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What's an appropriate price for betrayal?

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Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.20 00:37:00 - [1] Backstory: [T NC] The Ninja Coalition did some hard recruiting to get me to join their corp. Dodiez (my other half) had already joined them, and eventually I did. I don't join a corp lightly - Almost my entire employment history consists of corps that hired me to deploy a POS for them, after which point I'd leave - either for another POS job, or back to my DCMI home. I spent two months in the ninjas, and several billion ISK on its members. All of the Ninjas fly recons or stealth bombers; its what they do - a lot of the ISK was spent in getting people into ships that they needed, or fitting them out. I worked with people, got them into ships, led gangs - I put my heart and soul into the Ninjas. Typically, I prefer not having to step up and take charge of things; but the chain of command was tiny: The CEO (C4FF) was missing. THe co-CEO (Mirana Niranne) was missing. The only director (Feng Schui) prefers to fly alone, and no one was willing to step up and make things happen. We got wardecced - three of them at the same time. I went out and hired mercenaries to assist us because we all fly cloaky ships - not tanking/DPS/station warfare stuff, and we came through all three with hardly a scratch, and inflicted some serious losses. After the wars were over, things slowed down again, and I sent a mail to the CEO and co-CEO that morale was down and they really needed to start making a presence and making things happen. They decide that we're going to move to 0.0!! Now, having just filled their shoes out of necessity for a month and a half, I realize that we're in no shape to join up with KOS, plop a POS down in 0.0 and become a 0.0 corp. We lack infrastructure, leadership, ISK...pretty much everything. So during the next corp meeting, I started raising some objections to the pell-mell rush to 0.0 and urged caution. One of the corp members, Eriks Black quits the corp on the spot because he wanted to go to 0.0 and felt like I was sabotaging it. More discussion ensues, and the C4FF says that the Ninjas are a democracy, and that everything needs to happen as a consensus. Obviously, everyone wanted to go to 0.0; I felt like my role was in urging them to be prepared before rushing into it - everyone knows what happens to corps that go to 0.0 without any infrastructure, backup plan, assets, or leadership. Well, at this point, I gave the CEO a few choice words about how he was the CEO, and needed to take charge and act like it. That the democratic method was a cop-out for him to push off responsibility for decision-making - that this exact thing is the REASON that people were considering leaving the corp and that nothing was happening. Well, in that particular democracy, minority voices are kicked out of the corp. . Eriks Black, who demonstrated the absolute least loyalty to the cause by quitting on a whim to apply to Roadkill, rejoins and is promoted to 3rd. This all comes a week after I've done some intensive recruiting to get several of my long-time friends to join the Ninjas. Now, I understand that berating a CEO in front of the corp isn't politically wise. I do. But at the point where you're putting more effort into the corp than the leader you signed up to follow - something needs to happen. So here I am - months later, a couple billion ISK wasted on people I should have known better than to spend it on...and I feel cheated. ------------------------------- Now, my first instinct is to hire mercs - but after taking the Ninjas through ops on three wars, mercs have been ineffective at killing the Ninjas. I'm dubious about it. They're about to try moving to 0.0. What options do I have? They've lost my respect amidst such poor decision making, and personally betrayed me. But I don't know how to make them pay. Suggestions?
Dodiez Gallente ScaryScaryNoobs	Posted - 2007.10.20 00:55:00 - [2] Just my two cents: I was debating on staying in, but honestly, the conversation was stilted and I knew people were talking behind my back. Caff confirmed this when he told me people were thinking about leaving because "they thought Curzon and I were sabotaging the move to 0.0, so Curzon had to go." Why Curzon and not me? I was even more vocal about my distaste for the 0.0 move. This smacks of a personal move against Curzon, therefore I had to leave the ninjas. I ask you, how can TWO people sabotage an action that the entire corp will weigh in on? The ninjas are democratic, however dissenting opinions are not allowed without it being thought that it's sabotage. I didn't want to move to 0.0 and have another 0.0 disaster under my belt. 0.0 makes or breaks corps, and I didn't want that to happen to the ninjas. Everyone else in the ninjas was all for it. Would I have gone if the vote was to go? No, but I would have accepted it as the decision and not mentioned it again. As would Curzon. We were just weighing in with our opinion BEFORE the vote was put to the corp. Is that a wrong thing to do? As for the corps being democratic...I don't believe that is the system that CCP was trying to set into place. I'll bet all of the large successful corps not democratic at all. CCP calls our groups 'corporations' for a reason. They're supposed to be run like one. Most corporations run with a CEO, CFO, and COO. And sometimes a Board of Directors. They are the people that make the decisions and the rules. That is exactly how our corps are set up. Why would someone not run a corp that way? Sure a CEO can take advice and opinion for a decision, but ultimately, the decision should be left up to him. You join a corp because you agree with the corp's visions (ie, the CEO's vision). Why would you get angry if he chooses to use that authority to make a decision? I've rambled a bit, but this has really left a bad taste in my mouth and has left me a bit jaded about people and corps in Eve. I know Eve is a harsh world, but your corp is supposed to be your safe zone. Not in this case. Now I need a new sig.... :(
Elles D Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.20 00:57:00 - [3] Why don't you write a little song about it?
