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NO BRAKES GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.03 12:12:00 - [91] Having an unsecure TS and letting passwords leak to the public does not constitute hacking.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.10.03 12:38:00 - [92] Originally by: prsr Give me a break, these are just baseless claims. Spying has been part of EVE since the very start. Bob certainly wasn't the first alliance employing a spy network. They did have some high-profile successes because of it that made more people decide to get in on the spying action but so did the GHSC and many others. GHSC spied for the purpose of thieving. But even so, I don't think they had more spies than bob. So, since my claims are completely baseless, I ask that you give me the name of another alliance that had a spy network comparable to BOB's sometime before '05.
Nlewis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.03 12:43:00 - [93] Originally by: Drago Vanguard Edited by: Drago Vanguard on 03/10/2007 05:12:46 Let me clarify some things here... The Goons didn't just enter the RISE TS and run around doing their usual BS. They used various holes in the TS software to obtain server admin and caused damage to the server software itself, necessitating a full server reset. That's not just morally wrong, that's illegal. As far as I know, legal action is currently being looked into. I think the community as a whole is not only sick of the Goons' general asshattery, but their disregard for the law. The Goons are taking their BS too far and there are going to be reprocussions. cool let me know how your frivolous lawsuit goes.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.10.03 12:48:00 - [94] Originally by: Postlatta Mouseanon As a side note: If I were CCP and an alliance purloined a TS password from the opposition, and entered their TS server- I'd pull out the ban stick. Time to ban BoB I guess? ------------------------------------------------ New idea for sovereignty: Sovereignty revisited
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.03 12:56:00 - [95] Originally by: Areena Shay Hey genius. This isn't real life! This is a game! Using real life to justify conduct in a game is pathetic and stupid. Here watch: Well since the CIA spys, it should be ok for NFL teams to spy on other teams! Tell your momma I am coming over to spank you. It's a war game. And in war, you use spies.
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.03 13:04:00 - [96] Spying..its one of those things you have to decide for your self how far it should go. I donÆt like it that much tbh, some small scale alt spying from time to time I'd say yes but disrupting coms and leaking information to forums... nah...not sure tbh. To each is their own I guess but its an interesting topic, but keep it cool, dont point the finger to anyone, its a discussion, not a trial. I actually read an interesting thing in newspaper today that could be applied here. Sort of anyway. Its RL and has no bearing in EVE I admit that but for arguments sake here it is. Of course there might be different laws and interpretations in different countries, states, unions. The interesting part is what ties into things is being said here in regards to HOW information was acquired and (presumably/maybe) used as an advantage. The story is that a big airline got fined for spying/having access to information they should not have had. The two airlines in question used to have mutual booking system etc but the relationship was terminated some time ago. However, the bigger of the two STILL had access to the systems due to the other company not removing their access and the now fined airline did not tell. (That would be the same as having a char leave but forgetting to revoke forum access ) The court wanted to fine them Ç800,000 but it was cut down to Ç500,000 because that it was partially not their fault due to the security screw up of the other company BUT the point still stands, they were found GUILTY of spying just for having access to the information regardless if they had used the information or not. It was ASSUMED that they had used it but as far as I understand it the evidence for that was not very strong, it was just assumed that since they had the access they had used it. Now, this is as I said EVE and not RL but the argument here is that even if you have gotten access from a misunderstanding, a security screw up or what ever and by that mistake gives you access to information you should not have and you dont not alert the proper persons you are maybe guilty of "spying" and could be charged with it. I use the words æmaybeÆ and æcouldÆ last here since the fined airline was found not guilty at first. But it takes little away from the original argument imo (and that was the point of the charge). And this argument does not make any of it 100% correct, its just that, an argument backed with some RL information that I in my infinite wisdom of legal issues* have interpreted. END RANT. Cheers, Lowa * I may or may not have been arrested a few times... Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected]) What if the truth was something else?
Karim alRashid Gallente principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.03 13:06:00 - [97] Originally by: Areena Shay Spying on TS and disabling TS services and forums means you suck at Eve Being in need of TS and forums means you suck at EVE. RIGHT ?
