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Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.09.13 17:35:00 - [91] Originally by: Elmicker Not practical. It'd give different ships different levels of effectiveness and safety in different systems. Then don't give them different levels of effectiveness. Or make a module for it. Originally by: Elmicker Quote: A ping system... A nice idea, but would never work. The hunted are limited to static locations such as belts, the hunters can go anywhere in a system and have no need to show themselves via this intel system, yet can still find their targets. Swings the balance massively in favour of the attacker. That's why I said it should alert anyone in the system that there is a ping being made. I also don't see why you, the ratter, can't also ping every few minutes. Or implement this in conjunction with an early warning scanner that alerts you automatically when someone comes in a given range. I'm not a pirate, I'm an NPCer and mission runner. I think you're being a bit of a wimp. I also think it would be easier to hide and belt rat if people had to make a noisy ping to find me. Or they can hunt the slow way, in which case more power to them, they deserve an advantage. Originally by: Elmicker Quote: As was mentioned earlier, adjust sovereignty so that people who own systems can set up scanners that identify everyone in the system. Taking out their scanners would suddenly be a worthwhile target. Scanners in a constellation could show them right on the map everyone in the whole constellation. Again, a nice idea but what about lowsec? What about NPC 0.0? What about raiding parties into sovereign 0.0? Provides waay too much of a safety net. NPC 0.0 ratters (read: farmers) would be invulnerable, and 0.0 residents could rat and mine in 100% safety. That was for 0.0 space only. Figure something else out for low sec, or I dunno, leave local in low sec? Come on. You can put up straw men and label absolutely any suggestion in the world as impractical and imbalanced if you want to. Point is that there are numerous practical alternatives, and all of them can be easily adjusted so that balance is maintained. If you can't think of how to adjust it, you're just not trying on purpose. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Sky Marshal Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.13 17:42:00 - [92] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 13/09/2007 17:45:02 Originally by: Xoria Krint I even think more pilots will come to lowsec if local was removed. And more mining ops/npcer's in the belts. I think in an another way : Many pilots will leave the 0.0/Low-Sec to return to Empire, because the realism isn't compatable with fun. I have better things to do than click "Scan... Scan... Scan... Scan... Scan..." each time I try to do something. This will make me so much nervous that I will stay in the station the time required to evacuate my assets. I prefer doing missions that play at EVE without have more sensation that a constant nervosity because I don't know if there is someone in my location, it is a game not a work... Of course, many posts here purpose many others solutions to resolve the problem, but I don't want any compromise : ANY change of local (except the covert-ops specific hidden status) = Best stupid idea ever. /Not Signed
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.13 17:44:00 - [93] Edited by: Elmicker on 13/09/2007 17:44:36 Originally by: Frug Then don't give them different levels of effectiveness. Or make a module for it. So, we end up with a new must-fit module, or an automatic, system-wide scanning system. Wait. Doesn't local do that already? Quote: I think you're being a bit of a wimp. I was looking at it from the attacker's PoV, actually. I haven't shot a 0.0 rat in over 8 months. Quote: I also think it would be easier to hide and belt rat if people had to make a noisy ping to find me. Or they can hunt the slow way Who says they have to ping? Any gang worth their salt will carry a prober who can track down any ship (not cloaked/docked) in any location in under a minute. The only way to combat this, as the defender, is to sit there, intentionally giving away your position every 30 seconds or so. Again, an unbalanced solution.