SilentLucidity Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.20 01:03:00 - [4] Edited by: SilentLucidity on 20/10/2007 01:03:21 Not having been there and heard exactly what was said, makes this a hard topic to comment on. It sounds like the corp wasn't the best place for you anyways. The relationship between a player (players in this case)and their corp is very much like a marriage. They are your bread and butter and you are thiers. If things look like thay aren't going your way, you can either fight to make it work, or it's time to move along. This seems to go for corporations within alliances as well. Live and learn, and move on. Next time look for someone who appreciates your efforts.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.10.20 01:09:00 - [5] Join Muffin Factory... we really don't care what you do or say and do more songs! That is your strong point and lots and lots of Eve people listen and laugh at the people mocked (Even yours truly )... that'll show em. Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking I owned someone on forums!!!
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.20 01:15:00 - [6] Originally by: Elles D Why don't you write a little song about it? I DID write a song about it. I need a new home! Its in my parody thread.
Rameus Luxmaar Immortalis Inc. Carpe Diem.	Posted - 2007.10.20 01:19:00 - [7] my 2 isk Curzon, Sorry to hear that you were tarred and feathered by the organization that you had a large part in help build up over the last few months by your description of events. As a result your now in a position where you want to plant a large thorn in their side with good reason as far as I can see. You know their tactics, and their internal workings on a first hand basis. snip You stated "We lack infrastructure, leadership, ISK...pretty much everything" snip It appears that they will in time cut their own jugular in the process of moving to 0.0 without your intervention. However isolating and exploiting their biggest weakness of those stated values would be a sure way of breaking them down to 0. Even better pursuing them with their own tactics would only add insult to injury. On top of that engineering a way to extract members would hurt even more. Good luck in your endeavors of turning established chaos in to absolute hell. IMMORTALIS INC. is recruiting new members! Check out our corp info in game!
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.10.20 01:20:00 - [8] You could always, well, be a big boy and get over it.
Moridin920 Gallente Capital One	Posted - 2007.10.20 01:28:00 - [9] The appropriate price for betrayal? Immediately set to work making at least 30 trial accounts. That done, proceed to spam them all with statements about how pirates are better than ninjas. Don't stop until every single trial account is banned. That done, proceed to try to get an alt in there. If they are going to 0.0 and are that under prepared they will immediately think "We just don't have enough people. RECRUIT!" Then wait until they are setting up the pos, and raid it. Take it, and sell it. Laugh. Then send a mail with a smiley face in it, and offer to sell the pos back to them, for cheap. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience our piracy may have caused you, but, we are pirates and, sadly, this is our way."
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.20 01:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Ilvan You could always, well, be a big boy and get over it. I agree -----
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.10.20 01:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Curzon Dax Originally by: Elles D Why don't you write a little song about it? I DID write a song about it. I need a new home! Its in my parody thread. I missed 1! Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking I owned someone on forums!!!
Tecam Hund Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.10.20 02:05:00 - [12] By leading the gangs, doing all those things for the corp, and finally openly criticizing CEO you make a move towards becoming the corp leader whether you wanted it or not. If you were popular with the members, make another corp and invite them to join. If they do, you get your revenge. If they don't, it was a miscalculation on your part to openly stand up to CEO without having popular support. At any rate it was not a betrayal.
Sae Len	Posted - 2007.10.20 02:08:00 - [13] You don't invest a lot of effort and ISK into a corp when you don't have a good relationship with its leadership. That's just stupid to do. I don't think you can go anything here. Hiring mercs won't make them any more grateful. If they fail in their move to 0.0 you can always write them all warm told-you-so emails. But there are many incompetent corps that inhabit not so great portions of 0.0 for a long time, so even if they are not ready they can probably make it.
BloodyWomble	Posted - 2007.10.20 02:12:00 - [14] Forum ***** gets scammed.......
Stakhanov Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.10.20 02:13:00 - [15] I was hoping you robbed some corp hangar for shiny loots. Booo Originally by: F'nog One does not simply log into Jita.
