Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .. 11 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Elaron
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 17:48:00 -
[31]
A missile ship effectively does 0 dps until the first volley hits. Then it does its full normal dps. If an engagement is short, it means that the effective dps (defined as damage dealt divided by the duration of the engagement) of the missile ship will be significantly lower than that of it's theoretical dps (defined as damage per volley divided by rate of fire). As the engagement gets longer, the two figures will converge.
Missiles suffer this in consideration of the facts that their own movement has no effect on the damage each missile deals, and (assuming factors like range and the targets speed and signature radius do not change) the predictable damage output they have.
As an aside, if the radial velocity (that is, the rate of change of the distance between the two vessels) is a significant fraction of the speed of the missiles, then it will have an effect on the dps of the missile ship. If it's a rapid close, the dps will be higher as each volley has less travel time between them; if the distance is increasing rapidly then the greater travel time will reduce the dps. The two extreme cases are where the target can outpace the missiles - then you are doing 0 dps regardless - and the 'bombing run', where a missile ship MWDs in from long range, preferably at a speed close to that of the missiles being fired, firing several volleys of missiles as they approach the target with the view of having everything arriving as close to simultaneously as possible, effectively magnifying the first blow they strike several times. This is, of course, difficult to arrange.
|
Terianna Eri
Amarr STK Scientific M. PIRE
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 17:49:00 -
[32]
now an interesting question would be... if you, as a missile ship, are having trouble breaking a tank, does it make sense to start flying towards your target in an attempt to get closer?
much in the same way that the old cavalry ravens worked. __________________________________
|
Partacz
Amarr Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 17:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Terianna Eri now an interesting question would be... if you, as a missile ship, are having trouble breaking a tank, does it make sense to start flying towards your target in an attempt to get closer?
much in the same way that the old cavalry ravens worked.
Yea it will help. Closer to your target = Closer to your full dps
|
Mudkest
MetaForge Ekliptika
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 17:53:00 -
[34]
going to make it a bit more complicated. Distance does affect missile dps, but the time it takes for a target to die affects that dps-effect as well(still with me? ).
Lets say in your fleet it takes 10 seconds for a target to die and 12 seconds for your missiles to reach the target. Target will be dead before misisles reach it so you deal 0 damage(and 0/sometinhg is still 0 so 0 dps as well)
no the next target your missiles still take 12 seconds to hit, but it takes a whole 2 minsute(120 seconds) for your teget to die. This means that you have a full 108 seconds where you are dealing damage to your target(compared to if your missiles had instant hit, you dael only 90% of the time damage)
now if you start calculating your dps from when the fight starts you are only dealing damage 90% of the time so your dps will drop because of that compared to if you had instant hit missiles(but then ROF is also a factor here, the higher your ROF the bigger your dps drop)
dont believe me? lets say missile flight time is still1 2 secs and comab time is still 120 secs. If you have a ROF of 121 secs it doesn matter if your missiles hit instantly or after 12 seconds, you only get 1 hit in those 120 secodns anyway.
Now with a ROF of 1 seconds, you are loosing damage for 12 shots(from the 120, meaning a 10% lower dps)
easy right 8)
----- GIEV custom ship paint jobs!
I want my hello-kitty-kessie! |
NoNah
Unseen University
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 17:56:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Terianna Eri now an interesting question would be... if you, as a missile ship, are having trouble breaking a tank, does it make sense to start flying towards your target in an attempt to get closer?
much in the same way that the old cavalry ravens worked.
Indeed, an effective increase in dps - something the turretboats can't do. It's normally not a huge increase of course, but...
You should also seperate input and output dps, the launchers will put out a constant dps, but the target will recieve a varying amount thanks to it moving and flight time.
Postcount: 883446
|
Complex Potential
Soliders Of Eve The Makhai
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 17:57:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Terianna Eri now an interesting question would be... if you, as a missile ship, are having trouble breaking a tank, does it make sense to start flying towards your target in an attempt to get closer?
much in the same way that the old cavalry ravens worked.
That is an interesting question. I would say that if you are moving toward your target, the dps would go up. The dps is found by dividing the missile damage by the time between missile hits.
The time betwen missile hits is dependent on the distance between the missiles in the air. If you are moving toward your target then the distance between the missiles would be less.
|
Complex Potential
Soliders Of Eve The Makhai
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 17:59:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Mudkest Edited by: Mudkest on 12/09/2007 17:56:28 depends if you are talking about DPS or average DPS. DPS range doesnt matter, you just dps with a delay. average dps range DOES matter
going, the time it takes for a target to die affects average dps as well(still with me? ).
