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Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.02 20:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Masu''di on 02/09/2007 20:46:38 This is an official statement from Hedonistic Imperative, to clarify the situation surrounding our match with Mercenary Coalition, and any misunderstandings there may be as a result. I believe the eve community has a right to know and see what our chatlogs showed.
Understandably some of our members are a little angry and dissapointed about the events regarding our fight against Mercenary Coalition, and have been asked not to vent this on the forums anymore. We would also like to apologies to EveTV, for destroying their luxury yacht, it was not them that made any referee decision, or were in communication with us about when the match should start. I hope you can understand the ammount of frustration and anger our pilots were under.
So here are the simple chatlogs from our gang and local, it's upto you to make your mind up. I have changed the GM names in order not to break any forum rules. If a moderator feels that this post is breaking any rules, please inform me so. Here is a chatlog from our gang while we were waiting in position at the battle arena 2 beacon. I should point out that our match was scheduled at 19:00 GMT.
[ 2007.09.02 18:54:47 ] GM A > REMEMBER: When you get to the arena, do not move around at all, you do so under threat of point penalties. [ 2007.09.02 18:56:25 ] Khamiz > your station has a cool name [ 2007.09.02 18:56:57 ] GM A > we brainstormed for 3 days to look for the perfect name [ 2007.09.02 18:57:08 ] GM A > then had some administrative meetings [ 2007.09.02 18:57:11 ] Khamiz > can i warp to it for a second after this please? [ 2007.09.02 18:57:19 ] Khamiz > just to have a look [ 2007.09.02 18:57:22 ] GM A > finally some went out for a smoke and settled on that [ 2007.09.02 18:57:29 ] DamienUPB > nice [ 2007.09.02 18:57:36 ] GM A > if your very very fast [ 2007.09.02 18:57:42 ] Khamiz > ty :) [ 2007.09.02 18:57:51 ] Ja'Anarria > what BS do i damP? [ 2007.09.02 18:59:32 ] GM A > good luck guys, kill em all [ 2007.09.02 18:59:50 ] Khamiz > do our best :) Now we look at the local chat.
[ 2007.09.02 18:48:06 ] EVE System > Channel changed to RU-97T Local Channel [ 2007.09.02 18:54:28 ] GM B > MC STOP MOVING [ 2007.09.02 18:55:42 ] GM C > 5 Minutes left [ 2007.09.02 18:57:21 ] GM C > 3 minutes left [ 2007.09.02 18:58:11 ] GM C > 2 minutes [ 2007.09.02 18:59:09 ] GM C > 1 minute
Going quickly back to gang chat, GM A sends us our good luck message.
[ 2007.09.02 18:59:32 ] GM A > good luck guys, kill em all
Meanwhile GM C starts a countdown in local. 21 seconds before our match is supposedly scheduled.
[ 2007.09.02 18:59:39 ] GM C > 30 seconds [ 2007.09.02 18:59:45 ] MC Pilot A > is that until match start for us or match end for them?
I thought he was taunting us at the time, implying we were going to die very swiftly. He was probably a little confused too. No GM answered his question.
[ 2007.09.02 19:00:01 ] GM C > 10 seconds [ 2007.09.02 19:00:03 ] GM C > 9 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:04 ] GM C > 8 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:05 ] GM C > 7 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:06 ] GM C > 6 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:07 ] GM C > 5 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:09 ] GM C > 4 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:09 ] GM C > 3 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:10 ] GM C > 2 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:12 ] GM C > 1 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:14 ] GM C > STOP!
I first thought it was a joke, or something had gone wrong. 9 out of 10 pilots held fire. One pilot sent two volleys of cruise missile before he realised to stop. So a little later the result appears in local,
[ 2007.09.02 19:08:22 ] GM C > Hedonistic Imperative forfeit the match for starting the fight early
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RogueWing
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.09.02 20:46:00 -
[2]
At what point was the decision made to attack the camera ship and why?
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Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.02 20:48:00 -
[3]
there was no official decision to attack a camera man, this happened some minutes after we had been informed of the GM decision.
Es and Whizz is recruiting |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.02 20:51:00 -
[4]
[ 2007.09.02 18:55:42 ] GM C > 5 Minutes left [ 2007.09.02 18:57:21 ] GM C > 3 minutes left
[ 2007.09.02 19:00:09 ] GM C > 3 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:10 ] GM C > 2 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:12 ] GM C > 1 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:14 ] GM C > STOP!
These here are your clues that he wasn't telling you to start fighting. I'm sorry you guys made a mistake or that there was a misunderstanding, but dear lord take it like adults.
You made a mistake in internet spaceships (and it was your pilot's mistake, not anyone elses), laugh it off and move on. ------
Originally by: CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts! |
Cabre
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Posted - 2007.09.02 20:52:00 -
[5]
Isn't it against the rules to post GM logs? BTW you guys are almost as bad as goons maybe you should join them
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Avalira
Caldari Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2007.09.02 20:52:00 -
[6]
Yeah, not a very clear situation. I would have liked for the match to go ahead with the maulus replaced. Unfortunatly it's a bit late now so I feel really sorry for you guys, we were all waiting for this match.
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RogueWing
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.09.02 20:55:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Masu'di there was no official decision to attack a camera man, this happened some minutes after we had been informed of the GM decision.
Honestly, that is where your Alliance lost it's credibility.
While I can certainly understand the confusion over the timing of the match, the destruction of the camera ship was a premeditated attack that was most certainly not a mistake on the part of the aggressor. Your alliance pilot made the decision to attack a neutral party just because he was upset about the decision.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.09.02 20:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Masu'di [ 2007.09.02 19:00:09 ] GM C > 3 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:10 ] GM C > 2 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:12 ] GM C > 1 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:14 ] GM C > STOP!
