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Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:10:00 - [1] If you take a look at the vexor, myrm and domi you will see that it is perfect as it is. This is why. Each class gets 10% bonus to drone hitpoints per level and both the vexor and domi get a bonus to turret damage per level except the myrm which gets a repair bonus instead. Now the Vexor is a tech I tier II cruiser that can field 3 heavy drones and costs less than 4m. The domi is a tech I tier I bs that can use 6 large hybrid's with a bonus and can field 5 heavies, it costs a little over 50m. It also can field more heavies even if all are destroyed twice. Now the myrm costs 33m, it has no bonus to turret damage, power grid is lacking if you try to fit 6 medium hybrids and is completely fair to be able to field 5 heavies as it cannot replace them when they get destroyed. It's in a class called Battlecruiser which would suggest it's closer to Battleship than cruiser, certainly it's price would if that didn't ;) There is another crucial point, the myrm is part of a new gallente design which ofc must be some improvement over lets say old gallente designs like the domi, the domi still outperforms the myrm in every repect, however the domi costs more and is a bs and so it should. It just doesn't make sense to nerf this ship, this is a good drone boat for those that have invested in drone skills, it's balanced between cruiser and bs. If it's nerfed then there is no reason to pay more and train for it when a brutix will completely destroy it. Or maybe ccp don't want variety amongst drone users and just want us all to fly domi's, cause all that will happen if this is nerfed is that all myrm pilots will start flying domi's and no one will bother to fly the myrm. From a personal aspect it's quite fun and on the edge risking your fully rigged myrm in level 4 missions trying not to get popped or lose a drone, using a domi will just be like oh lets sit here tank the whole mission, oh lost a drone nvm 10 more in the bay, and ofc large hybrids making sure you insta pop all the rats and a full set of medium or light drones for frigs in the bay too. So yeah lets destroy this ship and hit it with the nerf bat because some pilots put time into drone skills to make it worth it and some noob in his hurricane couldn't be arsed to train for tech II autocannons and hail, zomfg the myrm so pwned me and needs to be nerfed
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:12:00 - [2] You seem to like beating a dead horse.
Delichon Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:15:00 - [3] Solution to this - train Ammar.
ollobrains DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:17:00 - [4] give it a bonus say 3% dps per level for lasers, projectiles and smartbombs
TimMc Skiddies of Doom	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Sirial Soulfly You seem to like beating a dead horse. Its only dead when its on Tranquility.
Kyp Yuun	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:37:00 - [6] Why should gallente be the only one with out some sort of fitting limit to there main source of dps. I'm assuming your talking about drone bandwidth
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Kyp Yuun Why should gallente be the only one with out some sort of fitting limit to there main source of dps. I'm assuming your talking about drone bandwidth I am refering to drone bandwidth, to be fair if the myrm got 125mb of bandwidth there would not be a problem, as it should, but I believe someone said that on the test server it only had 75mb of bandwidth which is the same as a tech I cruiser the vexor. This is a nerf too far. I'm sorry but if your a noob and you want to fly a decent ship, like the best frig or best cruiser or best bc and so on, then you train for it and it's fun and an achievement. In everything there is a best at some particular thing, if your gallente and use drones, then if they do this you will move directly from vexor to domi. Who the hell is going to train for a ship that can only field as many drones as a vexor when in just a little longer you can get in a domi for not much more cost!!! This is a an idea that doesn't achieve anything, where is the balance? These myrm pilots are going to be in domi's then!!! This isn't broken, drone control is, fix that. Your not balancing anything, your just killing a ship and putting more people in domi's.
Kyp Yuun	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Lucas Avignon Originally by: Kyp Yuun Why should gallente be the only one with out some sort of fitting limit to there main source of dps. I'm assuming your talking about drone bandwidth I am refering to drone bandwidth, to be fair if the myrm got 125mb of bandwidth there would not be a problem, as it should, but I believe someone said that on the test server it only had 75mb of bandwidth which is the same as a tech I cruiser the vexor. This is a nerf too far. I'm sorry but if your a noob and you want to fly a decent ship, like the best frig or best cruiser or best bc and so on, then you train for it and it's fun and an achievement. In everything there is a best at some particular thing, if your gallente and use drones, then if they do this you will move directly from vexor to domi. Who the hell is going to train for a ship that can only field as many drones as a vexor when in just a little longer you can get in a domi for not much more cost!!! This is a an idea that doesn't achieve anything, where is the balance? These myrm pilots are going to be in domi's then!!! This isn't broken, drone control is, fix that. Your not balancing anything, your just killing a ship and putting more people in domi's. Quit being dramatic, they'll most likely increase it from 75 to 100. Its not as if those numbers are set in stone
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:55:00 - [9] Train for caldari turret ships, nothing beats them.
