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Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:07:00 - [1] So now we all know we will have more ships that are supposed to be 'covert' in some way. That brings me to the eternal question of: Why the hell do we need to see pilots in local chat????? How do you actually prepare covert operations in your Black Ops BS if the second you all jump into the system everybody and their mother knows that local went from 2 NPCers to 10ppl, all from some different alliance/corporation??? If CCP is afraid to implement such change (make it work like alliance chat ie. if you speak on it then you become visible) because it would make the game too hard for some of their client base (yes fluffy carebears & mission *****s I'm talking about you) then at least consider doing it in 0.0, its supposed to be this 'hard and hostile space', remember? The way it is now, loosing a ship while hunting rats in 0.0 is almost impossible if you're not a total idiot and recent heavy usage of cloaked BS only makes it even easier (now even total idiots are pirate proof). I'd also like to know if you plan on doing the whole 'make cloaked ships scannable in some way' idea, since it seems like a good time to do it. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Saint Luka The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:15:00 - [2] Edited by: Saint Luka on 12/09/2007 15:14:53 Would simply destroy the game for alot of people except carebears (yes thats right.) Pirates/hunters would waste several hours to the point of bordem and /wrist or quit. 0.0 warefare would just turn into a ghey fest. Carebears would be happy if they knew how to use a scanner and stayed aligned. Removing local is an incredibly stupid move.
theteck	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:30:00 - [3] the local its important tactical information
Rake Mizar Freelance Assassins	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:35:00 - [4] Ah this old chestnut... Why local can't give you a real-time count of people in the system without identifying them unless they speak is my question. This wouldn't make it impossible to figure out if you have a potential hostile in system, but it would take more work than current which is zero. WTB: T2 Exotic Dancers
Mystic Pete	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:37:00 - [5] The topic that just keeps coming back. I've heard lots for people with fair points wanting to keep local but my gut feeling is still get rid of it. Maybe only in 0.0 as you suggest. As for the scanning cloaked ships, without local you could potentially get in visual range of a ship before it saw you and cloaked by which time it would be too late. So for now I say leave cloaking as it is, especially if were considering removing local
Ed Anger Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:42:00 - [6] isn't it more fun to jump cloaked into a system and watch everyone freak out? local ftw
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:46:00 - [7] without local it would take hours from empire to the outer regions if you're having to scan every gate for a possible bubble and smart bombing ship. ---
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:48:00 - [8] No, don't remove local. Don't alter it either. And I seem to have lost the battle against cloaked ships, as the new patch will not do what was needed and will do things it should not do. In my opinion, the only problem with cloaks was the 23/7 afk cloaked ship in system. The reasoning has been presented before so I won't start that argument up again. I personally felt that cloaks should use fuel, like Heavy Water, or overheat or something, so that you needed to be active at the keyboard to remain cloaked in system. Unfortunately, the new patch info seems to indicate that the argument was lost on CCP, and that other nerfing has been chosen as an answer. Oh, well - Win Some Lose Some. But removing Local is a disaster in the making for many playstyles. The simplest example I can give is the CareBear one: You would never know if space was secure, which means you are either sitting ducks or you need to reduce your efficiency on Mining/Ratting/Missioning by devoting some resources to potential PVP threats. From an Alliance-building standpoint, no local will mean that you cannot protect/defend/patrol your space. And would not BOTH sides be upset if two 50-man fleets just passed in the night because they couldn't see each other? I believe that those promoting 'No Local' believe that their personal playstyle will be enhanced by the lack of information. I don't believe that the promoters have objectively looked at the repercussions for ALL playstyles.
Ed Gein Shadow Squadron Returns	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:56:00 - [9] Oveur already said they plan on removing it at some point and replacing it some game mechanic at some point..... I am assuming no one watched him speak on the alliance tournament in this thread. --------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you call the person that brings a gun to a knife fight? The Winner.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.12 15:59:00 - [10] Originally by: Khan Soriano So now we all know we will have more ships that are supposed to be 'covert' in some way. That brings me to the eternal question of: Why the hell do we need to see pilots in local chat????? If CCP remove the local, most people ratting in 0.0 will either get ganked one time too many, or get bored refreshing their scanner every 5 seconds, then return make their moeny in high-sec. Then the pvpers supporting the removing of local will cry, because they won't have many targets left. This is basically what happened when scanning mission-runners in low-sec was a matter of seconds. It's a good thing CCP try to think a little more on the long-term. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
eve warrior Minmatar Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:00:00 - [11] I think they should make a New Skill, this skill would allow you as the pilot to Bribe the ppl running the Stargate you are jumping though. Lvl 1 could give you 1min before you are seen in local, Lvl 2 could give you 2min ect... The skill could go under the Social skills. At lvl 5 you would still only have 5min max to do what he needed before been in the local chat but this would be more than enuf time to gather Covert ops intel, move a small gang though several local systems undetected. Could add a new dimention in Covert ops, Intel gathering and Guerilla warfare. I find this might be a good Compromise betweet No Local and Local. Just an Idear, Eve Warrior
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 3asy Company	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:01:00 - [12] Well i think that is a great suggestion and agree completely. The comparison with alliance chat would work just fine i beleive that that is how it should work. www.eve-players.com
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:14:00 - [13] Originally by: Saint Luka Edited by: Saint Luka on 12/09/2007 15:14:53 Would simply destroy the game for alot of people except carebears (yes thats right.) Pirates/hunters would waste several hours to the point of bordem and /wrist or quit. Have you ever pirated yourself because from what you've said I'm pretty sure you are talking about a subject you have no experience with? Why would pirates quit the game? One of their more useful tools would still be in the game (statistics->show pilots in space). I don't need some stupid local chat to tell me if anyone is in the system because I have to scan anyway to know who is doing what and what prey is available to me. How is current situation better for pirates? I enter the system, spot 5 people on local, they do the same and warp to POS. I still got nothing to catch and I'm bored too but you don't see me quitting the game do you?!?!?! But if we turn local I might get lucky because one of them got***y and didn't spam the scanner. Originally by:** Saint Luka 0.0 warefare would just turn into a ghey fest. Hello, 0.0 warfare is ghey fest already!!! Now its only gatecamps and blob warfare, because to actually catch something on belts is like winning the lottery. Originally by: Saint Luka Carebears would be happy if they knew how to use a scanner and stayed aligned. Good carebears spam scanner anyway, but what I'm targeting are those that forget to do it and I can't do it right now because local gives me up. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
iiOs Evil Things	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:23:00 - [14] im all in for removing local or making it like alliance ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Szaman Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:28:00 - [15] Signed Local smells bad. Just get rid of it and get constellation chat insted. It will give recons n cov-ops a new meaning
Tobizuru Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:34:00 - [16] As I see it when you see a person in Local it means that their "com-links" are online and public. So if you were to shut off your own public communications it would render you hidden to the rest of the system but at the same time you wouldn't know who else is in the system, who is coming in and out and so on. Just somethin' that I thought about when reading the subject. -------------------- If I only had a Face... :'( Sig Edit: Wait wtf is this?!
Empire marketslave	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:37:00 - [17] the number in local and you only show if you speak is a good idea as long as its only to people currently in the system lets say your system is JP-007 if you and your gang mates make of 5 out of 5 in local you all say hi so you show up when hey leave it will take them off and if a new person comes in you will notice the number go up
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2007.09.12 16:59:00 - [18] Read sig == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
James Swindle	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:13:00 - [19] Didn't read all the threads but couldn't CCP just make it so people who have cloaks activated and/or fitted don't appear in local???
Heritor Caldari Polytope	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Khan Soriano Why would pirates quit the game? One of their more useful tools would still be in the game (statistics->show pilots in space). I don't need some stupid local chat to tell me if anyone is in the system because I have to scan anyway to know who is doing what and what prey is available to me. How is current situation better for pirates? I enter the system, spot 5 people on local, they do the same and warp to POS. I still got nothing to catch and I'm bored too but you don't see me quitting the game do you?!?!?! But if we turn local I might get lucky because one of them got***y and didn't spam the scanner. So it ok for you to have a tool that gives you some chance** of seeing who is in a system but no tool to help carebears to detect your arrival in system...typical whiner who wants more help to gank carebears Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you!
Jack Jombardo	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:20:00 - [21] it's funny to see how people who like to annoy other peoble are annoyed becouse there is something that prevent there doing :). for a 0.0 miner it's not funny to be ganged by wannabe Pirates. for wannabe Pirates it's not funny that there is something working against them ;). (local chat now) live with it!
DAV3Y JON3S	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:31:00 - [22] Local is a passive scanner always there always working...Your warp drive shows up on it. It just happens to be on the sme frequency as smack talk. "Nuff said"
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.09.12 17:55:00 - [23] Local chat is one of the best things ingame. It benefits everyone so piwates, please stop whining to remove it. This is a MMORPG after all and communication is a pivotal part of the game. As Oveur said himself a big problem of Eve is that you may have 700 ppl in the system that cannot see each other at all in most cases. Local chat partly alleviates that problem. Leave local is it is. Chaining BoBo in south Feyth: Your Neutron Blaster Cannon II perfectly strikes Dukath [EVOL]<BOB>(Vindicator), wrecking for 741.0 damage.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Heritor So it ok for you to have a tool that gives you some chance of seeing who is in a system but no tool to help carebears to detect your arrival in system...typical whiner who wants more help to gank carebears We both would use the same tool (scanner) so nothing is preventing carebears to be careful and not getting ganked, I just think the way its now local only benefits one side and poses a problem for the other. Originally by: vipeer Local chat is one of the best things ingame. It benefits everyone so piwates, please stop whining to remove it. This is a MMORPG after all and communication is a pivotal part of the game. As Oveur said himself a big problem of Eve is that you may have 700 ppl in the system that cannot see each other at all in most cases. Local chat partly alleviates that problem. Leave local is it is. It would help US communicate on forums if you'd read what I wrote. If you want to chat with other people on local you'd still be able to do so!!!! Look at alliance chat and the way it works, you don't see anybody in there but you all can talk in your overbloated mIRC client, but once you talk you make yourself visible to anyone there. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:31:00 - [25] Local was meant to be a CHAT channel. Using "local" as an intel tool = metagaming. Exploiting the fear of metagaming "local as intel" users through AFK-cloaking = PURE WIN. Turning "local" into a "delayed mode" channel would be quite acceptable. _ EVE GOLDEN RULES \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:31:00 - [26] There needs to be some means of knowing if you have hostiles in the neighborhood or .0 would become even more of a blob fest than it is now. Why go anywhere without 100 buddies backing you up when youve no guarantee the other guy doesnt have 100 ships at a safespot waiting to BBQ you. Unfortunately, as the old adage goes local is the worst solution to the problem, with the exception of all the others. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:40:00 - [27] Originally by: vipeer As Oveur said himself a big problem of Eve is that you may have 700 ppl in the system that cannot see each other at all in most cases. Local chat partly alleviates that problem. As has been pointed out, during the Alliance tournament, Oveur stated that local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat. Either Oveur is contradicting himself, or one of us has misinformation. I know my source was recorded. ---------------
Ling Mai School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:40:00 - [28] Only one good thing would come from removing local, or pilots from local. Most of the idiot smacktards would finally stfu because they wouldn't know if they there was anyone listening or not. Course, some would prolly continue, and just smack themselves instead.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.12 21:53:00 - [29] Edited by: Elmicker on 12/09/2007 21:56:42 Quote: Using "local" as an intel tool = metagaming. How is using an ingame tool, that all players have access to, that is explained thoroughly in the backstory metagaming? Quote: Turning "local" into a "delayed mode" channel would be quite acceptable. Yeah, apart from collapsing 0.0 overnight. Fun for level 4 ***s, though. Originally by:** Khan Soriano We both would use the same tool (scanner) so nothing is preventing carebears to be careful and not getting ganked, I just think the way its now local only benefits one side and poses a problem for the other. Scanner only extends 14AU. Good luck aligning and warping out before that interceptor lands on you. Let's not even start on recon ships... Local currently provides the hunter and the hunted with exactly the same intel which is equally advantageous to the semi-static hunted and the mobile hunter. Altering it in any way carries far too many repurcussions to ever be viable.
