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Raem Civrie Sons of Enelaise Enelaise	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:04:00 - [31] Originally by: Areena Shay If you have to spy to win in PvP, you really suck. Not just a little either. What, as in any PvP, or territorial conflict? Because you don't win in a large-scale conflict like this without observing subterfuge and espionage. Winning all your battles doesn't automatically win you the war. ---- All roads lead to Catch
Nlewis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:14:00 - [32] just a clarification for some people on TS hacking. entering a password and logging on is not hacking
Areena Shay Shay Trading Company	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:15:00 - [33] Let's be perfectly clear what spying is here. Spying occurs when people intentionally join a corporation to get access to their TS and forum servers and use that information to influence efforts in game. For example, the action of a certain corporation having their spy reset all TS settings shutting down the TS server in the middle of an enormous fleet engagement.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Areena Shay Let's be perfectly clear what spying is here. Spying occurs when people intentionally join a corporation to get access to their TS and forum servers and use that information to influence efforts in game. For example, the action of a certain corporation having their spy reset all TS settings shutting down the TS server in the middle of an enormous fleet engagement. so, in your opinion that is wrong; BUT, it's alright to make a deal with an alliance, say, they pay you X billion isk a month, in exchange for your alliance to protect them and keep them safe in their systems; then, when an attack comes, your alliance leaves them hanging in the breeze, AFTER pocketing quite a few billion isk. that's ok?
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:20:00 - [35] See? It only goes downhill. Perhaps it has NO BRAKES ! I was not referring to any specific incident. Any of the behavior from alts getting rights or forum/ts access to paying people to hack or crash forums is bad. You can argue shades of gray all you want but one thing leads to another.
NO BRAKES GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:23:00 - [36] Originally by: Pezzle See? It only goes downhill. Perhaps it has NO BRAKES ! I was not referring to any specific incident. Any of the behavior from alts getting rights or forum/ts access to paying people to hack or crash forums is bad. You can argue shades of gray all you want but one thing leads to another. It is indeed a slippery slope. However, joining a group in game to report their activities to another group is the virtue of spying. Anything below that can be thought of as reconnaissance. To me the line is drawn when you use brute force to break into secure areas (ex- hacking). Logging in with a legitimate password is a very different thing.
Raem Civrie Sons of Enelaise Enelaise	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:26:00 - [37] Originally by: NO BRAKES Originally by: Pezzle See? It only goes downhill. Perhaps it has NO BRAKES ! I was not referring to any specific incident. Any of the behavior from alts getting rights or forum/ts access to paying people to hack or crash forums is bad. You can argue shades of gray all you want but one thing leads to another. It is indeed a slippery slope. However, joining a group in game to report their activities to another group is the virtue of spying. Anything below that can be thought of as reconnaissance. To me the line is drawn when you use brute force to break into secure areas (ex- hacking). Logging in with a legitimate password is a very different thing. That's the difference. Exploiting trust is ok, breaking into a SQL or deploying a trojan to clear out a hard drive isn't. ---- All roads lead to Catch
EVIL SYNNs Minmatar The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:27:00 - [38] Originally by: Areena Shay Hey genius. This isn't real life! This is a game! Using real life to justify conduct in a game is pathetic and stupid. Here watch: Well since the CIA spys, it should be ok for NFL teams to spy on other teams! Tell your momma I am coming over to spank you. OMG! What will I tell my wife.. I have a Fanboi that wants to spank me. A Fanboi who posts and does not think! NFL teams spying on other teams doesn't happen! ROFLMAO @ OP! A boyfriend who don't spy on his burd, a Mother who don't spy on their newly masturbating boy. Be glad for one thing, the price of Trit is good, don't worry you'll be in 0.0 again soon! NO SIG REQURIED
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:27:00 - [39] Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 02/10/2007 17:28:24 Edited by: Swamp Ziro on 02/10/2007 17:27:32 Originally by: NO BRAKES Originally by: Pezzle See? It only goes downhill. Perhaps it has NO BRAKES ! I was not referring to any specific incident. Any of the behavior from alts getting rights or forum/ts access to paying people to hack or crash forums is bad. You can argue shades of gray all you want but one thing leads to another. It is indeed a slippery slope. However, joining a group in game to report their activities to another group is the virtue of spying. Anything below that can be thought of as reconnaissance. To me the line is drawn when you use brute force to break into secure areas (ex- hacking). Logging in with a legitimate password is a very different thing. Still, it would be nice if there were some game mechanics in place to investigate alt-history better than what's currently in place. Counter-intelligence mechanics at the moment are limited to infiltrating and spying to find out your own spies.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:28:00 - [40] Originally by: Pezzle See? It only goes downhill. Perhaps it has NO BRAKES ! I was not referring to any specific incident. Any of the behavior from alts getting rights or forum/ts access to paying people to hack or crash forums is bad. You can argue shades of gray all you want but one thing leads to another. you were not referring to any specific incident? this is your only post in this thread. have you advertantly revealed your main (which you stated you no longer possess or some such thing), in a thread about spying? this is... ironic?