I first thought it was a joke, or something had gone wrong. 9 out of 10 pilots held fire. One pilot sent two volleys of cruise missile before he realised to stop. So a little later the result appears in local,
[ 2007.09.02 19:08:22 ] GM C > Hedonistic Imperative forfeit the match for starting the fight early
Actually 19 out of 20 pilots (assuming MC had 10 pilots but you get the point) withheld fire.
Sorry one of your pilots was so jacked up he felt a second or two to think about it would make a difference.
I can see how that is not overly clear and a mistake could be made but only ONE pilot actually did so apparently MOST people were clued in. Had both you and MC started at each other then that would be different. But it did not happen that way.
Stinks to be sure. I wanted to see the fight as I am sure many others did and of course all the work you all put into it makes it downright painful.
But the rule was broken and there was really no other decision the GMs could have come to.
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Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.02 20:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Masu''di on 02/09/2007 20:58:45
Originally by: Patch86 [ 2007.09.02 18:55:42 ] GM C > 5 Minutes left [ 2007.09.02 18:57:21 ] GM C > 3 minutes left
[ 2007.09.02 19:00:09 ] GM C > 3 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:10 ] GM C > 2 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:12 ] GM C > 1 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:14 ] GM C > STOP!
These here are your clues that he wasn't telling you to start fighting. I'm sorry you guys made a mistake or that there was a misunderstanding, but dear lord take it like adults.
You made a mistake in internet spaceships (and it was your pilot's mistake, not anyone elses), laugh it off and move on.
or 5 minutes left before our match started, it is very easy to look at it both ways. we were not aware that there was another match going on. perhaps we should have been informed there would be a short delay?
Es and Whizz is recruiting |
Cabre
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:01:00 -
[10]
Look I'll be nice. You posted GM logs, you shot the camerman in-game. Be glad your entire team aren't forum banned or in-game banned. The blame lies 100% on you and I think MC should've been given more points for having to sit through the ordeal.
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ForceM
Gallente POS Builder Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cabre Look I'll be nice. You posted GM logs, you shot the camerman in-game. Be glad your entire team aren't forum banned or in-game banned. The blame lies 100% on you and I think MC should've been given more points for having to sit through the ordeal.
There actually not GM logs .. there open convo's (gang and local)
So there actually aint no reason to even blank out the GM names. Even more .. the names have been shown in other topics already.
Besides that ... there is indeed a bit of confusion if the shooter was actually right (to make that mistake) or not.
BIG grey area ... might need a rematch.
-----
Quote:
Dun kill me eris
coming to fanfest by any chance? eris
*GULP*
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h But the rule was broken and there was really no other decision the GMs could have come to.
I think this deserves expanding on too since I have seen many posts where people think the fight should have been allowed to proceed.
First off I doubt any of us has a clue how easy it is for the Devs to spawn a ship. Maybe it is a simple press of a button...maybe it takes something more. I have no idea. But more than the ship are all its fittings. So not only do they need to spawn a ship but they would need to know, for certain, what all the mods were on that ship and spawn those along with the ship. They have a schedule to keep and I am betting doing all that is not a matter of a snap of Dev magic and it all just happens.
Second, assume the GMs did say, "Eh...honest mistake. We'll respawn the ship." They have now set a precedent. Move forward to (for example) a BOB v. GOON match. While waiting for the match to start one or the other zaps an opponent's ship and goes, "Oops". Because the precedent was set the Devs would have to sort it out. Can you imagine the **** storm that would ensue from that? It could quite easily throw the tournament into chaos.
In the end the forfeit was the ONLY appropriate response. Stinks to be sure but I cannot see how anyone could see it otherwise.
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Barbarellas Daughter
Lonely Barbarella
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:18:00 -
[13]
they should repeat the fight, the situation was apparently not very clear.
then, ban them from the tourney for shooting the camera man ____________________________________________
Originally by: Marduk Felzhen You have an amazing cleavage, except you have no arms :(
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William DeMeo
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:18:00 -
[14]
109 Yarr |
Owi
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:26:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter they should repeat the fight, the situation was apparently not very clear.
then, ban them from the tourney for shooting the camera man
punish a whole alliance for 1 guy that cant stand hisself ? comeone ...
My EvE-Files.com folder !
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:32:00 -
[16]
Originally by: RogueWing
Originally by: Masu'di there was no official decision to attack a camera man, this happened some minutes after we had been informed of the GM decision.
Honestly, that is where your Alliance lost it's credibility.
While I can certainly understand the confusion over the timing of the match, the destruction of the camera ship was a premeditated attack that was most certainly not a mistake on the part of the aggressor. Your alliance pilot made the decision to attack a neutral party just because he was upset about the decision.
Come off it, you guys would waste GMs could you any given day of the week.
Also Known As |
Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:35:00 -
[17]
Sounds pretty lame. Congrats on the Yacht kill.
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Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:36:00 -
[18]
this is unfortunate situation.
I am sure the GMs dont take decisions lightly.
Hedonistic Imperative are not the only people to have lost out from this, they are however the only ones at fault.
MC did get to have a fight they had trained for, and no doubt would have won.
The community did not get to see the fight and instead have to listen to more forum whining. -
Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345 |
Ogul
Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:38:00 -
[19]
Really a hard one... Who to blame for miscommunication, the speaker or the listener?
Sounds more and more like someone is lacking the proper ingame tools for running a tournament.
--- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec. |
Arbius V'Talik
No Trademark The OSS
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Masu'di Edited by: Masu''di on 02/09/2007 20:46:38 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:07 ] GM C > 5 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:09 ] GM C > 4 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:09 ] GM C > 3 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:10 ] GM C > 2 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:12 ] GM C > 1 [ 2007.09.02 19:00:14 ] GM C > STOP!