Zeke Novak Outlaws N Angels	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:01:00 - [30] Posting here to counteract the vocal minority who want local removed. It works quite well as it is, whiners who can't gank as easily as they like be damned. -- Reality.sys corrupt. Reboot Universe? (y/n/q)
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Elmicker Local currently provides the hunter and the hunted with exactly the same intel which is equally advantageous to the semi-static hunted and the mobile hunter. Altering it in any way carries far too many repurcussions to ever be viable. I don't understand your logic here. Both sides benefit from local equally, so altering local in any way would be the end of the world? Seems to me like both sides would still be on equal footing...except now they'd have to work for their intel. ---------------
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Nicho Void Seems to me like both sides would still be on equal footing The attacking force is, by its very nature, at an advantage when searching out a defender via any player-controlled method. And.. erm.. Why do you want to work for your intel? Timesinks ftl.
Nicocat Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:20:00 - [33] Local's not gonna change, quit making topics. Next! ---------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY Down with alts! One character per account per IP!
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.12 22:46:00 - [34] I agree that local should show only how many are in the local system and not who they are. The same as 'show pilots' in the map, it indicates only how busy a system is. If I drive into your town, does a big balloon go up with my name on it so everyone knows I am there? Then why should it do so in the game? I worked in a gatehouse and sensors at the gates calculated how many people were on site but not who they were. In an evacuation, I needed only to count heads to make sure everyone was out. This system should be in place in local so that activities like Covops are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Having my name splashed across local takes the Covert out of Covert ops. It won't be a game breaker except for those who are too lazy to use a scanner. No more 'dock when a hostile enters local' so PVP combat actually happens. Players will adapt the same as they did with WTZ. It won't be all good for pirates either. They won't know if it's new prey entering or bounty hunters coming to gank them. War decced station huggers won't know if they should zoom off to the safety of the station because it's a hostile or stay in the belt cos it's a neutral. --
Nex Angelus Caldari Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Tre Kroner	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:25:00 - [35] I feel that my question to Oveur never got of the ground in the EVE-TV forum... Let's try it here
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.12 23:36:00 - [36] Originally by: Elmicker Quote: Using "local" as an intel tool = metagaming. How is using an ingame tool, that all players have access to, that is explained thoroughly in the backstory metagaming? "Metagaming" includes but is not limited to any piece of knowledge that is available to the avatar's controller but shouldn't be available to the avatar itself normally. Would you please kindly link to the part of the backstory that says every pilot in the system automatically broadcasts his presence to everybody else in the same system ? _ EVE GOLDEN RULES \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:03:00 - [37] Show me how MANY are in local but don't show me WHO is in local please. That would be a good start. I would prefer the constellation thing over local too. Put everyone in constellation not Local. That way we know when a fleet is in our area but not where it is. Or when hostiles are in our area but not where they are. Some places might have 1,000+ in constellation chat but you can always just make them not register until they talk...maybe...I don't know... --- Put in space whales!
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.13 00:15:00 - [38] Edited by: Elmicker on 13/09/2007 00:15:42 Originally by: Akita T Would you please kindly link to the part of the backstory that says every pilot in the system automatically broadcasts his presence to everybody else in the same system ? Not quite exact... However, every pilot is connected to a universal internet. If you're clutching at straws for arguments against convenient intel, you may aswell allow the counter argument to similarly clutch at straws for arguments to explain it. S'only fair. Though again, i'd like to ask why anyone would want to remove local. It doesn't benefit anyone at all. All it results in is more timesinks.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.13 08:54:00 - [39] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Nicho Void Seems to me like both sides would still be on equal footing The attacking force is, by its very nature, at an advantage when searching out a defender via any player-controlled method. And.. erm.. Why do you want to work for your intel? Timesinks ftl. It's not that big of advantage if any at all, defending force still has his scanner and attacking force still has to find his target. So if you jump randomly to a belt you only have a small chance that you will find him, but if you try to scan him then he is also able to scan you. And speaking about advantages, you don't see any towards defending player the way its working right now?? Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 13/09/2007 00:15:42 Originally by: Akita T Would you please kindly link to the part of the backstory that says every pilot in the system automatically broadcasts his presence to everybody else in the same system ? Not quite exact... However, every pilot is connected to a universal internet. If you're clutching at straws for arguments against convenient intel, you may aswell allow the counter argument to similarly clutch at straws for arguments to explain it. S'only fair. Though again, i'd like to ask why anyone would want to remove local. It doesn't benefit anyone at all. All it results in is more timesinks. If you like to talk about arguments so much then please present at least one viable one in favor of keeping local the way its now? What we're really hearing now from ppl against removing local is: Don't Nobody will benefit from it (Yet nobody cared to explain how 'I won't benefit from them not being able to know I just jumped into the system') Please don't ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Grunanca Fusion Mercenaries Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:00:00 - [40] Imagine a merc corp having a contract on a person... Now you use locator agents and find his system, then you look in local to see if he is still there when you arrive, if not you chek sorrounding systems. This should take less than 5 minutes and you can then move on. If loccal was not there, you would have to chek all stations and probe for hours just to chek ONE system... Wouldnt work...
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:03:00 - [41] Originally by: Rake Mizar Ah this old chestnut... Why local can't give you a real-time count of people in the system without identifying them unless they speak is my question. This wouldn't make it impossible to figure out if you have a potential hostile in system, but it would take more work than current which is zero. Answer: Because in 0.0 it is forbidden to speak in local. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and
Sfatia	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:13:00 - [42] Edited by: Sfatia on 13/09/2007 09:15:55 Locator agent could tell u where exactly he is like belt V-6 in system X! maybe what ship too? maybe locator agent then informs the requested person say 5 minutes later that it was done a search for him,if both hunter and hunted are close, if not, the time before agent informs the hunted, can be counted by jumps the hunter would need (dont need to be exact)so the hunter gets a chance to actually be there before agent informs the hunted.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.13 09:21:00 - [43] Originally by: Grunanca Imagine a merc corp having a contract on a person... Now you use locator agents and find his system, then you look in local to see if he is still there when you arrive, if not you chek sorrounding systems. This should take less than 5 minutes and you can then move on. If loccal was not there, you would have to chek all stations and probe for hours just to chek ONE system... Wouldnt work... Imagine that you are not alone in the universe and somebody actually bothers to fly with you. Now imagine you got a corpmate asking locator agents and you and your merry crew go to a system where the guy is supposed to be. When you get there your friend can just ask again if he is still in the system and BAM you're right there with the current situation (having local on). You still have to scan/look for the guy just as you'd have to if local was present and if you want to know if the guy left the system then just cover the gates, nobody said that bounty hunting should be easy. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Slazia Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.09.13 10:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Khan Soriano Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Nicho Void What we're really hearing now from ppl against removing local is: Don't Nobody will benefit from it (Yet nobody cared to explain how 'I won't benefit from them not being able to know I just jumped into the system') Please don't Removing local is fine, but something else would need to replace it. New equipment, skills, sensors etc. If we just removed local without making any other changes I doubt it would be as much interest. How about trying it out yourself, close local and try playing (perhaps use an alt so as not to risk your main). Fly around 0.0 and try to track people down. The game world is too big; warfare would become a series of random encounters instead of planned tactical operations. Mission, miners and ratters would have to constantly hit æscanÆ every 5 seconds just in case someone is warping towards themà.
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.13 10:01:00 - [45] Edited by: Tzrailasa on 13/09/2007 10:05:16 Originally by: Khan Soriano Originally by: Saint Luka Would simply destroy the game for alot of people except carebears (yes thats right.) Pirates/hunters would waste several hours to the point of bordem and /wrist or quit. Have you ever pirated yourself because from what you've said I'm pretty sure you are talking about a subject you have no experience with? Why would pirates quit the game? One of their more useful tools would still be in the game (statistics->show pilots in space). I don't need some stupid local chat to tell me if anyone is in the system because I have to scan anyway to know who is doing what and what prey is available to me. How is current situation better for pirates? I enter the system, spot 5 people on local, they do the same and warp to POS. I still got nothing to catch and I'm bored too but you don't see me quitting the game do you?!?!?! But if we turn local I might get lucky because one of them got****y and didn't spam the scanner. While I sometimes wish for local to disappear, I don't think your scenario is correct, since you ignore what most peoples reaction to having no local (with no other changes) would be. In my experience, people in EVE are generally so risk-aware that they'll immediately see that without local, the 'cost' of ratting in 0.0 (ie. lost ships) would go way up. At this point, they'd move their moneymaking to L4 missioning in empire which already (imho) pays better than ratting anyway. So, the 5 people in local you had before a local nerf would be 1 after a local nerf, and that one guy would be looking for targets to kill just like yourself. So, we're back to the boredom, /wrist or quit.... --- A simple removal of local would not be usable as the effort of spamming scan every 2-5 seconds is simply too much to be realistic. What would be needed if local is removed, is something like an on-screen 'radar screen' instead, with about the same range as the current scanner, which could show you when ships come close to you (it should NOT help pinpoint the location of the ships). That would still require the hunted to be alert (watch the radar and be aligned), but he wouldn't need to constantly spam the scan button. For the hunter the advantage would be that he wouldn't be revealed the moment he jumps into system. Note: This idea still needs polishing, but what is essential to any solution that it favors both parties, both the hunter and the hunted. Just removing local massively favors only the hunter and thus would never work. My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.*
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.13 10:53:00 - [46] Originally by: Slazia Removing local is fine, but something else would need to replace it. New equipment, skills, sensors etc. If we just removed local without making any other changes I doubt it would be as much interest. How about trying it out yourself, close local and try playing (perhaps use an alt so as not to risk your main). Fly around 0.0 and try to track people down. The game world is too big; warfare would become a series of random encounters instead of planned tactical operations. Mission, miners and ratters would have to constantly hit æscanÆ every 5 seconds just in case someone is warping towards themà. Removing local is worst possible idea. It will just add boredom to the game. Replacement it with equipment is not option. We do not have spare slots on our ships Replacement it with equipment is not option too. Current local is near perfect. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2007.09.13 10:59:00 - [47] guys ... honestly ... cpp utterly failed with their WTZ change ... do you honestly think they would simply remove local now??? a shame for the game IMO but bleh ... Money is all that counts in this world ... and with only the 0.0 crowd eve wouldnt be here anymore (ccp would be bankrupt) ... we need the carebears cuz they are simply financing the possibility of 0.0 warfare who was it from the ccp staff who said they are actually catering for WoW players ... with this attitude dont expect a harsh, cold cruel world anymore! The dream is gone, I woke up when they released Rev. 1.0. From that point on it was clear that this game has left its hardcore vision behind. live with it Greetings Grim
Xoria Krint The Movement	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:02:00 - [48] Remove it and make Eve what its suppose to be.. Eve's difficult today: Medium Back in the days: Ultra Hard If they remove local: Hard And I like it hard - My Movies
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:03:00 - [49] Originally by: Zixxa Current local is near perfect. No, it isn't, for exactly the same reason that 'no local' would be bad too. The reason is that it massively favors one group of players, in this case the hunted. Same problem as 'no local' except favoring the other group. The main thing that's bad with local as it is, is that it gives 100% accurate and immediate information at no effort. A middle solution needs to be found... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Case Micoud	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:08:00 - [50] Edited by: Case Micoud on 13/09/2007 11:13:22 A simple idea would be to delay local for 30-60 seconds. Gives time for the attacker to find the ratter if he is quick. The ratter can still escape if he is aligned... Another idea would be to make people visible in local in relation to the alliance that has sovreignity and the level of sovreignity in a particular system. So if my alliance has full sovreignity in a system I see everyone in local as soon as he enters. Then as sovreignity lvl goes down, the delay on local goes up. Further I would make players with cov op cloak fitted ships invisible in local. Just some ideas. Edit: In low sec you would actually have to have good standing with the sovreign npc alliance.