karttoon	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:43:00 - [41] Originally by: Irrilian Originally by: EVIL SYNNs Yeah anyone that spys FAILS.... CIA FAIL MI6 FAIL KGB FAIL Get over it m8. Spying is part of life, and if your a good FC you put crap out there as well to confuse your enemy! Im sure the above agencies would be extremely grateful if you could provide them with the ability to transfer the conciousness of their agents between people. That is to infiltrate an organisation all they'd have to do is abduct one of its members and overwrite them with a suitable agent. Spying in Eve isnt the problem per se, its the complete lack of any consequences for ones actions thanks to character transfers and alts thats an issue. It would be nice is soldiers had the ability to clone themselves after they die to without any consequences. Comparing real life to eve is dumb.
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:50:00 - [42] not ironic, this is my main. I was replying to Vyres quoting me earlier. Since I have a strong dislike for the pyramid of quotes they are rarely used and you might have to read back, or ignore me entirely, or whatever. As for the spying in varied forms I can recognize and appreciate the distinctions. My opinion on it all is obviously different. If everyone else can put their message out there so can I, right?
Areena Shay Shay Trading Company	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:51:00 - [43] Edited by: Areena Shay on 02/10/2007 17:51:58 Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Areena Shay Let's be perfectly clear what spying is here. Spying occurs when people intentionally join a corporation to get access to their TS and forum servers and use that information to influence efforts in game. For example, the action of a certain corporation having their spy reset all TS settings shutting down the TS server in the middle of an enormous fleet engagement. so, in your opinion that is wrong; BUT, it's alright to make a deal with an alliance, say, they pay you X billion isk a month, in exchange for your alliance to protect them and keep them safe in their systems; then, when an attack comes, your alliance leaves them hanging in the breeze, AFTER pocketing quite a few billion isk. that's ok? Spying on TS and disabling TS services and forums means you suck at Eve and your response is to raise some obscure point completely irrelevant to this discussion as justification? Did you get a degree in debate from ACME or Wal-Mart? Since no doubt this response is way over your head, let's break it down into 2 simple questions: (1) Where did I ever say what you posed is ok? (2) How is your point relevant to a discussion about spying?
Vasili Z Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:53:00 - [44] East, West, North, and South. ---- Everything I say represents my corporation and their views.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:04:00 - [45] Originally by: Areena Shay Edited by: Areena Shay on 02/10/2007 17:51:58 Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Areena Shay Let's be perfectly clear what spying is here. Spying occurs when people intentionally join a corporation to get access to their TS and forum servers and use that information to influence efforts in game. For example, the action of a certain corporation having their spy reset all TS settings shutting down the TS server in the middle of an enormous fleet engagement. so, in your opinion that is wrong; BUT, it's alright to make a deal with an alliance, say, they pay you X billion isk a month, in exchange for your alliance to protect them and keep them safe in their systems; then, when an attack comes, your alliance leaves them hanging in the breeze, AFTER pocketing quite a few billion isk. that's ok? Spying on TS and disabling TS services and forums means you suck at Eve and your response is to raise some obscure point completely irrelevant to this discussion as justification? Did you get a degree in debate from ACME or Wal-Mart? Since no doubt this response is way over your head, let's break it down into 2 simple questions: (1) Where did I ever say what you posed is ok? (2) How is your point relevant to a discussion about spying? ouch, get lost and try to insult folks. you won the intarwabs!!! how does it fit... you're complaining (read - whining like a ***) about spying in the game, which has existed and been employed by EVERY alliance worth a ** for YEARS now. you don't think it's right. so i asked you if you thought some other crap was right or not. i'm sorry if you fail. but feel free to insult me more, since you're not very good at it.
