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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)

CCP kieron	Posted - 2007.09.03 18:04:00 - [1] EVE is a game of player versus player conflict and the complex market system can be no less deadly than that of a fleet battle. Akin to the Butterfly Effect, a single trader offering tritanium in Empire space can have an impact on the outcome of a conflict between two alliances hundreds of systems away in 0.0 space. EVE's market is a system that allows the trade of thousands of items across thousands of systems in nearly real-world conditions. In order to help explain the complexities of the EVE market, Dr.EyjoG has written the first of what will be a monthly series of Economic Dev Blogs (EDB). Starting with the building blocks of everything else in the EVE Universe, the inaugural EDB features an in-depth analysis of the mineral market. With no further ado, here is Econ Dev Blog - Market Overview For Mineral Markets. Be prepared, there is a wealth of information in this initial look at the economy of EVE. kieron Director of Community Relations, EVE Online EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang Look Ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait...

Soren PAK	Posted - 2007.09.03 18:06:00 - [2] Edited by: Soren on 03/09/2007 18:06:30 Where's the t2 bs's? your first link is broke, move the tags ☠-->-->--

CCP kieron	Posted - 2007.09.03 18:10:00 - [3] Had a semicolon in the url instead of the letter L. Fixed now! kieron Director of Community Relations, EVE Online EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang Look Ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait...

Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.09.03 18:11:00 - [4] This looks to be the best blog ever for the ones who are into economics. :) --- The Disclosure Project
Lockey	Posted - 2007.09.03 18:13:00 - [5] Edited by: Lockey on 03/09/2007 18:13:34 For once my A-Level economics is coming in handy :)
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.03 18:26:00 - [6] The doctor is alive ! Long live the doctor ! Monthly devblogs ? Great. But... can we expect him to ALSO make posts in the market forum ? Oh, and what of the set of questions compiled by the forum dwellers he was asked a good while ago ? _ Complaint vs whine \| Char creation guide \| Stacknerfs explained
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.03 18:33:00 - [7] ok that blog was at the same time enlightning (for what I understood, economy is getting "uniformized" throughout empire regions?) and a big bunch of cool graphs, for someone not as knowledgeable in economics like me. so, cool! --- truth about EVE: Quote: "Guns are fine, boost players" Quote: "Players are fine, boost guns"
Gabrielle Black	Posted - 2007.09.03 18:40:00 - [8] I'm wondering if any of the regional stabilizations in price and volume can be tied to warp to 0?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.03 18:53:00 - [9] Ok, I just finished reading (and re-reading) the entire devblog and the conclusion ? I am severely dissapointed. Sure, a few nice graphs, some decent analysis on the overall state of the mineral market, some interesting points... but overall, ignoring some of the basic facts of the mineral market in EVE, which throws out the window a good portion of his analysis. The good doctor seems to have not read up on the SOURCES of minerals (and especially tritanium) in the economy, the way mineral prices are interconnected and the reason for the "underdevelopement" of the lowend (and again, espcially tritanium) market in remote regions. Here's a hint for the good doctor : endless supply of tritanium (and other lowends) in Empire space through reprocessing of NPC-sold goods. Also, one huge factor the doctor seems to ignore (or at least, that's what we're led to believe, that he ignores it, if he doesn't, my appologies) about "volume traded" and "value traded" on the open market is the fact that a good deal of the trades made are actually made by traders and resellers, and that since its "discovery" and up until the "refining nerf" the compression market replaces a lot of the lowend mineral market. When talking about the mineral market and each mineral, one just CAN'T ignore the huge number of "compressed minerals" changing hands in form of modules. Really, the doctor should spend less time with the database dumps and a LOT more time conversing with the regulars in the Market forum section. He has a lot of things to learn if he plans on not making such major mistakes in the future. _ Complaint vs whine \| Char creation guide \| Stacknerfs explained
Luigi Thirty Caldari 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2007.09.03 19:04:00 - [10] Edited by: Luigi Thirty on 03/09/2007 19:06:38 With this graph, we can also see that Tritanium causes seizures. ---- DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:((((
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.03 19:34:00 - [11] Edited by: Ishina Fel on 03/09/2007 19:34:32 A very professional look at the ingame mineral market, from a real world perspective... There are however more factors to consider than those presented, as Akita T mentions. Maybe they have been considered and are just not mentioned, but here's something I find important: A huge difference between the gaming economy in EVE - or any gaming economy for that matter - is that fact that people do not need to make real commitments. I mean, sure, organizing the infrastructure of a T2 producing and selling corporation that runs hundreds of assembly lines working both BPOs and invention jobs is not something you pull out of your sleeve in an hour or two, and similarly you can't just 'stop doing it' without a plan (unless you want to annoy a great amount of people). But the people doing that are probably less than 0.05% of the population of EVE. Other markets are more susceptible to players' whims. The mineral market is especially like that. Minerals are one of the really big ways to earn money in EVE - even a mission runner and a 0.0 ratter sells minerals via their loot, and arguably that loot makes up a fair share of the income. And whenever a player is not satisfied with their income, or flat-out bored with yet another day of grinding the same missions, he packs up and leaves for something else. That takes not 20 minutes, and he's two dozen jumps away ratting in Venal. Or mining Crokite. For example Zydrine was already going into overproduction before the drone regions were released. Zydrine prices were way up there, and a select few people were getting rich - stupidly rich! - with mining Crokite. We're talking 200 million an hour with three characters. That did catch on with the rest of EVE eventually. People were packing up their stuff and going to mine Crokite as well. The only thing that stopped a Klondike gold rush from happening were the bubble camps in 0.0 entry systems ( yarr ). Furthermore, the smart people artificially held prices up by playing the market. When the drone regions came it was just the proverbial boot that stomped the equally proverbial last finger with which the Zydrine price was dangling on the then current level. Admittedly, the drone regions did have a big effect. and part of that can be attributed to the same. It is much easier to get in there, even for solo players. It is much easier to make money there - you are actually using a combat ship to rat instead of mining in one of the most expensive moving pinatas the game offers for a roaming solo pilot to pop. And the monetary reward could match or exceed that of mining Crokite. So a lot of people dropped whatever they were doing to the market, packed up and left to do something else somewhere else entirely. Things like that cannot happen in real life - the possibility to completely switch your playstyle and location in a matter of minutes is something unique to MMOs (which after all cater to our well-trained generation of instant gratification addicts ), and the magnitude of its effect on an economy is quite possibly underestimated by a fair bit. We are gamers, we have ADHD, we are whimsical and erratic and greedy, and we have no obligation at all to keep any bridges intact when we decide to move on. Never forget that!