Raneru Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:16:00 - [51] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Show me how MANY are in local but don't show me WHO is in local please. That would be a good start. Agreed. It should be like alliance chat so you dont appear until you say something (should be like this for constellation and region channels also). It would a great incentive to not smack people in local as well
Meyha Jusime	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:19:00 - [52] Edited by: Meyha Jusime on 13/09/2007 11:19:22 The 5th trillion omgwtftheresstilllocal bs-thread...if you cant live with it nor get easy ganks go and play WOW ffs
Xoria Krint The Movement	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:19:00 - [53] Originally by: Meyha Jusime The 5th trillion omgwtftheresstilllocal bs-thread...if you cant live with it nor get easy ganks go and play wow ffs Haha.. Can I have him? cuddle - My Movies
Jade190	Posted - 2007.09.13 11:49:00 - [54] Originally by: Zeke Novak Posting here to counteract the vocal minority who want local removed. It works quite well as it is, whiners who can't gank as easily as they like be damned. Agreed. Everyone needs to STFU and play the game
Needo Minmatar Swedish Academy	Posted - 2007.09.13 12:04:00 - [55] Edited by: Needo on 13/09/2007 12:06:07 I kinda like the idea that you can turn your comm-relay off -> you dont show up on local, you cannot read local or any other chat channel. If this would be implemented you would need a signature count in the scanner window (ie total nr of pilots in the system). The biggest impact would prolly be that it would be near impossible for alliances to know if there are cloakers in a busy system, so if this was implemented it would actually make sense to be able to probe down inactive cloakers somehow. Edit: you could also add a sec hit for having comm-relay offline in empire space? ___________________________________________ You are never alone in schizophrenia. ___________________________________________
William Alex Viscosity	Posted - 2007.09.13 12:04:00 - [56] Originally by: Ed Gein Oveur already said they plan on removing it at some point and replacing it some game mechanic at some point..... I am assuming no one watched him speak on the alliance tournament in this thread. I've also been told that Jove would be playable someday.
Raven DeBlade Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.09.13 12:08:00 - [57] Make Cov Ops pilots/ships dissapear in local when they cloak. "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees"
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:13:00 - [58] Edited by: Princess Jodi on 13/09/2007 15:15:45 Drizit, you're post exemplifies the exact one-sided mindset of those who want local removed so perfectly, I just had to quote it and pick it apart: Originally by: Drizit I agree that local should show only how many are in the local system and not who they are. The same as 'show pilots' in the map, it indicates only how busy a system is. If I drive into your town, does a big balloon go up with my name on it so everyone knows I am there? Then why should it do so in the game? Yes, actually, there is a big balloon. You're showing up on all kinds of monitoring systems, and if you actually did something like stopped for Gas and a Coke and paid with a Credit Card you'd be surprised at how much information is gathered on you. Certainly a stargate which let you in would know alot about you. Originally by: Drizit I worked in a gatehouse and sensors at the gates calculated how many people were on site but not who they were. In an evacuation, I needed only to count heads to make sure everyone was out. So...If someone wants to do anything like mine or rat, they need to only do so in a completely empty system? Cuz you realize that friendlies won't show up either. I can see a system with 20 people from 5 different allied corps all cowering in safe spots because they don't know the whole system is freindly. Originally by: Drizit This system should be in place in local so that activities like Covops are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Having my name splashed across local takes the Covert out of Covert ops. It won't be a game breaker except for those who are too lazy to use a scanner. No more 'dock when a hostile enters local' so PVP combat actually happens. Players will adapt the same as they did with WTZ. You've tipped your hand here: You like it cuz you fly a Covert Ops, so all you ever really want to do is remain hidden. Did you ever consider that there are others who would like to actually play as well? Like miners, industralists, ratters, mission runners and fleet battles? And your answer is 'use the scanner.' So you expect everone in Eve to be pressing a button every few seconds to protect themselves from you? No thanks, I'll look at local every few seconds instead. Easier on the mouse finger. Originally by: Drizit It won't be all good for pirates either. They won't know if it's new prey entering or bounty hunters coming to gank them. War decced station huggers won't know if they should zoom off to the safety of the station because it's a hostile or stay in the belt cos it's a neutral. Great...so no one will know anything about the tactical situation, no instant analysis of Friend-Foe-Neutrals, no real idea if a 100-man fleet jumped in during the last 10 seconds since you scanned? Oh wait...Lag would tell us that, and CCP seems to be consistent in implementing the Lag feature. Removing local is the WORST idea I have ever heard about in Eve. I'm afraid those making arguments to do so are completly one-sided.
veritas primus	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:40:00 - [59] Please remove local CCP and finish this games downward spiral to the pits of hell that it has become. The transition will then be complete.
Yorick Downe	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:52:00 - [60] Originally by: Nicho Void Originally by: vipeer As Oveur said himself a big problem of Eve is that you may have 700 ppl in the system that cannot see each other at all in most cases. Local chat partly alleviates that problem. As has been pointed out, during the Alliance tournament, Oveur stated that local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat. Either Oveur is contradicting himself, or one of us has misinformation. I know my source was recorded. He said both things, and he said even more - that sitting there having to hit the "Scan" button once a second is neither fun nor particularly immersive. We got these kitted-out high-tech spaceships, and they can't automate a scan? What I take away from it is this. Oveur and the CCP EvE team are aware that: - There's a need to see at a glance how many people are in system, to foster community, as you can't see them "run past you" as you can in ground-based MMOs - There's a need to not see at a glance how many people are in system, so you don't have "free intel" - The scanner's interface is a micro-managed abomination and needs some serious lovin What all of that boils down to, I think, is really just that CCP is aware that scanning and local is an issue, that there are conflicting requirements, and that more thinking is needed before a solution that works has been found. I'm sure they have ideas, but I'm equally sure we won't hear about them until they know what they're doing. Read Oveur's last blog on new T2 ships -- "now I can tell you because now we know ourselves". This also means there's an opportunity here for people to come up with really good design ideas to resolve the apparently conflicting requirements. Off the cuff, exploring the idea that "no intel" is more important in certain systems while "socializing" is more important in others seems an avenue worth exploring. The 4th dimension is also an idea to take into account. Ideally, someone will come up w/ a brilliant idea that no one has thought of so far, will get heard, and CCP will make things oh so much better :). As a combat pilot, I'd be ecstatic if both the scanner and local got much loving. No free intel + a scanner that doesn't need microsecond micromanagement == fiesta on the bridge.
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.09.13 15:59:00 - [61] Originally by: Khan Soriano Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Nicho Void Seems to me like both sides would still be on equal footing The attacking force is, by its very nature, at an advantage when searching out a defender via any player-controlled method. And.. erm.. Why do you want to work for your intel? Timesinks ftl. It's not that big of advantage if any at all, defending force still has his scanner and attacking force still has to find his target. So if you jump randomly to a belt you only have a small chance that you will find him, but if you try to scan him then he is also able to scan you. And speaking about advantages, you don't see any towards defending player the way its working right now?? Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 13/09/2007 00:15:42 Originally by: Akita T Would you please kindly link to the part of the backstory that says every pilot in the system automatically broadcasts his presence to everybody else in the same system ? Not quite exact... However, every pilot is connected to a universal internet. If you're clutching at straws for arguments against convenient intel, you may aswell allow the counter argument to similarly clutch at straws for arguments to explain it. S'only fair. Though again, i'd like to ask why anyone would want to remove local. It doesn't benefit anyone at all. All it results in is more timesinks. If you like to talk about arguments so much then please present at least one viable one in favor of keeping local the way its now? What we're really hearing now from ppl against removing local is: Don't Nobody will benefit from it (Yet nobody cared to explain how 'I won't benefit from them not being able to know I just jumped into the system') Please don't In the first quote he meant that the hunter has the natural advantage because they are fit to destroy the hunted. The hunted are only trying escape (in most situations). This is a similar concept to Gank > Tank overall. Hunter vs Hunted: Hunter catches Hunted = Hunted loses ship (ISK) Hunted escapes Hunter = Tie (both ships survive) Tank vs Gank: Even = Tie + Gank = Tank ship dies (lost ISK) + Tank = Gank ship flies away / Tie For your second part: Elmicker's argument- Attaining your own "local" intel all the time everytime would be an annoying time sink. Other arguments- Pilots looking for PVP will miss each other/take longer to travel so less PVP will happen. Personally I think removing local could work if other game mechanics were introduced to facilitate the change. I liked the idea of hacker ships that could broadcast intel to their corp or alliance, maybe make it so enemies know they are being compromised. That way more PVP would happen at gates and hopefully more often. Either way, so many variables are involved I think it's premature for anyone to claim to KNOW how the outcome would play out. I think a test on the test server would be interesting before implementing it to give people a taste. Hopefully that clarifies other posters positions and helps you not to misconstrue their posts in the future. That way you can be more constructive to the discussion. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:03:00 - [62] I'd be happy if Cov Ops pilots didn't appear in local, tbh.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:06:00 - [63] Sure, you could take out local; but I want to be able to right-click and warp to 0 when I see your ugly mug on my local character list.
Eemaavi Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:11:00 - [64] WOOHOO YET ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT LOCAL I'm in the Remove it camp.....Let us know when there are gate activations and thats it. Yeah I'm an Alt- Go cry elswhere
Selena 001	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:25:00 - [65] EVE is all about the gank. CCP promote the gank. If theres a way to make the gank less consentual without 'unbalancing' any ship/mod statistics... guess whats gonna happen? ___________ NATIONAL SARCASM DAY!!
