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Still no fix for cloaking?

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d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.30 02:05:00 - [301] Originally by: Kyusoath Orillian using cloaking in the way the op said is the same as sitting docked, you want a fix for that, cos you can't attack someone whos docked. at least we can shoot the station!
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.30 03:21:00 - [302] You could be at keyboard and invulnerably cloaked... watching local or something. Imbalanced? Yes. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive Animal.	Posted - 2007.08.30 03:30:00 - [303] People really don't think hard enough these days. The gripe about whether the offending pilots may be afk or not is entirely irrelevant, since 'defenders' must assume the 'invaders' are atk and present an immediate threat. Indeed, whether the pilot is afk or not, his payed-for account is active and logged in, and that is all that matters. So, the only argument for boosting probes/ nerfing cloaks with any virtue, is that some sovereign 0.0 residents don't feel they have adequate tools to defend strategic locations (carebearing gangs, gates to sovereign system etc.) from cloaked non-cov-ops ships. When considering possible solutions to this issue, it is important to prioritise those that would cause the least possible disruption to wider game balance. So you don't start by looking for a solution that will enable cloaked ships to be found, wherever they may be. Instead, you should try to find a solution which prevents cloaked ships from unleashing surprise attacks on well organised gangs, carebear or otherwise. This line of thought should logically bring you to the conclusion that, if you need anything at all, you actually need a deployable device that decloaks non-cov-ops ships within a fixed radius. I wouldn't support that either, but it is a more logical counter to the threat which being presented as the main bugbear of cloaks.
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.30 03:38:00 - [304] The fuel for non-covops cloaks or even making cloaked ships probe-able both work. Good point about defending space though, Tom. Exactly what I was trying to convey. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
podadot	Posted - 2007.08.30 06:08:00 - [305] Personally, I love the idea that was suggested of tying cloaking device cap usage to mass or sig radius of the ship with possible exceptions for covops and recons. Makes sense, is fair, etc.
Edey Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.30 07:38:00 - [306] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 29/08/2007 03:16:35 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 29/08/2007 03:08:56 When are we going to get a fix for cloaking? In it's current implementation it's very un-eve-like. There are no counters for cloaking ships - A player who is completely inactive, sitting in system indefinitely, can avoid detection from active players hunting or scouting for them. Where is the counter to this? Where does the balance lay? No other weapon or defensive system in game has no counter, so why do we continue to allow this module to exist in game without a counter? What purpose does this module serve that can't still be accomplished with an active player? [Edit: I'm not going to waste your time with some huge diatribe, my question is straight to the point. I'm willing to keep this on page 1 until I hear an answer, one way or another, as to why there's no counter to an uncounterable defensive system. What difference is there in this vs. an unstoppable ship? Both are unbalanced...] For those who believe the devs aren't going to change things even slightly... And a link for the words directly from the Devs themselves There is nothing broken. Fix is not needed. Everything is fine. If you can't catch a cloaking carebear this is YOUR problem.
Zibun Ionic Minmatar Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:11:00 - [307] Edited by: Zibun Ionic on 30/08/2007 11:14:48 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds ...Instead, you should try to find a solution which prevents cloaked ships from unleashing surprise attacks on well organised gangs, carebear or otherwise. This line of thought should logically bring you to the conclusion that, if you need anything at all, you actually need a deployable device that decloaks non-cov-ops ships within a fixed radius. I thought almost exactly same thing(except it would decloak covops aswell). Some kind of high slot item perhaps, that will - let's say - decloak all ships within 20km radius (rad might be more, but less might not be useful). Keeping the item high slot might prevent solo-gankers just fit em and go uncloaking carebears cloaking on the gates. -Z Cloaca Maxima - The Sewage of Amarr Empire.
Constable Detritus PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:08:00 - [308] Originally by: d026 simple solutions: 1. cloaks need fuel! 1h cloaking = 1 full covops cargohold of fuel. Hilarious, at the most... Try collecting intel within one hour. Also, where to store all those probes? I need to get there in the first place, too. Going there = 30 mins, maybe avoiding hostile gang, oops, 10mins of fuel gone already... Originally by: d026 2. 15 min cycle on cloak after that you have to reactivate your cloak after a delay of 10mins (can be reduced to 5 min with a skill) This is so dumb, I can't even think of a counter point /emote listens to the inner void Originally by: d026 anyway cloaking in its current form is broke and needs changed. no 100% safety in eve please! Well, a Covops ship won't do jack to you. If you want safety in your ratting / home systems from a Covops, keep their mates from reaching your systems! Also, there is no 100% safety in a Covops/Recon. If you now what you are doing and if you know your systems well, it actually is quite easy to catch a cloaker. No, I won't tell to the forums what I fear most If however you are talking about cloaks on non-designated ships, you have my fair support. Cloaks should be a means of psychological warfare and not a "get out of jail" card for makros, power farmers or pvp gangs who suddenly find themselves outnumbered. ______________________________________ Goberth Ludwig: Joshua has a pillow with molle printed on it.