Crazy Yuri	Posted - 2007.09.03 19:38:00 - [12] Aw, c'mon at least the graphs were pretty! Its not called the dismal science for nothing. Akita brings up a good point, I hope our Economy Doctor plays a trader character in the game or is deeply invovled in the industrial part of the game. I might even suggest our good Doctor fly a hulk or some mining barge and mine a few rocks too. Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 03/09/2007 18:58:41 Ok, I just finished reading (and re-reading) the entire devblog and the conclusion ? I am severely dissapointed. Sure, a few nice graphs, some decent analysis on the overall state of the mineral market, some interesting points... but overall, ignoring some of the basic facts of the mineral market in EVE, which throws out the window a good portion of his analysis. The good doctor seems to have not read up on the SOURCES of minerals (and especially tritanium) in the economy, the way mineral prices are interconnected and the reason for the "underdevelopement" of the lowend (and again, espcially tritanium) market in remote regions. Here's a hint for the good doctor : endless supply of tritanium (and other lowends) in Empire space through reprocessing of NPC-sold goods. Also, one huge factor the doctor seems to ignore (or at least, that's what we're led to believe, that he ignores it, if he doesn't, my appologies) about "volume traded" and "value traded" on the open market is the fact that a good deal of the trades made are actually made by traders and resellers, and that since its "discovery" and up until the "refining nerf" the compression market replaces a lot of the lowend mineral market. When talking about the mineral market and each mineral, one just CAN'T ignore the huge number of "compressed minerals" changing hands in form of modules. Really, the doctor should spend less time with the database dumps and a LOT more time conversing with the regulars in the Market forum section. He has a lot of things to learn if he plans on not making such major mistakes in the future. __ P.S. I may have sounded harsher as I meant to. Yes, there's a wealth of information in there, but that's all the useful info this devblog has for the "experienced" players. Sure, for the ones that just PvP or run missions, it's probably major news, but not for those that were interested in trading and manufacture, nothing new here except the graphs. And the suggestion about the doctor coming into the market forums (and make his presence felt there) was not meant as an insult or anything like that, but rather as advice combined with an invitation (plus the cold hard truth about the reason why he should do so).
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.03 19:38:00 - [13] In any case, I am looking forward a great deal to the report dealing with the ISK flows ingame. -What sources are bringing ISK into the game, and what is the order of magnitude among them (lolmissions)? -What ISK sinks exist, and how much are they taking out compared to the influx? -What NPC sell orders and buy orders still exist on the market as of now, and are they really necessary (yes to skillbooks and BPOs, but the rest...)? -In which direction does CCP want the amount of ISK in circulation go - is there more coming in than they want? What amount is considered healthy for an economy, and does the ingame economy differ from that ideal? If yes, what steps could be taken to better regulate the amount of ISK into the ideal direction, without actually regulating the market itself? -What influence do trial account players have on the amount of ISK in circulation - after all, they can mine up 20 million, then time out and never log on again, thus taking that amount out of the economy... or they can farm 20m in missions and buy something expensive from another player and then never log on again, thus injecting that amount.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.09.03 19:53:00 - [14] I have to say I found the Blog a bit lacking. I am thrilled to see an economic dev blog. Without a doubt EVE has the most dynamic and deep market simulation out today. It is a HUGE part of EVE and indeed I would say the base upon which all else rests. Till now I have found the near non-existant discussions from the Devs on this aspect of their game sad to say the least. That they now have the good Doctor in to give this a much needed look is great! The blog itself is an interesting collection of trends since EVE started but I see little in the way of analysis. Sure there is a nod here and there to what the data is telling him/us but not much really. (I should note I am glad to see the hard data that shows just how hard the drone regions messed things up there.) As AkitaT mentioned above there are some real issues in the EVE economy that this blog wholly ignores. I found the graph that showed how well regional prices tracked on each other (barring Wicked Creek but 0.0 is a different issue). The blog mentioned how ores were asymmetrical in their distribution. In reality not so much. Yes, some regions have some ore others do not but on the whole this amounts to little given how minerals are distributed in the ore. Add in melting of loot and it smoothes out whatever little the mineral layout of different ores have. As a result there is little room for economic warfare. Especially in 0.0 where (if they actually bothered to mine low ends) could be wholly self sufficient. And why mine low ends in 0.0 when with mineral compression it makes FAR more sense to sell valuable minerals and haul the cheap stuff back? Toss in jumping carriers or jump bridged freighters leaves almost no room to hit an opponent economically. Low sec and its almost total lack of player interest is not addressed. The list can be long and again while I am very happy to see this blog and am interested in what was there I really wish there was more of substance. Trends for the last 4 years are great...but what does that mean for us today?
Captain Schmungles Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.09.03 20:08:00 - [15] Excellent blog. Especially interesting to see the price uniformity between regions. It would be interesting if the doctor would write a blog looking at the relationship between mineral prices in "market hubs" and mineral prices across regions to determine whether the market hub dictates prices or if market hubs merely react to prices set at broader regional levels.