Miss Mickey	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:30:00 - [66] To me this just seems like the gankers/pirates/whatevers want local removed so that it's easier to gank people. More often than not, the people they are ganking are ratters or miners. So basically, they want an easier way to farm PvE'rs. However, if local is removed, then something will have to be put in place to allow those PvE'rs to have even the slightest chance to avoid being ganked. For a start, there'd need to be a way to detect cloaked ships, since recons and cov-ops can warp cloaked, scanner won't do. So now all cloaked ships can be detected. Fantastic! Next, scanner would need to be system wide (and not just 14AU) since 20AU probes could land you onto a ratting BS and you'll be in warp by the time he sees you on scanner leaving him no time to warp out. So basically, if local IS removed, there will still be a replacement tool which instead of just looking at local list, will require pressing a button or two. However, it won't make ganking any easier. Only ppl not paying attention or afk will die, which already happens anyway. However, since there's no local it will also require work on the part of the hunter and since the system is likely to be a "if i can see you you can see me" system, nothing will change really. Except there might be fewer miners and ratters around, which ultimately will drive prices up.
Donathan Slade Kay Korporation Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.13 16:56:00 - [67] Local has been the way this game has been for years. To remove it would be to remove the very way people find roaming gangs and fights. Think about it this way. Airplanes all broadcast an ID signature, ok, so we can scan using the scanner. But, if we don't display who is in local, how can we know who is friendly. I could warp into a area with 20 guys who could all be friendly and never know if they were 20 friendlies or 20 hostiles waiting to gank me. It local is removed, a practical part of the games "intel" will be gone. Yes, 0.0 ratters and miners will be even harder because somebody could warp in and catch you and you didn't even know they were there. ESEPCIALLY if they warped over cloaked, locked you down, and then had their out of scan range gang warp in. I like to think of Local as a long range radar, "something" is there, you just don't know what except for friendly, neutral, or hostile.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.14 08:42:00 - [68] Originally by: Donathan Slade Local has been the way this game has been for years. To remove it would be to remove the very way people find roaming gangs and fights. Don't want to burst your bubble but WTZ was also in this game forever and it defined the way people travel (believe me its much more used 'feature' than finding people/fights). Nothing is set in stone and everything can be changed, discussion is what gives us a chance to make those changes good for everyone. Originally by: Donathan Slade Think about it this way. Airplanes all broadcast an ID signature, ok, so we can scan using the scanner. But, if we don't display who is in local, how can we know who is friendly. I could warp into a area with 20 guys who could all be friendly and never know if they were 20 friendlies or 20 hostiles waiting to gank me. First of all a plane can choose if he broadcasts the signal or not, to put it bluntly remember all those 'unidentified planes' in movies? You know what could tell you if they are friendly or not? INTEL!!!! That whats scouts are for!! Originally by: Donathan Slade It local is removed, a practical part of the games "intel" will be gone. Yes, 0.0 ratters and miners will be even harder because somebody could warp in and catch you and you didn't even know they were there. ESEPCIALLY if they warped over cloaked, locked you down, and then had their out of scan range gang warp in. I really really don't know how your logic worked to figure out that more intel is less intel. As for poor poor ratters: they would know it if the change to local meant that only number of people was displayed and not their names. To work out who was it that jumped into system they would have to use a scout (more intel), ask alliance chat if anyone seen somebody pass (more intel) or risk getting ganked. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Andrahkon UNITED STARS ORGANISATION	Posted - 2007.09.14 09:15:00 - [69] Edited by: Andrahkon on 14/09/2007 09:17:13 Originally by: Khan Soriano As for poor poor ratters: they would know it if the change to local meant that only number of people was displayed and not their names. To work out who was it that jumped into system they would have to use a scout (more intel), ask alliance chat if anyone seen somebody pass (more intel) or risk getting ganked. Thats not the point if ratters or not, if you only see number changing you never know if its a hostile or not. So say you have claimed space where the crowd is doing the business. I as hostile gang would send all some minutes 1 or 2 m8 to the target-system so noone is paying attention to that because theres always number-changes of the own m8s flying around. That means i easily can bring in 5-10 hostiles Now you say every change has to be checked? Huu..so youre willing to sit the whole day there and check evere local-number change to protect the rest of the ally or m8s? Booooring like hell for the guy who has to do it...after some days for sure theres noone willing to do the job. And if theres always some1 who do the job..the time to do it is too short, except you have a deadend where you can place the guy right @ the gate so he dont have to move. So in the end its only an attacker/pirat advantage... ------------------------------------------------------------- Selling Carrier with fuel and Mods - preorders accepted
Khes	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:06:00 - [70] Im pro local as it is now but it would not be impossible that I could change my mind if someone came up with a good alternative. Just removing local as it is with no replacement what so ever would just not work and those who think so should try and think just a little bit further then their own nose. So untill someone comes up with a working alternative that would benefit ALL playstyles (or at least not totaly nerf some playstyles), KEEP LOCAL!
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:20:00 - [71] Local changes are coming with the post revelations expansion: Buddha Q3 '08. You heard it here first. copy and paste this to ten ppl and you will get a kiss from your sweety ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ___ Support Killmail Overhaul
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:24:00 - [72] No one who just wants to straight remove local has any interest in actually improving the game, because they never suggest anything remotely approaching appropriate replacement tools. I was going to write a post about a sensible way to do it, but I realized that my proposed solution's second point is still actually slightly better then local is: Quote: Secondly, local would be replaced partially with a counter which would indicate the ratio of alliance/friendly and neutral/hostile ships in system. This would be "friendly sensor beacons" vs "no sensor/unidentified sensor beacons". There is no way to do it - every complete removal is just "make ganks easy at the cost of everything else and eventually the game anyway". The only sensible cause is to try and create a situation where people don't immediately go safe when a hostile appears in local/on the counter/etc. To an extent, I think adding an ability for ships to refit independently in space would be a decent option because people would actually stay and fight gankers. Let people flip to a web and a point on a ratting ship, and any potential ganker is committed to the fight.
Red Desire	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:47:00 - [73] REMOVE LOCAL !!!!! but replace it with something that will give the ratters,miners,etc a chance to see when a hostile is approaching without scanning every 3 seconds. I have only one suggestion, special skill -> from scanning you will be able to identify the pilot flying the ship also.. new probes,new database which registers all ships modulating engine signals( which we all know they're like fingerprints) - so after a scan you know who is hostile and who not But come one guys, it sux : - We have scripts who log you off the moment someone jumps in the system - It makes the game look dumb !!! - It's a tool to get information??? You need to put some work into it to get some info Also increase the ISK per hour in 0.0 ( certain areas), but increase it a lot, it's absurd to make LOTS of ISK in 0.8-0.9 systems beside trading!
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:48:00 - [74] Originally by: Andrahkon Thats not the point if ratters or not, if you only see number changing you never know if its a hostile or not. So say you have claimed space where the crowd is doing the business. I as hostile gang would send all some minutes 1 or 2 m8 to the target-system so noone is paying attention to that because theres always number-changes of the own m8s flying around. That means i easily can bring in 5-10 hostiles I don't know why you should know, just like that, if somebody that came in is hostile or not. Ok so you've managed to get your gang of 5-10 to 0.0 unnoticed, big deal. What now? The second somebody spots you on their scanner or meets you at the gate everything becomes the same as local was present. But now information about it was gathered in some way not given out just because your gang passed a system with lone ratter inside. Originally by: Andrahkon So in the end its only an attacker/pirat advantage...and unbalanced And now its unbalanced toward the defender, but this seems to be ok in your book?? Please also note that the situation of ratters wouldn't be so helpless as you try to put it, not being shown on local works both ways so the attacker also doesn't know who lurks in there. Baiting would be a viable tactic since the attacker wouldn't know if single Megathron on belt belongs to experienced PVP pilot (yes you can tell it by just looking at their employment history) or a newbie NPCer. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Andrahkon UNITED STARS ORGANISATION	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:19:00 - [75] Edited by: Andrahkon on 14/09/2007 11:19:46 Originally by: Khan Soriano And now its unbalanced toward the defender, but this seems to be ok in your book?? Please also note that the situation of ratters wouldn't be so helpless as you try to put it, not being shown on local works both ways so the attacker also doesn't know who lurks in there. Baiting would be a viable tactic since the attacker wouldn't know if single Megathron on belt belongs to experienced PVP pilot (yes you can tell it by just looking at their employment history) or a newbie NPCer. I understand your point but what you do isnt an objective discussion youre arguing for your playstyle and not for improving the game. And to your points...@ the moment the attacker has an advantage over the defender or better over ratters/miners because you need 1 ressource to do the business thats your pvp fitted ship. The miner and ratter is fitted to kill rats or roids and not for pvp so he always need a 2nd ressource to backup his business. Now if you remove local you have always to search for backup if you want to do your business what means no backup no business or no backup your dead or why should i rat/mine a day and @the end of the day i get blown up..so the playstyle of them is waste of time and money I dont argue for the one or other side im not in 0.0 atm but as it shows to me all who wants the local removed are only after more easy ganks thats all ------------------------------------------------------------- Selling Carrier with fuel and Mods - preorders accepted
Khes	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:35:00 - [76] Edited by: Khes on 14/09/2007 11:41:44 Edited by: Khes on 14/09/2007 11:39:13 Originally by: Khan Soriano Originally by: Andrahkon And now its unbalanced toward the defender, but this seems to be ok in your book?? If anything, defence should be slightly favored over agression unless you want the game go totaly nuts and chaotic where everyone constantly attacked everyone like a complete universal wide deathmatch on stereoids (though I belive some would love that) Aggression should in my book be saved for planning the right place at the right time in the right situation and not somthing you do everywhere all the time just because it is allways better to attack then defend if you know what I mean.
StellarSheep Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:56:00 - [77] Remove local in 0.0 and use constelation chat. With that u can see if there is any hostile in your constelation but u dont know where exactly. It`s in my opinion fair trade for both pvps and pves. ________________________________________________ StellarSheep
Arkyk	Posted - 2007.09.14 12:55:00 - [78] Originally by: Tobizuru As I see it when you see a person in Local it means that their "com-links" are online and public. So if you were to shut off your own public communications it would render you hidden to the rest of the system but at the same time you wouldn't know who else is in the system, who is coming in and out and so on. Just somethin' that I thought about when reading the subject. This is an interesting idea. Kinda reminds me of that old mech game where you could choose between active and passive scanning . . . ---------------- Mostly harmless.
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.14 12:59:00 - [79] Edited by: Tzrailasa on 14/09/2007 13:04:36 Originally by: StellarSheep Remove local in 0.0 and use constelation chat. With that u can see if there is any hostile in your constelation but u dont know where exactly. It`s in my opinion fair trade for both pvps and pves. Except that NOBODY (or very few) would PvE...... Compare to today: Knowing local is friendly: People PvE Not knowing: People cloak at safespot Why should that behavior change if the top option is completely removed? While I have at times cursed local to hell for revealing me, I don't really see any good replacements... Any system replacing it has to strike a balance between the PvE'er and the PvP'er. All the suggestions in this thread massively favor either one or the other. Current local is a reasonably fair compromise. People PvE'ing and paying attention don't get ganked, people not paying attention get ganked. Especially the complete and stupid ignorance of the 'remove-local' crowd continues to amaze me. Tell me again... Why is it exactly that the people you're hunting will still be stupidly doing their PvE after a local nerf when they have no way of avoiding getting killed (apart from pressing 'scan' every 2 seconds for hours on end)? PvE'ers can count ISK just as well as anyone else.... If they go from a reasonable risk to a no-defence-but-pressing-scan-every-2-seconds risk scenario, they'll not be there! They'll be in empire doing L4's.... For there to be targets to hunt in 0.0, activities there has to be relative low-risk, since otherwise people won't be doing them! A lot of people in this thread seem to have great difficulty grasping this truth... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Nakirash	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:03:00 - [80] Originally by: Arkyk Originally by: Tobizuru As I see it when you see a person in Local it means that their "com-links" are online and public. So if you were to shut off your own public communications it would render you hidden to the rest of the system but at the same time you wouldn't know who else is in the system, who is coming in and out and so on. Just somethin' that I thought about when reading the subject. This is an interesting idea. Kinda reminds me of that old mech game where you could choose between active and passive scanning . . . One person in gang having com-links on, 10 having it off..... Idea broken....
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:12:00 - [81] Originally by: Tzrailasa For there to be targets to hunt in 0.0, activities there has to be relative low-risk, since otherwise people won't be doing them! Quoted for truth. A ratting battleship (T1) is about a 40m ISK investment after insurance. People are not going to rat to go from one ratting battleship to another.
Cheese999 Minmatar Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:19:00 - [82] Originally by: Nakirash Originally by: Arkyk Originally by: Tobizuru As I see it when you see a person in Local it means that their "com-links" are online and public. So if you were to shut off your own public communications it would render you hidden to the rest of the system but at the same time you wouldn't know who else is in the system, who is coming in and out and so on. Just somethin' that I thought about when reading the subject. This is an interesting idea. Kinda reminds me of that old mech game where you could choose between active and passive scanning . . . One person in gang having com-links on, 10 having it off..... Idea broken.... How is it broken? Its no different to scouting with n00b alts. ----- There is no Spoon Minmatar: Bending over for Tux since RmR Originally by: Outa Rileau bring a nosdomi to a fleet, and your fc will most likely call you primary.
Nakirash	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:27:00 - [83] Originally by: Cheese999 Originally by: Nakirash Originally by: Arkyk <removed for clarity> One person in gang having com-links on, 10 having it off..... Idea broken.... How is it broken? Its no different to scouting with n00b alts. This part of the Tobi's suggestion is broken, because it wouldn't be true: Quote: ...but at the same time you wouldn't know who else is in the system, who is coming in and out and so on.
Arkyk	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:32:00 - [84] Originally by: Nakirash Originally by: Arkyk Originally by: Tobizuru As I see it when you see a person in Local it means that their "com-links" are online and public. So if you were to shut off your own public communications it would render you hidden to the rest of the system but at the same time you wouldn't know who else is in the system, who is coming in and out and so on. Just somethin' that I thought about when reading the subject. This is an interesting idea. Kinda reminds me of that old mech game where you could choose between active and passive scanning . . . One person in gang having com-links on, 10 having it off..... Idea broken.... Not really. If you're mining with local turned on, and you see a hostile appear in local, assume there might be more and beat a hasty retreat. Or just turn local off, and then the scout for the group won't be able to see you anyway. ---------------- Mostly harmless.
Nakirash	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:38:00 - [85] Originally by: Arkyk <see above> Not really. If you're mining with local turned on, and you see a hostile appear in local, assume there might be more and beat a hasty retreat. Or just turn local off, and then the scout for the group won't be able to see you anyway. It would still give way too big an advantage to the attacker.... Scout jumps in.... comms off... Warp to each belt in turn (cloaked)... Target found (who has NO chance of seeing them) Rest of gang jumps in.... comms off... Warp to scout, kill target Absolutely NO chance for target... In other words, he'd never have been there in the first place since he'd KNOW he wouldn't have a chance.
Arkyk	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:40:00 - [86] Originally by: Nakirash Originally by: Arkyk <see above> Not really. If you're mining with local turned on, and you see a hostile appear in local, assume there might be more and beat a hasty retreat. Or just turn local off, and then the scout for the group won't be able to see you anyway. It would still give way too big an advantage to the attacker.... Scout jumps in.... comms off... Warp to each belt in turn (cloaked)... Target found (who has NO chance of seeing them) Rest of gang jumps in.... comms off... Warp to scout, kill target Absolutely NO chance for target... In other words, he'd never have been there in the first place since he'd KNOW he wouldn't have a chance. A valid complaint, but that's a different issue from having one person "scout" with their comm on. ---------------- Mostly harmless.
Tenerhaddi Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:47:00 - [87] Edited by: Tenerhaddi on 14/09/2007 13:56:33 Originally by: theteck the local its important tactical information yer and it shouldn't be! should be set like Alliance show when you chat. When you don't know body knows! I mean it wouldn't kill EVE FFS just makes it more interesting! Ok here an Idea! If you have local but nobody talk then we cant see each other until we say something right. Now with this Sov system we have why dont we have Scanners in system at POS to warn Friendly's of Hostile's in the area. I mean If you have a pos near a gate have a scanner in range. Hostile jumps in and in your chat window message shows saying Warning Hostile incoming or something. If a mining party in a 0.0 system and doesn't have a sov then they have to have scouts! at he gates! Remove easy intel and make covo op harder! 0.0 should be harder. Also Only way that these ratters to be safe is to have risk but good isk for it! simple more tools for POS I think ---------------- http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556
Nakirash	Posted - 2007.09.14 13:50:00 - [88] Originally by: Arkyk ... A valid complaint, but that's a different issue from having one person "scout" with their comm on. See post #83 why it was broken....
Tenerhaddi Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:00:00 - [89] Originally by: Nakirash Originally by: Arkyk <see above> Not really. If you're mining with local turned on, and you see a hostile appear in local, assume there might be more and beat a hasty retreat. Or just turn local off, and then the scout for the group won't be able to see you anyway. It would still give way too big an advantage to the attacker.... Scout jumps in.... comms off... Warp to each belt in turn (cloaked)... Target found (who has NO chance of seeing them) Rest of gang jumps in.... comms off... Warp to scout, kill target Absolutely NO chance for target... In other words, he'd never have been there in the first place since he'd KNOW he wouldn't have a chance. then good its 0.0! there ratter I come across just log off when someone jumps in! and if you stay in that system that ratter just log on and then off if they see you! Log off will be dead when local off! 0.0 is dangerous cant handle it then dont go to 0.0. After all CCP is promoting team work so no solo unless your propared to take the risk ---------------- http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556
Nakirash	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:08:00 - [90] Originally by: Tzrailasa Ehem, Nakirash is my scouting alt (which the forum somehow had reset to being default posting char). I thought it best to continue that thread on that char... Confirm...
Fehz	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:14:00 - [91] here's a scenario i just went through last night while ratting in my raven in 0.0 w/o a cloak. I have about 30 safe spots instead. They bring in a covert ops ship and he keeps launching scan probes and warping to where he thinks i am.. i've already ping-ponged to the next safe spot. He finds a few more.. then he picks one and sits at it for a while.. I pong back to it eventually.. He now knows that that is one of my safe spots. He calls in 10 friends.. They were stupid and only put one at the safe spot of mine they now know of. I warp in and am 40km from the guy and warp away in time.. he didn't even target me for 10 or so seconds or I'd be dead. So, local doesn't help all that much, but it is a valuable tool. in the end, i was forced to log.. Then they added me to their address book and they keep coming back whenever I log in. If anything, they should make people approve being added to someone address book. We can't make everything in this game work to the pirates' advantage.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:24:00 - [92] Originally by: Fehz here's a scenario i just went through last night while ratting in my raven in 0.0 w/o a cloak. I have about 30 safe spots instead. They bring in a covert ops ship and he keeps launching scan probes and warping to where he thinks i am.. i've already ping-ponged to the next safe spot. He finds a few more.. then he picks one and sits at it for a while.. I pong back to it eventually.. He now knows that that is one of my safe spots. He calls in 10 friends.. They were stupid and only put one at the safe spot of mine they now know of. I warp in and am 40km from the guy and warp away in time.. he didn't even target me for 10 or so seconds or I'd be dead. So, local doesn't help all that much, but it is a valuable tool. in the end, i was forced to log.. Then they added me to their address book and they keep coming back whenever I log in. If anything, they should make people approve being added to someone address book. We can't make everything in this game work to the pirates' advantage. Forced to log? did Dr. Claw come in and turn on the laser and you said "I'll Never Talk Claw" and he replies "No Mr.Fehz I want you to log!" Local Thread 107-b,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:25:00 - [93] Originally by: Miss Mickey To me this just seems like the gankers/pirates/whatevers want local removed so that it's easier to gank people. More often than not, the people they are ganking are ratters or miners. So basically, they want an easier way to farm PvE'rs. However, if local is removed, then something will have to be put in place to allow those PvE'rs to have even the slightest chance to avoid being ganked. For a start, there'd need to be a way to detect cloaked ships, since recons and cov-ops can warp cloaked, scanner won't do. So now all cloaked ships can be detected. Fantastic! Next, scanner would need to be system wide (and not just 14AU) since 20AU probes could land you onto a ratting BS and you'll be in warp by the time he sees you on scanner leaving him no time to warp out. So basically, if local IS removed, there will still be a replacement tool which instead of just looking at local list, will require pressing a button or two. However, it won't make ganking any easier. Only ppl not paying attention or afk will die, which already happens anyway. However, since there's no local it will also require work on the part of the hunter and since the system is likely to be a "if i can see you you can see me" system, nothing will change really. Except there might be fewer miners and ratters around, which ultimately will drive prices up. Provide numbers for your facts or they are merely judged as "gut feeling" statistics Local Thread 107-b,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:31:00 - [94] Agreed Its like sending a spy to a foreign country, and then registering with their embassy to let them know you put a spy in their country. Its just plain silly. ========================= Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:55:00 - [95] Originally by: Captian Internet Originally by: Fehz here's a scenario i just went through last night while ratting in my raven in 0.0 w/o a cloak. I have about 30 safe spots instead. They bring in a covert ops ship and he keeps launching scan probes and warping to where he thinks i am.. i've already ping-ponged to the next safe spot. He finds a few more.. then he picks one and sits at it for a while.. I pong back to it eventually.. He now knows that that is one of my safe spots. He calls in 10 friends.. They were stupid and only put one at the safe spot of mine they now know of. I warp in and am 40km from the guy and warp away in time.. he didn't even target me for 10 or so seconds or I'd be dead. So, local doesn't help all that much, but it is a valuable tool. in the end, i was forced to log.. Then they added me to their address book and they keep coming back whenever I log in. If anything, they should make people approve being added to someone address book. We can't make everything in this game work to the pirates' advantage. Forced to log? did Dr. Claw come in and turn on the laser and you said "I'll Never Talk Claw" and he replies "No Mr.Fehz I want you to log!" That is the funniest thing I've read today. Runner up: :morbid: ___ Support Killmail Overhaul
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:57:00 - [96] Originally by: Fehz here's a scenario i just went through last night while ratting in my raven in 0.0 w/o a cloak. I have about 30 safe spots instead. They bring in a covert ops ship and he keeps launching scan probes and warping to where he thinks i am.. i've already ping-ponged to the next safe spot. He finds a few more.. then he picks one and sits at it for a while.. I pong back to it eventually.. He now knows that that is one of my safe spots. He calls in 10 friends.. They were stupid and only put one at the safe spot of mine they now know of. I warp in and am 40km from the guy and warp away in time.. he didn't even target me for 10 or so seconds or I'd be dead. So, local doesn't help all that much, but it is a valuable tool. in the end, i was forced to log.. Then they added me to their address book and they keep coming back whenever I log in. If anything, they should make people approve being added to someone address book. We can't make everything in this game work to the pirates' advantage. Name features added to this game since Revelations 1 that made this game 'work to the pirates advantage'??? Was it 'warp to zero'? Was it not being able to find players in dynamic complexes, deadspace missions? Was it the increase of hp? ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:05:00 - [97] Im for local nerf if the a new scanner system is included. Without that the loca nerf would be a double edge sword.
