Originally by: Rodj Blake

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The smart people out there were already using neutralisers in addition to vampires.

Neutralisers are actually quite effective on the Pilgrim.

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Originally by: Depp Knight

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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The smart people out there were already using neutralisers in addition to vampires.

Neutralisers are actually quite effective on the Pilgrim.

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Yeh they are if you use 1 neut, your two nos would pay for it. This is not the case anymore

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Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts

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get a curse and wtfpwn ppl

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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Originally by: Depp Knight

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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The smart people out there were already using neutralisers in addition to vampires.

Neutralisers are actually quite effective on the Pilgrim.

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Yeh they are if you use 1 neut, your two nos would pay for it. This is not the case anymore

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The solution is quite elegant. I'm sure that you or someone in your alliance be able to work out how to do it

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Originally by: CreoNeo

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Use neutralizers to get their capacitor down,
then use capacitor injectors to get your own cap back up again quickly.

Would that work on the pilgrim ?

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Edited by: Aramendel on 28/08/2007 19:53:34

Originally by: CreoNeo

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Use neutralizers to get their capacitor down,
then use capacitor injectors to get your own cap back up again quickly.

Would that work on the pilgrim ?

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Technically, yes.

However there are 2 problems with that.

- Ew? Which EW? If you fit no MWD you have 2 med slots free then (1 injector, 1 web, 1 scram; and will likely die to a halfway competent bubblecamp). If you fit one thats 1 free med for EW. That is not terribly efficient to avoid damage.

- heeeello webrange. As a pilgrim you have to tank some dps (likely quite some more postpatch since you'll have less EW) since you cannot use range as "tank". You will have problems fueling your reps and neuts with a single capinjector. And even if you will burn cap charges fast. Very fast.


With a curse this is far more feasible since it has 1 more med for EW and has a higher range. 2 damps will for example get most BSs without sensorbooster to below 20k, which is just fine. Or you can loose the LSE2 and fit 3 damps.
The pilgrim however does not have these options.

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Originally by: Etho Demerzel

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The thing I find most amusing is your weird concept that you MUST fit Web and Scram in all ships...

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Originally by: Aramendel

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3.7 AU/sec actually. Only cov ops frigs and half of the inties warp 13.5

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Edited by: Aramendel on 28/08/2007 21:07:44
Or, better, something which will work efficiently for BCs and BSs. VS cruisers I see workable setups, but I'd rather use a rapier there (which is also better vs smaller stuff and has a far superior gang performance).

Oh, well, I sold my pilgrim 1 week ago. Will prolly reuse most mods on a sacriledge. The pilgrims price devlopement in the next 1-2 months will be ...interesting.

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Originally by: Rodj Blake

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The smart people out there were already using neutralisers in addition to vampires.

Neutralisers are actually quite effective on the Pilgrim.

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Originally by: Swamp Ziro

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vs BC and BS?


A pilgrim/curse had trouble* vs a competent BC pilot even before the nos nerf. Trying to get a setup that consistently wins against those types post-patch is a bit too far-fetched, don't you think?


*By trouble, I mean couldn't win consisntently.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Swamp Ziro

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vs BC and BS?


A pilgrim/curse had trouble* vs a competent BC pilot even before the nos nerf. Trying to get a setup that consistently wins against those types post-patch is a bit too far-fetched, don't you think?


*By trouble, I mean couldn't win consisntently.

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Depends, the 2 damp, 1 ECM burst setup wasn't too bad. Or 2 TDs vs a turret battleship.

But, yes, it wasn't *that* hot before patch. It wasn't that bad so I would call it underpowered, though, either.

The problem is in the end that by its basic design the pilgrim is really only a 1v1 ship. In gangs its just a slightly glorified arbitrator - the other force recons can do so much more there.

And vs cruisers a rapier with 2 damps will be at the very least equally efficient as the pilgrim. 200 dps are not the world, but enough to break cruiser tanks.

I just do not see any area where I would rather use a pilgrim than another ship, nor is the pilgrim a jack of all trades which would justify it being master in none.