This was the best clue. I cant ever recall starting anything with the command 'STOP!'.
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Sarchez
Minmatar Infinitus Odium The Church.
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:42:00 -
[21]
Easy to see how it could be misunderstood and a mistake like that could happen. (Maybe have another system as "prep-system" until the former fight has finished ?)
Either way, grats on the yacht kill - that's so much sweeter than a tourney fight anyway
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TigerWoman
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:47:00 -
[22]
i think the decisions are a little harsch.
goons messed up by bringing to much points: -> solution: kick one RANDOM ship out you guys shot a guy in the heat of the incoming battle with confusing commands and we know that a volley of missiles shot before you got dampened can decide a match ( esp. with all this damp and missile stuff goin on on the tournament - 5 maulus anyone? ) -> solution: respawn that ship by a gm/ or ban a random ship of equal or more points from your team.
that would penalice you but wont kick you out directly.
and btw: jamesw is the best commentator around there.
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Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:51:00 -
[23]
solution - obey the rules. -
Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345 |
DHB WildCat
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:54:00 -
[24]
Sorry about the match, hed. Was looking forward to see it. This entire tournament has been sloppy from the get go. The GM's seemed to be confused at times, and having 4 teams in the two arenas at the same time is just asking for trouble. 4 teams , 2 fights, 1 local = not good. Anyways I hope you fare well in your upcoming matches. Good luck to you
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Local Her0
Minmatar La Mancha Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.02 21:59:00 -
[25]
pretty much every partie made a mistake there by the looks of it
Hedonistic Imperative -> instapop a ship on countdown zero (u should get a medal for that actualy also nice yacht kill which should have been unlockable? allight!)
MC -> move after beeing told not to move
Camaraman -> didn't tell gm he relogged
GMs -> don't ECM Burst as usual? not informating parties that the fight is delayed
at the end Hedonistic Imperative gets a penalty
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SATAN
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2007.09.02 22:02:00 -
[26]
Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt that everyone was confused about the countdown, you are still over looking one crucial mistake in your reasoning.
The GM never said "GO", which means your pilot was trying to anticipate the word go and you should receive a DQ.
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DonCare
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Posted - 2007.09.02 22:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SATAN Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt that everyone was confused about the countdown, you are still over looking one crucial mistake in your reasoning.
The GM never said "GO", which means your pilot was trying to anticipate the word go and you should receive a DQ.
This is true although how many people would fall for the good ole 3 2 1 1/2 0 trick, I'm guessing quite a few. Also with sensor boosted sb's and everything already clicked to be applied to first lock as soon as you click on overview it is instant lock and fire. Don't know what else to say.
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Nicholas Barker
MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2007.09.02 22:34:00 -
[28]
during both our fights i only just waited for the word go, on our second fight there was actually what seemed to me (tripping out from nerves?) a longer gap between the 1 and the go and i nearly just went before the gun in fear of somebody else doing it. I think nerves got the better of somebody and instead of the gms doing something to prevent it they just sat by while typing a few lines of text and waited for it to unravel infront of them. After all the delays i think they could have helped them reset it all back up. Maybe this was them saying sorry for blowing up mcs raven? ---
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.09.02 22:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Local Her0 Edited by: Local Her0 on 02/09/2007 22:04:41
pretty much every partie made a mistake there by the looks of it
Hedonistic Imperative -> instapop a ship on countdown zero (u should get a medal for that actualy also nice yacht kill which should have been unlockable? allright!)
Hardly a medal. Just standard tactics...trying to get the shot off before the Maulus damped him into oblivion
Quote: MC -> move after beeing told not to move
Got this one backwards. I cannot speak for the GMs but apparently MC was moving and was told to stop and they did. The GMs have said this has happened many times with many teams. Apparently as long as those moving stop when told to stop the GMs let it slide. Whether you agree with that policy or not it seems they have applied it the same to numerous teams and not just MC.
Quote: Camaraman -> didn't tell GMs he relogged
Maybe but the camerman attack was after the forfeit anyway and near as I can tell HI has not been penalized in any way for that. Besides...who knew the ship would be targettable when the camerman DQed? Doubtless he just figured not to bother anyone and go for a quick relog. Either way it changes nothing near as I can tell besides opening HI to endless flames on the forums.
Quote: GMs -> don't ECM Burst as usual? not informing parties that the fight is delayed
They do ECM Burst at the start. This is another clue to the players that the fight had not actually started yet. As for being delayed a few minutes yeah...would have been good had they done that. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that...
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Owi
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.02 22:52:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Owi on 02/09/2007 22:52:17
Originally by: EVIL SYNNs On your marks..
Get Set...
STOP
better wouldt be swing yellow flags or bring out the saftycar, not pulling out the black one
My EvE-Files.com folder !
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Kayleigh Lothian
Minmatar KIA Corp KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.02 23:00:00 -
[31]
Tbh there should not even have been a chance of this mistake to be made. Did someone answer the MC question in MC gang chat? If not, how could such an important question have gone unanswered?
I can understand that you feel cheated out of what could have been a nice fight, but that's what happens when schedules get messed up/delayed and there are little/non information. ----------------------
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The Socialworker
Minmatar The Socialworkers
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Posted - 2007.09.02 23:09:00 -
[32]
just what i was going to post evil synns. Down on your blocks - marks... set ... -stop- you loose , and then you spit in the dirrection of the referee, understandable in my book. The Oxford v Cambridge boat race has run 152 times. Referees mess up sometimes, but they let the best team win out in the end after restarts. (I have no alliance affilitation here)
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Eamz
Endgame.
