40% tax rate means that I am paying my corp about 21 mil every time I sell a ship. While this may make sense to a communist, why would anyone go into trade or industry, instead of ratting? So the response, of course, is to raise prices. The same ship now has to cost more than 100 mil, since at 100 mil (minus taxes) I break even. But here's the problem: what if my competitor owns his own corp, and has a 0% tax rate? Now I have to sell the battleship for 100 mil to break even, but he sells for 80 mil and makes 20 mil profit for himself. Seeing this (and assuming I have some interest in generating isk, which is likely if I went into business) I have only one response - I switch to my competitors corp, or start my own corp. The end result of this, of course, is that all industrial/trade characters will either stop producing, or will migrate to corps with low or no taxes, so they won't have to pay any. Why not just skip the painful transition and leave the system as it is now? For the record, there already is a transaction tax on all market transactions. Technically, two of them, if you include the broker's fees. If some form of taxation on transactions is deemed absolutely necessary, then the easiest way to do it would be to double the existing transaction tax, and redirect half of it to the seller's corp. By the way, did Jenny Spitfire get sold again? -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Falbala Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:11:00 - [73] Why i don't get is why you don't produce and sell the ship with your corp. Have them pay the BPC, the factory, help on mining and hauling the mineral then sell it and share benefits. It's how it is supposed to work. If you have PE5, RE5, can use the best hauler, conduct a mining barge, have trade and social skills to level 5 then what do you need a corp for in first place?
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:37:00 - [74] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Hi CCP and community. The current tax system on members is almost good except that members can get away with trading tax via market and contracts. Will you, CCP give us a feature soon to tax members on their trading income e.g. transaction amount above X ISKs is subjected to corporate tax? Current tax system only taxes on bounties above Y ISKs. :( I am sure corporate leaders in this community would like to have this feature. :) Corp-tax free loot sales are what sustain the more obscene bounty tax rates currently in place with certain corporations. There is no need to tax trades or sales.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.30 08:13:00 - [75] If you want to implement more corp taxes, might I suggest the following, because whatever you may think, introducing a trade tax like you are suggesting, WILL NOT WORK. - Lump sum tax. Corp sets a tax of X per month, to be deducted automatically on the first of each month - Wealth tax. Corp takes X percent of your total cash holdings each month, and it could be possible to have the system automatically calculate the value of your assets and tax them. Maybe even add a big list of stuff, where you can deviate the tax rate on an item. For example, you could tax hulks at 10% of their value each month, and battleships on 0.5% Lump sum tax is easy, and not very disruptive. Wealth tax is more diffilcult to implement, though still not extremely disruptive (though probably very impopular), it is also easy to circumvent though. But unlike your trade tax/VAT proposal, it would not automatically end up as a huge cluster****. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.08.30 08:44:00 - [76] What they need to classify income into different groups and allow the corp to set a specific tax rate on all of them. They would also need to track purchases and have an option for those to be deducted. Classifications: (off the top of my head, for example purposes only, aka. don't flame cause I left something out) T1 modules (mission running/standard ratting loot) T2 modules (industrialist making pure profit \| PvPer replacing gear) Faction stuff (trading \| officer spawn) Ships (industrialist making some profit \| PvPer replacing gear) Minerals (industrialist buying materials \| mission running/standard ratting loot) POS stuff (industrialist making some profit \| trading) A corp could set it such that the amount of purchases in minerals is subtracted from the sold amount in ships and POS and only a positive value is taxed. That way only the industrialist's profit is taxed. Further subtracting the cost of faction stuff from the profit of faction stuff would mean that only the trader's profit is taxed. Thus traders will now have to pay corp taxes (unlike the current system) but won't be utterly screwed (like under the OP's system). A corp could also cut their PvPers a break by deducting ship and module costs from their ratting income so if they loose ships defending the corp they will pay less taxes while the industrialists (that didn't risk/loose anything) will still pay full taxes on their profit.