Red Desire	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:16:00 - [98] Ok beside nerf local( on which I totally agree) but changed it with some advanced scanning or some gate automatic activations warnings ..etc I offer my support for the nerf buddy list!!! Still a new tool for finding if a player is online or not should be present, but something which takes more skill and time then checking buddy list.
Ozmodan Minmatar Knights Covenant	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:16:00 - [99] You can't remove local without also fixing the cloaking problem. You have to allow cloaked ships to be scanned. Learners permit still current
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:41:00 - [100] We need to boost local 1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview). 2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>". 3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail. 4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically. Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed. The game will be more strategic and clever. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and
Khes	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:44:00 - [101] Edited by: Khes on 14/09/2007 15:46:20 I belive for removing local to work remotly good you have to creat so many other features to replace its impact on intel that it would be so much easyer to just let it be as it is. Removing local would affect to many different factors.
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:44:00 - [102] Originally by: Ozmodan You can't remove local without also fixing the cloaking problem. You have to allow cloaked ships to be scanned. I agree completely, both problems should be resolved together. On another note I'm all about discussion on this topic however I prefer the radical approach But seriously, some propositions are really interesting: 'radar thingy' and automatic scanning could be very fruitful and if DEVs build upon those ideas we might have a system that suits everyone. I like to think that about the final solution to this problem as a minigame for both the hunter and hunted. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:46:00 - [103] Originally by: Zixxa We need to boost local 1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview). 2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>". 3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail. 4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically. Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed. The game will be more strategic and clever. Why not just have stargates auto D'day hostiles and their back up who is waiting on the other side while your at it Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:52:00 - [104] Originally by: Khan Soriano ...automatic scanning... 1) Cover the word "local" with a label 2) Write "Automatic Scanner Readout" on said label 3) ???? 4) Profit.
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:52:00 - [105] Originally by: Zixxa We need to boost local 1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview). 2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>". 3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail. 4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically. Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed. The game will be more strategic and clever. This is just as wrong as the people who cry remove-local-and-all-will-be-well.... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Borasao	Posted - 2007.09.14 15:57:00 - [106] This is so funny... - if local is removed, piwates will have to spend a lot of time per-system scanning it to see if there is even anyone in it for them to attack. This not only slows down how often the pirates will be able to engage others but it will make it extremely time consuming and boring for them. - if local is removed, gate camping will pretty much be the pvp left in the game since scanning takes so long. - if local is removed, the entire pvp part of the game will slow down greatly simply because targets will be harder to find and fights will be further in between. As it is, you can jump into a system, take a look at local and see if the system is empty or has potential targets in it in about 1 second. If no potential targets, move to the next system. If local is removed, this changes to be a bit longer every time you jump into a system because you have to scan a bit before you can write the system off to your satisfaction. Those who want local to go away only think about the offensive side of things... most of them are piwates who are sad because their targets go to ground when they enter a system. Just wait until they're on the defensive side and then there'll be plenty of sadness for them. Not that it'll matter too much because anyone who is actually looking to fight will be hanging around gates so they can see when people come in. Yay! more tedium and boring parts of a game for all!
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.09.14 16:07:00 - [107] Originally by: Tzrailasa Originally by: Zixxa We need to boost local 1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview). 2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>". 3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail. 4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically. Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed. The game will be more strategic and clever. This is just as wrong as the people who cry remove-local-and-all-will-be-well.... I propose reasonable changes. You can do it manually, but for what hell? Let PC makes it for us. Expecially fot young pilots(like you). Long time ago we have local without this funny plus and minus sign. AFAIR, I was one of the pilots proposing to add these signs. Wow, forum ****s screamed that "I am * and *". And what? Now we have these signs and all are happy. Because before, you MUST right click on every damned face in local to find who is who. As additional tool we had been using buddy list to see enemy. It was annoying and boring. I propose absolutely reasonable changes local filtering, local automatical counting and memorizing last ships of local pilots. What is wrong? Nothing. Fleet commander will get better information and fight will be less dependent from the luck or stupid mistakes. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank"** (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and
sharkyballs Amarr Dkiller Delta Force Corp. Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.14 16:23:00 - [108] has anyone else noticed the trend of player's thought processes involving ideas of this nature? whine = nerf = "make my time in game easier". you can't argue with that trend. but then they're argument for the rebuttle givin is some form of "you already have it so easy". it almost sounds like some form of "lets change things cause i'm tired of doing it this way" which is still the same thing as "make my life easier". removing local will make 0.0 population go down except for blobing. where are you're targets now? in empire. now you don't have anything at all to shoot at in the same form that you want it. sharkyballs' thought for the day: hypocracy does not validate a point. it is possible to fix something till it breaks again (you might loosen the joint too much). be very careful of what you ask for.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.14 16:34:00 - [109] Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Tzrailasa Originally by: Zixxa We need to boost local 1. Add possibility to filter local (like in overview). 2. Add to the local "Last seen in <ship type>". 3. Add possibility to send local over ingame mail. 4. Show hostile/friendly/neutral counters automatically. Of course cloaking on non-rpfil ship must be nerfed. The game will be more strategic and clever. This is just as wrong as the people who cry remove-local-and-all-will-be-well.... I propose reasonable changes. You can do it manually, but for what hell? Let PC makes it for us. Expecially fot young pilots(like you). Long time ago we have local without this funny plus and minus sign. AFAIR, I was one of the pilots proposing to add these signs. Wow, forum ****s screamed that "I am * and ***". And what? Now we have these signs and all are happy. Because before, you MUST right click on every damned face in local to find who is who. As additional tool we had been using buddy list to see enemy. It was annoying and boring. I propose absolutely reasonable changes local filtering, local automatical counting and memorizing last ships of local pilots. What is wrong? Nothing. Fleet commander will get better information and fight will be less dependent from the luck or stupid mistakes. What you propose is making the current defensive easy mode into quadriplegic easy mode. Hell if you want ccp to do everything for you why bother playing? Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Cambarus Kissaki Confederation Slammer's Republic	Posted - 2007.09.14 20:36:00 - [110] My thoughts on this: 1)As far as advantages go, I strongly believe that the advantage should always be given to the defender/ratter. The reasons for this are simple: If the advantage is with the attacker then there's really no point in owning space, and if ratting or other forms of carebearing become too dangerous then no one will bother doing it. Or does anyone not know of the current situation of lowsec space? (And all the risk vs rewards whines there are on the subject) Then there's the definition of victory for either side that makes a huge difference. The attacker wins when the defender loses his ship, the defender wins when he does not lose his ship. It costs me nothing to not kill a guy, but if I DO kill him then he loses his ship, and I gain his drops. Because of this I, as an agressor, should have a fairly large disadvantage. Let's say they make it so that neither side has an advantage, that there is roughly a 50% chance of either side coming out successful in this game of cat and mouse. That would mean that for every time someone gets away, they get killed the next time. Is that really fair, in any way, to the defenders? 2)Truth be told I wouldn't mind seeing local removed, but I'd want to see some sort of advantage given back to the defenders. IMO a good comprimise would be a POS mod (not something with huge fitting reqs, but that needs sov lvl 2 or 3) that alerts members of an alliance if there is a hostile in system, or maybe anchorable guns for gates
Sfatia	Posted - 2007.09.15 08:47:00 - [111] Edited by: Sfatia on 15/09/2007 08:49:06 Noone needs local! and it would benefit both the hunters and hunted if u have it replaced with constelation chat. people will still kill npc or mine in 0.0 with maybe a scout or two at constellation entrance who could warn npcer or miners but now theres no need to, because theres local chat and people are aligned and then warp if enemy comes in and + cloak. Anyways who think its fair that a pvper should have the right to pvp with an npcer.. thats not pvp its not fair either and so called pvpers dont come alone to kill ur ratting raven.. no they come in hordes. if u have now constelation chat ur corp/ally see them coming from further out and so they can form a gang to counter gives time for the miners to go safe or grab their pvp ships and actually have chance to give them the fight they were looking for. and for those who think npcers would just dock when they see me coming in constelation chat, might be right but anyways ur looking for a fight theres greater chance to get a real fight and if the npcer stays dock and refuse to fight You its fine he cant rat now because theres one red in constelation and he dont know where. thinking of most scenarios can happenin game theres no reason to have local its just way to easy atm for both hunters and hunted!
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.15 08:57:00 - [112] Originally by: Cambarus My thoughts on this: 1)As far as advantages go, I strongly believe that the advantage should always be given to the defender/ratter. The reasons for this are simple: If the advantage is with the attacker then there's really no point in owning space, and if ratting or other forms of carebearing become too dangerous then no one will bother doing it. Or does anyone not know of the current situation of lowsec space? (And all the risk vs rewards whines there are on the subject) Then there's the definition of victory for either side that makes a huge difference. The attacker wins when the defender loses his ship, the defender wins when he does not lose his ship. It costs me nothing to not kill a guy, but if I DO kill him then he loses his ship, and I gain his drops. Because of this I, as an agressor, should have a fairly large disadvantage. Let's say they make it so that neither side has an advantage, that there is roughly a 50% chance of either side coming out successful in this game of cat and mouse. That would mean that for every time someone gets away, they get killed the next time. Is that really fair, in any way, to the defenders? 2)Truth be told I wouldn't mind seeing local removed, but I'd want to see some sort of advantage given back to the defenders. IMO a good comprimise would be a POS mod (not something with huge fitting reqs, but that needs sov lvl 2 or 3) that alerts members of an alliance if there is a hostile in system, or maybe anchorable guns for gates The advantage always on the defender? What about the element of surprise!? I mean sure there are log in traps but thats really low. Every time local threads are mentioned people only see how it will affect their side. If you are ratting in a system off the beaten path a few jumps out from the station systems and entryways your odds of seeing any one but the lowly isk farmer are quite high. The effort of scanning down some one in all of those systems that make up 0.0 would be tedious and the importance of choosing to rat in 100 AU systems as opposed to -1.0 systems becomes quite apparent. Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.19 12:18:00 - [113] Edited by: 343conspiracy43345 on 19/09/2007 12:18:22 Originally by: Khan Soriano So now we all know we will have more ships that are supposed to be 'covert' in some way. That brings me to the eternal question of: Why the hell do we need to see pilots in local chat????? How do you actually prepare covert operations in your Black Ops BS if the second you all jump into the system everybody and their mother knows that local went from 2 NPCers to 10ppl, all from some different alliance/corporation??? If CCP is afraid to implement such change (make it work like alliance chat ie. if you speak on it then you become visible) because it would make the game too hard for some of their client base (yes fluffy carebears & mission *****s I'm talking about you) then at least consider doing it in 0.0, its supposed to be this 'hard and hostile space', remember? The way it is now, loosing a ship while hunting rats in 0.0 is almost impossible if you're not a total idiot and recent heavy usage of cloaked BS only makes it even easier (now even total idiots are pirate proof). I'd also like to know if you plan on doing the whole 'make cloaked ships scannable in some way' idea, since it seems like a good time to do it. You are in for a big surprise you spy or assassin you.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2007.09.19 12:38:00 - [114] Edited by: Brixer on 19/09/2007 12:40:23 Originally by: Sfatia Edited by: Sfatia on 15/09/2007 08:49:06 Noone needs local! and it would benefit both the hunters and hunted if u have it replaced with constelation chat. ... if u have now constelation chat ur corp/ally see them coming from further out and so they can form a gang to counter gives time for the miners to go safe or grab their pvp ships and actually have chance to give them the fight they were looking for. ... They don't look for a fight, they look for a gank with the help of rats. Why do you think we got tons of people asking for KMs to be sent to the attacker when the rat gets final blow ? If they where looking for a fight they can just linger around in a system long enough for the defenders to get their PvP ships out.. But no, sending in a cloaked scout/ceptor to find the victim in the belt first seems to be the mainstream.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.09.19 12:41:00 - [115] Originally by: Saint Luka 0.0 warefare would just turn into a ghey fest. the current state is not ghey? STAND OUT!
