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Tar Manis	Posted - 2007.10.16 19:27:00 - [61] Edited by: Tar Manis on 16/10/2007 19:29:03 Personally assault ships should mean damage. They should also mean quick. Not slow, easy to die, and hard to use. Give them all more pg and allow them to mount cruiser sized weapons. heh. <--- love this idea. Anyway though for a more realistic idea give them a much much larger bonus to damage so that they basically overtake a cruiser for damage alone without getting into HAC range. Keep their resists the way they area. Basically allow the ishkur to use 5 T2 hammerheads and give it a bit more armor and take away 1 high slot and give it another low. This would be the smaller step between the ishtar and Ishkur. One uses medium drones and one uses heavies + others. The ishtar still has more slots and more overall room to do many things but the Ishkur would be a nice dps in a small package. Their tank should be above par but not cruiser level and their quickness woudl allow them to engage larger ships especially in gangs. If you compare the ishkur to the vexor for example the vexor has a 75m3 drone bay allowing it to field 5 t2 hammerheads and fit a 1600mm plate. This allows for a nice resistance buffer and damage. The ishkur should equal it in damage but not tank. You can also put medium reps onto the vexor for a much nicer tank. The only thing it lacks in comparison to the ishkur may be speed and sig radius. While both are nice they don't make the niche that T2 ships are supposed to fill.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.10.16 19:36:00 - [62] Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already. One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever. ----------------- Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.16 19:46:00 - [63] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already. One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever. or one "base" and one "multi-purpose" AF. ex of enyo and ishkur or vengeance and retribution. both enyo and retri are the embodiment of their respective races' philosophies: the enyo is (well, at least should be) a solid blaster boat with good armor and capable of dishing immense damage at point-blank; and the retri is what amarr should be: trading flexibility for hard hitting lasers and a tank that shrugs off at any other frigate-sized ship. ishkur however is different: trades direct firepower for more flexibility and a larger drone bay; and the vengeance is a bastard son: armor tanking missile spewer with good flexibility. ...that is what I think how Afrigs should be: 1 that is the race mirror through and thru, and the other is less orthodox. that said: I say that the retri needs a 5th turret and more grid, and the enyo a bit mass shaved off. --- planetary interaction idea!
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.16 23:49:00 - [64] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already. One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever. Why not? Yea inties will still tackle as they are loads faster than AF's and more agile. Nothing wrong with wanting a heavy tackler at least to me. As for gank AF's isnt that kind of a joke any gank AF will be outdamaged by pretty much any cruiser and die horribly as a result (where are you web bonus/immunity). So really your left with inties for speed demons a gank AF that cant go toe to toe with anything and cruisers still out damaging them. At least thats how i view it. Love to the Assault Frigate!
Tar Manis	Posted - 2007.10.16 23:59:00 - [65] Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already. One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever. Why not? Yea inties will still tackle as they are loads faster than AF's and more agile. Nothing wrong with wanting a heavy tackler at least to me. As for gank AF's isnt that kind of a joke any gank AF will be outdamaged by pretty much any cruiser and die horribly as a result (where are you web bonus/immunity). So really your left with inties for speed demons a gank AF that cant go toe to toe with anything and cruisers still out damaging them. At least thats how i view it. That's exactly why AF's need to do more damage than Cruisers. They also need a decent tank versus a cruiser. Say 1v1 the cruiser will win most likely if they are both T1 fit. With a fully T2 fit AF the AF should win imo. That should be the amount of difference. Also with a more gank role while maintaining their very nice tank resists this allows them to take on larger ships such as Battleships. Their small sig radius and damage means Battleships will ahve a hard time hitting etc. This could be their role. Of course you could say it's just blobbing but then we should all just ignore HAC's and commandships etc and just all go for BS's. An AF gang would be able to take on things like BC's-> Command Ships-> Battleships and other things in a gang of say 6. Battleships should not be solopwnmobiles and the inty change means that a battleships can be tackled quite easily. However inties won't be doing any damage. A groupe of AF's could come in and pwn the lone battleship without undue force such as needing 10 frigates etc. 3-4 may be enough if they can do cruiser damage.