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.09.13 17:58:00 - [94] Edited by: Frug on 13/09/2007 18:02:17 Originally by: Elmicker So, we end up with a new must-fit module, or an automatic, system-wide scanning system. Wait. Doesn't local do that already? Maybe, but local chat channel scouting is dumb and doesn't have any range limitation at all. You're not getting me. I said don't make it different between ships. There's so many of these must-fit modules, you'd think everyone would run out of slots by now. Quote: I was looking at it from the attacker's PoV, actually. I haven't shot a 0.0 rat in over 8 months. So let us carebears worry? I'm not afraid of it. As I said, I would be more inclined to go to low sec if I thought I could hide. As it is now, I KNOW i can't hide because you have this stupid chat room that instantly tells you i'm there without any intelligence or effort on your part. So I just dock (or if I was a macro I'd logofski) the second you appear in the magical chat room. Quote: Who says they have to ping? Any gang worth their salt will carry a prober who can track down any ship (not cloaked/docked) in any location in under a minute. The only way to combat this, as the defender, is to sit there, intentionally giving away your position every 30 seconds or so. Again, an unbalanced solution. Again, I'm not worried about it. If you're the pirate, why don't you let me worry about surviving. I'm quite confident that forcing you to operate in a gang with a skilled recon pilot, or forcing you to ping noisily, or forcing you to probe (which can already be detected) is perfectly fine for me. Seriously, you can declare every single alternative in the universe imbalanced if you want to. Doesn't take much effort to say "nope! Imbalanced!" to everything. This could go on forever and get nowhere. If you really, honestly want to cling to the belief that a chat room is the be-all end all only "fair" way to find people in eve, good luck with that. I think ccp will eventually change it, when they get around to it. I think introducing WTZ was more significant than this would be, and people complained to no end that it would destroy all piracy in eve. Meh. I say. Meh. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Synseer Minmatar Generals Of Destruction Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.13 18:04:00 - [95] Edited by: Synseer on 13/09/2007 18:05:40 seems alot of people are complaining about having to scan every 5 seconds, and i agree, that would be annoying. How about instead, every ship's onboard scanner autmoatically scans and places all the people they find into the local window... for example: I jump into jita and i see 36 in local as those are the 36 in scan range of the gate that arent cloaked. The other 639 pilots in jita stations, or out of 15au range, or cloaked would not show up in the local channel. unoccupied ships however would not be reflected in the local window but they would still show up on scan as they do now. and as for deep space safes, just release probes with a range that exceeds how far you can make safes to prevent 80 man blobs "hiding." You can even make the probes sensitive to size of fleet with larger fleets being easier to find than smaller ones. so actually this would kill 2 birds with one stone...unrealistic local channels and blob warfare And of course, cloakers are getting nerfed anyway so well worry about that after they publish what theyre gonna do.
yaniv mk5	Posted - 2007.09.13 18:06:00 - [96] Not signed
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.09.13 18:12:00 - [97] Originally by: Synseer How about instead, every ship's onboard scanner autmoatically scans and places all the people they find into the local window. I agree with ideas along this line, that is, buff the tool designed to give you local pilot info the scanner and nerf the chat utility. Sure! Overhaul the scanner interface. Automate it and have the scanner itself display a list of ships it detects. I think we could get much more effective intel out of this system. ---------------
Leroy Payne	Posted - 2007.09.13 18:26:00 - [98] Originally by: Frug Maybe, but local chat channel scouting is dumb Justify that rather flippant starting point, and your whole case might start to take shape. Your starting premise remains nothing more than your personal opinion. "its dumb change it!"