Soros 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.03 13:06:00 - [98] Ingame spying... james bond .. cool metagaming, crashing teamspeak hacking forums etc ... not cool
Moon Kitten GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.10.03 13:15:00 - [99] Originally by: Levka In game spying is fine, but hacking web sites is 2 much imo. BNC and BoB sites were hacked on multiple occasions and its really annoying. So how do you feel about Lallante being in your Alliance? I don't know what it's like in BoB and, frankly, the more I work with them directly the less I am starting to care. -Seleene, [BDCI] <MC>
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.03 13:18:00 - [100] Originally by: Soros metagaming, ... not cool you just spoke against 90% of the alliances ingame.
tesame	Posted - 2007.10.03 13:30:00 - [101] I think spying should be allowed; however, if CCP can give corps away to torture the spy and if necessary POD them with out having to hunt them down an shot them. Give us a button to push that would kill a spy in your corp. Now that would be great
Nlewis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.03 13:33:00 - [102] Originally by: tesame I think spying should be allowed; however, if CCP can give corps away to torture the spy and if necessary POD them with out having to hunt them down an shot them. Give us a button to push that would kill a spy in your corp. Now that would be great this doesn't even make sense
Vando Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.10.03 13:50:00 - [103] Originally by: Nlewis Originally by: tesame I think spying should be allowed; however, if CCP can give corps away to torture the spy and if necessary POD them with out having to hunt them down an shot them. Give us a button to push that would kill a spy in your corp. Now that would be great this doesn't even make sense This is an awesome idea, from the corp window you could have an option 'execute spy'. It would be terrible for catching spies but HILARIOUS for directorate griefing opportunities
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.10.03 15:22:00 - [104] Originally by: Firkragg Originally by: General Apocalypse STUFF To be honest it would be nice if there was a way to give somone the rights to drag people around ts without allowing them to start deleting accounts and stuff. Talk to your superadmin the owner of the server can do that in seconds if he knows his stuff , or let the internal security guy configure the server . Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.10.03 15:22:00 - [105] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Soros metagaming, ... not cool you just spoke against 90% of the alliances ingame. Define Metagaming pls . Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.03 15:50:00 - [106] Originally by: General Apocalypse Define Metagaming pls . again? oy. okie dokie, here goes. a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Examples of metagaming * There is a special set of moves in chess which allows a player to win in four moves. Competitor A has been watching Competitor B play chess, and the past five games in a row Competitor B has attempted to use this four-move win. When Competitor A sits down to play against Competitor B, Competitor A will be metagaming if he/she plays in a way that will easily thwart the four-move checkmate before Competitor B makes it obvious that this is what he/she is doing. * Metagaming is often cyclical. Imagine there is a collectible card game which contains a card X that says "if your opponent controls card Y, he/she loses the game." Card X is very powerful, and so to avoid it most people have stopped playing card Y. These people are metagaming because they have changed their decisions in anticipation of people playing card X. Then, people notice that nobody is playing card Y so they take card X out of their decks, since it is worthless otherwise. This is metagaming again because they have changed their decisions in anticipation of their opponent's decisions. Then, people notice that everyone has stopped playing card X, and so they begin to play card Y again since it's safe. This, yet again, is metagaming. This cycle can continue indefinitely. A recent slang definition of Metagaming, popular among computer and video game fans, is any tactic in a computer or video game that uses one or more features of that game that lie outside the intended gameplay use, or exploit errors in programming structures. If, for example, one took advantage of a bug in the game to gain some advantage, that would be metagaming. An example would be deliberately getting one's character killed in order to return to the last saved game. so, if a corporation/alliance has NEVER used any exploit, or extra knowledge (i.e. on test) to their advantage and does not use external factors to affect the game, or go beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game; then, they've not metagamed. the game environment, if you think about it, would be ingame, and possibly, these forums. outside of that, you'd be outside the limits/environment of the game, because it's not part OF the game.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.03 15:53:00 - [107] if you think about it, you could almost say that anyone "thinking or planning ahead", after studying their opponent, is in fact metagaming. the use of spies is definitely in this category. the use of ts/vent/non-eve-o websites & forums -- they're not part of the game itself, i.e. not under ccp control -- wouldn't all of those also be considered "metagaming"?
Quizzicality	Posted - 2007.10.05 02:53:00 - [108] You obviously have no concept of real-world warfare. It's not just about winning, it's about minimizing losses. -Quizzicality Murky Inc.
CrispyKritters Caldari GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.10.05 05:20:00 - [109] Edited by: CrispyKritters on 05/10/2007 05:20:17 Originally by: Postlatta Mouseanon Edited by: Postlatta Mouseanon on 03/10/2007 04:04:01 Originally by: Areena Shay You say you had a password. Quite possible you hacked. Question for the jury I suspect. Well the address the issue from the standpoint of reality, it doesn't matter how they got the password. In the USA (And I'll assume the EU) using a password which was not intended for you is a felony. In short, any computer system, even one with a sign on it that reads "This has no password but do not access it" is protected by law. Once you access a computer system (or service running on a computer system) without authorization- it becomes a felony. Use of any means to circumvent a security measure (Including a purloined password) just makes the offense aggravated. Apparently... the g00ns admit to committing a felony in the pursuit of playing a game? I am not a lawyer- I'm an IT director. But I think that is what my legal department would say about it. Seems pretty stupid actually. If you need to go that far to play a game something is wrong with your life. But for the record: In game spying is part of the game. Cool. As a side note: If I were CCP and an alliance purloined a TS password from the opposition, and entered their TS server- I'd pull out the ban stick. Please serve us some papers about TS hacking to our lawyers otherwise you're talking out your rearend.