Aem White-Noise Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:19:00 - [309] Wouldn't mind seeing a nerf for Ravens, fitting a cloak uses 350cpu or the such. Would be nice to catch an isk farmer once in a while.
Scouteye Ghost Vanguard	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:19:00 - [310] Originally by: sharkyballs Edited by: sharkyballs on 29/08/2007 14:19:10 Originally by: Scouteye hes an argument for you! whats the counter to probes............ a CLOAK! there you go, BALANCE! jeee wizzz, its not that hard to figure out really! and a NERF to fitting requirments or effects on your ship IS a counter, hence the changes to NOS, or stopping tanking with cyno ships train a cloak and fly one for a while, you'll soon see it dont need nerfed. PROBING CLOAKS IS NOT A COUNTER TO CLOAKS, IT IS AN I WIN BUTTON AGAINST THEM. please re read my comment, im on your side there are calls for balance and counters, where is the modualr counter to probes...??? its a cloak, hence why cloaks wont be nerfed as they are the counter to probes... you getting me... again, im on your side shark

Scouteye Ghost Vanguard	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:22:00 - [311] Originally by: VinnyTheBull Explain how this is balanced. 8 guys in cloaked ships camp the gate to the 0.0 space that your alliance owns and sits there all day. When they feel like it, they uncloak and blast any ships coming through the gate into your system. Now that they are active and shooting your people you decide to fight back and remove them from their 23/7 gate camp. Oh no, they just cloaked again, I guess they can just go afk until your force leaves then continue to blast people entering the system when you leave. Rinse and repeat. The cloaked ships fight completely on their terms, If they don't feel like fighting they leave their computer, go watch t.v. or play on their other accounts then come back when your gone. The noncloaked ships looking to remove the pests from their systems have no way of engaging the claoked ships, all they can do is camp their gate 23/7, which requires them to be active that entire time at their computers. The cloaked ships however can be afk anytime they feel like it safe and sound until the attackers leave. Why would it be bad to have probes that can slowly detect where a cloaked ship would be? They would practically be ineffective against a cloaked ship is piloted by someone paiyng half attention and moving their ship around. It would only really be effective against someone afk not moving for hours. so you never thought of sticking a large bubble on the other side of all the exit gates with a camp on each one with intys ready to decloak hostiles and then leaving the system the hostiles are in and waiting them out and killing them when they leave? you never thought of that?? tactics tactics and patience is ALL that is required to get a covert
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:25:00 - [312] Originally by: Scouteye Originally by: VinnyTheBull Explain how this is balanced. 8 guys in cloaked ships camp the gate to the 0.0 space that your alliance owns and sits there all day. When they feel like it, they uncloak and blast any ships coming through the gate into your system. Now that they are active and shooting your people you decide to fight back and remove them from their 23/7 gate camp. Oh no, they just cloaked again, I guess they can just go afk until your force leaves then continue to blast people entering the system when you leave. Rinse and repeat. The cloaked ships fight completely on their terms, If they don't feel like fighting they leave their computer, go watch t.v. or play on their other accounts then come back when your gone. The noncloaked ships looking to remove the pests from their systems have no way of engaging the claoked ships, all they can do is camp their gate 23/7, which requires them to be active that entire time at their computers. The cloaked ships however can be afk anytime they feel like it safe and sound until the attackers leave. Why would it be bad to have probes that can slowly detect where a cloaked ship would be? They would practically be ineffective against a cloaked ship is piloted by someone paiyng half attention and moving their ship around. It would only really be effective against someone afk not moving for hours. so you never thought of sticking a large bubble on the other side of all the exit gates with a camp on each one with intys ready to decloak hostiles and then leaving the system the hostiles are in and waiting them out and killing them when they leave? you never thought of that?? tactics tactics and patience is ALL that is required to get a covert It's easier to fight on the forums demanding nerfs as opposed to ingame . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Scouteye Ghost Vanguard	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:30:00 - [313] Originally by: VinnyTheBull Seriously every person who is defending cloaks is a coward and only wants to engage on their own terms without any risk of dieing at all. That is not what EVE is. I am sorry to break it to you cloaking carebears. Anti-cloak probes would not be an instant win I found you your dead button. They would add balance to them. If you want to saddle up and play PVP then you have to actually take some risks. That is how it should be. You should not be able to go into enemy space and fight when you "feel like it". If your going to come into hostile space and the owners of that space are willing to gang up and defend it they have a right to be able to find you. You should not be able to just afk cloak until they leave then continue to harass the occupiers without any risk of being retaliated on. IM A WHAT! oh you got a billion and one thngs to learn about EVE mate, a lot. I fly a covert because i like to sneak up on people and blow them up and get a kill and do a job for my corp and for my alliance and make a dent in the oposisions walet do YOU suggest that every one fly a fing T2 BS into every figth just so you can see them, you simply cant be bothered to adapt, you want EVERYTHING laid on a plate for you so its easy, and THAT is being a coward, not prepeair to put the EFFORT into finding someone OMG im sooo MAD, a coward! you have NO idea
heheheh Singularity. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:35:00 - [314] Nothing wrong, needs no fix.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.30 12:46:00 - [315] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds People really don't think hard enough these days. The gripe about whether the offending pilots may be afk or not is entirely irrelevant, since 'defenders' must assume the 'invaders' are atk and present an immediate threat. Indeed, whether the pilot is afk or not, his payed-for account is active and logged in, and that is all that matters. So, the only argument for boosting probes/ nerfing cloaks with any virtue, is that some sovereign 0.0 residents don't feel they have adequate tools to defend strategic locations (carebearing gangs, gates to sovereign system etc.) from cloaked non-cov-ops ships. When considering possible solutions to this issue, it is important to prioritise those that would cause the least possible disruption to wider game balance. So you don't start by looking for a solution that will enable cloaked ships to be found, wherever they may be. Instead, you should try to find a solution which prevents cloaked ships from unleashing surprise attacks on well organised gangs, carebear or otherwise. This line of thought should logically bring you to the conclusion that, if you need anything at all, you actually need a deployable device that decloaks non-cov-ops ships within a fixed radius. I wouldn't support that either, but it is a more logical counter to the threat which being presented as the main bugbear of cloaks. yar - all these probe and scan *****s dont really care if cloaking as a profession was removed entirely - they cant think logically to only remove afk cloakers ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Postlatta Mouseanon	Posted - 2007.08.30 14:14:00 - [316] Originally by: Scouteye Originally by: VinnyTheBull Seriously every person who is defending cloaks is a coward and only wants to engage on their own terms without any risk of dieing at all. That is not what EVE is. I am sorry to break it to you cloaking carebears. Anti-cloak probes would not be an instant win I found you your dead button. They would add balance to them. If you want to saddle up and play PVP then you have to actually take some risks. That is how it should be. You should not be able to go into enemy space and fight when you "feel like it". If your going to come into hostile space and the owners of that space are willing to gang up and defend it they have a right to be able to find you. You should not be able to just afk cloak until they leave then continue to harass the occupiers without any risk of being retaliated on. IM A WHAT! oh you got a billion and one thngs to learn about EVE mate, a lot. I fly a covert because i like to sneak up on people and blow them up and get a kill and do a job for my corp and for my alliance and make a dent in the oposisions walet do YOU suggest that every one fly a fing T2 BS into every figth just so you can see them, you simply cant be bothered to adapt, you want EVERYTHING laid on a plate for you so its easy, and THAT is being a coward, not prepeair to put the EFFORT into finding someone OMG im sooo MAD, a coward! you have NO idea Coward in a mining barge even. "I'll chase him 'round the moons of Nibia and 'round the Antares Maelstrom and 'round perdition's flames before I give him up."-- Khan Noonien Singh
Jade190	Posted - 2007.08.30 14:20:00 - [317] Since this thread will never die. I'll just bump it to the top and say nerf everything on the following list: CLOAKS RAILGUNS BLASTERS ECM DAMPS SHIELD TANKS ARMOR TANKS ARTILLERY AUTOCANNONS PULSE LASERS BEAM LASERS MINING BARGES MINING LASERS STATIONS CONCORD LITTLE WHITE BUNNIES AND CHEESE That is all....
Postlatta Mouseanon	Posted - 2007.08.30 14:23:00 - [318] Originally by: Jade190 Since this thread will never die. I'll just bump it to the top and say nerf everything on the following list: CLOAKS RAILGUNS BLASTERS ECM DAMPS SHIELD TANKS ARMOR TANKS ARTILLERY AUTOCANNONS PULSE LASERS BEAM LASERS MINING BARGES MINING LASERS STATIONS CONCORD LITTLE WHITE BUNNIES AND CHEESE That is all.... But strip miners can now do 5672 damage? Cool!
Jade190	Posted - 2007.08.30 14:25:00 - [319] That's nothing compared to what Bunnies can do to your hull.
sharkyballs Amarr Dkiller Delta Force Corp. Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 14:42:00 - [320] ccp, please nerf anyone who starts a nerf something thread.