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.09.13 19:36:00 - [99] Originally by: Frug Originally by: Arial Stargazer Also, brainless and lazy Scouts will be out of a job This last point sorta relates to just to empire wars I fixed it for you. And to address your other whines, I'm not sure where anyone insisted that an alternative method of finding people, that isn't simply a magical list of names of everyone in a whole system, can't be implemented. I find it amusing that: carebears whine that it will make pirates impossible to spot ahead of time. Pirates whine that it will make carebears too hard to find. I think you're all profoundly lazy, and I think that CCP will eventually find something better than local for providing scouting intel. "Profoundly lazy"? I'm playing a video game. I think it's amusing how many times the word lazy and coward are thrown around in relation to a nerdy spaceship video game world. The action of playing this game itself could be considered inherently lazy. Don't try and validate your manliness through an online virtual spaceship world. If I wasn't lazy, I'd be wasting my time in other ways ("work"). Also since when is any comment of a different opinion than yours a "whine". Not every opinion you don't agree with is a whine, no matter how satisfying it is to you to slander people you don't really know based on a couple of typed out comments. As for removing local, I think it could work if enough changes were made to facilitate the removal. What changes would have to made in tandem with removing local? I have no idea, too many factors to consider. They'd have to do their best and just try it or let players test it out. There are always unseen consequences to changes made to the game, this change would be big enough that there would be many unexpected results to gameplay I think. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:52:00 - [100] Originally by: Gorefacer "Profoundly lazy"? Okay, maybe not so profound. It sounded good at the time. Originally by: Gorefacer I think it's amusing how many times the word lazy and coward are thrown around in relation to a nerdy spaceship video game world. The action of playing this game itself could be considered inherently lazy. Don't try and validate your manliness through an online virtual spaceship world. I agree calling people cowards in eve is lame, especially considering the capitalistic nature of the game. I'm not so sure Eve is inherently lazy. Eve involves a lot of work for the payout it gives. Also, my manliness is not in dispute. Look at my avatar. That is manly. That's all I need. Plus, I can talk ** on forums. That also requires manliness in bucket loads. I do think this issue comes down to laziness. You can be lazy in eve. Plenty of people are. Their afk autopiloting freighters regularly get suicide ganked in Jita and they come to forums to whine daily. Originally by:** Gorefacer Also since when is any comment of a different opinion than yours a "whine". Not every opinion you don't agree with is a whine. Clearly you don't use these forums enough. That is the very definition of whining. Originally by: Gorefacer As for removing local, I think it could work if enough changes were made to facilitate the removal. What changes would have to made in tandem with removing local? I have no idea, too many factors to consider. They'd have to do their best and just try it or let players test it out. Yes. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.13 23:57:00 - [101] Ok, so it could work if enough changes were made. Is that a reason to do it?
Sweetsecret	Posted - 2007.09.14 00:04:00 - [102] Edited by: Sweetsecret on 14/09/2007 00:12:34 Edited by: Sweetsecret on 14/09/2007 00:10:30 Edited by: Sweetsecret on 14/09/2007 00:09:13 Originally by: Maximada A few months back after a patch, there was a bug for about 48 hours where noboddy could see anybody else in local unless they spoke there. Best 48 hours ive had and alot of people i talked to agreed. The surprise element was there and you had to scan more often and keep your wits about you alot more. Why not make this a more permanent feature? Imagine the extra tactics etc. In my oppionion local channel is just silly. Gives an instant advantage and wraps us as players in cotton wool. Thoughts?? I agree Remove local, and if they speak with voice or type text in any form from their computer Blink them in to local with red flashing lights as the local sensor pick up the noise from their cloaked ships. come to think of it, then the only one favoring not showing on local would be the afk cloaked ships at secure locations and why do they care after all they are afk. PS: I forgot have Jump gates Announce arrivals and departures, that would be essential when their name dont show in locals, unless people maage to jump in with capitol ships, then offcourse every local sensor should go beserk and war people up to 3 jumps away a capitol ship have jumped or a star is a bout to explode. honestly, i don't figure out how people are thinking they can sneak in to a system after they register to the jumpgates they use. Thats like stealth sneaking in the door after you have used your own personal keycard to open it with,. better if you think of local as a registery every can access where the listed arrivals are and deleted when they departure the system.
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.09.14 00:17:00 - [103] Originally by: Elmicker Ok, so it could work if enough changes were made. Is that a reason to do it? Yes. Give ships cool sensors and doodads to provide early warning and intel, make it require some tactics and range considerations. Make space space, instead of chat rooms. I have some (I hate to say this) RP or immersionist reasons for wanting it, along with the other stuff mentioned. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.09.14 00:20:00 - [104] Originally by: Frug I have some (I hate to say this) RP or immersionist reasons for wanting it, along with the other stuff mentioned. So you want one of the core game mechanics changed based on "oveur said so" and "it's not immersionalist"?
