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Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Elmicker Local currently provides the hunter and the hunted with exactly the same intel which is equally advantageous to the semi-static hunted and the mobile hunter. Altering it in any way carries far too many repurcussions to ever be viable. I don't understand your logic here. Both sides benefit from local equally, so altering local in any way would be the end of the world? Seems to me like both sides would still be on equal footing...except now they'd have to work for their intel. ---------------
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Nicho Void Seems to me like both sides would still be on equal footing The attacking force is, by its very nature, at an advantage when searching out a defender via any player-controlled method. And.. erm.. Why do you want to work for your intel? Timesinks ftl.
Nicocat Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:20:00 - [33] Local's not gonna change, quit making topics. Next! ---------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:46:00 - [34] I agree that local should show only how many are in the local system and not who they are. The same as 'show pilots' in the map, it indicates only how busy a system is. If I drive into your town, does a big balloon go up with my name on it so everyone knows I am there? Then why should it do so in the game? I worked in a gatehouse and sensors at the gates calculated how many people were on site but not who they were. In an evacuation, I needed only to count heads to make sure everyone was out. This system should be in place in local so that activities like Covops are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Having my name splashed across local takes the Covert out of Covert ops. It won't be a game breaker except for those who are too lazy to use a scanner. No more 'dock when a hostile enters local' so PVP combat actually happens. Players will adapt the same as they did with WTZ. It won't be all good for pirates either. They won't know if it's new prey entering or bounty hunters coming to gank them. War decced station huggers won't know if they should zoom off to the safety of the station because it's a hostile or stay in the belt cos it's a neutral. --
Nex Angelus Caldari Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:25:00 - [35] I feel that my question to Oveur never got of the ground in the EVE-TV forum... Let's try it here
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Elmicker Quote: Using "local" as an intel tool = metagaming. How is using an ingame tool, that all players have access to, that is explained thoroughly in the backstory metagaming? "Metagaming" includes but is not limited to any piece of knowledge that is available to the avatar's controller but shouldn't be available to the avatar itself normally. Would you please kindly link to the part of the backstory that says every pilot in the system automatically broadcasts his presence to everybody else in the same system ? _ EVE GOLDEN RULES \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:03:00 - [37] Show me how MANY are in local but don't show me WHO is in local please. That would be a good start. I would prefer the constellation thing over local too. Put everyone in constellation not Local. That way we know when a fleet is in our area but not where it is. Or when hostiles are in our area but not where they are. Some places might have 1,000+ in constellation chat but you can always just make them not register until they talk...maybe...I don't know... --- Put in space whales!
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:15:00 - [38] Edited by: Elmicker on 13/09/2007 00:15:42 Originally by: Akita T Would you please kindly link to the part of the backstory that says every pilot in the system automatically broadcasts his presence to everybody else in the same system ? Not quite exact... However, every pilot is connected to a universal internet. If you're clutching at straws for arguments against convenient intel, you may aswell allow the counter argument to similarly clutch at straws for arguments to explain it. S'only fair. Though again, i'd like to ask why anyone would want to remove local. It doesn't benefit anyone at all. All it results in is more timesinks.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.13 08:54:00 - [39] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Nicho Void Seems to me like both sides would still be on equal footing The attacking force is, by its very nature, at an advantage when searching out a defender via any player-controlled method. And.. erm.. Why do you want to work for your intel? Timesinks ftl. It's not that big of advantage if any at all, defending force still has his scanner and attacking force still has to find his target. So if you jump randomly to a belt you only have a small chance that you will find him, but if you try to scan him then he is also able to scan you. And speaking about advantages, you don't see any towards defending player the way its working right now?? Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 13/09/2007 00:15:42 Originally by: Akita T Would you please kindly link to the part of the backstory that says every pilot in the system automatically broadcasts his presence to everybody else in the same system ? Not quite exact... However, every pilot is connected to a universal internet. If you're clutching at straws for arguments against convenient intel, you may aswell allow the counter argument to similarly clutch at straws for arguments to explain it. S'only fair. Though again, i'd like to ask why anyone would want to remove local. It doesn't benefit anyone at all. All it results in is more timesinks. If you like to talk about arguments so much then please present at least one viable one in favor of keeping local the way its now? What we're really hearing now from ppl against removing local is: Don't Nobody will benefit from it (Yet nobody cared to explain how 'I won't benefit from them not being able to know I just jumped into the system') Please don't ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Grunanca Fusion Mercenaries Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:00:00 - [40] Imagine a merc corp having a contract on a person... Now you use locator agents and find his system, then you look in local to see if he is still there when you arrive, if not you chek sorrounding systems. This should take less than 5 minutes and you can then move on. If loccal was not there, you would have to chek all stations and probe for hours just to chek ONE system... Wouldnt work...