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.30 08:58:00 - [77] How would you deal with the following in a 'simple' trade tax 1. Mr X. mines 333 unit of veldspar and refines it into 1000 units of tritanium and sells the 1000 units for 2.5 isk per unit, how much tax does he pay? 2. Mr X. buys 1000 units of trit for 2.4 trit per unit, and sells it for 2.5 trit per unit. How much tax does he pay? 3. Mr X. buys 1000 units of tritanium, and loots a 100mn MWD from a gate rat. He refined the MWD, and uses the materials and the 1000 units of trit he bought to build a raven, which he sells for 100m. How much tax does he pay? And what if he sold it for 80m, because he needed the isk fast? You invent me a number of taxrules for a trade tax that don't require huge administration, are not horribly unfair, don't ruin the market completely, and are not easily circumvented, and I am sure I can get you a job at the Treasury department I work at ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Ima Nub	Posted - 2007.08.30 09:31:00 - [78] I always thought taxes are a fundamentally ridiculous way of securing income from the corporations members. You've got to assume the corp members want the best for the corp or they wouldn't be there in the first place, or at least be kicked after a little while. Also, taxes are in a way like concord hehe. Lets see if I can explain this. When you shoot someone in highsec concord comes and punishes you right? But if you somehow survive that punishment it's seen as an exploit. Why? Concords retribution is like the tax - it's 10% tax or 10000 dps - you deal with it and if you somehow survive it why should you have to attone even further? It's like saying ooh eeer we didn't really count on you surviving that, here have some more dps/pay more. So in other words, having taxes is like saying members don't need to contribute in any other way. It's saying ok you can be in this corp but you have to pay 10% of your income. Fine, just don't ask me for anything else then you stingy bastards! And no I don't expect anyone to understand what I just wrote
cuteboylookingatyou	Posted - 2007.08.30 10:08:00 - [79] GTFO. You are not a good CEO if you need to force a tax on your members to get them to contribute to the corp at all. Rewards are the only thing affected by tax because it makes it easier for both parties. If you noticed most corps not full of newbies have the tax set at 0.
Sae Len	Posted - 2007.08.30 10:44:00 - [80] Instead of trying to implement a horribly complicated tax system, I would like to see an option to use a much simpler one. Right now corp taxes apply only to ratters and mission runners. Producers and traders contribute nothing. So how about an option to instead of taxing bounties have everyone contribute same amount of ISK into corp wallet automatically every week say? And since it would not be fair to newbies to make them pay same as older players there should be the ability to set the income proportional to age of character. So for example everyone who has a character that is 3 month of younger contributes 200K to the corp wallet each week. Everyone who's got 3-6 month old char contirbutes 1 mil each week, and so on. Since people might have alts in corp, make it also possible to exclude certain members in corp from this tax so no one pays double or triple. Anyone with negative wallet balance would not be able to be taxed and CEO would get a notice. This would discourage people accepting ISK buyers into their corps for example. It would also discourage people going inactive in corps that would use such a system as you'd just get your wallet sucked dry. Or at least telling the CEO that you're gonna go inactive so that he can turn this tax off for you for the duration. But it should just be an optional feature, one corps can switch to instead of the bounty tax system that we have now if they want.

Eve Innovative Eve Innovative Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:16:00 - [81] Originally by: Sae Len .................. And since it would not be fair to newbies to make them pay same as older players there should be the ability to set the income proportional to age of character. So for example everyone who has a character that is 3 month of younger contributes 200K to the corp wallet each week. ............ How could it be fair to use a char's age for that ? * A 3 year old char, but have been out of game multiple times and have no more skills than an 9 month old player.... * A 3 year old char, but he/she is only a few days every month and don't make much isk....
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:03:00 - [82] Malachon: If the corp taxes 10% on income above 10M then, 1) Tax free - personal allowance. 2) Tax free - personal allowance. 3) He would pay 10M in tax for selling the Raven at 100M. If he sold for 80M, he would pay 8M in tax. What is so huge about this tax administration system? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:19:00 - [83] Edited by: cal nereus on 30/08/2007 22:23:50 Profit. Most people don't sell something if they gets a net loss after taxes. Why else do you think governments choose not to have high taxes? If the taxes are too high then a market deal that might've yielded profit would no longer yield profit (may even cause loss) and thus the deal won't happen. Or in the case of Eve, an alt will just make the deal instead. If, in order to get a profit under a no-tax situation, someone had to sell at 90million, then they are given a 10% tax, they need to mark up the price to 100million. But if the market is such that no one buys, then they can't sell it, and they need to avoid the tax somehow (using an alt).