Ahistaja GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.05 07:23:00 - [110] Originally by: CrispyKritters Please serve us some papers about TS hacking to our lawyers otherwise you're talking out your rearend. I dunno man, I totally committed a felony. Is it OK to admit it right here? Ha ha.
Dagam GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.05 08:36:00 - [111] Originally by: Kaldaine Would you like to do any of the above when I say that a BoB member hired a hacker to hack our forums? Would you like to further refute the fact that the same member is the one responsible for getting the T20 scandal into the limelight by not paying said hacker? How come you do not make any accusations on said topic but feel so strongly about the TS incident? This.
Ostr0mir Redshift Riders	Posted - 2007.10.05 09:03:00 - [112] IMHO, spies are not are problem, if necessary precautions are taken. It's as simple as having coverts in neighbour systems. If you don't have 'em, you will get screwed. ----------------------- Si vic pacem? Have a cap fleet!
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.05 09:06:00 - [113] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz So, since my claims are completely baseless, I ask that you give me the name of another alliance that had a spy network comparable to BOB's sometime before '05. Shamis, just give up with the "BoB are the root of all evil" stuff, seriously. I had a corp back in 03/04 which had probably a larger spy network (certainly in terms of % of playerbase) than any that exists today. (Latro Militaris, you can check - there are also related forum posts from back then.) Spying is not new to Eve, BoB didn't start it, and they probably aren't the heaviest users of it. For what it is worth, my network ran mostly on paid informants and double agents (other players, not alts). I used alts only in active target corps, and corps of special interest. I used only information which was provided to me, or access which I was expected to have. To be fair, the out of game methods of communication so popular now were not so widely used then. Gaining access to anything without being given that access never crossed my mind. That isn't playing the game, that is playing the internet. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Uberapan GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.05 12:53:00 - [114] I think spying is just part of Eve's high stakes game and the mere necessity of keeping a spy network and counter-intel just goes to show how interesting this game is and how much is at stake. That's what makes Eve unique. Instead of crying about it you should expect that spies are everywhere and embrace it. It takes a huge amount of work to get into a position of power as a spy, and I think that's very impressive when pulled off correctly. I applaud CCP for creating a game that has spawned such an interesting meta-game. I for one think it's more interesting than the actual game in many ways
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.05 13:58:00 - [115] Originally by: Uberapan I think spying is just part of Eve's high stakes game and the mere necessity of keeping a spy network and counter-intel just goes to show how interesting this game is and how much is at stake. That's what makes Eve unique. Instead of crying about it you should expect that spies are everywhere and embrace it. It takes a huge amount of work to get into a position of power as a spy, and I think that's very impressive when pulled off correctly. I applaud CCP for creating a game that has spawned such an interesting meta-game. I for one think it's more interesting than the actual game in many ways QFT
Stork DK Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2007.10.05 14:10:00 - [116] I so much love to log into my alt account and read the war targets corp chat Lets me know when to make a gtfo! -------------- Originally by: omiNATION Originally by: Triumdicta we're getting a new kind of ore? CAREBEAR ALERT
Laissezfaire Minmatar Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.10.05 14:18:00 - [117] Originally by: Karim alRashid Originally by: Areena Shay Spying on TS and disabling TS services and forums means you suck at Eve Being in need of TS and forums means you suck at EVE. RIGHT ? As does playing with a GUI. GUI's mean you have viewed information that could be used by a spy. Monochrome Green Screen Monitor is the only way to fly.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.10.05 14:54:00 - [118] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Shamis Orzoz So, since my claims are completely baseless, I ask that you give me the name of another alliance that had a spy network comparable to BOB's sometime before '05. Shamis, just give up with the "BoB are the root of all evil" stuff, seriously. I never said bob was the root of all evil. There are plenty of worse people. You are ****s though.
Lunas Feelgood S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.05 15:05:00 - [119] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Shamis Orzoz I never said bob was the root of all evil. There are plenty of worse people. You are **s though. Yeah, thanks for the personal insult Shamis, way to go Captain Generalisation. Still you are entitled to your opinion, even if it is baseless. Personally I have never had a bad word to say about the members of your corp I have met, and I have very much enjoyed socialising and drinking with them. If they are of the same mind as you, then I can respect their opinion because I know they have formed it based on personal experience. Your opinion, however, I can not respect, only accept. Actually Shamis is right you are ** Picture Image changed to link as you may only have 1 image in your signature. -Yipsilanti ([email protected])
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.05 15:07:00 - [120] Originally by: Lunas Feelgood Actually Shamis is right you are ** His 's are different to your **'s. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

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