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Hedonistic Imperative: Official Statement

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Kayleigh Lothian Minmatar KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.02 23:00:00 - [31] Tbh there should not even have been a chance of this mistake to be made. Did someone answer the MC question in MC gang chat? If not, how could such an important question have gone unanswered? I can understand that you feel cheated out of what could have been a nice fight, but that's what happens when schedules get messed up/delayed and there are little/non information. ----------------------
The Socialworker Minmatar The Socialworkers	Posted - 2007.09.02 23:09:00 - [32] just what i was going to post evil synns. Down on your blocks - marks... set ... -stop- you loose , and then you spit in the dirrection of the referee, understandable in my book. The Oxford v Cambridge boat race has run 152 times. Referees mess up sometimes, but they let the best team win out in the end after restarts. (I have no alliance affilitation here)
Eamz Endgame.	Posted - 2007.09.03 00:06:00 - [33] I think there should be a rematch. I could have easily made the mistake of firing as the pressure at the beginning would be great. Getting off a volley before being damped could be the difference between winning and losing and was most likely the reason the pilot had such itchy fingers. No GM reply and confirmed confusion on both sides, definitely should be a rematch.
Vando Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.03 00:17:00 - [34] I personally would have begun on seeing the line of text scroll after '1' without initially reading what that line said, assuming it to be 'GO'. GMs really should have reset the gamestate and gone again, but unfortunately having set a precedent with the Goonswarm decision yesterday they have no room to let things slide without provoking uproar. Essentially, they got that first decision wrong. Now, they have to make more wrong decisions to ensure that first wrong decision remains legitimate. I recommend that people try their hardest not to mess up AT ALL because you will likely be punished in line with this.
Masu'di Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.09.03 00:25:00 - [35] Edited by: Masu''di on 03/09/2007 00:27:17 Originally by: Eamz I think there should be a rematch. I could have easily made the mistake of firing as the pressure at the beginning would be great. Getting off a volley before being damped could be the difference between winning and losing and was most likely the reason the pilot had such itchy fingers. No GM reply and confirmed confusion on both sides, definitely should be a rematch. I would love to have a rematch, but unfortunately I don't think we will get one. CCP I doubt would find a slot for us, and I don't think Mercenary Coalition would want one either. They were very quick in local to call us disqualified. A shame all round, I think it would have been a great fight. MC had 3 Ravens and 6 Maulus, we had a Phoon, Apoc, 7 Stealth Bombers and a Maulus. We were roughly about 60kms apart, which was perfect for us. With a stealth bomber on each Maulus and with their better locking times, it would have been a close fight. The FoFs from the Ravens would have been our main worry, because the Mauluses would likely have been cleared within about 15 seconds. Es and Whizz is recruiting
Kirenna Zhon	Posted - 2007.09.03 00:28:00 - [36] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Imperator Jora'h But the rule was broken and there was really no other decision the GMs could have come to. I think this deserves expanding on too since I have seen many posts where people think the fight should have been allowed to proceed. First off I doubt any of us has a clue how easy it is for the Devs to spawn a ship. Maybe it is a simple press of a button...maybe it takes something more. I have no idea. But more than the ship are all its fittings. So not only do they need to spawn a ship but they would need to know, for certain, what all the mods were on that ship and spawn those along with the ship. They have a schedule to keep and I am betting doing all that is not a matter of a snap of Dev magic and it all just happens. Second, assume the GMs did say, "Eh...honest mistake. We'll respawn the ship." They have now set a precedent. Move forward to (for example) a BOB v. GOON match. While waiting for the match to start one or the other zaps an opponent's ship and goes, "Oops". Because the precedent was set the Devs would have to sort it out. Can you imagine the **** storm that would ensue from that? It could quite easily throw the tournament into chaos. In the end the forfeit was the ONLY appropriate response. Stinks to be sure but I cannot see how anyone could see it otherwise. In this example, it's really easy to do. They can "salvage" the destroyed ship, which returns the ship to the nearby station with all destroyed modules fitted already, and a gangmember brings you the non-destroyed fittings. 5-10 minutes and you're back in the blocks to try again. I wasn't there, I couldn't watch it, but from the logs it seems there was too little organization and communication going on. It wasn't until I read the other responses here that I realized that there was another match going on in local. That should never happen, since there is too much chance of crossed signals going on like we witnessed here. As for precedents, it's best that a bad one never get set in the first place. I'd like to find out what happened in the BoB vs. Goon match so I can follow what everyone else has been saying on the matter.