Kyp Yuun	Posted - 2007.10.24 09:58:00 - [10] Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Train for caldari turret ships, nothing beats them. Epic Moa FTW
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 10:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn Train for caldari turret ships, nothing beats them. lol About those numbers being not set in stone, well they are finalising the code for the expansion soon and tbh I see it getting nerfed into oblivion, so by then I'll be flying a domi. Shame really as I think it's one of the coolest looking ships in the game and it's going to be a real pain having to fly what I consider is the ugliest ship in the game but meh it's far better than a myrm
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.24 10:52:00 - [12] Myrm is overpowered and should not be able to fit 5 heavy drones, simple as this Gal have no reason to cry and it annoys me go train ammar then you can cry
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 10:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Wizzkidy Myrm is overpowered and should not be able to fit 5 heavy drones, simple as this Gal have no reason to cry and it annoys me go train ammar then you can cry A tech I cruiser the vexor can field 3 heavys and costs 3.8m, a myrm cost's 35m, I think it should be able to field 5 heavies ;)
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:01:00 - [14] Originally by: Lucas Avignon Originally by: Wizzkidy Myrm is overpowered and should not be able to fit 5 heavy drones, simple as this Gal have no reason to cry and it annoys me go train ammar then you can cry A tech I cruiser the vexor can field 3 heavys and costs 3.8m, a myrm cost's 35m, I think it should be able to field 5 heavies ;) That makes no odds? the cost means nothing, the myrm is a BC! no other BC can fit 5 heavy drones and none should be able too. You know this as well as anyone else. Jesus you Gal lot really need to get over this nerf its brining it IN LINE with OTHER BC's no excuses can be made for this one
Xiong Yoshi	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:03:00 - [15] Originally by: ollobrains give it a bonus say 3% dps per level for lasers, projectiles and smartbombs I second this. I use lasers on my Myrm and would love a Damage bonus.. Though to be honest: I'd love to see it get a Drone Bay of 175m3, bandwidth of 100Mhz, and Sentry Drones require 20Mhz... THAT would be ideal to me.. No one really uses sentries it seems (except me) so I see no reason why Sentries should have the same Bandwidth as Heavies.. hell, your ship doesn't even need to guide their movements - which means that it would be easily to justify giving them much less Bandwidth requirements than even Mediums... But anyways, as a Myrm Pilot, THAT is what I'd want to see.
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Wizzkidy Originally by: Lucas Avignon Originally by: Wizzkidy Myrm is overpowered and should not be able to fit 5 heavy drones, simple as this Gal have no reason to cry and it annoys me go train ammar then you can cry A tech I cruiser the vexor can field 3 heavys and costs 3.8m, a myrm cost's 35m, I think it should be able to field 5 heavies ;) That makes no odds? the cost means nothing, the myrm is a BC! no other BC can fit 5 heavy drones and none should be able too. You know this as well as anyone else. Jesus you Gal lot really need to get over this nerf its brining it IN LINE with OTHER BC's no excuses can be made for this one Your not getting what I'm saying then, if this gets 75mb bandwidth, it's obsoltete, doesn't matter about other bc, no drone pilot will bother training or paying 35m for a ship when a domi for about 52m is nearly 3 times as good.
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:09:00 - [17] Originally by: Xiong Yoshi Originally by: ollobrains give it a bonus say 3% dps per level for lasers, projectiles and smartbombs I second this. I use lasers on my Myrm and would love a Damage bonus.. Though to be honest: I'd love to see it get a Drone Bay of 175m3, bandwidth of 100Mhz, and Sentry Drones require 20Mhz... THAT would be ideal to me.. No one really uses sentries it seems (except me) so I see no reason why Sentries should have the same Bandwidth as Heavies.. hell, your ship doesn't even need to guide their movements - which means that it would be easily to justify giving them much less Bandwidth requirements than even Mediums... But anyways, as a Myrm Pilot, THAT is what I'd want to see. From my perspective, either the Myrm gets 125mb drone bandwidth or if they actually do nerf it, then they better listen to their own blog and increase the drone bay, tbh I think 100mb drone bandwidth and 175m3 dronebay to compensate would be the way to go if they have to hit it with the nerf bat.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Lucas Avignon Originally by: Wizzkidy Myrm is overpowered and should not be able to fit 5 heavy drones, simple as this Gal have no reason to cry and it annoys me go train ammar then you can cry A tech I cruiser the vexor can field 3 heavys and costs 3.8m, a myrm cost's 35m, I think it should be able to field 5 heavies ;) A tech 1 Tier 2 Omen can field 4 guns. I demand that the Harbinger can field atleast 8 Mega Pulses!! Look at the cost. 4 mill for an Omen and a lot more for the Harbinger. Its an outrage.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:15:00 - [19] Except when you fit anything other than turrets on a domi, it and the Myrmidon have the same DPS at one third the cost. You really don't have an issue with that? Or is it that you fly it and just don't want it nerfed? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Originally by: CCP Wrangler Booooo!!! Tarminic sux!!!