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:03:00 - [41] Originally by: Rake Mizar Ah this old chestnut... Why local can't give you a real-time count of people in the system without identifying them unless they speak is my question. This wouldn't make it impossible to figure out if you have a potential hostile in system, but it would take more work than current which is zero. Answer: Because in 0.0 it is forbidden to speak in local. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and
Sfatia	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:13:00 - [42] Edited by: Sfatia on 13/09/2007 09:15:55 Locator agent could tell u where exactly he is like belt V-6 in system X! maybe what ship too? maybe locator agent then informs the requested person say 5 minutes later that it was done a search for him,if both hunter and hunted are close, if not, the time before agent informs the hunted, can be counted by jumps the hunter would need (dont need to be exact)so the hunter gets a chance to actually be there before agent informs the hunted.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:21:00 - [43] Originally by: Grunanca Imagine a merc corp having a contract on a person... Now you use locator agents and find his system, then you look in local to see if he is still there when you arrive, if not you chek sorrounding systems. This should take less than 5 minutes and you can then move on. If loccal was not there, you would have to chek all stations and probe for hours just to chek ONE system... Wouldnt work... Imagine that you are not alone in the universe and somebody actually bothers to fly with you. Now imagine you got a corpmate asking locator agents and you and your merry crew go to a system where the guy is supposed to be. When you get there your friend can just ask again if he is still in the system and BAM you're right there with the current situation (having local on). You still have to scan/look for the guy just as you'd have to if local was present and if you want to know if the guy left the system then just cover the gates, nobody said that bounty hunting should be easy. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Slazia Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.09.13 10:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Khan Soriano Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Nicho Void What we're really hearing now from ppl against removing local is: Don't Nobody will benefit from it (Yet nobody cared to explain how 'I won't benefit from them not being able to know I just jumped into the system') Please don't Removing local is fine, but something else would need to replace it. New equipment, skills, sensors etc. If we just removed local without making any other changes I doubt it would be as much interest. How about trying it out yourself, close local and try playing (perhaps use an alt so as not to risk your main). Fly around 0.0 and try to track people down. The game world is too big; warfare would become a series of random encounters instead of planned tactical operations. Mission, miners and ratters would have to constantly hit æscanÆ every 5 seconds just in case someone is warping towards themà.
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.13 10:01:00 - [45] Edited by: Tzrailasa on 13/09/2007 10:05:16 Originally by: Khan Soriano Originally by: Saint Luka Would simply destroy the game for alot of people except carebears (yes thats right.) Pirates/hunters would waste several hours to the point of bordem and /wrist or quit. Have you ever pirated yourself because from what you've said I'm pretty sure you are talking about a subject you have no experience with? Why would pirates quit the game? One of their more useful tools would still be in the game (statistics->show pilots in space). I don't need some stupid local chat to tell me if anyone is in the system because I have to scan anyway to know who is doing what and what prey is available to me. How is current situation better for pirates? I enter the system, spot 5 people on local, they do the same and warp to POS. I still got nothing to catch and I'm bored too but you don't see me quitting the game do you?!?!?! But if we turn local I might get lucky because one of them got****y and didn't spam the scanner. While I sometimes wish for local to disappear, I don't think your scenario is correct, since you ignore what most peoples reaction to having no local (with no other changes) would be. In my experience, people in EVE are generally so risk-aware that they'll immediately see that without local, the 'cost' of ratting in 0.0 (ie. lost ships) would go way up. At this point, they'd move their moneymaking to L4 missioning in empire which already (imho) pays better than ratting anyway. So, the 5 people in local you had before a local nerf would be 1 after a local nerf, and that one guy would be looking for targets to kill just like yourself. So, we're back to the boredom, /wrist or quit.... --- A simple removal of local would not be usable as the effort of spamming scan every 2-5 seconds is simply too much to be realistic. What would be needed if local is removed, is something like an on-screen 'radar screen' instead, with about the same range as the current scanner, which could show you when ships come close to you (it should NOT help pinpoint the location of the ships). That would still require the hunted to be alert (watch the radar and be aligned), but he wouldn't need to constantly spam the scan button. For the hunter the advantage would be that he wouldn't be revealed the moment he jumps into system. Note: This idea still needs polishing, but what is essential to any solution that it favors both parties, both the hunter and the hunted. Just removing local massively favors only the hunter and thus would never work. My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.*