Masu'di Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.09.03 00:39:00 - [37] Originally by: Kirenna Zhon First off I doubt any of us has a clue how easy it is for the Devs to spawn a ship. Maybe it is a simple press of a button...maybe it takes something more. I have no idea. But more than the ship are all its fittings. After the decision had been made, we were asked to warp off, it did look like just before this the GMs fixed the Maulus that had been popped. I definitely remember the pod and wreck dissapearing about the same time. I'm not 100% sure though, and only a GM could answer if that was the case. In local a GM also stated a little earlier, "do not touch the wreck". I assume was referring to our arena rather than to someone in the other arena. I'd be a lot happier if the GMs made a statement and rethink how they can co-ordinate the two matches a bit better. Perhaps stating which arena exactly when they are talking in local. We had no idea that there was another fight going on at the time, and we were due to fight exactly when the count down started. Es and Whizz is recruiting
Andor Traxel Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:25:00 - [38] I do not agree with this ruling. A maulus was allowed to warp from the arena during our fight with MC, then warp back in and resume fighting. According to Rule #7 any ship that leaves the arena will be destroyed. The maulus pilot was in clear violation of the rules. Surely he must have known that if he dropped and warped back in he should not have re-engaged his sensor damps or weapons. If Hedonistic Imperative must forfeit then so must MC to us. There appears to be a double standard.
Excesse Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:29:00 - [39] Edited by: Excesse on 03/09/2007 01:29:50 Generally poor communication on the part of the GMs if you ask me - I probably would have been ready to pull the trigger at the end of that count-down as well. It's critical that when giving commands, you avoid any ambiguity. Having two groups in one place and giving them both co-inciding countdowns is bound to end up like this... Either keep people apart (seperate systems for seperate matches), have one GM controlling each fight (so that you know exactly who to listen to) or give each GM instructions to address groups with precursors or something else that ensures everyone knows who every communication is for. I'd like to see the two sides rematched - especially as it was only a maulus that popped; not very hard to replace, really.
Paniq Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:31:00 - [40] Originally by: Andor Traxel I do not agree with this ruling. A maulus was allowed to warp from the arena during our fight with MC, then warp back in and resume fighting. According to Rule #7 any ship that leaves the arena will be destroyed. The maulus pilot was in clear violation of the rules. Surely he must have known that if he dropped and warped back in he should not have re-engaged his sensor damps or weapons. If Hedonistic Imperative must forfeit then so must MC to us. There appears to be a double standard. You are forgetting that the GM's removed one of our Ravens instead of the Maulus, leaving us with only 2/3 of our heavy hitters. Since that was a mistake, and an admitted one on their behalf, they decided not to remove the Maulus as well. They did remove the other Maulus that disconnected and re-logged. You did not get the short stick in that drawing, we did.

Andor Traxel Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:41:00 - [41] Edited by: Andor Traxel on 03/09/2007 01:42:08 Originally by: Paniq Originally by: Andor Traxel I do not agree with this ruling. A maulus was allowed to warp from the arena during our fight with MC, then warp back in and resume fighting. According to Rule #7 any ship that leaves the arena will be destroyed. The maulus pilot was in clear violation of the rules. Surely he must have known that if he dropped and warped back in he should not have re-engaged his sensor damps or weapons. If Hedonistic Imperative must forfeit then so must MC to us. There appears to be a double standard. You are forgetting that the GM's removed one of our Ravens instead of the Maulus, leaving us with only 2/3 of our heavy hitters. Since that was a mistake, and an admitted one on their behalf, they decided not to remove the Maulus as well. They did remove the other Maulus that disconnected and re-logged. You did not get the short stick in that drawing, we did. I would have gladly traded the maulus for the raven under those circumstances at that time. It kept our 1200 dps abbadon from melting your ravens and my bouncer 2's from destroying your remaining maulus. Musician dropped from the battle arena when the teams where set, according to rule #7 his ship should have been destroyed anyway. This tournament is supposed to be fun. Where is the fun in arbitrary rulings like these. Like I said there "appears" to be be a double standard.