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Originally by: Swamp Ziro

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So, yeah, maybe some other ship does what the arbi can do better, but what you really need to compare is how good that role is being done inter-racially. Does the pilgrim bring something useful to the Amarr lineup? If yes, so yeah, It's a useful ship, and the other races be damned.


To give you an example of my way of thinking. Hurricane (Non-nano) is weak compared to a myrmi or even a drake. Do I think it's bad ship? Not at all. Minmatar certainly needed what hurricane brings to the table, even if you can do it better if you crosstrain another race.

EDIT: CLARIFICATION: I am not saying that the pilgrim didn't get nerfed too much. I don't fly Amarr, I don't have an opinion on this. I'm just saying to look at the ship on its race's merit, not globally.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Originally by: Swamp Ziro

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So, yeah, maybe some other ship does what the arbi can do better, but what you really need to compare is how good that role is being done inter-racially. Does the pilgrim bring something useful to the Amarr lineup? If yes, so yeah, It's a useful ship, and the other races be damned.


To give you an example of my way of thinking. Hurricane (Non-nano) is weak compared to a myrmi or even a drake. Do I think it's bad ship? Not at all. Minmatar certainly needed what hurricane brings to the table, even if you can do it better if you crosstrain another race.

EDIT: CLARIFICATION: I am not saying that the pilgrim didn't get nerfed too much. I don't fly Amarr, I don't have an opinion on this. I'm just saying to look at the ship on its race's merit, not globally.

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Globally is the only sensible way to look at ships.

For example. A good while ago there was little-no stacking on damagemods. And pulse lasers had a good deal better range.

What did we got there? The gankgeddon. 7 pulses. 8 damagemods. Time to vaporize other ships: short. Veeery short.

Did it "bring something useful to the Amarr lineup"? Yes. Oh so very much yes.

However it essentially made all other BSs obsolete. It was just so much better that there was no point in flying anything else.

That is the "balance" you get when you do not look at ships globally. Any ship should definately bring something useful in its races inventory and not be another ship which does the same thing. However this is only secondary. First and foremost it HAS to be balanced with all ships of the same class. Otherwise you can get very undesireable results.

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Originally by: Swamp Ziro

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I don't think every race's ship on a certain ship class has to be balanced. I think it's ok for 1 race to have say, clearly the better tier3 cruiser, or another race having the vastly better tier2 bc, or another race have the hands down best ratting BS.

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Originally by: Kali Ananda

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I am deeply saddened by the Nerf on this ship. Since cap boosting is now basically a requirement, long deep forays into enemy 0.0 space is no longer an option. That was a real beauty of the Pilgrim, solo incursions into hostile systems. But once those 9 cap boosters are gone, you are screwed.

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Originally by: Semkhet

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Edited by: Semkhet on 28/08/2007 22:52:58
The NOS nerf has damaged the Curse & irrevocably screwed the Pilgrim. I've spent countless hours on SiSi and did not find a single viable setup.

I am amazed by all the geniuses who compare the actual situation to the pre-nerf period arguing that pilots were already using NOS/NEUT combos, while forgetting that if NEUTS still work the same way, the new NOS drain capacity isn't...

The amount of cap which can be neuted is more or less the Curse/Pilgrim cap / 0.35 (recon lvl5 with med unstables). Admitting that the base cap available = 1562 and that you use it exclusively to activate your NEUTS, then this would give 1562/0.35 = 4462. Beyond that, the only way to neutralize more cap is to use a cap injector.

Now since nossing and neuting is done "blindly" because you don't know exactly what is the cap charge of your opponent and have to wait until you see some detectable effect (no repping anymore or whatever), there's a delay which prevents you to micromanage efficiently your own cap and you will often either neut more than necessary or neut not enough.

Then, more you neut your opponent, less you can expect your NOS to be effective when you go against small and medium ships, while when you go against a bigger foe, more you neut more you are screwing your own cap required by the other mods in your setup.

And here we come to the main NOS-nerf stupidity: Amarr ships are usually designed to accomodate active setups and cap-hungry mods. However the nerf doesen't allow the Curse/Pilgrim to use their mods the way they are intended without having to almost empty their own cap. What implies that you can't rely anymore to a cap buffer to activate mods which requires loads of cap like reppers or MWD's if you want to use the ship's bonuses.

For example a 10MN T2 MWD requires around 160 cap by cycle. A Curse's cap is reduced to 1170 when using it, so if you need your MWD on, it means that your cap can't go under 13,5 %, and if you micromanage to reserve this buffer, you either can't nos your opponent for less than 13.5 % of his own cap, and if you neut it you will kill your next MWD cycle...

Then if you use a cap injector, which charge will you use ? Injectors work on a 12 second cycle, like the neuts. 2 neuts = 127.5x2 = 255 cap lost. 200 cap charges are too small. And the 400 ? Too big, and might move the relationship between your cap vs your target's cap in a zone where your NOS doesn't drain anymore...

You know what ? Balance my ass. The Curse and the Pilgrim have been turned into the only ships in game which screw themselves all by them alone when you use the ships as they are intended to.

I'm not even talking about the use for Talisman implants...

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Originally by: Insidi Us

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But since the NOS change will not go away, what are your suggestions to fix the Pilgrim/Curse? A lot of people are complaining, but what change would you like the devs to make? Since they are e-war boats, what other form of it should be added to the Pilgrim bonuses?

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Originally by: Feng Schui

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On a Pilgrim, using 1 NOS, 2 Neuts, MWD, Web, Scram, Med Cap Injector (w/ 800's).. 1x MAR II and a DC II... you can run sustained for 3.6 minutes, this is with recon 4, energy emissions 4, and the cap skills to level 5.

3.6 minutes is how long a full cargo bay + 1 in the hold, cap boosters will last (80% cap or so per booster).

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Originally by: Depp Knight

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Ok well I just tested the pilgrim against my alt who was in a thron. I can safely say that the pilgrim is totally dog ****.

From this small test I can say that nos is very pointless in this game unless it can work on npcs like it use to. However sadly the pilgrim is officially the worst TII ship in the game; I think retribution may be better than the pilgrim.

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Originally by: zero2espect

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i'm posting once and once only regarding this completeley R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D nerf - tbh i just can't bring myself to care as much as i know i should about this topic, becuase CCP have basically just declared amarr the biatch race to gallente -> "oooh aaaaah everybody fears the nos-domi and nos-myrmi so we're going to fix it and smack you in the process"

i love tech2 amarr ships. there. i've said it. from the early days of the game i love everything about amarr. the way the ships look. the back story. the way they are "supposed to" fit and fight. everything about the nos nerf goes contrary to ccps own back story and is a knife in the heart to amarr pilots. after all, nos is an amarrian weapon and amarrian ships are DESIGNED TO INCORPORATE THEM - and now they're useless, forcing us to fit cap injectors into ships that DONT HAVE THE MEDS TO FIT THEM. so this brings me to go back on topic.

the pilgrim has been broken for quite some time. i loved the pilgrim in the early days. it was never a gate camping ship. it's a trawler. it was genuinely challenging and fun. sneaky, sneaky, pounce and kill. we're talking no mwd. nos, jammers and drones days ladies. then ccp nerfed jammers and forced the reliance on rsb or td. the pigrim was dead from that day on. not being able to prevent damage done to it, in the days of nano ships meant it was a losing proposition. apart from a few "tribute" days, my pilgrim is in mothballs, stripped and sitting in a hanger. there is no viable setup for the ship now. i've tried. the fact there is even discussion of cap injectors on a ship that has bonuses supposed to work on nos/neut and one of the lowest number of med slots for any recon in the game is a dire statement on the intelligence of the nerf in the 1st place. if you haven't learned by now, when ccp say "trust us, we know this will impact amarr recons but will buff them ship to compensate" they mean, sell your stuff loser and make way for more minmatard speed-fan-boy pilots.

don't get me wrong - i'm not criticising ANYBODY in this thread about your setups, but i'm telling you, you will realise that you're wasting your time and that CCP is to blame. it's not even "challenging" or "fun" or "rewarding" to fly that ship anymore. it's just sad. you don't have the dps or the tank or the speed or the range or the ew to do anything other than tour highsec in your beautiful, golden hulled ship as a tribute to better times in this game.

keep posting your setups in here, but with every additional, desperate post, everybody will just see that it's a waste of time. cross deck over to gallente, at least your non laser turret skills, tanking and drone skills will mean that your training time for the arazu (the next most capable recon and similar flying style to old-skool pilgrim usage) will be relatively short.

from my movies, my curse setup is well known. 2 heavy launchers, 2 nos, 1 neut, single rep, mwd and 4 ewar mods. no fanboy-ultra-fast-speed setups for me. while this is viable in the current setup it's still painfully deficient. the fact that i've fought "cap warfare" my entire career (been amarr from day0) and i'm more conscious of keeping my grid high through an entire fight, now i've been completely owned by a set of devs who have probably never flown amarr ever (which is painfully obvious now).

anybody who tells me that fitting a neut to the zealot, prohecy, harbinger, absolution, maller, omen, gheddon or apoc to fight a "stand up" fight, go ahead - but i know, and you know, you're just having a laugh. if ccp want more sneaky-bastardised-exploit setups and fights in the game then this nerf is the biggest thing they've ever done to introduce it. if they wanted, fair, honest and challenging gameplay they had the chance, with the other suggested fixes and went this way.

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Originally by: king jks

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2x med unstable
med nos II
cloak

10mn AB II
20k
web
electrochem medium
balmers TD

2x MAR II
TS thermal
TS kinetic
DC II

2x aux nano

»\(¦_o)/»

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Originally by: Baherroth

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by the way, ive got a better curse setup now, i worked it out
with my skills i can take a bs to 0 cap in 2 or 3 rounds

4 x Medium Unstable Neut
1 x Recon Probe Launcher

10mn Afterburner II
Warp Disruptor II
4 x Sensor Damp II

4 x Cap Power Relay II

Rigs : 2 cap Rigs

you can PERMANENTLY run the neuts, ab, disruptor AND damps with decent skills, and stay at about 22-24km range, still a PERFECT 1v1 Ship, BUT
you will have to realize that your tank is the DAMPS
if anyone else shows up, get out ASAP - cos even like before, you'll die if any SERIOUS support shows up

Thanks
Bah

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Originally by: Arkios Odymei

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Currently the Pilgrim (and Curse) have this bonus:
"20% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer transfer amount" resulting in a 100% bonus to the drain amount at Recon lvl 5.

What IF the bonus was changed to:
"15% bonus to Energy Vampire / Energy Neutralizer transfer amount and capacitor usage" resulting in a 75% bonus to nos/neut drain amount and a 75% reduction to neut cap usage at Recon lvl 5.

This new bonus sacrifices 25% of the previous drain amount bonus for better Neutralizer sustainability. Pre-patch, the Pilgrim was able to use it's nos to fuel it's neutralizer(s) aswell as it's own defenses. Currently Post-patch, it is unable to do this... but if the bonus were to change as above, the Pilgrim will be able to perform the role of energy neutralizing without requiring the nos as much to sustain it.

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Originally by: Insidi Us

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I'm selling my Pilgrim once I get back into the game. But since the NOS change will not go away, what are your suggestions to fix the Pilgrim/Curse? A lot of people are complaining, but what change would you like the devs to make? Since they are e-war boats, what other form of it should be added to the Pilgrim bonuses?

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Originally by: Rialtor

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I thought that there were some other successful builds floating around for the curse at least that didn't use nos. Or was I mistaken when people were talking about some kind of nano based, shield tanking, missle wielding Curse?

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Originally by: IamBen

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I believe that the Amarr recon is going to be doomed to be like caldari recons, excellent in gangs but not solo pwnmobiles like they previously were.

A curse can quickly drain a bs's cap while an assisting ship can put out the damage. Basically, the amarr recons are now solid gang ships

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Originally by: Depp Knight

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2 problems on that set up.

You relying on the ecm burst to get the jam and also, a ab with no web. Ships will just fly away from you.

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Originally by: N1fty

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3 words:

Egress Port Maximizer.

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