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:25:00 - [84] That is the point. If they avoid tax after a while they will be left alone in 0.0 or somewhere in a hell-hole. That is a fair punishment for evading corp tax. :) Corp tax is to help to achieve a corp goal and to make collecting dues easily. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:26:00 - [85] So why not just kick them and keep only corp-mates who donate isk from trades? Seems faster and doesn't require any changes in the tax system.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:29:00 - [86] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 30/08/2007 22:30:53 Coz as said for more than three times, corp tax also makes collecting dues easily. Jenny > Hello Cal. Cal > Hello. Jenny > Pay-up. Cal > What? Have to go now sorry, Mummy is calling. Jenny > K k, bye. Remember to pay-up. Cal > Sure, sure. * Cal forgets to pay up until next month. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:34:00 - [87] Yes, because we want tax collecting to be easy? Honestly, I'm 100% behind you Jenny if you decide to kick a tax-evader. But I'm hesitant about making it built-in to the system.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:36:00 - [88] Thank you for you support, Cal. Let's try to make this request a success. :) Current system: Tax on bounties. Proposed system: Tax on trading income. Final system: Tax on bounties and trading income. I am fighting for balance. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:37:00 - [89] Just say no to taxes! Just what every person wants.. to have more taxes..
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:46:00 - [90] I'm still against the system. But I'm not against a corporation implementing that type of tax through voluntary participation. Also, I suppose this means people in a corp should sell in pieces instead of in bulk to evade the tax as well...

Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:54:00 - [91] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Malachon: If the corp taxes 10% on income above 10M then, 1) Tax free - personal allowance. 2) Tax free - personal allowance. 3) He would pay 10M in tax for selling the Raven at 100M. If he sold for 80M, he would pay 8M in tax. What is so huge about this tax administration system? Umm a taxfree basis doesn't help with the principle. To put it like this: 1. Lets say mr X mines 3.33 billion units of veldspar, refines it and sells the resulting 10 billion tritanium at 2.5 isk per unit. How much tax does he pay. By your definition he would pay 2.5 billion in taxes, correct? 2. Lets say mr X buys 10 billion units of tritanium at 2.40 per unit, and sells it at 2.50 per unit. I think by your tax he would pay 2.5 billion in taxes, even though his revenue is only 1 billion, in effect making him lose 1.5 billion 3. Ok, selling the raven, the guy pays 10m in taxes on his raven that he sells for 100m. Only problem is that at 90m he probably wont make any profit, and probably even small loss. So he won't sell it at 100m, because he loses isk that way. So he tries to sell it at 110m, so he keeps 99m after profit. Only problem, at 110m its probably way overpriced and it won't sell. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:56:00 - [92] I echo Malachon's points. But I believe what Jenny is saying is that the tax is supposed to discourage trade. That's what taxes are for really: to discourage certain ways of earning money.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 23:03:00 - [93] 1) Yes, 2.5b tax. 2) He could sell at 2.80 ISK per unit and make 28b sale and pay 2.8b tax. In effect, he would make 4b in profit which is 1.2b profit after tax. 3) He could find a low tax corp instead if giving 11M to corp is a bad thing. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Calidor Droks Caldari No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 23:07:00 - [94] I don't think there needs to be a corp tax on earnings. A decent corp has players that contribute to corporation growth, useless corps don't, simple as. Corp/Alliance mining ops, mission running, fleet ops etc. are already a form of player tax, it's a tax on a players time. All loot/salvage from missions/exploration can go into corp hangar as tax and then distributed as needed, any surplus can be reprocessed. I could go on, there are many ways a corp can tax it's players already without taxing players ISK income. If your corp is not raising enough revenue from it's members then you need to look at your member list again.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 23:13:00 - [95] So what if your corp has busy players who can't find time to mine together. Corp tax and donation are methods to get around with. Frankly, nobody is reponsible when it comes to donation. Corp tax taxing at source is the way to go. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 23:14:00 - [96] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire 1) Yes, 2.5b tax. 2) He could sell at 2.80 ISK per unit and make 28b sale and pay 2.8b tax. In effect, he would make 4b in profit which is 1.2b profit after tax. 3) He could find a low tax corp instead if giving 11M to corp is a bad thing. The point is that between two people who sell at the same price, one of them is getting the shaft, the other isn't. Again, this idea of yours discourages trade, but doesn't discourage sales.