Lets say in your fleet it takes 10 seconds for a target to die and 12 seconds for your missiles to reach the target. Target will be dead before misisles reach it so you deal 0 damage(and 0/sometinhg is still 0 so 0 dps as well)
no the next target your missiles still take 12 seconds to hit, but it takes a whole 2 minsute(120 seconds) for your teget to die. This means that you have a full 108 seconds where you are dealing damage to your target(so damage you done divided by those 120 seconds is the dps you've done on average during the fight)
now if you start calculating your dps from when the fight starts you are only dealing damage 90% of the time so your dps will drop because of that compared to if you had instant hit missiles(but then ROF is also a factor here, the higher your ROF the bigger your dps drop)
dont believe me? lets say missile flight time is still1 2 secs and comab time is still 120 secs. If you have a ROF of 121 secs it doesn matter if your missiles hit instantly or after 12 seconds, you only get 1 hit in those 120 secodns anyway.
Now with a ROF of 1 seconds, you are loosing damage for 12 shots(from the 120, meaning a 10% lower dps)
easy right 8)
Throughout all of this I've been taling about DPS, not average DPS.
|
NoNah
Unseen University
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:00:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Partacz
Originally by: Terianna Eri now an interesting question would be... if you, as a missile ship, are having trouble breaking a tank, does it make sense to start flying towards your target in an attempt to get closer?
much in the same way that the old cavalry ravens worked.
Yea it will help. Closer to your target = Closer to your full dps
Mate, I'd really advice you to recheck your idea. Its completly and entirely incorrect, except for the very first volley.
Postcount: 678010
|
Partacz
Amarr Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:02:00 -
[39]
Originally by: NoNah Indeed, an effective increase in dps - something the turretboats can't do. It's normally not a huge increase of course, but...
Well it depends what do you mean by saying huge For example. Two ships. At 60km range shooting missiles will do less dps that the same ships at 0km. Cos there will be no flight time delay between hits. So if you are doing more dps than the target can repair per second his tank will fall and you win
|
Complex Potential
Soliders Of Eve The Makhai
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Partacz
Originally by: Terianna Eri now an interesting question would be... if you, as a missile ship, are having trouble breaking a tank, does it make sense to start flying towards your target in an attempt to get closer?
much in the same way that the old cavalry ravens worked.
Yea it will help. Closer to your target = Closer to your full dps
Not quite sure what you mean here. The DPS will not go up simply because you are closer, but it might if you are actually moving towards your target.
|
|
Partacz
Amarr Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:07:00 -
[41]
Well yea. If you stop moving closer the dps will stop rising. If you reach 0km from the target the dps increas will stop cos it reached its maximum.
|
Complex Potential
Soliders Of Eve The Makhai
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:08:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Partacz
Originally by: NoNah Indeed, an effective increase in dps - something the turretboats can't do. It's normally not a huge increase of course, but...
Well it depends what do you mean by saying huge For example. Two ships. At 60km range shooting missiles will do less dps that the same ships at 0km. Cos there will be no flight time delay between hits. So if you are doing more dps than the target can repair per second his tank will fall and you win
As stated above, if you work out the dps from the instant you fire then the distance effects the overall dps. But if you are talking about dps from the moment the first missile hits then distance makes no difference.
|
Mudkest
MetaForge Ekliptika
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:14:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Terianna Eri now an interesting question would be... if you, as a missile ship, are having trouble breaking a tank, does it make sense to start flying towards your target in an attempt to get closer?
much in the same way that the old cavalry ravens worked.
in a way, yes it does. lets assume a ROF of 10 seconds and a missile speed of 100 m/s. first both you adn your target are stationary at 2km distance. you fire first missile, wich goes to your target. after 10 secodns when the 2nd missile is launched your first missile is 1km away from target. another 10 secodns later your third missile is launched, your 2nd missile is now 1km away from target and your first hits. time between first and 2nd hit will be 10 seconds(with 1 damage from your missiles you deal 2 damage in 10 seconds, or 0.2 dps) HOWEVER, the fight has allready been going on for 20 secodns so your AVERAGE dps for that fight is 2/20=0.1 dps
now lets say you are moving to your target at 50m/s and your target is still stationary and 2km away when you start. First missile is launched. after 10 seconds your first missile is 1km away from target and you are 1.5km away from target. another 10 seconds later ther first missile hits, your 2nd missile is no 500 meters away from target and you are 1000 meterrs away from target. Time between first and 2nd hit is now 5 seconds, so with 1 damage you now deal 2/5=0.4 dps between the 2 hits) HOWEVER, fight is allready going on for 20 seconds so your AVERAGE dps is still 2/20 or 0.1
so yes, you can(temporary) increase your dps by moving towards your target, but doesnt affect your average dps ;)
----- GIEV custom ship paint jobs!