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Posted - 2007.09.03 00:06:00 -
[33]
I think there should be a rematch. I could have easily made the mistake of firing as the pressure at the beginning would be great. Getting off a volley before being damped could be the difference between winning and losing and was most likely the reason the pilot had such itchy fingers. No GM reply and confirmed confusion on both sides, definitely should be a rematch.
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Vando
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.09.03 00:17:00 -
[34]
I personally would have begun on seeing the line of text scroll after '1' without initially reading what that line said, assuming it to be 'GO'. GMs really should have reset the gamestate and gone again, but unfortunately having set a precedent with the Goonswarm decision yesterday they have no room to let things slide without provoking uproar.
Essentially, they got that first decision wrong. Now, they have to make more wrong decisions to ensure that first wrong decision remains legitimate. I recommend that people try their hardest not to mess up AT ALL because you will likely be punished in line with this.
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Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.03 00:25:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Masu''di on 03/09/2007 00:27:17
Originally by: Eamz I think there should be a rematch. I could have easily made the mistake of firing as the pressure at the beginning would be great. Getting off a volley before being damped could be the difference between winning and losing and was most likely the reason the pilot had such itchy fingers. No GM reply and confirmed confusion on both sides, definitely should be a rematch.
I would love to have a rematch, but unfortunately I don't think we will get one. CCP I doubt would find a slot for us, and I don't think Mercenary Coalition would want one either. They were very quick in local to call us disqualified. A shame all round, I think it would have been a great fight.
MC had 3 Ravens and 6 Maulus, we had a Phoon, Apoc, 7 Stealth Bombers and a Maulus. We were roughly about 60kms apart, which was perfect for us. With a stealth bomber on each Maulus and with their better locking times, it would have been a close fight. The FoFs from the Ravens would have been our main worry, because the Mauluses would likely have been cleared within about 15 seconds.
Es and Whizz is recruiting |
Kirenna Zhon
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Posted - 2007.09.03 00:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h But the rule was broken and there was really no other decision the GMs could have come to.
I think this deserves expanding on too since I have seen many posts where people think the fight should have been allowed to proceed.
First off I doubt any of us has a clue how easy it is for the Devs to spawn a ship. Maybe it is a simple press of a button...maybe it takes something more. I have no idea. But more than the ship are all its fittings. So not only do they need to spawn a ship but they would need to know, for certain, what all the mods were on that ship and spawn those along with the ship. They have a schedule to keep and I am betting doing all that is not a matter of a snap of Dev magic and it all just happens.
Second, assume the GMs did say, "Eh...honest mistake. We'll respawn the ship." They have now set a precedent. Move forward to (for example) a BOB v. GOON match. While waiting for the match to start one or the other zaps an opponent's ship and goes, "Oops". Because the precedent was set the Devs would have to sort it out. Can you imagine the **** storm that would ensue from that? It could quite easily throw the tournament into chaos.
In the end the forfeit was the ONLY appropriate response. Stinks to be sure but I cannot see how anyone could see it otherwise.
In this example, it's really easy to do. They can "salvage" the destroyed ship, which returns the ship to the nearby station with all destroyed modules fitted already, and a gangmember brings you the non-destroyed fittings. 5-10 minutes and you're back in the blocks to try again.
I wasn't there, I couldn't watch it, but from the logs it seems there was too little organization and communication going on. It wasn't until I read the other responses here that I realized that there was another match going on in local. That should never happen, since there is too much chance of crossed signals going on like we witnessed here.
As for precedents, it's best that a bad one never get set in the first place. I'd like to find out what happened in the BoB vs. Goon match so I can follow what everyone else has been saying on the matter.
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Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.03 00:39:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kirenna Zhon
First off I doubt any of us has a clue how easy it is for the Devs to spawn a ship. Maybe it is a simple press of a button...maybe it takes something more. I have no idea. But more than the ship are all its fittings.
After the decision had been made, we were asked to warp off, it did look like just before this the GMs fixed the Maulus that had been popped. I definitely remember the pod and wreck dissapearing about the same time. I'm not 100% sure though, and only a GM could answer if that was the case.
In local a GM also stated a little earlier, "do not touch the wreck". I assume was referring to our arena rather than to someone in the other arena.
I'd be a lot happier if the GMs made a statement and rethink how they can co-ordinate the two matches a bit better. Perhaps stating which arena exactly when they are talking in local. We had no idea that there was another fight going on at the time, and we were due to fight exactly when the count down started.
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Andor Traxel
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2007.09.03 01:25:00 -
[38]
I do not agree with this ruling.
A maulus was allowed to warp from the arena during our fight with MC, then warp back in and resume fighting.
According to Rule #7 any ship that leaves the arena will be destroyed. The maulus pilot was in clear violation of the rules. Surely he must have known that if he dropped and warped back in he should not have re-engaged his sensor damps or weapons.
If Hedonistic Imperative must forfeit then so must MC to us.
There appears to be a double standard.
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Excesse
Infinitus Odium The Church.
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Posted - 2007.09.03 01:29:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Excesse on 03/09/2007 01:29:50 Generally poor communication on the part of the GMs if you ask me - I probably would have been ready to pull the trigger at the end of that count-down as well. It's critical that when giving commands, you avoid any ambiguity. Having two groups in one place and giving them both co-inciding countdowns is bound to end up like this... Either keep people apart (seperate systems for seperate matches), have one GM controlling each fight (so that you know exactly who to listen to) or give each GM instructions to address groups with precursors or something else that ensures everyone knows who every communication is for.
I'd like to see the two sides rematched - especially as it was only a maulus that popped; not very hard to replace, really.
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Paniq
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.03 01:31:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Andor Traxel I do not agree with this ruling.