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.13 10:53:00 - [46] Originally by: Slazia Removing local is fine, but something else would need to replace it. New equipment, skills, sensors etc. If we just removed local without making any other changes I doubt it would be as much interest. How about trying it out yourself, close local and try playing (perhaps use an alt so as not to risk your main). Fly around 0.0 and try to track people down. The game world is too big; warfare would become a series of random encounters instead of planned tactical operations. Mission, miners and ratters would have to constantly hit æscanÆ every 5 seconds just in case someone is warping towards themà. Removing local is worst possible idea. It will just add boredom to the game. Replacement it with equipment is not option. We do not have spare slots on our ships Replacement it with equipment is not option too. Current local is near perfect. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2007.09.13 10:59:00 - [47] guys ... honestly ... cpp utterly failed with their WTZ change ... do you honestly think they would simply remove local now??? a shame for the game IMO but bleh ... Money is all that counts in this world ... and with only the 0.0 crowd eve wouldnt be here anymore (ccp would be bankrupt) ... we need the carebears cuz they are simply financing the possibility of 0.0 warfare who was it from the ccp staff who said they are actually catering for WoW players ... with this attitude dont expect a harsh, cold cruel world anymore! The dream is gone, I woke up when they released Rev. 1.0. From that point on it was clear that this game has left its hardcore vision behind. live with it Greetings Grim
Xoria Krint The Movement	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:02:00 - [48] Remove it and make Eve what its suppose to be.. Eve's difficult today: Medium Back in the days: Ultra Hard If they remove local: Hard And I like it hard - My Movies
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:03:00 - [49] Originally by: Zixxa Current local is near perfect. No, it isn't, for exactly the same reason that 'no local' would be bad too. The reason is that it massively favors one group of players, in this case the hunted. Same problem as 'no local' except favoring the other group. The main thing that's bad with local as it is, is that it gives 100% accurate and immediate information at no effort. A middle solution needs to be found... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Case Micoud	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:08:00 - [50] Edited by: Case Micoud on 13/09/2007 11:13:22 A simple idea would be to delay local for 30-60 seconds. Gives time for the attacker to find the ratter if he is quick. The ratter can still escape if he is aligned... Another idea would be to make people visible in local in relation to the alliance that has sovreignity and the level of sovreignity in a particular system. So if my alliance has full sovreignity in a system I see everyone in local as soon as he enters. Then as sovreignity lvl goes down, the delay on local goes up. Further I would make players with cov op cloak fitted ships invisible in local. Just some ideas. Edit: In low sec you would actually have to have good standing with the sovreign npc alliance.
Raneru Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:16:00 - [51] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Show me how MANY are in local but don't show me WHO is in local please. That would be a good start. Agreed. It should be like alliance chat so you dont appear until you say something (should be like this for constellation and region channels also). It would a great incentive to not smack people in local as well
Meyha Jusime	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:19:00 - [52] Edited by: Meyha Jusime on 13/09/2007 11:19:22 The 5th trillion omgwtftheresstilllocal bs-thread...if you cant live with it nor get easy ganks go and play WOW ffs
Xoria Krint The Movement	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:19:00 - [53] Originally by: Meyha Jusime The 5th trillion omgwtftheresstilllocal bs-thread...if you cant live with it nor get easy ganks go and play wow ffs Haha.. Can I have him? cuddle - My Movies
Jade190	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:49:00 - [54] Originally by: Zeke Novak Posting here to counteract the vocal minority who want local removed. It works quite well as it is, whiners who can't gank as easily as they like be damned. Agreed. Everyone needs to STFU and play the game
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.13 12:04:00 - [55] Edited by: Needo on 13/09/2007 12:06:07 I kinda like the idea that you can turn your comm-relay off -> you dont show up on local, you cannot read local or any other chat channel. If this would be implemented you would need a signature count in the scanner window (ie total nr of pilots in the system). The biggest impact would prolly be that it would be near impossible for alliances to know if there are cloakers in a busy system, so if this was implemented it would actually make sense to be able to probe down inactive cloakers somehow. Edit: you could also add a sec hit for having comm-relay offline in empire space? ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
William Alex Viscosity	Posted - 2007.09.13 12:04:00 - [56] Originally by: Ed Gein Oveur already said they plan on removing it at some point and replacing it some game mechanic at some point..... I am assuming no one watched him speak on the alliance tournament in this thread. I've also been told that Jove would be playable someday.
Raven DeBlade Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.09.13 12:08:00 - [57] Make Cov Ops pilots/ships dissapear in local when they cloak. "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees"
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:13:00 - [58] Edited by: Princess Jodi on 13/09/2007 15:15:45 Drizit, you're post exemplifies the exact one-sided mindset of those who want local removed so perfectly, I just had to quote it and pick it apart: Originally by: Drizit I agree that local should show only how many are in the local system and not who they are. The same as 'show pilots' in the map, it indicates only how busy a system is. If I drive into your town, does a big balloon go up with my name on it so everyone knows I am there? Then why should it do so in the game? Yes, actually, there is a big balloon. You're showing up on all kinds of monitoring systems, and if you actually did something like stopped for Gas and a Coke and paid with a Credit Card you'd be surprised at how much information is gathered on you. Certainly a stargate which let you in would know alot about you. Originally by: Drizit I worked in a gatehouse and sensors at the gates calculated how many people were on site but not who they were. In an evacuation, I needed only to count heads to make sure everyone was out. So...If someone wants to do anything like mine or rat, they need to only do so in a completely empty system? Cuz you realize that friendlies won't show up either. I can see a system with 20 people from 5 different allied corps all cowering in safe spots because they don't know the whole system is freindly. Originally by: Drizit This system should be in place in local so that activities like Covops are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Having my name splashed across local takes the Covert out of Covert ops. It won't be a game breaker except for those who are too lazy to use a scanner. No more 'dock when a hostile enters local' so PVP combat actually happens. Players will adapt the same as they did with WTZ. You've tipped your hand here: You like it cuz you fly a Covert Ops, so all you ever really want to do is remain hidden. Did you ever consider that there are others who would like to actually play as well? Like miners, industralists, ratters, mission runners and fleet battles? And your answer is 'use the scanner.' So you expect everone in Eve to be pressing a button every few seconds to protect themselves from you? No thanks, I'll look at local every few seconds instead. Easier on the mouse finger. Originally by: Drizit It won't be all good for pirates either. They won't know if it's new prey entering or bounty hunters coming to gank them. War decced station huggers won't know if they should zoom off to the safety of the station because it's a hostile or stay in the belt cos it's a neutral. Great...so no one will know anything about the tactical situation, no instant analysis of Friend-Foe-Neutrals, no real idea if a 100-man fleet jumped in during the last 10 seconds since you scanned? Oh wait...Lag would tell us that, and CCP seems to be consistent in implementing the Lag feature. Removing local is the WORST idea I have ever heard about in Eve. I'm afraid those making arguments to do so are completly one-sided.
veritas primus	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:40:00 - [59] Please remove local CCP and finish this games downward spiral to the pits of hell that it has become. The transition will then be complete.
Yorick Downe	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: vipeer As Oveur said himself a big problem of Eve is that you may have 700 ppl in the system that cannot see each other at all in most cases. Local chat partly alleviates that problem. As has been pointed out, during the Alliance tournament, Oveur stated that local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat. Either Oveur is contradicting himself, or one of us has misinformation. I know my source was recorded. He said both things, and he said even more - that sitting there having to hit the "Scan" button once a second is neither fun nor particularly immersive. We got these kitted-out high-tech spaceships, and they can't automate a scan? What I take away from it is this. Oveur and the CCP EvE team are aware that: - There's a need to see at a glance how many people are in system, to foster community, as you can't see them "run past you" as you can in ground-based MMOs - There's a need to not see at a glance how many people are in system, so you don't have "free intel" - The scanner's interface is a micro-managed abomination and needs some serious lovin What all of that boils down to, I think, is really just that CCP is aware that scanning and local is an issue, that there are conflicting requirements, and that more thinking is needed before a solution that works has been found. I'm sure they have ideas, but I'm equally sure we won't hear about them until they know what they're doing. Read Oveur's last blog on new T2 ships -- "now I can tell you because now we know ourselves". This also means there's an opportunity here for people to come up with really good design ideas to resolve the apparently conflicting requirements. Off the cuff, exploring the idea that "no intel" is more important in certain systems while "socializing" is more important in others seems an avenue worth exploring. The 4th dimension is also an idea to take into account. Ideally, someone will come up w/ a brilliant idea that no one has thought of so far, will get heard, and CCP will make things oh so much better :). As a combat pilot, I'd be ecstatic if both the scanner and local got much loving. No free intel + a scanner that doesn't need microsecond micromanagement == fiesta on the bridge.

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