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.10.17 00:03:00 - [66] Originally by: Nian Banks Edited by: Nian Banks on 16/10/2007 17:17:54 Edited by: Nian Banks on 16/10/2007 17:09:25 stuff I'm not bothered about Harpy (Gank) Caldari Frigate Skill bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range per level. Assault Ships Skill bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking and 10% bonus to webber resistance per level. Role bonus: 120% bonus to afterburner speed increase. more stuff If this happens I will fly my Harpy around all day and absolutely destroy any small ships I see as well as put the fear of god into nano-cruisers. Make it so. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Roger Douglas Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.10.17 02:08:00 - [67] Ever hear of a pilot named Kaker? He used to visit around the north on a nightly basis flying an Ishkur. More than once I watched local or intel channels reporting that his little assault frig taking out a ratting BS or BC. I agree with the thoughts on making the assault frigate tough as hell through resists, or boost their ability to active tank. I love to fly this shiptype, and I'd love to see it boosted a bit, since most people I fly with would rather have an inty pilot over a assault frig any day.
Paulson The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.17 04:52:00 - [68] I love assault frigates and want to see their role defined and improved too. like many people have pointed out the following is needed:\ 1. Mass/sig radius Reduction Seriously CCP a Frigate is supposed to me more agile than a cruiserand as it stands this is one of the biggest problems. 2. A real 4th Bonus As already suggested turning the resist bonus into a native hull bonus and giving web immunity when using Afterburners only will make assault frigates fast enough to tie down bigger ships when flying in groups but vunerable to faster ships that can tackle then (IMHO a AF needs to go over 1km/s min atm just to help it stay alive. I would like to see AF's used as either anti recon/dictor/heavydictor so a assult frigates primary role is the protection of cap ships from being bubbled or to defend ships against roaming gangs when used in groups or even as a fast incursion ship for deep raids so it is fast enough to gank a target in a gang and then split but with resistances that enable it to fight its way out when needed. =============================================== Are we there yet?
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.17 07:05:00 - [69] Sniping harpies work pretty darn well tbh.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.17 07:29:00 - [70] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 17/10/2007 07:29:18 Originally by: Paulson I would like to see AF's used as either anti recon/dictor/heavydictor so a assult frigates primary role is the protection of cap ships from being bubbled This actually is an intresting idea that also crossed my mind. Assault frigates could be interpreted as ASSAULT SHIPS meaning they can jumpinto a bubble, be immune to capwarfare, bubbles and just do that blast targets in bits and be tough little annoyances. Penetrate enemy lines and assault them in groups. Id rather have them get the initial gank/tackle role or this above mentioned one then making them a frig sized solo ship. That might be not so balanced...
Ban Shui Eve University	Posted - 2007.10.17 07:34:00 - [71] I really like the idea of assault ships getting some AB bonus. That would really give them a distinct role.
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.18 02:25:00 - [72] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Id rather have them get the initial gank/tackle role or this above mentioned one then making them a frig sized solo ship. That might be not so balanced... Couldn't be any worse than the 3 billion vagas and nano-ishtars running around though could it? Love to the Assault Frigate!
Praxis1452	Posted - 2007.10.18 02:42:00 - [73] blah assault ships should be about damage. Damage I say!!! give them more!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.18 02:42:00 - [74] Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Id rather have them get the initial gank/tackle role or this above mentioned one then making them a frig sized solo ship. That might be not so balanced... Couldn't be any worse than the 3 billion vagas and nano-ishtars running around though could it? True, this would atleast give each race a small solo ship. Fair enough.
Maedoc	Posted - 2007.10.18 03:35:00 - [75] Honestly, I've always thought of my Assault Ships as throwaway ships, enough punch to do some damage, and enough speed to get away. Of course I use a T2 outfitted Retribution, it also makes for a great ratting ship in low sec and 0.0, other than that I've always thought that was their niche.