Exlegion KnightRaven Research KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 14:49:00 - [321] Edited by: Exlegion on 30/08/2007 14:57:30 I don't know if it's already been said, since I haven't read all 11 pages yet, but here are my thoughts on the issue: I travel through NPC 0.0 sec. Sometimes I go 5 jumps without an NPC station to dock in. While traveling very aware of my surroundings and checking who's in the system (i.e. NOT AFK'ING), I'm being actively hunted, sometimes by roaming gangs of 10 vs my one self. They'll drop bubbles near all gates once they know I'm in the system (which by the way, what's the counter to bubbles? ). The only thing that keeps me alive is my cloak, PERIOD. Yeah yeah, "bring your own blob... blah blah". My point is cloaks have other uses besides cloaking and AFK'ing. There are no counters to bubbles, and no counters to blobs. IF cloaks are nerfed a 0.0 system will be 100% locked down by blobs. And the only way to travel through it will be by bringing your own blob, since otherwise it'll mean death to the traveller and as always, minimal risk to the blobbers. I suspect that this witch hunt against cloaks is really about making it easier for blobs to rake up more points on their killboards. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Bendit	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:32:00 - [322] I have a few questions to the people screaming for a cloak nerf. 1: What is the counter to probes? 2: What will the point be in fitting a cloak if you can scan it down like any other ship without a cloak. 3: And many people are crying about people comming into their system cloaking up and just beeing there. And while the dev`s said once that the covert op cloak will work as before, how will that change anything? He will still be cloaked, you will still not be able to find him and you will still be crying about this lone "afk" cloaker in the system.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:35:00 - [323] Originally by: Bendit 1: What is the counter to probes? Paying attention to your scanner and warping away Quote: 2: What will the point be in fitting a cloak if you can scan it down like any other ship without a cloak. To probe down a cloaker will require you to work your way down through the probes from the system-wide probes down to the 5 AU ones, instead of just jumping to the 5AU ones via scanner use. The cloak will make scanning you out incredibly difficult. Quote: He will still be cloaked, you will still not be able to find him... Which is why the change should be applied to all cloaks, with prototype cloaks the easiest to find, and covert cloaks verging on impossible.
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:42:00 - [324] Originally by: Zibun Ionic It's not that imbalanced. Local watchers can sit on the station as well assuming there are stations about. If there ain't, there usually ain't a lot to watch either.-Z Not only is your "no station, not important" opinion wrong, but there are also these things called "Outposts" which are player-controlled stations. They don't allow docking rights for just anyone... To all the people saying: "Cloakers aren't hurting anyone, let them be!": Can I get a module that will make me invulnerable to probing while I'm running a mission? I'm not hurting anyone. Thanks in advance. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:46:00 - [325] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Bendit 1: What is the counter to probes? Paying attention to your scanner and warping away LOL And the counter to cloaks if that is considered a "counter"? Paying attention to local and leaving the system. Its actually EASIER to counter the cloak, since the bubble might be on the OTHER side of the gate.... Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:49:00 - [326] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Paying attention to local and leaving the system. Why should someone leave the system they've invested tens of billions of ISK into, because someone is sitting in local with a 2mil ISK cloak?
Yagyu Retsudo Yagyu Holdings	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:55:00 - [327] Originally by: Constable Detritus "get out of jail" card for Moms and Titans Capitals should not be able to cloak at all - period. That's the only change really required. Also, for those whining about people sitting in their back systems cloaked, perhaps the sov 2(3?) system scanner should pick up everyone cloaked but not using a cov ops cloak. Think of it as an acceptable compromise that sees the system scanner have a practical use.
sharkyballs Amarr Dkiller Delta Force Corp. Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:55:00 - [328] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Paying attention to local and leaving the system. Why should someone leave the system they've invested tens of billions of ISK into, because someone is sitting in local with a 2mil ISK cloak? because then you could go about your day and not be paranoid about the hostile in system. it's just as stupid as your suggested "counter" and semi-proves nothing needs changing. because checking scanner is about like saying checking local, it's not a counter because your scanner doesn't pinpoint like a probe does. hence, it's flawed.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:59:00 - [329] Originally by: sharkyballs because then you could go about your day and not be paranoid about the hostile in system. Or. I could kill them, then go about my day? Instead of cowering in fear 4 systems away hoping he leaves of his own accord. Quote: because checking scanner is about like saying checking local, it's not a counter because your scanner doesn't pinpoint like a probe does. hence, it's flawed. Who mentioned scanners? The fix specifically states that scanners will not pick up cloakers, but probes will (with an added amount of difficulty and innaccuracy). The lack of scanner means that you have to use every single probe, which means you need a near-max skilled probe pilot. This means teamwork, and effort.
sharkyballs Amarr Dkiller Delta Force Corp. Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:01:00 - [330] who mentioned it? Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Bendit 1: What is the counter to probes? Paying attention to your scanner and warping away uh, you did?



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