A maulus was allowed to warp from the arena during our fight with MC, then warp back in and resume fighting.
According to Rule #7 any ship that leaves the arena will be destroyed. The maulus pilot was in clear violation of the rules. Surely he must have known that if he dropped and warped back in he should not have re-engaged his sensor damps or weapons.
If Hedonistic Imperative must forfeit then so must MC to us.
There appears to be a double standard.
You are forgetting that the GM's removed one of our Ravens instead of the Maulus, leaving us with only 2/3 of our heavy hitters.
Since that was a mistake, and an admitted one on their behalf, they decided not to remove the Maulus as well. They did remove the other Maulus that disconnected and re-logged.
You did not get the short stick in that drawing, we did.
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Andor Traxel
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2007.09.03 01:41:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Andor Traxel on 03/09/2007 01:42:08
Originally by: Paniq
Originally by: Andor Traxel I do not agree with this ruling.
A maulus was allowed to warp from the arena during our fight with MC, then warp back in and resume fighting.
According to Rule #7 any ship that leaves the arena will be destroyed. The maulus pilot was in clear violation of the rules. Surely he must have known that if he dropped and warped back in he should not have re-engaged his sensor damps or weapons.
If Hedonistic Imperative must forfeit then so must MC to us.
There appears to be a double standard.
You are forgetting that the GM's removed one of our Ravens instead of the Maulus, leaving us with only 2/3 of our heavy hitters.
Since that was a mistake, and an admitted one on their behalf, they decided not to remove the Maulus as well. They did remove the other Maulus that disconnected and re-logged.
You did not get the short stick in that drawing, we did.
I would have gladly traded the maulus for the raven under those circumstances at that time. It kept our 1200 dps abbadon from melting your ravens and my bouncer 2's from destroying your remaining maulus. Musician dropped from the battle arena when the teams where set, according to rule #7 his ship should have been destroyed anyway.
This tournament is supposed to be fun. Where is the fun in arbitrary rulings like these.
Like I said there "appears" to be be a double standard.
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Sivona
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.03 01:47:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Andor Traxel Edited by: Andor Traxel on 03/09/2007 01:42:08
Originally by: Paniq
Originally by: Andor Traxel I do not agree with this ruling.
A maulus was allowed to warp from the arena during our fight with MC, then warp back in and resume fighting.
According to Rule #7 any ship that leaves the arena will be destroyed. The maulus pilot was in clear violation of the rules. Surely he must have known that if he dropped and warped back in he should not have re-engaged his sensor damps or weapons.
If Hedonistic Imperative must forfeit then so must MC to us.
There appears to be a double standard.
You are forgetting that the GM's removed one of our Ravens instead of the Maulus, leaving us with only 2/3 of our heavy hitters.
Since that was a mistake, and an admitted one on their behalf, they decided not to remove the Maulus as well. They did remove the other Maulus that disconnected and re-logged.
You did not get the short stick in that drawing, we did.
I would have gladly traded the maulus for the raven under those circumstances at that time. It kept our 1200 dps abbadon from melting your ravens and my bouncer 2's from destroying your remaining maulus. Musician dropped from the battle arena when the teams where set, according to rule #7 his ship should have been destroyed anyway.
This tournament is supposed to be fun. Where is the fun in arbitrary rulings like these.
Like I said there "appears" to be be a double standard.
Sorry to clarrify your arguing that the gm removing a raven instead of removing a maulus was too our advantage?
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Andor Traxel
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2007.09.03 01:50:00 -
[43]
Yes.
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Sivona
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.03 01:52:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Andor Traxel Yes.
Without going into the issues of a 3 point ship being more important than a 27 point ship and all the additional power therein dont you feel your view is a bit presumptious seeing as you had no idea what the removed raven had fitted or could do to your team?
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Andor Traxel
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2007.09.03 01:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sivona
Originally by: Andor Traxel Yes.
Without going into the issues of a 3 point ship being more important than a 27 point ship and all the additional power therein dont you feel your view is a bit presumptious seeing as you had no idea what the removed raven had fitted or could do to your team?
You forget we had 6 ships left in the arena at the time, four of which where fully capable of reducing your ravens lock rtange to less then 10km.
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Andor Traxel
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2007.09.03 02:11:00 -
[46]
The point is your maulus pilot was in violation of rule #7, as was magician when he left the arena after our teams were set, they both should have been healed zero under the rules. It was unlucky for you that the Raven dropped, but the rules should have been enforced then, as they where in the Hedonistic Imperative vrs MC match.
We can argue till the stars go out who it affected more, but clearly it affected the outcome of the match.
I will say no more.
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Sivona
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.03 02:11:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Andor Traxel
Originally by: Sivona
Originally by: Andor Traxel Yes.
Without going into the issues of a 3 point ship being more important than a 27 point ship and all the additional power therein dont you feel your view is a bit presumptious seeing as you had no idea what the removed raven had fitted or could do to your team?
You forget we had 6 ships left in the arena at the time, four of which where fully capable of reducing your ravens lock rtange to less then 10km.
No i dont forget, i do know how much losing that raven hurt us though and I do know we considered that maulus completely expendable. We could argue over red herrings all day however this is a thread about hedonistic imperatives statement not nebula's rasa sense of injustice that we lost a 27 point ship instead of a 3 point ship and so therefore going somewhat offtopic. The fact is that this result as of now stands, in general it seems most people view a raven as greater than a maulus and you honestly cannot say with any certainty especially in view of your lack of knowledge of how we were setup how this incident affected the match, anything else is pure speculation and really I dont see how its in any way productive unless of course you just wish to vent your frustrations at losing?