NCP S2	Posted - 2007.10.18 04:11:00 - [76] I was super stoked when I got my first AF, fitted a Wolf, and played around with some rats to get the feel of it. Sad thing is, I lost all of that excitement when I realized that the only thing I could take out in an AF is a T1 Frig or another AF. Too slow to catch an inty, and that's a good thing, but crappy damage output, and the current tank is okay, but melts too quickly on anything bigger than a Frig. Comparing a Hawk with a Rifter and say, a Rupture, for a good overall analyses: Rifter with the same fit as a Hawk does get beat damage wise by the 4th turret, but not in a way to really pay for all the extra training. However the Rupture with significantly less training by FAR out damages the Hawk. Hawk vs Rupture in an all out brawl, Rupture should be walking away with that one. Yeah you'll have some slight tracking issues due to the bigger guns, but the Hawk is definately slow enough to get pegged most of the time. (was using T2 small AC's and T1 med AC's for the comparisons) I think Cruiser sized weapons on a Frig sized ship is a bit much, but definately, an Assault Frigate should be able to do comparable damage. More of a damage bonus, and maybe a comparable tank to a T1 Cruiser as well, on a Frig, would make it worth it. I'd love to fly the AF again, as I love flying the small ships, but why when they aren't worth it? I'm down for a positive change, but let's not go overboard at the same time. -S2
Chomapuraku Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.18 04:41:00 - [77] it'd be nice if CCP scrapped the ewar frigs altogether and stacked that role on to the AFs. tanked-out frigs with ewar capabilities. given that the ishtar is a mini version of the domi with a combo resist/speed tank, why not give AF's capabilities on par with t1 cruisers, but with smaller sigs, better speed/maneuverability, and tanking bonuses? maybe give the harpy ewar capabilities on par with a blackbird
Ron Lycan	Posted - 2007.10.18 05:13:00 - [78] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already. One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever. or one "base" and one "multi-purpose" AF. ex of enyo and ishkur or vengeance and retribution. both enyo and retri are the embodiment of their respective races' philosophies: the enyo is (well, at least should be) a solid blaster boat with good armor and capable of dishing immense damage at point-blank; and the retri is what amarr should be: trading flexibility for hard hitting lasers and a tank that shrugs off at any other frigate-sized ship. ishkur however is different: trades direct firepower for more flexibility and a larger drone bay; and the vengeance is a bastard son: armor tanking missile spewer with good flexibility. ...that is what I think how Afrigs should be: 1 that is the race mirror through and thru, and the other is less orthodox. that said: I say that the retri needs a 5th turret and more grid, and the enyo a bit mass shaved off. I Agree. An Example of the Enyo. I'm an AF Pilot (Although I don't fly them anymore because they are more trouble then they are worth). Some people have a playstyle to flying it with Rails and with the odd ball missile launcher. But honestly....The Ishkur is better at that role. Long range with the drones and can tank if needed. Rails on an Enyo DO NOT do more damage then a fitted Ishkur. It should and needs to be a Made Blaster Boat, Its of Gallente Design not a Harpy. It ****es me off to see that the Jag and Wolf can outdamage something that (passes off gimped) as a Gallente Blaster Boat as the minnie ships are faster and have double damage bonus' with Enyo's Single bonus. Being a Assault Frigate, Enyo cant be a blaster boat as once its webbed its toast (It goes for all AF's). I'm all for Signing for AF's to get a Web Resistence Role Bonus. Enyo needs to lose the Optimal bonus and get its T1 counterparts Falloff and damage bonus. Using Afterburners does sound fun as just about every ship (except some exceptional Command ships) in game fits MWDs to get in Range. It would give it more use if there was changes. /Signed for AF Love
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.18 08:02:00 - [79] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Id rather have them get the initial gank/tackle role or this above mentioned one then making them a frig sized solo ship. That might be not so balanced... Couldn't be any worse than the 3 billion vagas and nano-ishtars running around though could it? True, this would atleast give each race a small solo ship. Fair enough. o/ to accepting my p.o.v. :) On a serious note though, these ships got potential just need a slight tweak or well any tweak really. Love to the Assault Frigate!
Paulson The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.18 08:30:00 - [80] Originally by: Kristoffer Sniping harpies work pretty darn well tbh. My weapon of choice for anti tackler work in todays 'lag online' Also works well in roaming gangs using Faction AM as you can get an optimal of 20KM (Ideal for gate work) and with a couple of mag stabs does very good damage for its size. For solo gank work I go for a MSE II Tech II Ions and faction AM. Fast enough to slip in gank at a belt and slip out again. However the Ishkur and the Harpy are exceptions due to them having bonuses that give them very specific roles which means they work very well in them. Even then for me to get any type of fitting on a Harpy I have very high fitting skills (AWU 4 for example and other skills at 5). I also do not bother active tanking these ships at all. Resists and hitpoints to buy me time to run away. active tank is useless due to lack of cap and to do real damage you need tech II (which ups the skill requirment more). Even then I will still fly a Harpy because I find it fun. =============================================== Are we there yet?
Glach Duwat	Posted - 2007.10.18 17:11:00 - [81] I have been wondering the role of an Assault frigate for the longest time. The best I could come up with was that it makes a GREAT solo pirate ship. I mean, an competent AF pilot can take out a T1 cruiser of a noob or less than competent Cruiser Pilot. But for griefing frigs and pirating haulers, this ship is wonderful. They are also great for low sec ratting. The other thing is, an Anti Destroyer Role. I've seen a wolf pop Destroyers before said destroyer could lock. I was able to tank a rocket-fit Flycatcher (interdictor) in my Jaguar. And you don't need an "anti-web" AF. There already is one. Wolfs can hit outside of web range with AC's and Ranged ammo. Two AF's can make short work of Cruisers. Single AF's Make GREAT pirate ships for haulers and solo miners, noobie cruiser pilots, and other frigs. AF Gangs can be a menace for a lot of ships. Make great drone killers too. They aren't THAT expensive, and they have plenty of niche roles to fill. Sure, other ships can be used to do the same thing, but AF's are more fun to do it in.
VJ Maverick Caldari Maverick Specialized Services	Posted - 2007.10.18 18:29:00 - [82] Bonus to AB and resistance to webs would make the AF's true dogfighters. If I could have those two bonuses, that would fix the ship class for me and make me fly them on a regular basis. Originally by: Marquis Dean As with most threads in Ships & Mods, it ended up with Ryysa yelling at everyone.
Redora Gallente Universal Exports	Posted - 2007.10.18 18:47:00 - [83] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already. One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever. or one "base" and one "multi-purpose" AF. ex of enyo and ishkur or vengeance and retribution. both enyo and retri are the embodiment of their respective races' philosophies: the enyo is (well, at least should be) a solid blaster boat with good armor and capable of dishing immense damage at point-blank; and the retri is what amarr should be: trading flexibility for hard hitting lasers and a tank that shrugs off at any other frigate-sized ship. ishkur however is different: trades direct firepower for more flexibility and a larger drone bay; and the vengeance is a bastard son: armor tanking missile spewer with good flexibility. ...that is what I think how Afrigs should be: 1 that is the race mirror through and thru, and the other is less orthodox. that said: I say that the retri needs a 5th turret and more grid, and the enyo a bit mass shaved off. QFT. As I said before, get rid of the Optimal bonus on the Enyo. It'd be much better as another 5% damage bonus to small hybrids, more befitting the "Gallente Way", and make it into the 'mini-deimos' it's name (Enyo) proclaims it to be. --- Redora http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=543553
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.18 18:50:00 - [84] Originally by: Glach Duwat And you don't need an "anti-web" AF. There already is one. Wolfs can hit outside of web range with AC's and Ranged ammo. Youre missing the point. The point is that you could then web-tackle a ship in small gang warfare (to stop em from reaching a gate for example) without needing to have a larger ship then your opponent. Right now, inties arent in this role and those doing the webbing in these situations are the bigger ships with more tank wich is odd because their primary roles arent tackling...
Skraeling Shortbus Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.18 18:51:00 - [85] Edited by: Skraeling Shortbus on 18/10/2007 18:53:01 Originally by: Glach Duwat (A).I mean, an competent AF pilot can take out a T1 cruiser of a noob or less than competent Cruiser Pilot. (B).The other thing is, an Anti Destroyer Role. (C).And you don't need an "anti-web" AF. There already is one. Wolfs can hit outside of web range with AC's and Ranged ammo. (D).Two AF's can make short work of Cruisers. Single AF's Make GREAT pirate ships for haulers and solo miners, noobie cruiser pilots, and other frigs. AF Gangs can be a menace for a lot of ships. (A). A competent Cruiser pilot could do both just as easily and cheaper and have more dps. (B). People fly destroyers? They die to anything fast. (C). Right, and for those of us that don't fly minmatar AF's our options are what again? Last i checked small blasters were well within web range. (D). A well fit cruiser can make even shorter work of a cruiser. Cruiser gangs would be even deadlier than an AF gang. I pirated in a vexor and it worked great :) My point being that there really is no reason to use a more expensive less effective ship, when a T1 cruiser can do all the above jobs just as easily and in some cases better. Love to the Assault Frigate!
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.10.18 21:21:00 - [86] Giving Assault Frigates a web resist bonus is an awesome idea. 25% web resist bonus is not quite good enough though. I really feel that a 50% web resist bonus is not going to cause that much trouble.
Neuromandis	Posted - 2007.10.19 00:14:00 - [87] I am in for any idea that improves assault ships, they need it. Even just giving them a true 4th bonus would make me happy. I tend to think about it the following way. Interceptors are very nice tacklers, but their strength is also their serious weakness - being speedtanked, they simply cannot web with regularity because once they get webbed back, they die horribly and fast. Heavier ships might do the trick of webbing the target, but honestly, it feels wrong to use a cruiser or bigger for tackling. Apart from the fact that it is up to the fitting to make fast a ship that is (or should be) slower by design, their midslots can be put to a lot better use with more expensive (in fitting or cap) modules et.c. Yes, if tackling with battleships was the best option people would use them for it, but simply put something smaller should have the role to web stuff. Enter assault frigate (one of each for each race, anyway). Since they use conventional instead of speed tanking, they do not explode at the simple notion of a web. So it can follow that either an even better tank or a bonus to stasis webifiers (slight bonus to webber range or BIG bonus to webber effectiveness) would colose the circle: Inties - specialised scrambling boats, assault frigs - specialised webber boats. Because any way you spin it, inties CAN tackle but they sure as hell don't seem to be pretty good at holding a target webbed for long. That's for one of the two assault frigs. The other should be damage, pure and simple. Assault ship, repeat after me. So it would be damage. That, or immunity to bubbles so that they can really get behind enemy lines - but that would be so freakishly overpowered for any role BUT assaults that I don't even wanna think about it. Damage please. At least that would be ONE idea to help AF's. As I said, I am in for ANY kind of improvement to them... --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
Mr Bodacious mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.10.19 04:42:00 - [88] I say keep them the way they are with everything, but add an 80% web efficiency reduction on them, so that you need to fit 2 webs to really pin one down.
Flurren	Posted - 2007.10.19 05:10:00 - [89] Edited by: Flurren on 19/10/2007 05:15:04 Edited by: Flurren on 19/10/2007 05:12:54 Edited by: Flurren on 19/10/2007 05:11:39 Edited by: Flurren on 19/10/2007 05:10:53 Some of these ideas have been said before but ill just mention my take on all this. Giving AFs a 50% bonus to web resist (taking fleeting to 45%, normal to 37.5% etc) would really give them a chance to speed tank like an inty does but inside web range and actually make them worth their cost vs just buying a cruiser as they wouldnt have to go tank to tank with bigger ships when getting into web range. If this is to be their role bonus then each AF should also get a 4th bonus probably on RoF replacing the current resist one and resists should be made innate. An AF should get close to the damage of a cruiser imo as they cost more than one anyway and are uninsurable and a damage bonus would help here. A very small reduction to mass (still making them heavier than frigates but maybe only 30% heavier instead of 70% in most cases) would be very welcome also but is maybe too much to ask for combined with the web resist bonus and 4th real bonus. Besides all that certain races have problems with individual AFs. The wolf for example is a great ship but has two glaring resist holes on its armor where most armor tanking AFs only have one. As AFs are more tanky ships (making them versatile in combat because they can afford to take enemy fire for a bit longer before popping so can afford to move between advantageous positions through ones that are less so) i think its important that one can mount a proper tank on them (for a frigate). Maybe this weakness on the wolf is intended but it seems like thats just the way it worked out after all the AFs were made and could do with a fix. I dont know if the other races AFs are particularly hard to tank so i cant comment. Also again using minmatar as an example i think the jag and the wolf need their range bonuses switched back around. A jaguar with its 3 meagre turrets needs to use autocannons to do any sort of respectable dps and with its higher speed and agility is more suited to getting in close. Obviously i only pilot minnie frigs at the moment so thats why im talking about them. I guess the only other thing i could ask for would be a 50% - 100% bonus on afterburner as it would be really nice to finally be able to pvp somewhat with this mod. However a 300% (using T2) speed boost with no sig radius penalty is maybe a bit over the top with all the other changes i mentioned.
Nexus Kinnon Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2007.10.19 07:53:00 - [90] Switch the goddamn falloff and optimal bonuses on the wolf and jaguar. The wolf is an arty boat in the tradition of the Muninn; and the Jaguar is the predecessor of the Vagabond (shield tanked AC boat). Also, a proper fourth bonus plz.

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