MeGrand Gallente Life INC	Posted - 2007.09.14 00:36:00 - [105] NO Intel tool it makes a good one of.. reasonable care needed (i.e. watch it) but not a total attention requireier... scanning would not count as a substitue... but mostly because I'd get lonely for those of us in small corps or casual players... and good part of the comunity of eve is in the local chat channels... make space seem far more alive (daft jita chat exempted) All the right letters - just not nessacarily in the right order
Souvera Corvus Gallente Universal Exports Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.09.14 00:37:00 - [106] Edited by: Souvera Corvus on 14/09/2007 00:39:07 I think of plenty of immmersionist reasons why it should be left exactly the way it is. Not the least of which is the fact that, as all of the gates are or were controlled by Empire factions they might want to keep a track of who and what enters their systems. Especially, dare I say, pirates or anyone who happened to be flagged for whatever reason................ The fact that they may want to tell all and sundry in the system about said miscreant is a no-brainer. For those of you who couldn't give two hoots about the backstory or anything stemming from it, I would think it's fairly self-evident that if we can already (with a little preparation) be pretty difficult to find, then the removal of local added to a plethora of deep safes (even off-grid ones) would result in less conflict. You'd be operating in a fog. This idea continues to be proposed by those who find it frustrating that their targets don't just sit there to get caned and would like an instant advantage. It's amazing that any of us manage to PvP at all what with that damned local........... The guy from Ganja labs is in the right of it.
Xoria Krint The Movement	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:03:00 - [107] Originally by: Elmicker Ok, so it could work if enough changes were made. Is that a reason to do it? It's a hell of a reason to try it atleast? Then have some kind of democratic vote about it - My Movies
Frug Zenithal Harvest 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.14 22:09:00 - [108] Edited by: Frug on 14/09/2007 22:10:48 Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Frug I have some (I hate to say this) RP or immersionist reasons for wanting it, along with the other stuff mentioned. So you want one of the core game mechanics changed based on "oveur said so" and "it's not immersionalist"? Up until this remark it sounded like you might have actually been trying to have a discussion. I guess not. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Aizhan Ushrakhan The Hashasshins	Posted - 2007.11.22 05:56:00 - [109] The OP has a point. I would like to suggest this as a solution In local : It can be filtered in this way..e.g. Neutrals Icon: 2400 (its Jita in 6mths time) -5 Icon : 2 War Target Icon : 21 number. It will tell you the NUMBER of said filter and not WHO is in local. It will give people a chance to hide (yes) or gank (yes) and is a bit like it is now but minus the damn list. It wont let you know WHO so you have to find out that one out. And you can still talk as in per local but your name will appear :P and would control smackers somewhat. If CCP revamps local I think this would please most people (carebear and pvper alike) It's more balanced than just remove local entirely.
Sartaron Amarr LEGI0N SOUL CARTEL	Posted - 2007.11.22 06:36:00 - [110] Local, as it is now is not good. it should only show people who have talked. But intel on the system is very imortant. So, local would show how many people are there, but not who. But i think, the game might become very boring then. Local as it is might be good regarding game mechanics.
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.22 07:43:00 - [111] Local stays untill we have simular WORKING alternative for intel.
Arkan Omali UK Corp	Posted - 2007.11.22 08:38:00 - [112] no way :/ local needs to be there as it is.