Sivona Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:47:00 - [42] Originally by: Andor Traxel Edited by: Andor Traxel on 03/09/2007 01:42:08 Originally by: Paniq Originally by: Andor Traxel I do not agree with this ruling. A maulus was allowed to warp from the arena during our fight with MC, then warp back in and resume fighting. According to Rule #7 any ship that leaves the arena will be destroyed. The maulus pilot was in clear violation of the rules. Surely he must have known that if he dropped and warped back in he should not have re-engaged his sensor damps or weapons. If Hedonistic Imperative must forfeit then so must MC to us. There appears to be a double standard. You are forgetting that the GM's removed one of our Ravens instead of the Maulus, leaving us with only 2/3 of our heavy hitters. Since that was a mistake, and an admitted one on their behalf, they decided not to remove the Maulus as well. They did remove the other Maulus that disconnected and re-logged. You did not get the short stick in that drawing, we did. I would have gladly traded the maulus for the raven under those circumstances at that time. It kept our 1200 dps abbadon from melting your ravens and my bouncer 2's from destroying your remaining maulus. Musician dropped from the battle arena when the teams where set, according to rule #7 his ship should have been destroyed anyway. This tournament is supposed to be fun. Where is the fun in arbitrary rulings like these. Like I said there "appears" to be be a double standard. Sorry to clarrify your arguing that the gm removing a raven instead of removing a maulus was too our advantage?
Andor Traxel Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:50:00 - [43] Yes.
Sivona Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:52:00 - [44] Originally by: Andor Traxel Yes. Without going into the issues of a 3 point ship being more important than a 27 point ship and all the additional power therein dont you feel your view is a bit presumptious seeing as you had no idea what the removed raven had fitted or could do to your team?
Andor Traxel Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Sivona Originally by: Andor Traxel Yes. Without going into the issues of a 3 point ship being more important than a 27 point ship and all the additional power therein dont you feel your view is a bit presumptious seeing as you had no idea what the removed raven had fitted or could do to your team? You forget we had 6 ships left in the arena at the time, four of which where fully capable of reducing your ravens lock rtange to less then 10km.
Andor Traxel Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa	Posted - 2007.09.03 02:11:00 - [46] The point is your maulus pilot was in violation of rule #7, as was magician when he left the arena after our teams were set, they both should have been healed zero under the rules. It was unlucky for you that the Raven dropped, but the rules should have been enforced then, as they where in the Hedonistic Imperative vrs MC match. We can argue till the stars go out who it affected more, but clearly it affected the outcome of the match. I will say no more.
Sivona Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.03 02:11:00 - [47] Originally by: Andor Traxel Originally by: Sivona Originally by: Andor Traxel Yes. Without going into the issues of a 3 point ship being more important than a 27 point ship and all the additional power therein dont you feel your view is a bit presumptious seeing as you had no idea what the removed raven had fitted or could do to your team? You forget we had 6 ships left in the arena at the time, four of which where fully capable of reducing your ravens lock rtange to less then 10km. No i dont forget, i do know how much losing that raven hurt us though and I do know we considered that maulus completely expendable. We could argue over red herrings all day however this is a thread about hedonistic imperatives statement not nebula's rasa sense of injustice that we lost a 27 point ship instead of a 3 point ship and so therefore going somewhat offtopic. The fact is that this result as of now stands, in general it seems most people view a raven as greater than a maulus and you honestly cannot say with any certainty especially in view of your lack of knowledge of how we were setup how this incident affected the match, anything else is pure speculation and really I dont see how its in any way productive unless of course you just wish to vent your frustrations at losing?
Dagam GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.03 02:26:00 - [48] I think his point was that if "rules are rules" for some, "rules are rules" for MC. At least MC got to play their match (and win anyway). Other teams just got disqualified.
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.03 02:42:00 - [49] [ 2007.09.02 18:54:28 ] GM B > MC STOP MOVING So, was an MC player moving?
Shar'Tuk TheHated	Posted - 2007.09.03 02:48:00 - [50] Todays word of the day is STOP! That will be all, continue.. DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale!

Kovid Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.03 02:53:00 - [51] Originally by: RogueWing Originally by: Masu'di there was no official decision to attack a camera man, this happened some minutes after we had been informed of the GM decision. Honestly, that is where your Alliance lost it's credibility. While I can certainly understand the confusion over the timing of the match, the destruction of the camera ship was a premeditated attack that was most certainly not a mistake on the part of the aggressor. Your alliance pilot made the decision to attack a neutral party just because he was upset about the decision. NBSI at work. ---------------------------------- An informal Star Fraction FAQ \| ----------------------------------
Masu'di Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.09.03 15:04:00 - [52] Edited by: Masu''di on 03/09/2007 15:04:27 Originally by: Dagam I think his point was that if "rules are rules" for some, "rules are rules" for MC. At least MC got to play their match (and win anyway). Other teams just got disqualified. Yep clearly it was a mistake allround from the GMs and from HI, it would have taken little effort to fix that ship, or even convo the team captains to ask what happened. For MC it was fairly obvious that they could see why someone had mistakenly started firing and I like to think that their team captain would not have objected to a restart. Es and Whizz is recruiting
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.09.03 15:32:00 - [53] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 03/09/2007 15:34:25 im with satan on this one. Only 1 pilot out of 20 pilots in the grid was confused. This 1 pilot did NOT ask on TS in the 30 seconds for orders. This 1 pilot did NOT read in local that the GM said "left" and "stop" instead of "to go" and "start". This 1 pilot did NOT wonder that no ECM burst was issued by a gm and that no gm was warping off. This 1 pilot did not wonder why noone else was shooting or calling targets on TS ? This 1 pilot, albeit unsure of the situation as he was and knowing the rules beforehand, thought that getting a first shot in was more important then checking back or wasting 1 second despite having 3 fastlock mods fitted ? After all that when u felt wrong done you killed a cameraship (something crucial for evetv and the community connection and completely unaffiliated with the managment of the event) purely to "show the devs" because you were mad and you whine here and exspect any sympathy ? Sorry you send in a few guys to represent your alliance and apparently you send 1-2 dumbasses along who cant read or think or worry. Your own damn fault. Pick better pilots next time. P.S. about all the other foul play cries. Last match everyone asked for harsh and strict action on grey field situations. This time the GMs enforce it to the letter. Seems like the mob is never happy. P.P.S. the gms just confirmed that all teams who violated the rules got a point penalty. So i guess the salty tears about MC moving will stop now.
jeffb GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.09.03 15:51:00 - [54] Originally by: Kcel Chim Edited by: Kcel Chim on 03/09/2007 15:34:25This 1 pilot, albeit unsure of the situation as he was and knowing the rules beforehand, thought that getting a first shot in was more important then checking back or wasting 1 second despite having 3 fastlock mods fitted ? With the huge amount of damps in the matches so far, its pretty fair to say that whoever gets locks/damps first has a huge advantage. When the people running the event aren't clear about what is going on, this is the kind of stuff that happens. Killing the camera ship is a non-issue, they can respawn it with little effort at all.
Kcel Chim Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2007.09.03 16:01:00 - [55] Originally by: jeffb Originally by: Kcel Chim Edited by: Kcel Chim on 03/09/2007 15:34:25This 1 pilot, albeit unsure of the situation as he was and knowing the rules beforehand, thought that getting a first shot in was more important then checking back or wasting 1 second despite having 3 fastlock mods fitted ? With the huge amount of damps in the matches so far, its pretty fair to say that whoever gets locks/damps first has a huge advantage. When the people running the event aren't clear about what is going on, this is the kind of stuff that happens. Killing the camera ship is a non-issue, they can respawn it with little effort at all. nice attempt on misquoting there. My point was that he didnt hesitate, didnt worry and didnt bother to get a clear signal from his team. But instead took it in his own hands (like noone else on the field). As far as spawning new stuff goes. In football (soccer for the americans) the coach gets thrown off the field if he leaves the "coaching area" multiple times. Surely half a meter wont make a difference either or ? Every game has its rules and the call of the referee is binding. CCP made a call and its moot to whine about it just because u feel that it was wrong. If you feel that the gms and devs involved arent impartial and corrupt to the bone quit the game. Afterall noone will convince you off the opposite and there is no point in throwing all those $ as someone who plays for the other team, right ? Attacking a cameraship is a nono nomatter which way you look at it and try to label it. Something which is btw even violating the eula rules. So they should be glad they just got DQed out of the tourney and not tempbanned right away.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.03 16:27:00 - [56] Well, I for my part, lost all reasons to watch this championship after the pathetic and completely PARTIAL decisions by the GMs involved. Impressive low quality championship. Teams with same error (excessive points, penalized in 2 different ways, ridiculous over penalizations for mistakes that could be simply solved before the match start and no penalizations on mistakes that happened during fight. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Yosarian Minmatar Hand Of The Tahiri	Posted - 2007.09.03 17:30:00 - [57] Originally by: Kcel Chim Edited by: Kcel Chim on 03/09/2007 15:34:25 im with satan on this one. Only 1 pilot out of 20 pilots in the grid was confused. This 1 pilot did NOT ask on TS in the 30 seconds for orders. This 1 pilot did NOT read in local that the GM said "left" and "stop" instead of "to go" and "start". This 1 pilot did NOT wonder that no ECM burst was issued by a gm and that no gm was warping off. This 1 pilot did not wonder why noone else was shooting or calling targets on TS ? This 1 pilot, albeit unsure of the situation as he was and knowing the rules beforehand, thought that getting a first shot in was more important then checking back or wasting 1 second despite having 3 fastlock mods fitted ? After all that when u felt wrong done you killed a cameraship (something crucial for evetv and the community connection and completely unaffiliated with the managment of the event) purely to "show the devs" because you were mad and you whine here and exspect any sympathy ? I absolutely agree
Yosarian Minmatar Hand Of The Tahiri	Posted - 2007.09.03 17:35:00 - [58] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Well, I for my part, lost all reasons to watch this championship after the pathetic and completely PARTIAL decisions by the GMs involved. Impressive low quality championship. Teams with same error (excessive points, penalized in 2 different ways, ridiculous over penalizations for mistakes that could be simply solved before the match start and no penalizations on mistakes that happened during fight. And I absolutely disagree. Given the large number of fights, the complexity of setting everything up, the fast pace that everything has been carried out out, and the nearly non-stop nature of the tournament over several days, I think the GMs (and EveTV) have done a great job. Just look at how many things can go wrong in regular PvP (in this game and any other).
jeffb GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.09.03 17:42:00 - [59] Originally by: Kcel Chim nice attempt on misquoting there. My point was that he didnt hesitate, didnt worry and didnt bother to get a clear signal from his team. But instead took it in his own hands (like noone else on the field). As far as spawning new stuff goes. In football (soccer for the americans) the coach gets thrown off the field if he leaves the "coaching area" multiple times. Surely half a meter wont make a difference either or ? Every game has its rules and the call of the referee is binding. CCP made a call and its moot to whine about it just because u feel that it was wrong. If you feel that the gms and devs involved arent impartial and corrupt to the bone quit the game. Afterall noone will convince you off the opposite and there is no point in throwing all those $ as someone who plays for the other team, right ? Attacking a cameraship is a nono nomatter which way you look at it and try to label it. Something which is btw even violating the eula rules. So they should be glad they just got DQed out of the tourney and not tempbanned right away. What the **** are you talking about? The guy is supposed to ignore the countdown in local from the GM running the event and triple check with his team, the other team and who knows else? If the GM wasn't ready to start a 10 second countdown, he shouldn't have started a 10 second countdown. How are you even trying to compare an internet spaceship camera to a real life soccer rule? Its hilarious that they blew it up, maybe you should go ride a bike or something. People can cry about it or they can just spawn another one and move along in probably less time than it took to pop. Violating the eula? Give me a break.
Masu'di Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.09.03 17:44:00 - [60] Today GM Nova announced we have been disqualified from the tournament. Yeh we do think it was heavy handed, and I think a lot of people can see that too, some people not, that's fine. But we not going to flog a dead horse over this. The decision is final, and is time to move on. Maybe see you next year, maybe not, we will see. Es and Whizz is recruiting



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