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:08:00 - [46] Originally by: Areena Shay Spying on TS and disabling TS services and forums means you suck at Eve There is a big difference between spying and destroying. The 'line' is very clear to me. You do not destroy other people's out of game infrastructure: forums, teamspeak servers etc. Listening/reading information not intended for you is not destructive in any way. But actively destroying or disabling TS/Forums is definitely unacceptable and illegal (where they bother with internet laws..).
zilllii Squirrel Power	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:12:00 - [47] the fun part in this thread is that the op is a outspoken anti-goon and pro-bob alt from multiple other threads and complains about spies in eve. sarcasm meter just blew up. -------------------------------------------------- Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Love the new need for speed initiative. Pilots involved in a fleet battle can post on the forum and get a reply about wha
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:21:00 - [48] Originally by: zilllii the fun part in this thread is that the op is a outspoken anti-goon and pro-bob alt from multiple other threads and complains about spies in eve. sarcasm meter just blew up. i'm sorry, but looking at http://eve-search.com/thread/504927/page/2#33 i'd have to say someone that ******** is definitely a goon. surely bob alts would NEVER do that sort of thing. it is without e-honour.
Cupdeez Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:49:00 - [49] Originally by: Levka I spy with my little eye something that starts with "O" In game spying is fine, but hacking web sites is 2 much imo. BNC and BoB sites were hacked on multiple occasions and its really annoying. Yeah I thought the same thing because Imperium busted a BOB member for hacking our forums and killboards back in the day. You are in an alliance with 2,700 members if any member hacks someone it comes back to the alliance. If you donÆt know all the 2,700 members to the point were you can say none of them have hacked anyone playing eve then shut your hole.
Monkey Rat Caldari Simtech Productions Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:02:00 - [50] At least you can spy in EVE! Most other games are far inferior in this respect, amongst others. - Sometimes its just not worth chewing through the leather straps in the morning.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:08:00 - [51] Originally by: zilllii the fun part in this thread is that the op is a outspoken anti-goon and pro-bob alt from multiple other threads and complains about spies in eve. sarcasm meter just blew up. I see you have quoted me in sig But you missed a bit, you get a forum reply quicker than the overview updates As to the OP...you been flamed enough, and deservedly. Spying includes things like, watching hostile fleet build up with covert so you know range and ship types. If you're not using intel...then you fail at pvp I, erm, like kill things and stuff
Areena Shay Shay Trading Company	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:17:00 - [52] As I specifically said, I have no problem with in game techniques such as watching hostile fleets. The out of game spying via forums and TS access and crippling TS services are beyond the pale. As for being anti-goon, of course I am. I have great admiration for a number of anti-Bob corps, like IAC. It sickens me that IAC has to align with Goons for any reason. Goons are a virus, pure and simple. As for being pro-Bob, hardly. I fought through the ASCN wars against Bob. But I admit at this point if I had to align with Bob or Goons, I would have to pick Bob. My God that just goes to show how utterly pathetic Goons PR engine is.
Kaldaine GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:19:00 - [53] Edited by: Kaldaine on 02/10/2007 19:22:53 Originally by: Vyres Originally by: Kaldaine Originally by: Vyres Originally by: Pezzle Spying itself may not seem so bad, but an air of tolerance will encourage all the other terrible behavior we have seen. TS/Forum spying, hacking, public smear campaigns and the like. It is bad for the game, being 'a part of the game' is not relevant. Nothing is done so anything goes. Spying does nothing to improve the quality of this game. I really REALLY hope you refering to TS hacking has nothing to do with rise TS or else you should just delete your post its ok Ill edit this one too if you still want to save face. Goonswarm and RISE arent the only alliances to play eve stop taking everything personally. You prolly should not post at all and can try to delete yours but Im gonna leave mine up cause you are dumb and I would like the world to know. Yes your so right I see the errors of my way. Please let me know one other TS hacking incident in oh a year and ill submit to your obvious superior intellect. Let me point out you're (note the 're its a contraction of you are this is just an example for you) errors. You imply actually you say that what we did to RISE was hacking when in fact it was poor security on the part of RISE and a bunch of Goons getting their hands on the TS password. Along with this there have been several incidents in the last year although I believe only one (I think it was to CoW or someone from the North) was a direct, malicious attack from an outside group. Finally nowhere in his post did Pezzle mention Goonswarm, BoB, ASCN, RISE or anyone else who has been targeted by "attacks", which to me is most indicative that he was not actually talking about anyone even though he also just posted to that effect. Hopefully, with your obviously inferior intellect your next post consists of you putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger, ie vis a vis eg ipso facto kill yourself.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:21:00 - [54] Originally by: Areena Shay As I specifically said, I have no problem with in game techniques such as watching hostile fleets. The out of game spying via forums and TS access and crippling TS services are beyond the pale. As for being anti-goon, of course I am. I have great admiration for a number of anti-Bob corps, like IAC. It sickens me that IAC has to align with Goons for any reason. Goons are a virus, pure and simple. As for being pro-Bob, hardly. I fought through the ASCN wars against Bob. But I admit at this point if I had to align with Bob or Goons, I would have to pick Bob. My God that just goes to show how utterly pathetic Goons PR engine is. seeing as goons copied these techniques from older, more experienced corps and alliances...