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Dagam
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.03 02:26:00 -
[48]
I think his point was that if "rules are rules" for some, "rules are rules" for MC. At least MC got to play their match (and win anyway). Other teams just got disqualified.
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Dramaticus
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.03 02:42:00 -
[49]
[ 2007.09.02 18:54:28 ] GM B > MC STOP MOVING
So, was an MC player moving?
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Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2007.09.03 02:48:00 -
[50]
Todays word of the day is STOP! That will be all, continue..
DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! |
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Kovid
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.09.03 02:53:00 -
[51]
Originally by: RogueWing
Originally by: Masu'di there was no official decision to attack a camera man, this happened some minutes after we had been informed of the GM decision.
Honestly, that is where your Alliance lost it's credibility.
While I can certainly understand the confusion over the timing of the match, the destruction of the camera ship was a premeditated attack that was most certainly not a mistake on the part of the aggressor. Your alliance pilot made the decision to attack a neutral party just because he was upset about the decision.
NBSI at work. ---------------------------------- An informal Star Fraction FAQ | ---------------------------------- |
Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:04:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Masu''di on 03/09/2007 15:04:27
Originally by: Dagam I think his point was that if "rules are rules" for some, "rules are rules" for MC. At least MC got to play their match (and win anyway). Other teams just got disqualified.
Yep clearly it was a mistake allround from the GMs and from HI, it would have taken little effort to fix that ship, or even convo the team captains to ask what happened. For MC it was fairly obvious that they could see why someone had mistakenly started firing and I like to think that their team captain would not have objected to a restart.
Es and Whizz is recruiting |
Kcel Chim
Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:32:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 03/09/2007 15:34:25 im with satan on this one.
Only 1 pilot out of 20 pilots in the grid was confused. This 1 pilot did NOT ask on TS in the 30 seconds for orders. This 1 pilot did NOT read in local that the GM said "left" and "stop" instead of "to go" and "start". This 1 pilot did NOT wonder that no ECM burst was issued by a gm and that no gm was warping off. This 1 pilot did not wonder why noone else was shooting or calling targets on TS ? This 1 pilot, albeit unsure of the situation as he was and knowing the rules beforehand, thought that getting a first shot in was more important then checking back or wasting 1 second despite having 3 fastlock mods fitted ?
After all that when u felt wrong done you killed a cameraship (something crucial for evetv and the community connection and completely unaffiliated with the managment of the event) purely to "show the devs" because you were mad and you whine here and exspect any sympathy ?
Sorry you send in a few guys to represent your alliance and apparently you send 1-2 dumbasses along who cant read or think or worry. Your own damn fault. Pick better pilots next time.
P.S. about all the other foul play cries. Last match everyone asked for harsh and strict action on grey field situations. This time the GMs enforce it to the letter. Seems like the mob is never happy. P.P.S. the gms just confirmed that all teams who violated the rules got a point penalty. So i guess the salty tears about MC moving will stop now.
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jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:51:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Kcel Chim Edited by: Kcel Chim on 03/09/2007 15:34:25This 1 pilot, albeit unsure of the situation as he was and knowing the rules beforehand, thought that getting a first shot in was more important then checking back or wasting 1 second despite having 3 fastlock mods fitted ?
With the huge amount of damps in the matches so far, its pretty fair to say that whoever gets locks/damps first has a huge advantage. When the people running the event aren't clear about what is going on, this is the kind of stuff that happens.
Killing the camera ship is a non-issue, they can respawn it with little effort at all.
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Kcel Chim
Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: jeffb
Originally by: Kcel Chim Edited by: Kcel Chim on 03/09/2007 15:34:25This 1 pilot, albeit unsure of the situation as he was and knowing the rules beforehand, thought that getting a first shot in was more important then checking back or wasting 1 second despite having 3 fastlock mods fitted ?
With the huge amount of damps in the matches so far, its pretty fair to say that whoever gets locks/damps first has a huge advantage. When the people running the event aren't clear about what is going on, this is the kind of stuff that happens.
Killing the camera ship is a non-issue, they can respawn it with little effort at all.
nice attempt on misquoting there. My point was that he didnt hesitate, didnt worry and didnt bother to get a clear signal from his team. But instead took it in his own hands (like noone else on the field).
As far as spawning new stuff goes. In football (soccer for the americans) the coach gets thrown off the field if he leaves the "coaching area" multiple times. Surely half a meter wont make a difference either or ? Every game has its rules and the call of the referee is binding. CCP made a call and its moot to whine about it just because u feel that it was wrong. If you feel that the gms and devs involved arent impartial and corrupt to the bone quit the game. Afterall noone will convince you off the opposite and there is no point in throwing all those $ as someone who plays for the other team, right ?
Attacking a cameraship is a nono nomatter which way you look at it and try to label it. Something which is btw even violating the eula rules. So they should be glad they just got DQed out of the tourney and not tempbanned right away.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:27:00 -
[56]
Well, I for my part, lost all reasons to watch this championship after the pathetic and completely PARTIAL decisions by the GMs involved. Impressive low quality championship. Teams with same error (excessive points, penalized in 2 different ways, ridiculous over penalizations for mistakes that could be simply solved before the match start and no penalizations on mistakes that happened during fight.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Yosarian
Minmatar Hand Of The Tahiri
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Posted - 2007.09.03 17:30:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Kcel Chim Edited by: Kcel Chim on 03/09/2007 15:34:25 im with satan on this one.
Only 1 pilot out of 20 pilots in the grid was confused. This 1 pilot did NOT ask on TS in the 30 seconds for orders. This 1 pilot did NOT read in local that the GM said "left" and "stop" instead of "to go" and "start". This 1 pilot did NOT wonder that no ECM burst was issued by a gm and that no gm was warping off. This 1 pilot did not wonder why noone else was shooting or calling targets on TS ? This 1 pilot, albeit unsure of the situation as he was and knowing the rules beforehand, thought that getting a first shot in was more important then checking back or wasting 1 second despite having 3 fastlock mods fitted ?