I want my hello-kitty-kessie! |
NoNah
Unseen University
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:21:00 -
[44]
Edited by: NoNah on 12/09/2007 18:23:16
Originally by: Mudkest
Originally by: Terianna Eri now an interesting question would be... if you, as a missile ship, are having trouble breaking a tank, does it make sense to start flying towards your target in an attempt to get closer?
much in the same way that the old cavalry ravens worked.
in a way, yes it does. lets assume a ROF of 10 seconds and a missile speed of 100 m/s. first both you adn your target are stationary at 2km distance. you fire first missile, wich goes to your target. after 10 secodns when the 2nd missile is launched your first missile is 1km away from target. another 10 secodns later your third missile is launched, your 2nd missile is now 1km away from target and your first hits. time between first and 2nd hit will be 10 seconds(with 1 damage from your missiles you deal 2 damage in 10 seconds, or 0.2 dps) HOWEVER, the fight has allready been going on for 20 secodns so your AVERAGE dps for that fight is 2/20=0.1 dps
now lets say you are moving to your target at 50m/s and your target is still stationary and 2km away when you start. First missile is launched. after 10 seconds your first missile is 1km away from target and you are 1.5km away from target. another 10 seconds later ther first missile hits, your 2nd missile is no 500 meters away from target and you are 1000 meterrs away from target. Time between first and 2nd hit is now 5 seconds, so with 1 damage you now deal 2/5=0.4 dps between the 2 hits) HOWEVER, fight is allready going on for 20 seconds so your AVERAGE dps is still 2/20 or 0.1
so yes, you can(temporary) increase your dps by moving towards your target, but doesnt affect your average dps ;)
Now lets make a new example. Distance is 10km, missile speed is 100m/s, your velocity is 100m/s, target is stationary. Missile damage is 1. RoF is 2 seconds. If you had been stationary the dps would be, from the first point of damage - to the last point of damage, 0.5. Now add speed. It takes you 100 seconds to transverse the 10km towards your target. As you keep the same speed as the missiles, you will have the time to fire 50 volleys. each volley deals 1 damage, and they would all hit the same instant. Thus you would be approaching an nearly infinite dps. 50 * 1 / x where x is approaching (+)0.
To use my newly coined expressions: Output(outbound, maybe?) dps is the constant of 0.5 dps. Input(inbound?) is anything from 0-infinite(theoreticly).
Postcount: 397602
|
Partacz
Amarr Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:46:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Partacz on 12/09/2007 18:54:30
Originally by: Complex Potential As stated above, if you work out the dps from the instant you fire then the distance effects the overall dps. But if you are talking about dps from the moment the first missile hits then distance makes no difference.
Well i think counting DPS from them moment when the first missile hit is just false. To clarify we should ask what is DPS? Its an amount for numbers (charge) that reach a target on a time period (make it 1 secound).
Lets start counting it from the missile impact as you sugested. Missile charge - 100 Rof - 5s Distance - 0 (makes a difference and im going to prove it: D ) Missile velocity - matters but im to lazy to calculate it
1s - 100 dmg 2s - 0 dmg 3s - 0 dmg 4s - 0 dmg 5s - 100 dmg 6s - 0 7s - and so on.
But you are forgeting that missiles arent doing insta dmg. Even if you count it from the missile hit. The time between hits will change if the targets will change the amount of km from each other. This distance will affect the amout of time between hits any way. It doesnt matter if you start counting the dps from the missile hit or from the missile launch. So if a target is closer the time amount between hits will decreas. So it will increas the DPS. Cos DPS is damage amount dealed per second. For example i will take lasers. The laser beam travels the space with a constant amount of speed. It also has to travel a distance. Its the same like with missile. The difference is the missiles will never get close to that speed. Thats why we dont bother and call it insta dmg. Cos its traveling with the speed of light. On big distances (some AU's) it would be an issue. Cos we have light speed and huge distance. So we would count it like we do it for missiles. But at so close ranges like 0-250km it doesnt matter. Thats why we are counting the traveling time of light as "0". And dont forget this is a game
|
NoNah
Unseen University
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:53:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Partacz And dont forget this is a game
True - and because of that fact - lasers deal damage instantly.