Major Death Caldari Space Salvage Incorperated	Posted - 2007.09.19 12:58:00 - [116] Quote: the current state is not ghey? With all the camping going on, can it be anything else? My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was remove for lack of EVE content! ;)
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.09.19 13:21:00 - [117] I don't think removing local will have any helpful effect for roaming gangs. It would skew the risk/reward so badly towards risk for miners and ratters that you will see a massive withdrawal to empire space of those groups. I.e. yes, removing local would enable roaming gangs to catch ratters and miners by surprise, but the problem would become that there would be no more ratters and miners to catch by surprise because they all said '**** this' and left. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Johho Bulon Gallente Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2007.09.19 15:07:00 - [118] I've been giving this a little bit of thought. Local obviously is used as a tactical tool by practically all players. And removing it would make the game harder in someways for many people if there is not a replacement of some kind. As has been mentioned by some posters, aircraft have transponder beacons that broadcast their assigned identity. There is no reason to assume that ships in Eve space would not be subject to similar requirements, and hence no reason to suspect that ships could not have those beacons disabled. It could be that ships with their beacons active always show up in local no matter the sec status. If turned off things could be different depending on sec status. So in high sec, where a Gate is linked to the powerful security network a player might show up in local straight away or after a few seconds delay. In lo sec he gains a few seconds for each sec level lower he goes, maybe gaining a minute in 0.1 In 0.0 where the Empires and wealthy factions have been kind enough to set up gates but provide no security the Beacon disabled ship would not show up at all. All seems nice enough but leaves the need for intel for any 0.0 residents. Having a couple scouts sat on a gate all day, or patrols checking out systems might be fine for a large alliance, but is obviously not practical for small groups and individual ratters. How do we help them out? Perhaps we could have anchorable scanners. I am thinking that a scanner would be a bubble type device that could be anchored near a gate and configured to a player or corps liking. For example, the scanner could be configured to post a timestamped message in local/corp/intel channel linking the player and shiptype of players who enter the scan bubbles radius with the scanner name as poster, and send messages if it was being attacked. Scanner bubbles could come in the typical three sizes requiring particular skills to use, just like warp bubbles. An enterprising corp/player/alliance could anchor scanners around gates and in belts. This would let any group still retain their intel, albeit with a small amount of work. It would even let them build up a surveillance network in a group of systems. As always the intelligence gathering network could be circumvented, ships that don't pass through the scan bubble radius would not show up. Covops and cloakers would not show while cloaked and so pass through without their details being relayed. Also the new covops BS might enter the system and be seen, but no one would be able to tell instantly, how many covops had jumped through it into the system once it was away from the scan range of the scanner. It could perhaps report local phenomena, such as Cyno's or maybe not if that overpowered it as an intel gathering tool. Lets have a look at the following simulated intel channel message from a large bubble in PF at the Orvolle gate: PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:40:20 Gate activation PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:40:25 Johho Bulon, Thorax 13km PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:40:26 Gate activation PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:40:27 Khan Soriano, Huggin 26km PF-Orvolle Gate scanner says: 15:41:20 Johho Bulon, Capsule 13km Eek looks like I got popped :S Now that being PF it probably would have a much different tale, such as 15 ships passing through and many pods showing up and so on, but I think you get the drift. I think it could work, and best of all it gives us the players the ability to build our own intel gathering network instead of relying on the cheap local channel to decide if a system is safe or not. It would also be another front in any inter corp battle, destroying the eyes and ears of the opponents thus forcing them to come out and replace them, risking ships and pilots in the process. What do you guys think? --------------- Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway
Frug Zenithal Harvest 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.19 15:17:00 - [119] Ah more annoying people who naturally assume that removing local means not providing any way to find people at all. Remove local. Give pirates other tools to find people. Ignore people who say it will ruin eve. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Vyyrus An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.19 15:38:00 - [120] /unsigned Although I do favor PVP I think removing local would ultimately lead to just one giant raging hormonal gank fest. It will be a bad decision for eve and 2 less accounts for eve tired of ccp nerfing everything.
Kaaii Caldari Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.09.19 15:46:00 - [121] Every single player has the ability to remopve local from there machine.. > select chat, hit minimise.... There now the people that want local can leave it as is...the ones that don't now can't see it, problem solved. According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.19 15:52:00 - [122] Id favour a partial solution; local remains but cloaked ships do not appear on local. In addition cloaked ships would require some form of fuel (no afk cloaking for extended periods). C. - sig designer - eve mail
oniplE NED-Clan R i s e	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:02:00 - [123] Originally by: Cailais Id favour a partial solution; local remains but cloaked ships do not appear on local. In addition cloaked ships would require some form of fuel (no afk cloaking for extended periods). C. Only ships that are designed to be stealthy should be able to be invisible on local chat, ships that can use the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II. Removing local in general is insane, you'll just end up with a bunch of cloaked clowns hanging around your station/gates all day long, ganking you out of nowhere. 0.0 is not hard and hostile to people who use such tactics.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:05:00 - [124] Originally by: oniplE Originally by: Cailais Id favour a partial solution; local remains but cloaked ships do not appear on local. In addition cloaked ships would require some form of fuel (no afk cloaking for extended periods). C. Only ships that are designed to be stealthy should be able to be invisible on local chat, ships that can use the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II. Removing local in general is insane, you'll just end up with a bunch of cloaked clowns hanging around your station/gates all day long, ganking you out of nowhere. 0.0 is not hard and hostile to people who use such tactics. 0.0 is not hard to warp and cloak every time some one shows up that isn't blue Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
oniplE NED-Clan R i s e	Posted - 2007.09.19 16:20:00 - [125] Originally by: Captian Internet Originally by: oniplE Originally by: Cailais Id favour a partial solution; local remains but cloaked ships do not appear on local. In addition cloaked ships would require some form of fuel (no afk cloaking for extended periods). C. Only ships that are designed to be stealthy should be able to be invisible on local chat, ships that can use the Covert Ops Cloaking Device II. Removing local in general is insane, you'll just end up with a bunch of cloaked clowns hanging around your station/gates all day long, ganking you out of nowhere. 0.0 is not hard and hostile to people who use such tactics. 0.0 is not hard to warp and cloak every time some one shows up that isn't blue I didnt claim otherwise. You either have carebears warping off due to local exposing hostile presence, or you have the "hostile presence" being close to invincible due to the removal of local in combination with cloaking devices.
Ms Caretaker Minmatar The Peoples Front of Minmatar	Posted - 2007.09.19 17:14:00 - [126] Edited by: Ms Caretaker on 19/09/2007 17:14:43 Originally by: Princess Jodi But removing Local is a disaster in the making for many playstyles. The simplest example I can give is the CareBear one: You would never know if space was secure, which means you are either sitting ducks or you need to reduce your efficiency on Mining/Ratting/Missioning by devoting some resources to potential PVP threats. *[the whole mentality behind that statement is just bloody wrong to my mind. Being able to mine/rat/mission without having to take precautions is risible.]* From an Alliance-building standpoint, no local will mean that you cannot protect/defend/patrol your space. And would not BOTH sides be upset if two 50-man fleets just passed in the night because they couldn't see each other? [Yeah cause that's what happened during the first year of the game when local didn't exist, people just never fought each other at all cause they didn't have a clue how to use the scanne....oh wait they did have big big fights. Well how the heck did that happen with no local channel to tell them there was people in space near them? who knows the answer to such mysteries...] I believe that those promoting 'No Local' believe that their personal playstyle will be enhanced by the lack of information. I don't believe that the promoters have objectively looked at the repercussions for ALL playstyles. [No I just am willing to sacrifice a game mechanic that I personally feel should never ever have made it into the game in the first place and accept that it will harm me in some ways but offer more to me in others.] TPFM - The original Minmatar Terrorists. Podding Amarrians For Years!