After all that when u felt wrong done you killed a cameraship (something crucial for evetv and the community connection and completely unaffiliated with the managment of the event) purely to "show the devs" because you were mad and you whine here and exspect any sympathy ?
I absolutely agree
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Yosarian
Minmatar Hand Of The Tahiri
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Posted - 2007.09.03 17:35:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Well, I for my part, lost all reasons to watch this championship after the pathetic and completely PARTIAL decisions by the GMs involved. Impressive low quality championship. Teams with same error (excessive points, penalized in 2 different ways, ridiculous over penalizations for mistakes that could be simply solved before the match start and no penalizations on mistakes that happened during fight.
And I absolutely disagree.
Given the large number of fights, the complexity of setting everything up, the fast pace that everything has been carried out out, and the nearly non-stop nature of the tournament over several days, I think the GMs (and EveTV) have done a great job.
Just look at how many things can go wrong in regular PvP (in this game and any other).
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jeffb
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.09.03 17:42:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kcel Chim nice attempt on misquoting there. My point was that he didnt hesitate, didnt worry and didnt bother to get a clear signal from his team. But instead took it in his own hands (like noone else on the field).
As far as spawning new stuff goes. In football (soccer for the americans) the coach gets thrown off the field if he leaves the "coaching area" multiple times. Surely half a meter wont make a difference either or ? Every game has its rules and the call of the referee is binding. CCP made a call and its moot to whine about it just because u feel that it was wrong. If you feel that the gms and devs involved arent impartial and corrupt to the bone quit the game. Afterall noone will convince you off the opposite and there is no point in throwing all those $ as someone who plays for the other team, right ?
Attacking a cameraship is a nono nomatter which way you look at it and try to label it. Something which is btw even violating the eula rules. So they should be glad they just got DQed out of the tourney and not tempbanned right away.
What the **** are you talking about? The guy is supposed to ignore the countdown in local from the GM running the event and triple check with his team, the other team and who knows else? If the GM wasn't ready to start a 10 second countdown, he shouldn't have started a 10 second countdown.
How are you even trying to compare an internet spaceship camera to a real life soccer rule? Its hilarious that they blew it up, maybe you should go ride a bike or something. People can cry about it or they can just spawn another one and move along in probably less time than it took to pop.
Violating the eula? Give me a break.
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Masu'di
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.03 17:44:00 -
[60]
Today GM Nova announced we have been disqualified from the tournament. Yeh we do think it was heavy handed, and I think a lot of people can see that too, some people not, that's fine. But we not going to flog a dead horse over this. The decision is final, and is time to move on. Maybe see you next year, maybe not, we will see.
Es and Whizz is recruiting |
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.03 17:45:00 -
[61]
Originally by: The Socialworker just what i was going to post evil synns. Down on your blocks - marks... set ... -stop- you loose , and then you spit in the dirrection of the referee, understandable in my book. The Oxford v Cambridge boat race has run 152 times. Referees mess up sometimes, but they let the best team win out in the end after restarts. (I have no alliance affilitation here)
There are false starts in athletics all the time. Usually, in most events, the race will be restarted. If the offender re-offends and commits another false start, they are disqualified. If the offender kicks the referee in the face, he is likely to be arrested and banned from the sport indefinitely.
In this Tourney, it appears that moving before the signal results in a small points penalty. Destroying enemy ships before the signal (which is what HI did) results in a match forfeit (according the GM Nova). Ganking Eve TV staff, being uncooperative, and generally causing hassle for the GMs seems to result in a complete disqualification.
That sounds most fair to me. The official line is that if they'd just gone "Oh dear, that wasn't the start? Sorry..." they would have just forfeited the match and been able to continue to play the rest of their group (and in theory they could still have scored enough points to go through to the next round).
It was them who made the initial mistake, and them that made matters worse. They've got no-one to blame but themselves. ------
Originally by: CCP Prism X There's no such thing as playing too much EvE! You all obviously need more accounts! |
Kcel Chim
Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2007.09.03 18:05:00 -
[62]
Originally by: jeffb
What the **** are you talking about? The guy is supposed to ignore the countdown in local from the GM running the event and triple check with his team, the other team and who knows else? If the GM wasn't ready to start a 10 second countdown, he shouldn't have started a 10 second countdown.
Noone told him it was their countdown, infact it wasnt there countdown either. So 1 guy only assumed that it was his countdown. The Countdown was for the stale game in another arena. Read up before you make assumptions and throw around wild scenarios. The only thing a gm could have prevented was that he could have said in local "watch out arena x vs y this is your countdown".
Quote:
How are you even trying to compare an internet spaceship camera to a real life soccer rule? Its hilarious that they blew it up, maybe you should go ride a bike or something. People can cry about it or they can just spawn another one and move along in probably less time than it took to pop.
Violating the eula? Give me a break.
Well why cant i compare a poker game to internet spaceships, or a soccer game ? Both are hobbies and freetime games for many ppl. Both take alot to setup same as all the "e-sport" events. Ever seen how popular they are in asia ? Rules are there in both "games" and if broken a referee will make a judgement call. By joining the tourney you accept that beforehand.
As for violating the eula, maybe you should read up on the stuff you clicked ok ok ok on. Harassing / griefing volunteers, other players and gm staff during an event can get you tempbanned and excluded from events pretty quick. Especially if its a high profile and public thing like evetv i would guess.