And yes, it matters if the opponent is moving or not, if the distance is increasing - the dps will be lower, if its getting lower - the dps will be higher. As such it's neither a boon nor a curse. If you can exploit it - its great, if you can't its bad.
Postcount: 372158
|
Partacz
Amarr Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 18:56:00 -
[47]
Originally by: NoNah True - and because of that fact - lasers deal damage instantly.
And yes, it matters if the opponent is moving or not, if the distance is increasing - the dps will be lower, if its getting lower - the dps will be higher. As such it's neither a boon nor a curse. If you can exploit it - its great, if you can't its bad.
Love
|
Borasao
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 19:54:00 -
[48]
If theoretical DPS is the measure of missile damage divided by rate of fire, it should be easy to prove that observed missile DPS must be strictly less than theoretical DPS because flight time is non-zero (and positive), so the duration of time of the engagement must be larger than the period of time in which missiles are doing their theoretical DPS value. Since observed DPS is the time during which DPS is applied divided by the actual timespan of the engagement, DPS-time divided by total-time must be strictly less than 1, which means the observed DPS is some fraction of theoretical DPS. If you suppose you had infinite ammo (no reload time) and you fired forever, observed DPS of missiles will approach theoretical DPS.
|
Brodde Dim
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 20:13:00 -
[49]
I think all DPS calculations should cover the time from when you start to do damage, to the time when you stop doing damage. Its just a theoretical variable anyways.
Its no point including locking time, travel time, "moving towards target boost" or anything else in it, since it will only give a hunch, and not an accurate value anyway.
If you wanted a more accurate value you should offcourse plot the average damage over time in a graph, and see how the average DPS increases quickly in the beginning and then slowly gets gets reduced towards zero (unless you have lazurs with T1 crystals, they will never run out of ammo). This graph would be useless though.
|
Halock
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 20:43:00 -
[50]
My I.Q has droped reading this thread o.o
DPS = Damage per second....seems alot of people cant grasp that concept.
|
|
Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 20:58:00 -
[51]
The problem is, that people use different aproaches to calculate the dps. For me, the battle starts when the first target warps/jumps in and end when the last target warps off/jumps away/explodes. Then you take that time and divide all the damage dealt with it. In this calculation, all locking,moving,aproaching times effect dps.
If you calculate it just by the pure dps which leave your turrets/launcher, flight time doesnt effect it. But thats a pretty one sided way to see it.
|
Wayward Hooligan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 21:31:00 -
[52]
If we are counting flight time of the first damaging volley into dps then please tell me the dps of a Blasterthron at 100km -vs- the dps of a Cruise Raven @ 100km.
Blasterthron has to travel minimum 90km before it can start to dps. Raven's missiles have to travel minimum 100km before it can start to dps.
Switching targets means incurring more loss to dps.
I think counting the initial flight time into dps equations is ********. However, if you do calculate dps as damage done in entire fight divided by time from start of fight to end of fight I bet Blasterboats have ****ty dps.
|
Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 22:11:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Wayward Hooligan If we are counting flight time of the first damaging volley into dps then please tell me the dps of a Blasterthron at 100km -vs- the dps of a Cruise Raven @ 100km.
Blasterthron has to travel minimum 90km before it can start to dps. Raven's missiles have to travel minimum 100km before it can start to dps.
Switching targets means incurring more loss to dps.
I think counting the initial flight time into dps equations is ********. However, if you do calculate dps as damage done in entire fight divided by time from start of fight to end of fight I bet Blasterboats have ****ty dps.
Raven vs Mega @ 100km -> 0 dps vs 0 dps because mega warps away.
Most fights start at less then 20km... Where blasterships rule... The other situations where you start a fight around 100km (mostly fleet) missiles have huge drawbacks.
|
NoNah
Unseen University
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 22:15:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman Raven vs Mega @ 100km -> 0 dps vs 0 dps because mega warps away.
Most fights start at less then 20km... Where blasterships rule... The other situations where you start a fight around 100km (mostly fleet) missiles have huge drawbacks.
So what youre saying is... blasters need a huge boost as they're utterly worthless in fleetbattles?
Or that the game is unfair as the caldaripilots have to fit rails instead of missiles much like all other pilots need to fit the racial guntype appropiate for fleetbattles? Except most others do not have the _option_ to use a gun dealing 900+ dps at whatever range they want on poses and capitals?