Dodiez Gallente ScaryScaryNoobs	Posted - 2007.10.20 02:30:00 - [16] Originally by: Sae Len You don't invest a lot of effort and ISK into a corp when you don't have a good relationship with its leadership. That's just stupid to do. I don't think you can go anything here. Hiring mercs won't make them any more grateful. If they fail in their move to 0.0 you can always write them all warm told-you-so emails. But there are many incompetent corps that inhabit not so great portions of 0.0 for a long time, so even if they are not ready they can probably make it. That's the thing. There was a good relationship with the leaders. Until they stopped leading. They basically went MIA for almost a month. True, one was working a lot, and RL takes precedence, but instead of putting a system in place for while they had to be gone, they let the corp languish. Did Curzon try to take over the corp? No, he just stepped in to try to do some things so people wouldn't be bored. Maybe some of the peons of the corp didn't see it that way, but they never even asked to see if he had any interest in a leadership role. The leadership of the corp knew that Curzon did not want anything to do with running it. Now I need a new sig.... :(
Priestess Ayumi Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.10.20 03:02:00 - [17] Can I join them :)?
Spitzerr Racketeers	Posted - 2007.10.20 04:44:00 - [18] "Ninja" Coalition. Fly around and cloak like little "ninja" girls when danger shows up lmao They are a bunch of e-tards, saw their ceo on eve-tv.. Not impressed Good luck beating them into pieces. _______________________________________________
Zrim Racketeers	Posted - 2007.10.20 04:46:00 - [19] Originally by: Spitzerr "Ninja" Coalition. Fly around and cloak like little "ninja" girls when danger shows up lmao They are a bunch of e-tards, saw their ceo on eve-tv.. Not impressed Good luck beating them into pieces. verbal *****smex tape hoorrahh ------ ~~ Movie ~~
animal man Gallente The Accursed	Posted - 2007.10.20 05:01:00 - [20] lol curzon, funny song!
Dodiez Gallente ScaryScaryNoobs	Posted - 2007.10.20 05:20:00 - [21] Originally by: Spitzerr "Ninja" Coalition. Fly around and cloak like little "ninja" girls when danger shows up lmao They are a bunch of e-tards, saw their ceo on eve-tv.. Not impressed Good luck beating them into pieces. applies to join Racketeers Now I need a new sig.... :(
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.20 05:25:00 - [22] You know... I'd consider applying too, because I would relish certain activities. But they've well established that they don't like me. Hell, I even tried singing to them on their vent and they kicked me.
General Apocalypse Amarr Ship Research	Posted - 2007.10.20 06:06:00 - [23] Edited by: General Apocalypse on 20/10/2007 06:08:30 Simple hire a black ops guy to destroy the corp from the inside It's not a cheap job but ti's the ultimate revenge , in 4-40 weeks the corp should fall . Oh ya i forgot to mentions that they'll be very **ed off at each other . Originally by:** CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
Mr Bodacious mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.10.20 06:53:00 - [24] You should have joined the fight club ;) We would've had your back.
Spitzerr Racketeers	Posted - 2007.10.20 06:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Curzon Dax You know... I'd consider applying too, because I would relish certain activities. But they've well established that they don't like me. Hell, I even tried singing to them on their vent and they kicked me. Ahh shut the f*** up! We loved your song! And i will personaly accept your application (no singing on vent) _______________________________________________
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.10.20 07:02:00 - [26] One word from TNC, which sums it up: Personality. On a side note, as far as Curzon goes, he is a good FC. If anyone wishes to have him try out for their ranks, he does do a good job. other than that, I will add nothing to this thread.
Arii Smith Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.20 08:34:00 - [27] Edited by: Arii Smith on 20/10/2007 08:34:09 Hire GOOD mercs. You should have a lot of info on their operations. Share their plans, infastructure, play hours, locations etc with a GOOD merc corp (you gotta know some) and let the battle rage! EDIT: Or let them crash and burn in 0.0 and then eve-mail their members with an "I told you so" message. That should sting them a little bit.
Kiyirari Raiders of the Lost Pantie's	Posted - 2007.10.20 09:29:00 - [28] I would invest in buying another character to infiltrate the ninjas, slowly working your way up the ranks into a fit position and level of trust to where you can loot all their hangers and replace the lost isk wasted on a bunch of political incorrect rtards. Revenge is best severed cold Revenge is my god and my guns are her angels
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.10.20 09:47:00 - [29] Originally by: Curzon Dax 1)Well, at this point, I gave the CEO a few choice words about how he was the CEO, and needed to take charge and act like it. ..... 2)Now, I understand that berating a CEO in front of the corp isn't politically wise. I spoke up, and got kicked from the corp. Seems like he took your advice to heart Personally id hire some merc to pop their 0.0 prescence SKUNK
Sorted Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.10.20 09:53:00 - [30] If mercs have proven in effective in the past hire an assassin or two. I have seen pilots offering Assassin style Suicide ganks in highsec. Pods included. It will put them on edge after the first one or two, no war decs - no warning. "Passive targeters and POP, WTF?. New clone!. Planted much? not anymore!" It would distrupt moral as well as personal wallets. I'm sure an old Priv pilot offered such a service. Just a thought. Once they move into 0.0 with POS etc you could always revert to hiriing some big bruisers (Dreads) to waste it. Good luck

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