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.09.19 17:17:00 - [127] I've said it before and ill say it again. Remove Local Make Constellation the new local. "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein A blog of truth (not mine)
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2007.09.19 17:41:00 - [128] Originally by: Celeste Coeval I've said it before and ill say it again. Remove Local Make Constellation the new local. Original idea that one... I applaud CCP for fixing things the community had told them were broken with the games mecanics logging off in bubbles and WCS, etc, however newly abused ones now present themselves. A few of these being: 1. Jumping through a gate and losing your aggro timer. 2. Local. 3. Ships using cloaking devices beyond what they were perhaps intially designed to be used for. Of course, if CCP change these then the people who rat and cloak will just log off. Then the "give rats an aggro timer" or "logging off to escape PvP is bad mmkay" threads will increase in frequency...though perhaps thats an arguement for after Xmas when Rev 3 has settled down.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.19 20:14:00 - [129] My first PvP game was Ultima Online back in 1997. There was no local. PvP in UO remains unmatched and, funny enough, I was Grandmaster Miner (don't tell anyone, thanx) and having PKs popping into the mines was always great fun. When the true carebears (like so many pilots in 0.0 alliances) asked for the separation of PvP and no-PvP shards, UO died in a matter of weeks. What kills PvP in EVE is the cost of ships, especially since tech II (I hear it's now better with invention) and capital ships. Many pilots fear of losing their hard earned ISK (I mean those who don't buy ISK...) and PvP in EVE is more and more a coward game where blobbing becomes the norm and solo hunting the exception. Whatever CCP does, EVE is broken beyond repair. People have already started jumping in capitals against roaming gangs (yes!) and sovereignty is the last lock to an already locked PvP system. If hasn't began development of EVE II, CCP's income will mostly come from Empire players. Wait... it's already like that. Should all PvPers leave EVE, CCP would still be milking the cash cow with a game that can't support fleet warfare anyway. Talk about beating a dead horse ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Professor Perplex	Posted - 2007.09.19 20:36:00 - [130] Edited by: Professor Perplex on 19/09/2007 20:39:05 Edited by: Professor Perplex on 19/09/2007 20:37:39 Originally by: Khan Soriano Originally by: Heritor So it ok for you to have a tool that gives you some chance of seeing who is in a system but no tool to help carebears to detect your arrival in system...typical whiner who wants more help to gank carebears We both would use the same tool (scanner) so nothing is preventing carebears to be careful and not getting ganked, I just think the way its now local only benefits one side and poses a problem for the other. with removal of local you gain the clear advantage of being solo in a hostile system and knowing exactly (or most certainly) that all ships on scanner are hostile. if you go in a gang you will see your gang mates as close by with distance where as every thing else in direction of a belt must be a valid target. The miner, ratter, hauler who flies in friendly territory has no way of telling if the ship he scans is friendly or hostile. so constant scanning will do nothing. this makes it 100% easier for you to gank when at the same time even gives you an advantage while escaping from retaliation. With the scanner range as it is you make two jumps and are practically disappeared. currently you might have to run for 10+ jumps from an angry mob. you dont even need to use cloaks any more. one deep safe next door and you are pseudo cloaked. it is bad enough already with 50 million intel channels and 50 billion people constantly asking is xzy to ycd clear? now every local will become an annoying intel channel. in any case. if local goes it will be replaced by some thing similar so i will still be able to see you come when i rat and safe spot. so the circle of whine will go on. i could just park one alt one system down cloaked at a gate and see you coming.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.09.20 09:58:00 - [131] Originally by: Frug Ah more annoying people who naturally assume that removing local means not providing any way to find people at all. Remove local. Give pirates other tools to find people. Ignore people who say it will ruin eve. The problem is not that pirates don't have ways to find people. Its simple. Look at map, check where -1.0 systems are. Go there, scan belts, find ratter, kill ratter and move to next low trusec system. Local is a tool for people who spend hours in space by necessity, in systems where you can expect them to be (good truesec systems). And aside from local, all other tools are woefully inadequate. The radar/scanning system in Eve would need a huge overhaul/upgrade in order to replace local. ------------------------------------------------ New idea for sovereignty: Sovereignty revisited
Lougra Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:53:00 - [132] By removilg local, one thing will happen for sure. The easy targets like miners will be ever easier. By removing local, suicide actions like "one man in a cheap frigate" will always be able to kill miners in covetors because the covetor canot tank, and now (again) the miner is blind. The effort at this part is not equal. T1 barges are too fragile and many ppl cannot aford to buy a hulk (150+m plus eq). The hostile/pirate have to spend at most 600-700k for a cheap frig, while a fitted covetor costs more than 50m in 0.0. The miner expected to have a whole team behind for support, while one suicide frigate can pop a covetor easily without having the same effort by the side of the attacker. The imballance betwin mining ships and pve/pvp ships is terrible. Before CCP decides to remove local, it wise to bring some ballance to the side which so far feels the racism of the rest. Carebear is the surname that you got, if you enjoy to play eve, in other way than the rest want YOU to play it.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.09.20 11:10:00 - [133] All the posts I've seen treat "PvPers" and "Carebears" as if they are separate pilots. In my experience, winning a battle = 0 ISK gain - losing a battle = ISK lost to replace ship. If you remove ALL ratting/mining from the equation, eventually the total ISK pool goes to 0. This means everyone MUST MAKE ISK at some point. I enjoy ratting in 0.0 because when a fight crops up or a gang is formed I am there ready to switch out ships and participate in PVP. If it is no longer worth the risk to "carebear" in 0.0, you must go to empire to do it. This will not remove me as a target, because my home is in 0.0. I will just have to clone jump to empire to make ISK lost due to PVP (fleet battle, roaming gangs, etc.) Living in 0.0 and empire based on 24hr clone jump times is not fun, you miss out on ops that spring up (many times when you are a mere hours of being able to clone jump back to 0.0) It seems that ratting/mining in 0.0 actually DRIVES the PVP able to be waged in 0.0. Not sure why there is hostility towards making ISK in 0.0 by some players. If YOU can make ISK by PVP alone, you do not represent the majority of EVE. Total ISK assets going into a PVP engagement where ships are destroyed do not equal the total ISK of assets after the fight is over. In short it is IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to make money by just PVPing, hence it is not a viable playstyle for the populace in general (no matter how hardcore you think you are, the game breaks if pilots cant generate ISK). Summary: The safer 0.0 ratting/mining is, the MORE PVP is able to be conducted. So increasing 0.0 ratting/mining risk will give an environment better for ganks, worse for real PVP by 2 sides prepared to fight. In my opinion of course. Removing local would have to be balanced by some game mechanics change. I think there would be many variables involved. Testing changes out on the test server would be a good idea before any changes are permanently introduced. Sidenote: This is a spaceship video game. No matter how you play the game, it does not validate any sort of badassness. Also nothing real is at stake other than irritation and time. Cowardice and other derogatory misnomers are not applicable to in game actions. It is all aspirations to efficient use and enjoyment of personal time. Remember this when looking down your nose at how others choose to play the game, and let this thought be reflected in your future posts. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:34:00 - [134] Crap, crap, mega crap Keep local, how else are we to know if farmers are in systems?
Si'dun Took	Posted - 2007.10.26 21:00:00 - [135] Whats wrong with you poeple! Local is SUPPOSED to give miners and etc warning and make it easy. There is already interdictors that can stop people from warping out and warping in directly to gates, not to mention webbers and warp scrammers. What part is unfair about seeing someone coming. Like mentions before, people can do scans of the system anyway. Local chat allows pirates to see if there is prey in the system and allows prey to see the pirate coming. It's 100% fair. If you disagree, then you are just a complainy b-witch that cannot handle the fact that people have a fair chance to get away. Deal with it mutha trucka.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.26 21:11:00 - [136] Nice necro. C. - sig designer - eve mail Low Sec Idea
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.26 23:16:00 - [137] Originally by: Khan Soriano Good carebears spam scanner anyway, but what I'm targeting are those that forget to do it and I can't do it right now because local gives me up. I believe I can sum your post up in one word. "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" _________________________________
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.26 23:23:00 - [138] Originally by: Drizit I agree that local should show only how many are in the local system and not who they are. The same as 'show pilots' in the map, it indicates only how busy a system is. If I drive into your town, does a big balloon go up with my name on it so everyone knows I am there? Then why should it do so in the game? I worked in a gatehouse and sensors at the gates calculated how many people were on site but not who they were. In an evacuation, I needed only to count heads to make sure everyone was out. This system should be in place in local so that activities like Covops are doing exactly what they are supposed to do. Having my name splashed across local takes the Covert out of Covert ops. It won't be a game breaker except for those who are too lazy to use a scanner. No more 'dock when a hostile enters local' so PVP combat actually happens. Players will adapt the same as they did with WTZ. It won't be all good for pirates either. They won't know if it's new prey entering or bounty hunters coming to gank them. War decced station huggers won't know if they should zoom off to the safety of the station because it's a hostile or stay in the belt cos it's a neutral. Well, quiting RL ftl. You have to think there might be some advances in scanning technology in the next 2000 years that might allow for better scanning then is currently used today. :P Removing local IMO, will move all industry and money making out of 0.0 This would be bad for the game. Youd have a few brave souls who would do it, but in general, you would have a hiatus to empire to run missions and so forth. Removing local creates far to much of a risk to the miner / NPC'er to make it worth thier time. I certainly wouldnt mine in 0.0 with no local. So you wouldnt get to gank me anyways. Removing local pretty much only benefits IMO, the hunters. I see it as nothing more than people whining to have a game mechanic changed in order to suit their playstyle better, and that is their only concern. They have no care that their are other playstyles in game, that would suffer dramaticley if a change like this ever went through. _________________________________
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.10.26 23:26:00 - [139] Originally by: Cailais Nice necro. C. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
PostWithYourMain Main Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.26 23:27:00 - [140] Edited by: PostWithYourMain on 26/10/2007 23:31:18 Edited by: PostWithYourMain on 26/10/2007 23:29:24 Doesn't removing local -force- space holding alliance to patrol their space? As in, sit on a gate to see an enemy instead of sitting docked and seeing someone pop into local then undocking? Add an in-game item like a gate scanner for Sov 4 constellations that could be anchored at a gate and simply send some sort of warning that consisted of no more than a "I saw the enemy here" type warning. No numbers or ship types or anything, which would force the space holding alliance to send out someone to scout. Real-world scenarios are commonly shunned here, but if I walk into Iraq under cover of night fall under a rock or something, the lot of Iraq doesn't know I'm there. If there's a motion sensor where I cross the border though, someone knows I'm there, but not who I am. Someone gets sent out to investigate.
shupaco yaloo	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:22:00 - [141] Originally by: Rake Mizar Ah this old chestnut... Why local can't give you a real-time count of people in the system without identifying them unless they speak is my question. This wouldn't make it impossible to figure out if you have a potential hostile in system, but it would take more work than current which is zero. this should be the stepping stone the what the op suggests leave it around for 4+ months and then bring in the real change
Khan Soriano Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:43:00 - [142] Originally by: shupaco yaloo Originally by: Rake Mizar Ah this old chestnut... Why local can't give you a real-time count of people in the system without identifying them unless they speak is my question. This wouldn't make it impossible to figure out if you have a potential hostile in system, but it would take more work than current which is zero. this should be the stepping stone the what the op suggests leave it around for 4+ months and then bring in the real change Problem is CCP is so deep in the ass of 0.0 Alliances that they would never risk doing anything to make their life harder. I joined this game in 2005 when it was the hardest and most complicated game I've ever seen, since then it became a lot more complicated but at the same time A LOT easier and its following this pattern ever since. Sovereignty changes introduced in Rev 2 made deep 0.0 more safe and resistant to any attacks than high-sec, each moon has a POS where you can hide and no matter how many ships you brought with you, there is nothing you can do about it. Now T2 are introduced that will erase the need of logistics operations even more than 'swiss army knife' Carriers did. Just look at it this way: they acknowledge Carriers are overpowered 'I can do it all' mobiles but they postponed changes under criticism. ----- Arbitrator - Life & Death Once Amarr, now thanks to balance team going Minmatar
k'ath	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:17:00 - [143] i've got an idea... how about this local is automatically empty... on entering system you have 2 choices... say covert or... and this is the good bit... ping local if you ping you will see all pilots in local and you will also appear on thiers, think of it like an active submarine ping. IF you dont ping you can use your scanner and stay relatively hidden... might add a new tactical depth :P commence flaming... :)
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:20:00 - [144] This thread = lose. For the makers sake please stop making it look like everyone wants this change, while the truth is that only a handfull want it, and prolly for the wrong reason at that. CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.02 12:26:00 - [145] Whats this!? Its risen once more! Harker: pass me another stake! C. Piratise Low Sec! or Eve on Hard Mode (idea)

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