Kaldaine GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:27:00 - [55] Originally by: Areena Shay As I specifically said, I have no problem with in game techniques such as watching hostile fleets. The out of game spying via forums and TS access and crippling TS services are beyond the pale. Goonswarm has more spies on its forums and TS then most alliances have members. Im betting every single corp that is hostile, was hostile or might think about hostilities has a spy looking at our forums. Thankfully we have never attacked teamspeak services aside from playing around with alliances who are careless with their password.
0August0 Gallente Gooch Unlimited	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:35:00 - [56] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz There is a big difference between spying and destroying. The 'line' is very clear to me. You do not destroy other people's out of game infrastructure: forums, teamspeak servers etc. Listening/reading information not intended for you is not destructive in any way. But actively destroying or disabling TS/Forums is definitely unacceptable and illegal (where they bother with internet laws..). Absolutely correct. . . . Regards, August
Frothgar Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:47:00 - [57] There is a fundamental truth to warfare in that you really don't need to ask your enemy for permission to do anything to them. Its interesting that in some respects I've seen things occur ingame that might formally qualify as a serious moral sin. (A friend befriending and ganking multibillion ISK mission runners effectively killing off months of their effort for personal gain.) I dunno, I've just always believed that the way to win a war is to subject someone to a cost they are unwilling to bear. Thats edgy in a game since what can you realistically do to them? War is not glamorous, its a nasty messy business. I think its silly to emulate warfare and not expect a good chunk of the nastiness to come in.
Areena Shay Shay Trading Company	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:53:00 - [58] Originally by: Kaldaine Edited by: Kaldaine on 02/10/2007 19:22:53 Originally by: Vyres Originally by: Kaldaine Originally by: Vyres Originally by: Pezzle Spying itself may not seem so bad, but an air of tolerance will encourage all the other terrible behavior we have seen. TS/Forum spying, hacking, public smear campaigns and the like. It is bad for the game, being 'a part of the game' is not relevant. Nothing is done so anything goes. Spying does nothing to improve the quality of this game. I really REALLY hope you refering to TS hacking has nothing to do with rise TS or else you should just delete your post its ok Ill edit this one too if you still want to save face. Goonswarm and RISE arent the only alliances to play eve stop taking everything personally. You prolly should not post at all and can try to delete yours but Im gonna leave mine up cause you are dumb and I would like the world to know. Yes your so right I see the errors of my way. Please let me know one other TS hacking incident in oh a year and ill submit to your obvious superior intellect. Let me point out you're (note the 're its a contraction of you are this is just an example for you) errors. You imply actually you say that what we did to RISE was hacking when in fact it was poor security on the part of RISE and a bunch of Goons getting their hands on the TS password. Along with this there have been several incidents in the last year although I believe only one (I think it was to CoW or someone from the North) was a direct, malicious attack from an outside group. Finally nowhere in his post did Pezzle mention Goonswarm, BoB, ASCN, RISE or anyone else who has been targeted by "attacks", which to me is most indicative that he was not actually talking about anyone even though he also just posted to that effect. Hopefully, with your obviously inferior intellect your next post consists of you putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger, ie vis a vis eg ipso facto kill yourself. So in other words, you agree that you did invade their TS. You agree you did it with the intent to malign their TS services. Of course, what you did when you got there is the issue. Did you malign the TS server or did you simply listen? Using the "but Bob did it to me first" defense as justification to do it to someone else is ridiculous.
Delwin Amber GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:57:00 - [59] Someone has obviously never read the Art of War.
Orangir GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 20:01:00 - [60] You know what? **** spies. There I said it. Spies are probably the worst thing in the game at this point. Every time I get on a roll as a HWG some coward spy comes up behind me and backstabs me and my medic, then gets away scott free. At least engineers are able to defend against them, ya know? As a HWG I just get slaughtered by them because I can't turn around fast enough to see them coming. Agreeing with the OP on this one.

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