Calidor Droks Caldari No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 23:35:00 - [97] Edited by: Calidor Droks on 30/08/2007 23:38:34 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire So what if your corp has busy players who can't find time to mine together. Corp tax and donation are methods to get around with. Frankly, nobody is reponsible when it comes to donation. Corp tax taxing at source is the way to go. You may also find the high earners in your corp unhappy that they are contributing more than others and getting nothing back in return. If you did reward them then you would be creating different social classes within your corp maybe. Imo mandatory fleet operations are the best way to raise resources/ISK and they can provide a big injection of resources as and when you need them. I see there are different views on this subject. I guess there would be no harm in having a new tax option, as long as it's fair. Corps could take it or leave it
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.31 00:24:00 - [98] Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but what about just increasing the already existing transaction taxes, and making the extra go to the corp. It seems to solve the basic problem, piggybacks on existing mechanics, and also happens to provide more incentive for people to get out of NPC corps. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Kelso Bluebane Minmatar Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.08.31 08:20:00 - [99] The principal problem with corp taxs atm are:- 1. Auditing is a pain, seeing who's paid what needs to be put into a league table, along with information such as hours online. 2. Theres no system for tax allowances or capping total amount paid per week. 3 Theres no system for setting a refining tax, corp could assign values for each mineral. The refining quote could then deduct a sum of isk based on these values and the current corp tax. 4 A traders tax is un-workable theres to many variables, there should be a set value of isk you can deduct from players defining themselves as traders. perhaps also based on hours online, again with a minimum / maximum per week. 5 theres no way to exempt players individually from tax. Would be handy for new players
cuteboylookingatyou	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:15:00 - [100] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire What is so huge about this tax administration system? What is huge is that if you can't figure out how to make members pay based on what they contribute then you are not meant to be a CEO in the first place. And no one here is about to give you ideas because that is the case with you. There is no way to make a tax system and keep traders in corps. It seems that you have something against traders.

cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:22:00 - [101] Well, if a CEO is good, he'll know how to help new players even with the tax factored in, via group ops, reimbursements, education, and other forms of assistance to new players. Meanwhile, the wealthy players make donations or provide valuable services, such as ship-building at reduced costs. Or, if it's a communist corporation, then all ships and items are provided for members by the corporation in the first place right?
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:24:00 - [102] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire So what if your corp has busy players who can't find time to mine together. Corp tax and donation are methods to get around with. Frankly, nobody is reponsible when it comes to donation. Corp tax taxing at source is the way to go. I don't disagree with corp taxes, I've instituted 100% tax for my corporation several times. All I am saying is that a tax on sales will not work. In your reply you say he should sell at 2.80. Guess what, noone will buy his trit at 2.80. You litterally would put a trader like that out of business if he were in your corp. If you want more variety in corp taxes you could have a corp wealth tax. But a corp trade tax would be extremely bad for traders in any corp which institutes it. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Lougra Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:28:00 - [103] Edited by: Lougra on 31/08/2007 09:31:20 What i would like to see implemented. A different percentage of tax rate in corps for Bounties (already exists), sell orders, contracts, and special discounts/charges in corporations based on faction standings. Is good if corporations has alternative ways to get the needed income without 'forcing' its members for mining operations or donations. Carebear is the surname that you got, if you enjoy to play eve, in other way than the rest want YOU to play it.
cuteboylookingatyou	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:29:00 - [104] Edited by: cuteboylookingatyou on 31/08/2007 09:29:41 Edited by: cuteboylookingatyou on 31/08/2007 09:29:29 Only a fully communist corp would want more taxes. They would set them all to 100% and have really active directors and CEO so the players would get something back immediately in the form of items or services. You litterally would put a trader like that out of business if he were in your corp. That is the whole idea behind this thread.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:39:00 - [105] This is the worst idea ever... fortunately, even if it were implemented, it would be self-correcting; traders and manufacturers would simply leave any corp stupid enough to tax them into negative income.
Lougra Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:49:00 - [106] Edited by: Lougra on 31/08/2007 09:53:35 Originally by: cuteboylookingatyou Edited by: cuteboylookingatyou on 31/08/2007 09:29:41 Edited by: cuteboylookingatyou on 31/08/2007 09:29:29 Only a fully communist corp would want more taxes. They would set them all to 100% and have really active directors and CEO so the players would get something back immediately in the form of items or services. You litterally would put a trader like that out of business if he were in your corp. That is the whole idea behind this thread. Don't think too much. It might burn your brain Carebear is the surname that you got, if you enjoy to play eve, in other way than the rest want YOU to play it.


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