Postcount: 59899
|
Atama Cardel
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 22:17:00 -
[55]
If you are getting closer to your target while you are firing your missiles hit with a higher ROF, this was the principle of the old calvary raven because it could lay 4-5 volleys of torps into a target at once.
|
Wayward Hooligan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 22:18:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Wayward Hooligan If we are counting flight time of the first damaging volley into dps then please tell me the dps of a Blasterthron at 100km -vs- the dps of a Cruise Raven @ 100km.
Blasterthron has to travel minimum 90km before it can start to dps. Raven's missiles have to travel minimum 100km before it can start to dps.
Switching targets means incurring more loss to dps.
I think counting the initial flight time into dps equations is ********. However, if you do calculate dps as damage done in entire fight divided by time from start of fight to end of fight I bet Blasterboats have ****ty dps.
Raven vs Mega @ 100km -> 0 dps vs 0 dps because mega warps away.
Most fights start at less then 20km... Where blasterships rule... The other situations where you start a fight around 100km (mostly fleet) missiles have huge drawbacks.
I was talking gang -vs- gang.
In a gang -vs- gang fight the Raven does some kind of dps to a given target at 100km.
The Blasterthron also does some kind of dps to a given target at 100km.
What is it?
The point is, counting flight time into dps calculations is silly because all ships except turret boats with targets within their optimal are effected.
All 4 races have long range turret ships so its not like Caldari are unable to get instantaneous damage if they want it.
Also, the game isn't about solo and shouldn't be balanced around solo.
|
Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 22:27:00 -
[57]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Benn Helmsman Raven vs Mega @ 100km -> 0 dps vs 0 dps because mega warps away.
Most fights start at less then 20km... Where blasterships rule... The other situations where you start a fight around 100km (mostly fleet) missiles have huge drawbacks.
So what youre saying is... blasters need a huge boost as they're utterly worthless in fleetbattles?
Or that the game is unfair as the caldaripilots have to fit rails instead of missiles much like all other pilots need to fit the racial guntype appropiate for fleetbattles? Except most others do not have the _option_ to use a gun dealing 900+ dps at whatever range they want on poses and capitals?
First, are you aware that caldari have to change ships to switch between missile and rails? Not just modules, because you cant really fit rails on a raven, and no real missiles on a rokh. While its pretty easy to switch blaster and rails on mega/hyperion.
Show me a missile setup dealing 900+ dps...
|
Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 22:33:00 -
[58]
Originally by: NoNah
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
First, are you aware that caldari have to change ships to switch between missile and rails? Not just modules, because you cant really fit rails on a raven, and no real missiles on a rokh. While its pretty easy to switch blaster and rails on mega/hyperion.
Show me a missile setup dealing 900+ dps...
A Raven with max skills, 6 siege launchers and 4 bcu's would be around there, no? And yes, you'd better change ships for using hybrids as caldari. Just not sure what I'm supposed to say about that?
No, even with Rage torps you wont even reach 800 dps.
|
Goldis
Caldari Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 23:00:00 -
[59]
Missile dps is not affected by distance.
There are two factors, however, that may make it seem so:
1)NPC's using defender missiles. The farther away the NPC's you're firing towards are, the higher the chances that their defender missiles will work, effectively reducing your DPS. This is more noticable in missions in which you fire volleys into a pack of battleships, sporting several that use defenders. That is why sometimes some ships that you're used to taking down with a said number of volleys may require one more. Note that at short ranges, defender missiles do not work at all.
Vengeance is a good mission to test this, the final battleship uses lots of defenders. you will find that a cruise raven cannot kill that battleship at range, but once you close the distance they burn through it like a hot knife through butter.
2)From my experience, when you are firing close to the extreme range of your missiles, you get the explosion effect, but your missiles deal no damage. I expect this has to do with the game's update rate, since the distances you get in overview are always a couple of seconds late.
----
De Gustibus et Coloribus non disputandum est.
|
Silence Duegood
|
Posted - 2007.09.12 23:03:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Wayward Hooligan
All 4 races have long range turret ships so its not like Caldari are unable to get instantaneous damage if they want it.
The point of the thread isn't races ships, is it? It's missiles. Missiles are not instantaneous damage. If you think Ravens are popular in fleets you are clueless. Tell me, how many Ravens do you see in fleets on killmails? Hmm?
Get in touch with reality.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .. 11 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |