Originally by: Caithan ArcFade

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Hmmm, I'm trying to imagine what role's they would give to the Caldari AFs =/

All I know is that when the patch comes around I'm definetly staying in my Inty.

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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I think an interesting option would be web immunity? Make them heavy tacklers or somthing.. just an idea of course.

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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I think an interesting option would be web immunity? Make them heavy tacklers or somthing.. just an idea of course.

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Originally by: SengH

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errm if you havent forgotten theres something called neuts which can still screw frigs over greatly.

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Originally by: Law Enforcer

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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I think an interesting option would be web immunity? Make them heavy tacklers or somthing.. just an idea of course.

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web immunity with a tank buff would make them great heavy tacklers.
I support this idea.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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One suggestion would be to change my above named bonus suggestion from "5% bonus to web range" to a "5% speed reduction ignorance per level". Would mean at AF lvl5 youd get 65% speed reduced by a 90% webber. That might be right on balance when I think about it a bit.

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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How about this for bonuses?

Retribution (Gank)
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret cap use and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level
Role Bonus: 100% Bonus to afterburner speed increase and a 25% Bonus to microwarp drive speed increase.

Vengeance (Tank)
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to armor resistances and 5% bonus to cap recharge rate per level
Role Bonus: 20% bonus to armor hitpoints

Harpy (Gank)
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per level
Role Bonus: 100% Bonus to afterburner speed increase and a 25% Bonus to microwarp drive speed increase.

Hawk (Tank)
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 5% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
Role Bonus: 20% bonus to shield hitpoints

Enyo (Gank)
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per skill level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and 7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Tracking Speed per level
Role Bonus: 100% Bonus to afterburner speed increase and a 25% Bonus to microwarp drive speed increase.

Ishkur (Tank)
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per skill level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and +5 Drone Bay capacity per level
Role Bonus: 37.5% bonus to Armor Repairer effectiveness

Wolf (Gank)
Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile damage bonus and 7.5% bonus to tracking per level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile Turret damage and 10% falloff per level
Role Bonus: 100% Bonus to afterburner speed increase and a 25% Bonus to microwarp drive speed increase.

Jaguar (Tank)
Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile damage bonus and 7.5% bonus to tracking per level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% Small Projectile Turret optimal range and 5% projectile damage per level.
Role Bonus: 37.5% bonus to Shield Booster effectiveness

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Wolf (gank)

Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus:
+5% Small Projectile Damage bonus and
+10% falloff per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus:
+5% Small Projectile Turret damage and
+5% Small Projectile rate of fire

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Originally by: Jason Marshall

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The iskur is one of THE best anti-interceptor boats out there.

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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How about this for bonuses?

Retribution (Gank)
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret cap use and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level
Role Bonus: 100% Bonus to afterburner speed increase and a 25% Bonus to microwarp drive speed increase.

Vengeance (Tank)
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to rocket damage and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to armor resistances and 5% bonus to cap recharge rate per level
Role Bonus: 20% bonus to armor hitpoints

Harpy (Gank)
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per level
Role Bonus: 100% Bonus to afterburner speed increase and a 25% Bonus to microwarp drive speed increase.

Hawk (Tank)
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 5% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
Role Bonus: 20% bonus to shield hitpoints

Enyo (Gank)
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per skill level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and 7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Tracking Speed per level
Role Bonus: 100% Bonus to afterburner speed increase and a 25% Bonus to microwarp drive speed increase.

Ishkur (Tank)
Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret falloff and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per skill level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and +5 Drone Bay capacity per level
Role Bonus: 37.5% bonus to Armor Repairer effectiveness

Wolf (Gank)
Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile damage bonus and 7.5% bonus to tracking per level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile Turret damage and 10% falloff per level
Role Bonus: 100% Bonus to afterburner speed increase and a 25% Bonus to microwarp drive speed increase.

Jaguar (Tank)
Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile damage bonus and 7.5% bonus to tracking per level.
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% Small Projectile Turret optimal range and 5% projectile damage per level.
Role Bonus: 37.5% bonus to Shield Booster effectiveness

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Originally by: Locke Ateid

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Wolf (gank)

Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus:
+5% Small Projectile Damage bonus and
+10% falloff per level

Assault Ships Skill Bonus:
+5% Small Projectile Turret damage and
+5% Small Projectile rate of fire

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Triple damage bonus, it will done.

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Originally by: Rid**** Valer

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There needs to be a clear comment from CCP as to what role AFS have exactly. This can be used to pick a bonus. As is, tackling is already the hallmark of another t2 frig (ints). Even with a bonus, ints would do it better (and they should). Anti-frig is already taken by destroyers (even though they suck).

As I see it, AFs are designed to be hard to kill while inflicting heavy dps (for a frig).

1. Remove the wasted resistance bonus and make it part of the ship stats.

2. Minimize the effect of the "hole resistance". It should still be lower, but not as much as currently. Their limited slot layouts are enough to prevent getting huge across the board resistances. As is, using a slot to plug your hole means you have almost nothing left to boost the remaining resistances.

2. Possible Bonuses
3a. Add another resistance bonus, or a bonus to reduce sig. Both would make AFs harder to hit/kill.

3b. Add a boost to shield hps/recharge/boost or armor repair/hps. Or a cap reduction for using shield boost or armor repair mods.

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Originally by: Grimpak

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the Afrig issue is something that needs to be solved, but do we need 2 thread about it?

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Hawk (Tank)
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 5% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
Role Bonus: 20% bonus to shield hitpoints

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Originally by: The Lamentress

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Hawk (Tank)
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 5% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
Role Bonus: 20% bonus to shield hitpoints

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A bit rich don't you think

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: The Lamentress

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Hawk (Tank)
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 5% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
Role Bonus: 20% bonus to shield hitpoints

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A bit rich don't you think

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I agree, AFs dont really need more tank. They need a role that they can actually fullfil = one gank AF and one web/tackling AF for each race imo.

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: The Lamentress

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Hawk (Tank)
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 5% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
Role Bonus: 20% bonus to shield hitpoints

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A bit rich don't you think

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I agree, AFs dont really need more tank. They need a role that they can actually fullfil = one gank AF and one web/tackling AF for each race imo.

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A Role you say? Whats more powerful a role than the "Ship that just won't die"? That's a pretty hot in the pants role in my humble opinion! It just keeps on going on. A ship class thats sole main role is to take the hits and shrug them off is sweet.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: The Lamentress

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Hawk (Tank)
Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 5% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to missile velocity and 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
Role Bonus: 20% bonus to shield hitpoints

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A bit rich don't you think

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I agree, AFs dont really need more tank. They need a role that they can actually fullfil = one gank AF and one web/tackling AF for each race imo.

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A Role you say? Whats more powerful a role than the "Ship that just won't die"? That's a pretty hot in the pants role in my humble opinion! It just keeps on going on. A ship class thats sole main role is to take the hits and shrug them off is sweet.

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Thats the job of a battleships methinks :-)

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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Thread seems to be going along nicely, maybe i should make this my crusade and link it in my sig :)

LOVE TO THE AF's!

Theres a reason why I still have this skill at level 1 and most only train it to IV for Hacs.. ^_^

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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Some of the ideas listed here won't even invalidate cruisers or intys. Intys will be faster and cruisers will still do more dps think there can be an easily attained middle ground.

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Originally by: Raxlar Kalimar

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I am liking the 25% web imunity idea it would be exactly what they need. Well wither that or an additional bonus but the 25% web imunity has my vote.

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Originally by: LUKEC

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Just giving them some new bonuses won't change concept of worthless ship. Still costs more than t1 cruiser and just as much survivability as cruiser have. Maybe if mwds are removed from game these ships will exist again, till then... meh.

It's same as with deimos, the new ship looks cool on paper but there's still only 1.5 hacs out there(vaga and nano isthar)

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Originally by: Grimpak

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what if they were immune to webs? I can see them being pretty much survivable if maintaining the same stats (bar the bonuses) and giving them web immunity.

sure they are slower than your normal frigate, but they can't be webbed to compensate such shortcome.

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Originally by: Malcanis

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Do AFs really need to be even heavier and slower than the already are? They're already horribly vulnerable.

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Originally by: Marquis Dean

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As with most threads in Ships & Mods, it ended up with Ryysa yelling at everyone.

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Originally by: CherniyVolk

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I think the resistances for Assault Ships should be inherent to the ship, and all the current declared resistance bonuses are converted into AfterBurner or other type of bonus.

I don't agree with the Tank and Gank philosophy, I don't agree with the Gank and semi-Interceptor role either.

The best Assault Frigates I think are either the Wolf or Jaguar and the Ishkur. The Minmatar because they are quite fast, and the Ishkur just because of the versatility and range of a drone boat.

For most of the other AFs, they are kinda crippled. The First Thing CCP Needs To Do is to give the Assault Frigates the reduced sig-radii back. Their sig-radius used to be as small or smaller than interceptors. Making them a little more usable. But this was said to be a Bug and they "fixed" it. :(

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Originally by: Luke Lor'aul

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Decrease base mineral cost in order to decrease the cost to manufacture them.
Give them a role bonus of 100% AB
Boost their tank
Give an ROF bonus, perhaps a 5% damage decrease or increase
Decrease how much a webber effects them
Make them dogfighting ships

I will fly this ship every day then.

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Originally by: Luke Lor'aul

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Decrease base mineral cost in order to decrease the cost to manufacture them.
Give them a role bonus of 100% AB
Boost their tank
Give an ROF bonus, perhaps a 5% damage decrease or increase
Decrease how much a webber effects them
Make them dogfighting ships

I will fly this ship every day then.

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Originally by: VJ Maverick

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The most fun I've ever had in this game was flying around in in a Rifter, orbiting at close range, twisting, turning, and weaving in between enemy(npc) cruisers and battlecruisers, dogfighting frigs by the seat of my pants, knowing that a a few hits of a big gun will vaporize my ship but also knowing that my speed keeps me alive. Sadly, in PvP, the use of webs make such a fighting style impossible. But I wish it were possible.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Hawk (tackler)

Caldari Frigate Skill Bonus:
+5% bonus to Missile Kinetic Damage and
+10% bonus to missile velocity

Assault Ships Skill Bonus:
+7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per level
+5% Stasis Web range per level

------------------------------------

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already.

One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever.

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already.

One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever.

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already.

One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever.

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Why not? Yea inties will still tackle as they are loads faster than AF's and more agile. Nothing wrong with wanting a heavy tackler at least to me. As for gank AF's isnt that kind of a joke any gank AF will be outdamaged by pretty much any cruiser and die horribly as a result (where are you web bonus/immunity).

So really your left with inties for speed demons a gank AF that cant go toe to toe with anything and cruisers still out damaging them.

At least thats how i view it.

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Edited by: Nian Banks on 16/10/2007 17:17:54
Edited by: Nian Banks on 16/10/2007 17:09:25

*stuff I'm not bothered about*

Harpy (Gank)
Caldari Frigate Skill bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range per level.
Assault Ships Skill bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking and 10% bonus to webber resistance per level.
Role bonus: 120% bonus to afterburner speed increase.

*more stuff*

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Originally by: Paulson

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I would like to see AF's used as either anti recon/dictor/heavydictor so a assult frigates primary role is the protection of cap ships from being bubbled

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Id rather have them get the initial gank/tackle role or this above mentioned one then making them a frig sized solo ship. That might be not so balanced...

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Id rather have them get the initial gank/tackle role or this above mentioned one then making them a frig sized solo ship. That might be not so balanced...

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Couldn't be any worse than the 3 billion vagas and nano-ishtars running around though could it?

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Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already.

One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever.

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or one "base" and one "multi-purpose" AF.

ex of enyo and ishkur or vengeance and retribution.

both enyo and retri are the embodiment of their respective races' philosophies: the enyo is (well, at least should be) a solid blaster boat with good armor and capable of dishing immense damage at point-blank; and the retri is what amarr should be: trading flexibility for hard hitting lasers and a tank that shrugs off at any other frigate-sized ship.


ishkur however is different: trades direct firepower for more flexibility and a larger drone bay; and the vengeance is a bastard son: armor tanking missile spewer with good flexibility.



...that is what I think how Afrigs should be: 1 that is the race mirror through and thru, and the other is less orthodox.


that said: I say that the retri needs a 5th turret and more grid, and the enyo a bit mass shaved off.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Id rather have them get the initial gank/tackle role or this above mentioned one then making them a frig sized solo ship. That might be not so balanced...

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Couldn't be any worse than the 3 billion vagas and nano-ishtars running around though could it?

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True, this would atleast give each race a small solo ship. Fair enough.

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Originally by: Kristoffer

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Sniping harpies work pretty darn well tbh.

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Originally by: Marquis Dean

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As with most threads in Ships & Mods, it ended up with Ryysa yelling at everyone.

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Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Why a tackling AF? That's silly and the inty's role already.

One TANK and one GANK AF should be the layout. Be nice to see some heavily tanked af's out thar, ratting or whatever.

---

or one "base" and one "multi-purpose" AF.

ex of enyo and ishkur or vengeance and retribution.

both enyo and retri are the embodiment of their respective races' philosophies: the enyo is (well, at least should be) a solid blaster boat with good armor and capable of dishing immense damage at point-blank; and the retri is what amarr should be: trading flexibility for hard hitting lasers and a tank that shrugs off at any other frigate-sized ship.


ishkur however is different: trades direct firepower for more flexibility and a larger drone bay; and the vengeance is a bastard son: armor tanking missile spewer with good flexibility.



...that is what I think how Afrigs should be: 1 that is the race mirror through and thru, and the other is less orthodox.


that said: I say that the retri needs a 5th turret and more grid, and the enyo a bit mass shaved off.

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Originally by: Glach Duwat

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And you don't need an "anti-web" AF. There already is one. Wolfs can hit outside of web range with AC's and Ranged ammo.

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Originally by: Glach Duwat

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(A).I mean, an competent AF pilot can take out a T1 cruiser of a noob or less than competent Cruiser Pilot.

(B).The other thing is, an Anti Destroyer Role.

(C).And you don't need an "anti-web" AF. There already is one. Wolfs can hit outside of web range with AC's and Ranged ammo.

(D).Two AF's can make short work of Cruisers. Single AF's Make GREAT pirate ships for haulers and solo miners, noobie cruiser pilots, and other frigs. AF Gangs can be a menace for a lot of ships.

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Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

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I think an interesting option would be web immunity?

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Originally by: sakana

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AFs are only good for pve.

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Originally by: Drek Grapper

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The AB bonus and Web immunity bonus are the best solutions i have heard so far. Also make them a bit lighter. These ships should be able to go toe to toe with T1 or semi T2 fit cruisers and these changes would ensure that.

My reasoning for this is that they need more skills to fly and are Assault Ships after all... so hey, let's let them Assault stuff a little bigger than they are and still stand a chance of winning.

Man it would be awesome to see these ships become popular and would add another dimension to pvp.

Come on CCP. Sort it.

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Originally by: Graalum

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Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 06:31:57


I read most of the thread, and saw alot of decent ideas.

Their intended role is pretty clear, a frigate that can tank and gank. The problems involved are pretty clear, they are slow, hard to maneuver, and don't really tank or gank all that well. Several suffer from mixed weapon systems, or highslots with no turret or launcher slot.

to improve this, all af's need the following changes made: 20% increase in velocity over their t1 equivilents, 10% better agility mods than their t1 equilivents, 5% greater weight from t1 equivilents, and a slight decrease in signature, to put them between t1 their t1 varient and their racial interceptor. They also could use a 5-10% hitpoint buff, perhaps more cap, and need to be cheaper to build. Finally, they all need to have their role narrowed down (ie arty on a wolf, missiles on a hawk, etc) and be made slightly easier to fit.

In general, af's should have 5 weapon slots, 2 damage mods, a tanking mod, and a miscellaneous range/tracking/falloff/etc mod depending on the weapon focus of the ship or a special characteristic of the ship (harpy, hawk, ishkur)

For instance:

Harpy
5/4/2 layout, 5 turret points
frigate skill bonuses: 10% optimal + 5% shield resist
af skill bonuses: 10% optimal + 5% damage
Hawk
5/4/2 layout, 5 missile points
frigate skill bonuses: 5% rof, 10% missile velocity
af skill bonuses: 5% kinetic damage, 5% shield resist
Jaguar
5/3/3 layout, 5 turret points
frigate skill bonuses: 5% rof 5% damage
af skill bonuses: 10% falloff, 5% velocity
Wolf
5/2/4 layout, 5 turret points,
frigate skill bonuses: 5% damage, 10% optimal range
af skill bonuses: 5% rof, 7.5% tracking
Retribution
5/2/4 layout, 5 turret points
frigate skill bonuses: 10% reduction cap use, 5% rof
af skill bonuses: 5% damage, 5% armor resist
Vengeance
5/3/3 layout, 5 missile slots
frigate skill bonuses: 5% armor resist bonuses, 5% missile damage
af skill bonuses: 5% missile rof, 5% explosion velocity (?)
Enyo
5/3/3 layout, 5 turret slot
frigate skill bonuses: 5% damage 10% optimal range
af skill bonuses: 7.5% armor rep, 5% rof
Ishkur
5/2/4 layout, 4 turret slot (dronebay)
frigate skill bonuses: 5% damage, 7.5% tracking
af skill bonuses: 7.5% armor rep, 10% drone damage/hitpoints

all ships above get their base t2 resists, 75% primary and 50% secondary.

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Originally by: Graalum

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Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 06:31:57


I read most of the thread, and saw alot of decent ideas.

Their intended role is pretty clear, a frigate that can tank and gank. The problems involved are pretty clear, they are slow, hard to maneuver, and don't really tank or gank all that well. Several suffer from mixed weapon systems, or highslots with no turret or launcher slot.

to improve this, all af's need the following changes made: 20% increase in velocity over their t1 equivilents, 10% better agility mods than their t1 equilivents, 5% greater weight from t1 equivilents, and a slight decrease in signature, to put them between t1 their t1 varient and their racial interceptor. They also could use a 5-10% hitpoint buff, perhaps more cap, and need to be cheaper to build. Finally, they all need to have their role narrowed down (ie arty on a wolf, missiles on a hawk, etc) and be made slightly easier to fit.

In general, af's should have 5 weapon slots, 2 damage mods, a tanking mod, and a miscellaneous range/tracking/falloff/etc mod depending on the weapon focus of the ship or a special characteristic of the ship (harpy, hawk, ishkur)

For instance:

Harpy
5/4/2 layout, 5 turret points
frigate skill bonuses: 10% optimal + 5% shield resist
af skill bonuses: 10% optimal + 5% damage
Hawk
5/4/2 layout, 5 missile points
frigate skill bonuses: 5% rof, 10% missile velocity
af skill bonuses: 5% kinetic damage, 5% shield resist
Jaguar
5/3/3 layout, 5 turret points
frigate skill bonuses: 5% rof 5% damage
af skill bonuses: 10% falloff, 5% velocity
Wolf
5/2/4 layout, 5 turret points,
frigate skill bonuses: 5% damage, 10% optimal range
af skill bonuses: 5% rof, 7.5% tracking
Retribution
5/2/4 layout, 5 turret points
frigate skill bonuses: 10% reduction cap use, 5% rof
af skill bonuses: 5% damage, 5% armor resist
Vengeance
5/3/3 layout, 5 missile slots
frigate skill bonuses: 5% armor resist bonuses, 5% missile damage
af skill bonuses: 5% missile rof, 5% explosion velocity (?)
Enyo
5/3/3 layout, 5 turret slot
frigate skill bonuses: 5% damage 10% optimal range
af skill bonuses: 7.5% armor rep, 5% rof
Ishkur
5/2/4 layout, 4 turret slot (dronebay)
frigate skill bonuses: 5% damage, 7.5% tracking
af skill bonuses: 7.5% armor rep, 10% drone damage/hitpoints

all ships above get their base t2 resists, 75% primary and 50% secondary.

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Originally by: Graalum

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Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 06:31:57


I read most of the thread, and saw alot of decent ideas.

Their intended role is pretty clear, a frigate that can tank and gank. The problems involved are pretty clear, they are slow, hard to maneuver, and don't really tank or gank all that well. Several suffer from mixed weapon systems, or highslots with no turret or launcher slot.

to improve this, all af's need the following changes made: 20% increase in velocity over their t1 equivilents, 10% better agility mods than their t1 equilivents, 5% greater weight from t1 equivilents, and a slight decrease in signature, to put them between t1 their t1 varient and their racial interceptor. They also could use a 5-10% hitpoint buff, perhaps more cap, and need to be cheaper to build. Finally, they all need to have their role narrowed down (ie arty on a wolf, missiles on a hawk, etc) and be made slightly easier to fit.

In general, af's should have 5 weapon slots, 2 damage mods, a tanking mod, and a miscellaneous range/tracking/falloff/etc mod depending on the weapon focus of the ship or a special characteristic of the ship (harpy, hawk, ishkur)

For instance:

Harpy
5/4/2 layout, 5 turret points
frigate skill bonuses: 10% optimal + 5% shield resist
af skill bonuses: 10% optimal + 5% damage
Hawk
5/4/2 layout, 5 missile points
frigate skill bonuses: 5% rof, 10% missile velocity
af skill bonuses: 5% kinetic damage, 5% shield resist
Jaguar
5/3/3 layout, 5 turret points
frigate skill bonuses: 5% rof 5% damage
af skill bonuses: 10% falloff, 5% velocity
Wolf
5/2/4 layout, 5 turret points,
frigate skill bonuses: 5% damage, 10% optimal range
af skill bonuses: 5% rof, 7.5% tracking
Retribution
5/2/4 layout, 5 turret points
frigate skill bonuses: 10% reduction cap use, 5% rof
af skill bonuses: 5% damage, 5% armor resist
Vengeance
5/3/3 layout, 5 missile slots
frigate skill bonuses: 5% armor resist bonuses, 5% missile damage
af skill bonuses: 5% missile rof, 5% explosion velocity (?)
Enyo
5/3/3 layout, 5 turret slot
frigate skill bonuses: 5% damage 10% optimal range
af skill bonuses: 7.5% armor rep, 5% rof
Ishkur
5/2/4 layout, 4 turret slot (dronebay)
frigate skill bonuses: 5% damage, 7.5% tracking
af skill bonuses: 7.5% armor rep, 10% drone damage/hitpoints

all ships above get their base t2 resists, 75% primary and 50% secondary.

---

Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus

---

(A). A competent Cruiser pilot could do both just as easily and cheaper and have more dps.

(B). People fly destroyers? They die to anything fast.

(C). Right, and for those of us that don't fly minmatar AF's our options are what again? Last i checked small blasters were well within web range.

(D). A well fit cruiser can make even shorter work of a cruiser. Cruiser gangs would be even deadlier than an AF gang. I pirated in a vexor and it worked great :)

My point being that there really is no reason to use a more expensive less effective ship, when a T1 cruiser can do all the above jobs just as easily and in some cases better.

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

retri should be 5/1/5 with 5 turrets, 2 damage bonuses + range + tracking.
I always pictured the thing as a mobile turret platform for point defense.

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

retri should be 5/1/5 with 5 turrets, 2 damage bonuses + range + tracking.
I always pictured the thing as a mobile turret platform for point defense.

---

Uhm no? You making all those changes for other races but you want amarr to be stuck with a 1 mid slot AF (=cant solo)? No. Retri needs 2 mids. Doesnt matter what role it gets. End of story.

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

retri should be 5/1/5 with 5 turrets, 2 damage bonuses + range + tracking.
I always pictured the thing as a mobile turret platform for point defense.

---

Uhm no? You making all those changes for other races but you want amarr to be stuck with a 1 mid slot AF (=cant solo)? No. Retri needs 2 mids. Doesnt matter what role it gets. End of story.

---

but why not?

imho AF's should be the ships that take point in a fight and not solo-wanderers.

or, the firepower envelope for small frig gangs (small as in 5-man frig gangs).


also if you read it well, I disagreed with most of the changes that Graalum posted, bar the wolf and the harpy.

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

retri should be 5/1/5 with 5 turrets, 2 damage bonuses + range + tracking.
I always pictured the thing as a mobile turret platform for point defense.

---

Uhm no? You making all those changes for other races but you want amarr to be stuck with a 1 mid slot AF (=cant solo)? No. Retri needs 2 mids. Doesnt matter what role it gets. End of story.

---

but why not?

imho AF's should be the ships that take point in a fight and not solo-wanderers.

or, the firepower envelope for small frig gangs (small as in 5-man frig gangs).


also if you read it well, I disagreed with most of the changes that Graalum posted, bar the wolf and the harpy.

---

Because these ships are perfect for solo at the same time and people DO use these as solo machines, its just not fair to give ALL the other 3 races 2 soloing AFs while amarr is still stuck with one.

---

Originally by: WishBlade

---

I kinda skipped 20% of the posts here, but, generally, I missed the mention of a tracking bonus on the gunships. Whilst it would be good to be able to tackle, and take down cruisers, and such, and be immune to propulsion reduction, it is most, and foremost and anti-small (cruiser included) vessel. It would be really good to have the ability to follow an interceptor's speed, and actually hit it. With a slightly better tank it would make little difference if the respective inty is webbing, or not.
Descending deeper into mechanics I might be completely wrong, but they do make excellent snipers in their size, and tracking could make a great difference at various ranges.

---

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

For the Gank AF
I gave a damage bonus, a close range weapon range bonus, a HIGH tracking bonus, plus the webber resist and afterburner bonuses.
For the amarr gank af as it is a missile ship, I gave it such high rocket velocity that it can reach over 6km/s. infact it needed to have a negative to rocket flight time to keep it close rae.
All this just so they can chase and hit inties, plus hit larger ships without slowing down.

---

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: WishBlade

---

I kinda skipped 20% of the posts here, but, generally, I missed the mention of a tracking bonus on the gunships. Whilst it would be good to be able to tackle, and take down cruisers, and such, and be immune to propulsion reduction, it is most, and foremost and anti-small (cruiser included) vessel. It would be really good to have the ability to follow an interceptor's speed, and actually hit it. With a slightly better tank it would make little difference if the respective inty is webbing, or not.
Descending deeper into mechanics I might be completely wrong, but they do make excellent snipers in their size, and tracking could make a great difference at various ranges.

---

I assume you are talking about the 2nd suggested bonuses I gave.

For the Gank AF
I gave a damage bonus, a close range weapon range bonus, a HIGH tracking bonus, plus the webber resist and afterburner bonuses.
For the amarr gank af as it is a missile ship, I gave it such high rocket velocity that it can reach over 6km/s. infact it needed to have a negative to rocket flight time to keep it close rae.
All this just so they can chase and hit inties, plus hit larger ships without slowing down.

For the Tank AF's
They got long range weapon range bonuses, tank bonuses and a damage bonus. they are simply nice little snipers.

But yes tracki was very important.

---

Originally by: WishBlade

---

Granted, I guess that's a part I missed, as I said.

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

retri should be 5/1/5 with 5 turrets, 2 damage bonuses + range + tracking.
I always pictured the thing as a mobile turret platform for point defense.

---

Uhm no? You making all those changes for other races but you want amarr to be stuck with a 1 mid slot AF (=cant solo)? No. Retri needs 2 mids. Doesnt matter what role it gets. End of story.

---

but why not?

imho AF's should be the ships that take point in a fight and not solo-wanderers.

or, the firepower envelope for small frig gangs (small as in 5-man frig gangs).


also if you read it well, I disagreed with most of the changes that Graalum posted, bar the wolf and the harpy.

---

Because these ships are perfect for solo at the same time and people DO use these as solo machines, its just not fair to give ALL the other 3 races 2 soloing AFs while amarr is still stuck with one.

---

nowadays having 2 medslots is something that I *hardly* consider soloing-capable.
Also, solo machines nowadays only work "well" in low-sec. Sure you can go roaming solo to 0.0, but then you face teh mighty "bl0b", and you run to hide.
and, tbh imho, Afrigs should work better in gangs, and not solo. for that, imho, the inties do a better work.

---

Originally by: Gloups

---

Please give to the jaguar 5% bonus to velocity for each AF level, reduce his sig radius, his mass, and switch optimal bonus with falloff.

I love you CCP !

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 20:23:16
personally i think a web immune ship is more than a little overpowered.

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 20:23:16
personally i think a web immune ship is more than a little overpowered.

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

I can also confirm that the guristas pirates have a titan. We tried to kill it but unfortunately it mwded away at 5k/second and smacked us in local.

---

Originally by: Chomapuraku

---

how about making assault frigs a counter to fast ships like interceptors and speed-tanked cruisers/hac's? maybe give them a webber bonus of some sort, or maybe a huge range bonus on small nos/neuts, or a huge bonus to missile velocity, explosion velocity and small weapon tracking. we need something that can take out a ceptor in such a way that the ceptor has to either fight back (if in combat/tackling range) or run away.

---

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: Chomapuraku

---

how about making assault frigs a counter to fast ships like interceptors and speed-tanked cruisers/hac's? maybe give them a webber bonus of some sort, or maybe a huge range bonus on small nos/neuts, or a huge bonus to missile velocity, explosion velocity and small weapon tracking. we need something that can take out a ceptor in such a way that the ceptor has to either fight back (if in combat/tackling range) or run away.

---

You mean what I suggested on page 2...

_____________________Vengeance (Gank)
Amarr Frigate Skill bonus: 10% bonus to Rocket damage and 20% bonus to Rocket velocity per level.
Assault Ships Skill bonus: 20% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for Rockets and 10% bonus to webber resistance per level.
Penalty: -40% to Rockets maximum flight time.
Role bonus: 120% bonus to afterburner speed increase.

Retribution (Tank)
Amarr Frigate Skill bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret cap use and 5% bonus to armor resistances per level.
Assault Ships Skill bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level
Role bonus: 50% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range.

Harpy (Gank)
Caldari Frigate Skill bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range per level.
Assault Ships Skill bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking and 10% bonus to webber resistance per level.
Role bonus: 120% bonus to afterburner speed increase.

Hawk (Tank)
Caldari Frigate Skill bonus: 5% bonus to shield resistances and 5% bonus to Missile Kinetic damage per level.
Assault Ships Skill bonus: 10% bonus to missiles veocity and 5% bonus to targeting range per level.
Role bonus: 50% bonus to missiles maximum flight time.

Ishkur (Gank)
Gallente Frigate Skill bonus: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret Tracking Speed per level.
Assault Ships Skill bonus: 10% bonus to webber resistance and +5 Drone Bay capacity per level.
Role bonus: 120% bonus to afterburner speed increase.

Enyo (Tank)
Gallente Frigate Skill bonus: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret falloff and 7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer effectiveness per level.
Assault Ships Skill bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking speed and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per skill level.
Role bonus: 50% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range.

Wolf (Gank)
Minmatar Frigate Skill bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile damage and 10% bonus to Small Projectile tracking per level.
Assault Ships Skill bonus: 10% bonus to webber resistance and 10% bonus to Small Projectile Turret falloff per level.
Role bonus: 120% bonus to afterburner speed increase.

Jaguar (Tank)
Minmatar Frigate Skill bonus: 5% bonus to Small Projectile damage and 7.5% bonus to Shield Booster effectiveness per level.
Assault Ships Skill bonus: 7.5% bonus to Small Projectile Turret tracking speed and 10% bonus to targeting range per level.
Role bonus: 50% bonus to Small Projectile Turret optimal range.
_____________________


Is this what you thinking? In particular I like my idea for the Vengeance.

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 20:23:16
personally i think a web immune ship is more than a little overpowered.

---

why? Because large gank turrets + webbed target shouldnt be the the solution to every encounter. Might actually give more room for smaller turreted ships.

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Why is vengeance the only one getting penalty? Aw I forgot Amarr does need to stink the most like always..

---

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: WishBlade

---

I kinda skipped 20% of the posts here, but, generally, I missed the mention of a tracking bonus on the gunships. Whilst it would be good to be able to tackle, and take down cruisers, and such, and be immune to propulsion reduction, it is most, and foremost and anti-small (cruiser included) vessel. It would be really good to have the ability to follow an interceptor's speed, and actually hit it. With a slightly better tank it would make little difference if the respective inty is webbing, or not.
Descending deeper into mechanics I might be completely wrong, but they do make excellent snipers in their size, and tracking could make a great difference at various ranges.

---

I assume you are talking about the 2nd suggested bonuses I gave.

For the Gank AF
I gave a damage bonus, a close range weapon range bonus, a HIGH tracking bonus, plus the webber resist and afterburner bonuses.
For the amarr gank af as it is a missile ship, I gave it such high rocket velocity that it can reach over 6km/s. infact it needed to have a negative to rocket flight time to keep it close rae.
All this just so they can chase and hit inties, plus hit larger ships without slowing down.

For the Tank AF's
They got long range weapon range bonuses, tank bonuses and a damage bonus. they are simply nice little snipers.

But yes tracki was very important.

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 20:23:16
personally i think a web immune ship is more than a little overpowered.

---

why? Because large gank turrets + webbed target shouldnt be the the solution to every encounter. Might actually give more room for smaller turreted ships.

---

How exactly would you kill a small ship when you can't web? The last thing we need to make a ship class that survives by speedtanking and is immune to the only other counter.

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 20:23:16
personally i think a web immune ship is more than a little overpowered.

---

why? Because large gank turrets + webbed target shouldnt be the the solution to every encounter. Might actually give more room for smaller turreted ships.

---

How exactly would you kill a small ship when you can't web? The last thing we need to make a ship class that survives by speedtanking and is immune to the only other counter.

---

Originally by: Ron Lycan

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 20:23:16
personally i think a web immune ship is more than a little overpowered.

---

why? Because large gank turrets + webbed target shouldnt be the the solution to every encounter. Might actually give more room for smaller turreted ships.

---

How exactly would you kill a small ship when you can't web? The last thing we need to make a ship class that survives by speedtanking and is immune to the only other counter.

---

And just what are Destroyers and Stealth bombers for?

---

Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker

---

Destroyers should be massively buffed, if its a frigate even T2 it should have absolute fear of the destroyer.

---

Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker

---

Destroyers should be massively buffed, if its a frigate even T2 it should have absolute fear of the destroyer.

---

Originally by: Redora

---

Now, IF Assault Ships were web immune, I'd suggest that a lot of the "Lower mass/increase agility" would become overpowered. But if it was JUST web immunity, then they'd be fine.

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Redora

---

Now, IF Assault Ships were web immune, I'd suggest that a lot of the "Lower mass/increase agility" would become overpowered. But if it was JUST web immunity, then they'd be fine.

---

exactly my point when I proposed such role bonus to the Afrigs, since their bane was, is, and in the state of things atm, will always, a competent cruiser with a web.

ok fine, don't boost their speed nor shave their mass or increase their agility. let them be the bricks of the frigate class.

give them web immunity instead, and all their problems will be solved.

well, not all. there is still the issue of the 4th bonus.

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

the hawk, I would go for a 4/5/2, and concentrate both on tank and damage (IE: dual tanking and dual damage bonuses)

---

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Redora

---

Now, IF Assault Ships were web immune, I'd suggest that a lot of the "Lower mass/increase agility" would become overpowered. But if it was JUST web immunity, then they'd be fine.

---

exactly my point when I proposed such role bonus to the Afrigs, since their bane was, is, and in the state of things atm, will always, a competent cruiser with a web.

ok fine, don't boost their speed nor shave their mass or increase their agility. let them be the bricks of the frigate class.

give them web immunity instead, and all their problems will be solved.

well, not all. there is still the issue of the 4th bonus.

---

I doubt it would solve all their problems. But if the 4th bonus was a 25%/lvl boost to after burners then maybe it would put them in the "near enough" basket. :)

---

Originally by: TimMc

---

Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker

---

Destroyers should be massively buffed, if its a frigate even T2 it should have absolute fear of the destroyer.

---

Just a thought, how about having the destroyer skill give a bonus like this across the board...

Destroyers Skill bonus: 20% bonus to webifier range and +2% bonus to webifier effectiveness per skill level.


Basically, you get to 20km of a destroyer, and he can stop you to 0m/s with a t2 web. Then his unbonused guns can gradually pick you off, or his gangmates can kill you.

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Edited by: Graalum on 20/10/2007 20:23:16
personally i think a web immune ship is more than a little overpowered.

---

why? Because large gank turrets + webbed target shouldnt be the the solution to every encounter. Might actually give more room for smaller turreted ships.

---

How exactly would you kill a small ship when you can't web? The last thing we need to make a ship class that survives by speedtanking and is immune to the only other counter.

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Why is vengeance the only one getting penalty? Aw I forgot Amarr does need to stink the most like always..

---

he explained his reasoning here:

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: WishBlade

---

I kinda skipped 20% of the posts here, but, generally, I missed the mention of a tracking bonus on the gunships. Whilst it would be good to be able to tackle, and take down cruisers, and such, and be immune to propulsion reduction, it is most, and foremost and anti-small (cruiser included) vessel. It would be really good to have the ability to follow an interceptor's speed, and actually hit it. With a slightly better tank it would make little difference if the respective inty is webbing, or not.
Descending deeper into mechanics I might be completely wrong, but they do make excellent snipers in their size, and tracking could make a great difference at various ranges.

---

I assume you are talking about the 2nd suggested bonuses I gave.

For the Gank AF
I gave a damage bonus, a close range weapon range bonus, a HIGH tracking bonus, plus the webber resist and afterburner bonuses.
For the amarr gank af as it is a missile ship, I gave it such high rocket velocity that it can reach over 6km/s. infact it needed to have a negative to rocket flight time to keep it close rae.
All this just so they can chase and hit inties, plus hit larger ships without slowing down.

For the Tank AF's
They got long range weapon range bonuses, tank bonuses and a damage bonus. they are simply nice little snipers.

But yes tracki was very important.

---

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Why is vengeance the only one getting penalty? Aw I forgot Amarr does need to stink the most like always..

---

he explained his reasoning here:

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: WishBlade

---

I kinda skipped 20% of the posts here, but, generally, I missed the mention of a tracking bonus on the gunships. Whilst it would be good to be able to tackle, and take down cruisers, and such, and be immune to propulsion reduction, it is most, and foremost and anti-small (cruiser included) vessel. It would be really good to have the ability to follow an interceptor's speed, and actually hit it. With a slightly better tank it would make little difference if the respective inty is webbing, or not.
Descending deeper into mechanics I might be completely wrong, but they do make excellent snipers in their size, and tracking could make a great difference at various ranges.

---

I assume you are talking about the 2nd suggested bonuses I gave.

For the Gank AF
I gave a damage bonus, a close range weapon range bonus, a HIGH tracking bonus, plus the webber resist and afterburner bonuses.
For the amarr gank af as it is a missile ship, I gave it such high rocket velocity that it can reach over 6km/s. infact it needed to have a negative to rocket flight time to keep it close rae.
All this just so they can chase and hit inties, plus hit larger ships without slowing down.

For the Tank AF's
They got long range weapon range bonuses, tank bonuses and a damage bonus. they are simply nice little snipers.

But yes tracki was very important.

---

---

Uhm the retribution is the gank ship, this is where you fail.

---

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Why is vengeance the only one getting penalty? Aw I forgot Amarr does need to stink the most like always..

---

he explained his reasoning here:

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: WishBlade

---

I kinda skipped 20% of the posts here, but, generally, I missed the mention of a tracking bonus on the gunships. Whilst it would be good to be able to tackle, and take down cruisers, and such, and be immune to propulsion reduction, it is most, and foremost and anti-small (cruiser included) vessel. It would be really good to have the ability to follow an interceptor's speed, and actually hit it. With a slightly better tank it would make little difference if the respective inty is webbing, or not.
Descending deeper into mechanics I might be completely wrong, but they do make excellent snipers in their size, and tracking could make a great difference at various ranges.

---

I assume you are talking about the 2nd suggested bonuses I gave.

For the Gank AF
I gave a damage bonus, a close range weapon range bonus, a HIGH tracking bonus, plus the webber resist and afterburner bonuses.
For the amarr gank af as it is a missile ship, I gave it such high rocket velocity that it can reach over 6km/s. infact it needed to have a negative to rocket flight time to keep it close rae.
All this just so they can chase and hit inties, plus hit larger ships without slowing down.

For the Tank AF's
They got long range weapon range bonuses, tank bonuses and a damage bonus. they are simply nice little snipers.

But yes tracki was very important.

---

---

Uhm the retribution is the gank ship, this is where you fail.

---

Really? I think its a ***WIN*** but then maybe you can't appreciate or understand that rockets are for close range combat and you will pawn with them.

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 21/10/2007 09:55:00

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Originally by: Grimpak

---

Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

---

Why is vengeance the only one getting penalty? Aw I forgot Amarr does need to stink the most like always..

---

he explained his reasoning here:

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

Originally by: WishBlade

---

I kinda skipped 20% of the posts here, but, generally, I missed the mention of a tracking bonus on the gunships. Whilst it would be good to be able to tackle, and take down cruisers, and such, and be immune to propulsion reduction, it is most, and foremost and anti-small (cruiser included) vessel. It would be really good to have the ability to follow an interceptor's speed, and actually hit it. With a slightly better tank it would make little difference if the respective inty is webbing, or not.
Descending deeper into mechanics I might be completely wrong, but they do make excellent snipers in their size, and tracking could make a great difference at various ranges.

---

I assume you are talking about the 2nd suggested bonuses I gave.

For the Gank AF
I gave a damage bonus, a close range weapon range bonus, a HIGH tracking bonus, plus the webber resist and afterburner bonuses.
For the amarr gank af as it is a missile ship, I gave it such high rocket velocity that it can reach over 6km/s. infact it needed to have a negative to rocket flight time to keep it close rae.
All this just so they can chase and hit inties, plus hit larger ships without slowing down.

For the Tank AF's
They got long range weapon range bonuses, tank bonuses and a damage bonus. they are simply nice little snipers.

But yes tracki was very important.

---

---

Uhm the retribution is the gank ship, this is where you fail.

---

Really? I think its a ***WIN*** but then maybe you can't appreciate or understand that rockets are for close range combat and you will pawn with them.

---

Yeah but its odd, why did you switch the roles? Its not like your switched the roles of wolf for tank and jaguar for gank. And besides every ship has its inherent advantage. Its not like youre penaltilizing the wolf and jaguar because they are faster then the others, are you?

---

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

EDIT: Now after an excessively long down time and pure boredom I went back and had another stab at the bonuses the AF's could have. Tell me what you guys think.

---

Originally by: Letifer Deus

---

Edited by: Letifer Deus on 21/10/2007 21:48:03

Originally by: Nian Banks

---

AF 1
High DPS (For small weapons)
Above Average Tank (More than a T1 Frigate but less than a T1 Cruiser)
Moderate Speed (More than T1 Frigate but less than a T1 Cruiser)
Close Range High Tracking Weapons (Capable of tracking when in falloff moderate to high speed interceptors)

AF 2:
Average DPS (Same as T1 Combat Frigates 'Base Hull?')
High Tank (Slightly Stronger Tank than an average T1 Cruisers)
Low to Average Speed (Slightly worse than a T1 Frigate 'Base Hull?')
Long Range Weapons (Capable of doing a similar job to Destroyers however with a lower alpha strike)


Thats how I imagine AF's should be. Defined and clear potential uses.

---

The problem with your roles are as follows:


gank AF against an interceptor: (1)a MWDing inty with a 90% web on it is still going to be faster than your AB bonused AF with an effective 45% web on it. (2) if you are both webbed, tracking with pulse/blaster/AC will be no problem, making the tracking bonus a moot point. (3) You can't catch an interceptor anyways. An AB AF, even one with a cool 120% AB speed bonus, is still a snail compared to a MWD inty. If you can't catch them, you can't web them and you obviously can't shoot them outside of web range with blasters/ACs/pulses, and as rails/beams/howies are almost pointless without a range bonus, you are not much more than an annoyance that needs to be avoided.

Against a cruiser: you web each other, wee, you're orbiting at ~340m/s and he's basically not moving. not even 150 rails with NO tracking bonus would miss on a 90% webbed cruiser while you orbit at sub 10km. Thus, there is absolutely no need for a tracking bonus when using blasters/ACs/pulses on a webbed cruiser.

So, *takes a big breath* now that we all realize an AB bonused, web resistant AF can't catch an interceptor, can't keep an interceptor webbed if it is itself webbed, is more or less worthless at long range due to no optimal bonus and has a tracking bonus that is useless in all of it's perceived roles, we should agree something needs to be changed.

Solution: The fast, short range gankers are anti-cruiser and the tankers are anti-AF. As I've pointed out, an AF hopelessly too slow to be a close rage AF ganker. But an AF with enough range and tracking to blast an inty from afar doesn't NEED speed. The tankers should be the anti-AF boats. Deadly to AFs and frigs and VERY hard to kill. You know, what destroyers would be if they weren't T1 pieces of crap. So, boost their tracking bonus from 7.5% to 10% per lvl and the tankers you've put together would be amazing.

AND a close-range, high dmg, AB boosted and web resistant AF would kick ass in the anti-cruiser role. Go with that, give them something useful for killing cruisers instead of a tracking bonus that is near worthless. 5% dmg per level (10% thermal drone dmg for ishkur) is the ticket. Cruisers will still have a higher dps (vexor w/4x ions & 5 hammer2s does ~478 dps and ishkur with 3x neuts and 4x hammer2s (w/10% dmg bonus per lvl) would do 326), and cruisers will undoubtedly be a significantly cheaper choice (and insure for full market value) after AF prices jump due to these changes, so they will still retain value, but ganker AFs would pose one serious threat to cruisers and could even lend a significant hand against BC and BS.

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Quote:

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Letifer Deus:

If you can't catch them, you can't web them and you obviously can't shoot them outside of web range with blasters/ACs/pulses, and as rails/beams/howies are almost pointless without a range bonus, you are not much more than an annoyance that needs to be avoided.

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Originally by: Raxlar Kalimar

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Yes and that's how I kill all so many ceptors because I clearly can't hit 15km to 16km with my AS LvL5 duel falloff rigged 200mm auto cannon Wolf now can I? Surly not!

Well Actually I can and this is how it normally goes:

1)Oh look a Wolf he will have artillery and no Web the fool I'll orbit him at 500m
2)Oh no he is using autos I'll move out to 7km to 10km
3)Arg he is still pwning me I'll either run or orbit at 12km to 15km..........
4).....BOOM!

Normally takes about 6-8 volleys that's about 12 to 20 seconds and the above process takes the average inty pilot too long to work through. He needs to run nearly as soon as he get into the 500m orbit and notices the auto cannons if he wants to keep his ship intact.

It relies on people being stupid but I find that most people are obliging.

This is EVE and assumptions about your opponents capabilities get you killed!

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 21/10/2007 09:55:00

Originally by: Nian Banks

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: Grimpak

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Why is vengeance the only one getting penalty? Aw I forgot Amarr does need to stink the most like always..

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he explained his reasoning here:

Originally by: Nian Banks

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Originally by: WishBlade

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I kinda skipped 20% of the posts here, but, generally, I missed the mention of a tracking bonus on the gunships. Whilst it would be good to be able to tackle, and take down cruisers, and such, and be immune to propulsion reduction, it is most, and foremost and anti-small (cruiser included) vessel. It would be really good to have the ability to follow an interceptor's speed, and actually hit it. With a slightly better tank it would make little difference if the respective inty is webbing, or not.
Descending deeper into mechanics I might be completely wrong, but they do make excellent snipers in their size, and tracking could make a great difference at various ranges.

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I assume you are talking about the 2nd suggested bonuses I gave.

For the Gank AF
I gave a damage bonus, a close range weapon range bonus, a HIGH tracking bonus, plus the webber resist and afterburner bonuses.
For the amarr gank af as it is a missile ship, I gave it such high rocket velocity that it can reach over 6km/s. infact it needed to have a negative to rocket flight time to keep it close rae.
All this just so they can chase and hit inties, plus hit larger ships without slowing down.

For the Tank AF's
They got long range weapon range bonuses, tank bonuses and a damage bonus. they are simply nice little snipers.

But yes tracki was very important.

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Uhm the retribution is the gank ship, this is where you fail.

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Really? I think its a ***WIN*** but then maybe you can't appreciate or understand that rockets are for close range combat and you will pawn with them.

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Yeah but its odd, why did you switch the roles? Its not like your switched the roles of wolf for tank and jaguar for gank. And besides every ship has its inherent advantage. Its not like youre penaltilizing the wolf and jaguar because they are faster then the others, are you?

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Actually all others didn't need a penalty as they were reasonable and didn't have such huge bonuses, only the Vengeance needed a negative, and thats because rocket velocity = range & effective tracking. So the range needed to be limited a little by way of flight time, still it will reach a respectable range and besides which rockets as I said are close range and the idea of gank + close range, tank + sniper was what I was getting at.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Oh please, you dont think its a huge difference in 2000m/s mwd speed and 1000m/s mwd speed between AFs? They have different advantages and are different. You just couldnt take it that the amarr one would be one of the best in its own way in its ship class.

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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1) it's still getting an effective 60% range bonus. Other gankers get effectively less than a 50% range bonus (they only get bonus to optimal or falloff)
2) it's getting an effective 100% bonus to "tracking". Other gankers only get a 50% bonus to tracking.
3) it's getting a 10% dmg bonus. Other gankers only get a 5% dmg bonus.

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Originally by: Mr Bodacious

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I always pictured AFs to be the eve equivalent of current fighter jets and stuff. I dunno, stuff you'd see in cowboy bebop or something.

I like a lot of the changes listed in this thread, and as an AF pilot, I really hope they are given some buffs because they are frustratingly slightly-below-par right now.

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Originally by: Volir

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I like the idea of the AFs being immune to stasis webifiers. That makes them pretty ideal for heavy tackling, but it also can make them overpowered at high speeds. SO a suggestion would be to give AFs the webifier immunity role bonus, but nerf the Capacitor. The idea would be to force AFs to use afterburners or sacrifice lots of fitting to CCCs and cap mods to get a sustained MWD (thus sacrificing the majority of tank/tackle/dps).

The AFs would rely on solid tanks, moderate speed and low sig radius to do their job. Interceptors get the tackle; AFs keep the tackle.

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Originally by: Volir

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I like the idea of the AFs being immune to stasis webifiers. That makes them pretty ideal for heavy tackling, but it also can make them overpowered at high speeds. SO a suggestion would be to give AFs the webifier immunity role bonus, but nerf the Capacitor. The idea would be to force AFs to use afterburners or sacrifice lots of fitting to CCCs and cap mods to get a sustained MWD (thus sacrificing the majority of tank/tackle/dps).

The AFs would rely on solid tanks, moderate speed and low sig radius to do their job. Interceptors get the tackle; AFs keep the tackle.

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Originally by: Praxis1452

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Originally by: Volir

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I like the idea of the AFs being immune to stasis webifiers. That makes them pretty ideal for heavy tackling, but it also can make them overpowered at high speeds. SO a suggestion would be to give AFs the webifier immunity role bonus, but nerf the Capacitor. The idea would be to force AFs to use afterburners or sacrifice lots of fitting to CCCs and cap mods to get a sustained MWD (thus sacrificing the majority of tank/tackle/dps).

The AFs would rely on solid tanks, moderate speed and low sig radius to do their job. Interceptors get the tackle; AFs keep the tackle.

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you'd have to nerf pg so they can't fit a small cap booster... which is pretty much impossible. I'd say AF builds do really well with a cap booster so unlikely. a bunch of 150 boosters will last decently long.

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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1) it's still getting an effective 60% range bonus. Other gankers get effectively less than a 50% range bonus (they only get bonus to optimal or falloff)
2) it's getting an effective 100% bonus to "tracking". Other gankers only get a 50% bonus to tracking.
3) it's getting a 10% dmg bonus. Other gankers only get a 5% dmg bonus.

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1) Why arent there people complaining about the overpowered pulse lasers amarr use? Longest range of the short range weapons. Vengeance has it with the rockets now, we better nerf it because now it actually works. Maybe you should go open a thread about nerfing crows if you are really arguing about this.

2) They also do more damage with turrets...

3) Oh the blaster AFs get too little dps? Lets give em 10% too so they can get commandship dps.

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Lets spread the LOVE and hope CCP has a warm heart. I can feel the goodness and well being just flowing out of this thread.

Oh and I agree, go for the gank _> anti cruiser idea, I love it. but in the end all that needs changing on the bonuses is a higher damage bonus. Tracking is still important when your orbiting 2.5km/s at a <5km range.

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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Originally by: Nian Banks

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Lets spread the LOVE and hope CCP has a warm heart. I can feel the goodness and well being just flowing out of this thread.

Oh and I agree, go for the gank _> anti cruiser idea, I love it. but in the end all that needs changing on the bonuses is a higher damage bonus. Tracking is still important when your orbiting 2.5km/s at a <5km range.

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Glad you like the idea. However, I still disagree with you on the tracking. I don't think with light blasters/DLPs/MPs/rockets orbiting a webbed cruiser will need any tracking boost. Also, 2.5km/s is much faster than an AB boosted gank AF would be doing anyways. Top speed on the non minny AFs should be around 900-950. Also factor in that the majority of the time you're gonna be webbed, and you'll be doing 45% less than one normally would. So ABOUT the same speed as orbiting something in a reg. AB AF.

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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Originally by: Lyria Skydancer

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Originally by: Letifer Deus

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1) it's still getting an effective 60% range bonus. Other gankers get effectively less than a 50% range bonus (they only get bonus to optimal or falloff)
2) it's getting an effective 100% bonus to "tracking". Other gankers only get a 50% bonus to tracking.
3) it's getting a 10% dmg bonus. Other gankers only get a 5% dmg bonus.

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1) Why arent there people complaining about the overpowered pulse lasers amarr use? Longest range of the short range weapons. Vengeance has it with the rockets now, we better nerf it because now it actually works. Maybe you should go open a thread about nerfing crows if you are really arguing about this.

2) They also do more damage with turrets...

3) Oh the blaster AFs get too little dps? Lets give em 10% too so they can get commandship dps.

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1) rofl. I'm sorry, let's compare range of medium pulse 2 w/conflag to a rocket launcher 2 with rage.

medium pulse 2= 3.8 opt. + 2.8 falloff
rage rocket = 11km

or how about scorch and javalins?

mp2 = 11km + 2.8 falloff
jav rocket = 29 km

Not to mention medium pulses have HUGE fitting requirements.

Let's throw in DLP2s:

DLP2 w/conflag = 3.4 + 1.9
DLP2 w/scorch = 10 + 1.9

You're right, pulses have a longer range than rockets.

2) You're right. That's why the range is so much smaller (compare rocket range to light neuts/ions). Blasters and lasers also use cap, missles don't. Missles are FAR better at killing smaller targets. Missles have a much higher DPS over time (but have a delayed start to dmg). They're called tradeoffs.

3) When did I say that? Blasters in general get awesome damage (and an additional 5% would put them close to cruiser dps, not CS dps). Blasters need no changes.

Why do you argue like a 5th grader on the playground? Try and make a real argument.

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Originally by: Volir

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I like the idea of the AFs being immune to stasis webifiers. That makes them pretty ideal for heavy tackling, but it also can make them overpowered at high speeds.

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Originally by: Haio

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Edited by: Haio on 31/10/2007 16:42:42
20% web effect reduction per level, built-in +1 warp core strength.

Still too slow compared to inties and nanoships, but with unique role.

Description could be changed to something like:

Although not as fast and agile as most other frigates, assault ships have advanced propulsion system that is designed to counter the effect of anti-propulsion devices.
Assault frigates are designed for hit-and-run tactics.

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Originally by: Draeca

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I see atleast gallente AFs as low/nullsec ratting ships.
They can easily tank and spank BS spawns, and they're fast enough to slip away quickly if something evil jumps into the belt.

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Originally by: Jenea

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There are some valid concerns about the role of an AF, but for filling the role outlined above, the Vengeance and other assault frigates are very good. They are the ideal carebear ratmobile -- they do it all, they don't cost you a fortune, and give you a chance to learn.

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Originally by: Jenea

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Do half the T1 cruisers serve a real purpose to anyone but a newer players?

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Originally by: Jenea

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I do not want to sound like I know it all, for I don't, but let's not forget that not everyone in EVE is at the same level. The AF is a great "step up" for the new player and, while the AF has a limited role in advanced/fleet combat, they do serve a purpose and have a (narrowly defined) role.

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Originally by: Jenea

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They are just another tool in the toolbox to take or leave. I do, however, think that the resistances based on the frigate level is a rather silly and weak bonus that could be integrated into the ship and replaced with a minor bonus tailored to the flavor of each race.

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Originally by: Mos Superum

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...

I'm wondering, though, based on this discussion, if I blew 9M on this AF and the T2 rails (using named stuff for other modules for the moment) for naught. Are they at least a fun, entry level T2 ship for new players? Or just a money sink into a ship that has no long-term role in the game?

...
Mos Superum

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