Pirlouit Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.09.03 20:10:00 - [16] Oh boy, What a devblog, it is really interesting and nice to see the historical perspective. As regarding to the causes of some of the variations, it would be nice to coincide some of the variations with the patch release and how they have modified the overall economic picture. Kinda relating the causes (patch note/economic schock) to the consequences. But it definitively look good and tasty. forum rules \| email

Kvarium Ki Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.03 20:15:00 - [17] "This graph shows this." "This graph shows that." Very disapointing to be honest. You don't need a PhD to tell that a little bar is going up or down and that means that the price, volume, or what ever is going up or down. What I want to know is the effects that these fluctuations have on the game. Or why do these fluctuations occure.
Blind Man Angel Deep Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.03 20:20:00 - [18] amazing blog
Sleepkevert Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.03 20:28:00 - [19] Damn, the sheer amount of data in that blog is staggering! Sign my sig
Dei Amarr Guiders' Of Light	Posted - 2007.09.03 20:28:00 - [20] Would be interesting to see the prices of different regions on a smaller scale so we can see which regions seems to have the control of the prices, and then spreads the 'news' to the surrounding regions. It was a good start though, of course the first blog is going to be very generalised - it's the first one! --- The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack
Yongrui	Posted - 2007.09.03 20:32:00 - [21] Glad you've at least taken a cursory look at the mineral market and given a view of distribution and at least one historical correlation of prices vs population over time. While unlikely to know for certain, it would be interesting to know the impact that mineral farmers (macroers) have on the market. The graphs are "pretty" but could be much better at presenting meaningful information. Have a look at some of the work by Edward Tufte.
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.03 20:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Kvarium Ki "This graph shows this." "This graph shows that." Very disapointing to be honest. You don't need a PhD to tell that a little bar is going up or down and that means that the price, volume, or what ever is going up or down. What I want to know is the effects that these fluctuations have on the game. Or why do these fluctuations occure. Everyone can draw a graph from some data. Not everyone can gather the data for a graph correctly. By far and wide not everyone. Go through them again and make a mental list of logs this data has to have been pulled from - this is easily a month's work just comparing numbers.
DrummelHolmen Amarr Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.03 20:57:00 - [23] Nice blog, keep it up. The awesome EVE market(one of its kind) in the worlds of MMOs is what keeps me ingame. Alot of EVE has gone downhill from the fresh game that I started playing in 2003. On the other side we have the Market, it just gets more and more instresting for each day :D Hope to see more blogs like this one in the future.
Anna Sofia Lagavullin	Posted - 2007.09.03 21:00:00 - [24] great blog, I'm very much looking forward to more economic dev-blogs. Guess I'm not the only one tha'd love to have access to the datasets used :)
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.09.03 21:01:00 - [25] lots of info there, but what does it all mean to me? looks like we will find out with the next blog. also what about the named module markets, and faction?
Malashek Vatrii Non-Conformist Amarr Loyalists	Posted - 2007.09.03 21:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Lockey Edited by: Lockey on 03/09/2007 18:13:34 For once my A-Level economics is coming in handy :) Same. I understand that stuff! * * * *
Apoh Ehnt	Posted - 2007.09.03 21:36:00 - [27] What's EVE's GDP per capita? ;)
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.09.03 21:54:00 - [28] [Link to Alternate Thread] For record, as there was a good discussion going there.
Estel Arador Minmatar EA Corp	Posted - 2007.09.03 22:03:00 - [29] Great blog. Looking forward to the next one =AFK=
Dal Thrax Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.03 22:03:00 - [30] Hum has anybody let this economist know that low end mineral prices are price controlled by reprocessing NPC goods. This is especially true with Trit that tends to trade just under the price control (which was until the last couple weeks, due to an accident on CCP's part at 2.4 isk.) The current price of Trit and Pyre seems to have more to do with the price control and inputs from the reprocessing of NPC loot then with the mining of those minerals. Dal Originally by: Seleene It seems to me that 'independence' is a relative term these days, determined mainly by the size and number of your guns.

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