Lix Titrax Association Of United Bastards	Posted - 2007.11.22 09:13:00 - [113] My opinion on Local is that it gives away too much information immediately, and I'm speaking as someone who plays both PVP and carebear sides of the game with my various characters. I like the idea of having Local not list the users unless they speak but also keep an updated count of people in the system. As a carebear this forces me to keep my eye on the count, and if I see it change then I need to open the system scanner, align to a station/SS, and be ready to to fight or run. As a can flipping/baiting pirate (this is what Lix does) I like the idea of having to hunt my prey and also not necessarily know who is waiting for me in a belt if they have renamed their ship. I also hate the standing info that is in local. But I'm pretty sure that was added after it was said the Goons had a program that does the same thing for them. CCP stated there wasn't much they could do to detect those who used such a program or to prevent its use, so it probably ended up just being easier to give that feature to everyone. Removing the list of people in a system would also take away this information unless someone speaks in local and gives themselves away, which to me at least, seems reasonable. I don't agree with the complete elimination of Local because ultimately EVE is a game of interaction. One of the most enjoyable things of Local for me is after I attack someone, whether I win or not, the potential smack or conversations they cause. I've met some cool people this way (even though I just attacked them) and I have also endured some of the best smack-attacks ever through Local. But that is my view on it. A lot of people have some great views in here, but I still prefer it my way, biased as it may be.
Khorin D'tael Caldari D'tael Contracts	Posted - 2007.11.22 09:18:00 - [114] Meh I can't even find my front door sometimes so how the hell would I expect to know every person in a solar system!
Polcor Rodal Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.22 09:19:00 - [115] Tried to make a suggestion, but maybe ive choosen the wrong Forum. Anyway, here we go: Suggestion to change local and onbiard scanner Pol If in danger, or in doubt, run in cricles, scream and shout
Ichabod Dirange Backwater Security Systems	Posted - 2007.11.22 09:59:00 - [116] Originally by: Thrust SSC While i'm to lazy to look up the exact quote by Oveur, it went something like this: "Local is not a tactical tool, it's for chat" That I sign. Stop whining about removing local. They never will. But it is a tactical tool, if they want to make it less so then have them remove the option to check info on pilots, other than current corporation while in space and have that entered as a service provided by your local locator agent. Cloners Wanted
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.22 10:06:00 - [117] Local should be delayed, scaled by how high the sec status is. So in 1.0, you'd get the current local. In 0.5, you'd get maybe a minute or so of delay. In 0.2, maybe 15 minutes. In 0.0, perhaps either no local at all, or a huge delay. That would let you see people who have been in the system for a while, but would not give insta-alerts unless you're in high-highsec.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.22 10:16:00 - [118] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Local should be delayed, scaled by how high the sec status is. So in 1.0, you'd get the current local. In 0.5, you'd get maybe a minute or so of delay. In 0.2, maybe 15 minutes. In 0.0, perhaps either no local at all, or a huge delay. That would let you see people who have been in the system for a while, but would not give insta-alerts unless you're in high-highsec. That would mean that anyone spending any time in lowsec - mining, for example - would need to scan for possible dangers all the time (with no indication if the ship on scanner is actually an enemy), while people running around get a list of potential targets immediately. Not balanced. -- Gradient forum
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.22 10:55:00 - [119] Not even going to read the rest of the thread as there are way too many e-peens flaying around. Imo, local as it is right now should be removed. I am not sure how to replace it, but I think either of these would be good: 1. Make the scanner function as a radar, i.e. a blip for an incoming ship. A cloaked ship causes no blip. This means ratting in 0.0 gets a whole lot more dangerous, as you never know when you're being watched by a cloaker, and what gang mates that cloaker might have. When you finally see the incoming blip of a battleship, it is too late to warp off and cloak. 2. Keep local but make it so you don't show up in it unless you speak. Keep the number of people in local visible, so a vigilant watcher will know that he is not alone. 3. Remove local and incorporate constellation chat. That gives you an idea of the number of hostiles in the general viscinity, but no their exact location. These ideas have no doubt been discussed already in this thread, but I'm just lending my voice to the ether. Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Noodle Pastaman	Posted - 2007.11.23 16:38:00 - [120] If you want non-consensual PVP go and play counterstrike. EVE for the majority of players is a PVE, building game. People who want to play at pirates are a tiny % of the population who just can't accept they are in the minority

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