As far as the other guy is concerned who rambles on about different punishments for different alliances. How did Interrepid and Goons get different punishment. Both got 0 points out of it. Interepid even got -50 because it went unnoticed (they lost anyways). However it wont change anything in their groupranking. So the only case u might debate here is the fight of MC vs Nebula Rasa, where MC got one of their ravens killed because the GM mixed up the lock on the returning maulus. Trading a frig for a bs hardly makes it unfair to anyone but MC who won in the end. But like in sports sometimes the wrong guy gets the yellow or red card. Hindsight is always 20/20.
So far the ruling was pretty easy to understand. More points = DQ, Moving ship = -10 per ship, Shooting before the go = DQ, killing an evetv ship = ban from tourney. Disconnecting = heal 0 If they stick to those rules till the end it looks like a good game and pretty easy to understand too !
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Owi
Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.03 19:22:00 -
[63]
Just one more point to think about ..
Why the cammera was targeteable ? What if someone who fights in this tournament have autotarget on and gets cammeratargeted by it and in the fire of the fight he kills the camera by misstake ?
TO much GM faults and few alliances had to pay with dq or penalties ...
im out here.. GL every left Alliances in this Tourney !
My EvE-Files.com folder !
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jamesw
Omniscient Order Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.03 20:24:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Owi Just one more point to think about ..
Why the cammera was targeteable ? What if someone who fights in this tournament have autotarget on and gets cammeratargeted by it and in the fire of the fight he kills the camera by misstake ?
TO much GM faults and few alliances had to pay with dq or penalties ...
im out here.. GL every left Alliances in this Tourney !
Camera was targetable because we had a bluescreen and a race to catch back up. We forgot to tell the GM's to use their voodoo magic on us and make us untargetable again. That part was most certainly not the GM's fault.
--
Latest Vid: Domination! |
Shar'Tuk TheHated
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Posted - 2007.09.03 23:26:00 -
[65]
Originally by: jeffb
Originally by: Kcel Chim Edited by: Kcel Chim on 03/09/2007 15:34:25This 1 pilot, albeit unsure of the situation as he was and knowing the rules beforehand, thought that getting a first shot in was more important then checking back or wasting 1 second despite having 3 fastlock mods fitted ?
With the huge amount of damps in the matches so far, its pretty fair to say that whoever gets locks/damps first has a huge advantage. When the people running the event aren't clear about what is going on, this is the kind of stuff that happens.
Killing the camera ship is a non-issue, they can respawn it with little effort at all.
Cant get much clearer then STOP in local. Normally things start with GO so ya thats a real hard one to get mixed up on. Id imagine FC calling the targets would also be a clear indication to start locking. If it was nerves or a lack of discipline it doesnt much matter as rules are rules. Blowing up the camara guy was a smack in the face and totally uncalled for.
DRINK RUM It fights scurvy & boosts morale! |
Stoffer Ninjapirate
Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.03 23:33:00 -
[66]
RogueWing your sig is hilarious.
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RogueWing
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.09.04 00:29:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Stoffer Ninjapirate RogueWing your sig is hilarious.
Thank you.
But I didn't make it. A pilot from You What is the creator....I just stole it from him. :)
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Kirenna Zhon
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Posted - 2007.09.04 01:57:00 -
[68]
I don't think many people are arguing that killing the cameraman was called for. I personally don't think it is either. But the fact remains that in a matter of seconds he could have another ship, be in it, and immune to locking again. And what if it happened to be a case of them locking one of HI's pilots, who was already upset, and now had autolock going? Not saying it was right, but I can see how someone with less aggression control would see this as an opportunity to lash out; it's called a crime of opportunity. Not right, but can be reasoned as to why.
And too many people are reasoning the false start too much in 20/20 view. Imagine you're in the pilot's chair, and the GM says "5 minutes left" 5 minutes before your match is starting. Then imagine that you have no idea that there's another match going on in the system. Then imagine that someone actually queries the GMs as to the meaning of the statement, even though you don't know what they're talking about yet. In fact, when I first read the transcript, it appeared to be nothing but smack. "is that until match start for us or match end for them?" can easily be seen as "This is going to be so easy that we'll win when the countdown ends." Take a step back and read it again with that in mind.
Finally, imagine you're in that seat again, and the countdown is down to 5 seconds. 4 seconds. 3 seconds. 2 seconds. 1 second. You prep your modules now and hover your mouse over "lock". At 0 seconds left, you've anticipated the engage command, whether it be "GO" or "FIRE" or "BEGIN", and your finger instinctively clicks it. There's no going back now. But at click 0, there's no command yet. You begin to sweat. At click -1, your lock is complete, your cruise missiles are en route to your target; and your stomach sinks as you read "STOP!" The damage is done, and now the GMs are breathing down on you.
The tension is building as the ruling is being decided. Now imagine you've just been told that instead of restarting the match with a fresh ship for the victim and/or losing points, your team has been removed from the match. Now imagine someone locks you, and your ship autolocks back. You're upset, and rightfully so, but you're not thinking straight because of this ordeal that just happened to you; You fire. There's shock among all who are watching; time stands still. In a matter of a few volleys, the cameraman is in a pod, and the GMs are swiftly passing further judgement that you're not fit for tournament play.
Now imagine you're reading the forums and there's people passing more hastily passed judgement on you without considering the situation. You're even more upset; rightfully so. HI's been given the short end of the stick, and I want you to at least see another point of view from someone who really isn't affected by the situation. I merely am able to see a point of view that many are ignoring and feel the responsibility to pass it on.
All parties should remember to never ignore another point of view, lest you be labeled blind.
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Kreul Intentions
Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.09.04 02:27:00 -
[69]
Everything has been said and what is done is done, so is this thread.
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