Minigin Ganja Labs	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:20:00 - [20] I can kick the ** out of most other bc's using medium drones. Why the hell are you complaining. 5 heavise in a myrm is a stupid fit anyway. You are 1 smart pilot away from losing all your dps. mediums just keep on popping out. Before you yell caldari swine... im a pure bred gallente, with a fugly portrait. I have always fit mediums in my myrmidon and i always will. now we know ccp isnt going back no this nerf, think how you can work around it. 5 meds... is still a significant amount of dps. More than enough to beat the ** out of another bc. MINIGIN! Occasionally posting in "limegreen"
Raneru Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:24:00 - [21] Is it possible to break the passive tank of a drake with a drone bandwidth of 75 and whatever guns you manage to fit after a decent tank is fitted?
Herring Pimpology Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Lucas Avignon Originally by: Kyp Yuun Why should gallente be the only one with out some sort of fitting limit to there main source of dps. I'm assuming your talking about drone bandwidth I am refering to drone bandwidth, to be fair if the myrm got 125mb of bandwidth there would not be a problem, as it should, but I believe someone said that on the test server it only had 75mb of bandwidth which is the same as a tech I cruiser the vexor. This is a nerf too far. I'm sorry but if your a noob and you want to fly a decent ship, like the best frig or best cruiser or best bc and so on, then you train for it and it's fun and an achievement. In everything there is a best at some particular thing, if your gallente and use drones, then if they do this you will move directly from vexor to domi. Who the hell is going to train for a ship that can only field as many drones as a vexor when in just a little longer you can get in a domi for not much more cost!!! This is a an idea that doesn't achieve anything, where is the balance? These myrm pilots are going to be in domi's then!!! This isn't broken, drone control is, fix that. Your not balancing anything, your just killing a ship and putting more people in domi's. Yeah WTS myrmidon bpo....balls. TBH when I spend more time thinking about what's going to be nerfed next than what I want to do in the game, that's when the game starts to be not so fun. Nerfage is rampant, and it's ***ing people off. CCP - please stop with the nerfing and boost something already.*
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:27:00 - [23] Theres something wrong with the myrmi? I have no clue tbh, i own one cuz i think the myrmi is one of the sweetest looking ships in the game and i bought one for my eve b-day but thats about it. I don't have a lot of skills for it but it seems fine to me? CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Minigin Ganja Labs	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:27:00 - [24] Originally by: Raneru Is it possible to break the passive tank of a drake with a drone bandwidth of 75 and whatever guns you manage to fit after a decent tank is fitted? i have done so on many occasions. MINIGIN! Occasionally posting in "limegreen"
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Herring WTS myrmidon bpo....balls. TBH when I spend more time thinking about what's going to be nerfed next than what I want to do in the game, that's when the game starts to be not so fun. Nerfage is rampant, and it's **ing people off. I'll be happy to purchase that BPO from you. Is it researched? Despite the upcoming nerf I'll buy it at NPC market order prices, so you know it'll be a good deal. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Originally by:** CCP Wrangler Booooo!!! Tarminic sux!!!
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Tarminic Except when you fit anything other than turrets on a domi, it and the Myrmidon have the same DPS at one third the cost. You really don't have an issue with that? Or is it that you fly it and just don't want it nerfed? ofc you could simple pretend the turrets didn't exist and say that they have the same dps, however a domi can tank a hell of a lot more than a myrm and if you do fit turrets, then you can fit large ones with bonus'es and the Myrm is only 33% cheaper than a domi. tbh I hate to look of the domi but if this comes in I will be flying it, lets hope that the updated model looks better by then ^^
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:53:00 - [27] Maybe fit medium drones on it and keep spares? Drones are unique among weapons for oversizing at the moment. I can't put torpedos on my Drake, so why should you get a full compliment of HEAVY drones as well as guns? ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
Xiong Yoshi	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama Maybe fit medium drones on it and keep spares? Drones are unique among weapons for oversizing at the moment. I can't put torpedos on my Drake, so why should you get a full compliment of HEAVY drones as well as guns? I can't shoot your weapon system, why should you be able to shoot mine?
benzss The Increment Retribution.	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:01:00 - [29] While the Myrmidon is a little bit overpowered as it is, I still maintain the best way to bring it in line is to make it very difficult to fit medium hybrids in the high slots - either by reducing the number of high slots, number of turret slots, or reducing the powergrid. Making the Myrmidon a Vexor with a fat arse is a joke.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama Maybe fit medium drones on it and keep spares? Drones are unique among weapons for oversizing at the moment. I can't put torpedos on my Drake, so why should you get a full compliment of HEAVY drones as well as guns? When i can shoot your missile launchers off of your ship you can win this argument. A drake, even with **ty t1 passive tank, can tank a myrmiddon for an incredibly long time, long enough for the pilot to kill the myrms DPS(heavys) and wait for backup, or, be an enterprising young fool, kill your own cap and his (the nos nerf has made this possible for you) The PG on a myrm is lacking and its slow to get its dps on target, any ship that is cap stable while MWDing can render the myrm worthless because: it has to have you webbed to kill you with heavy drones, if they get more than say... 20km from the myrm, they're *** toast. The myrm has no onboard weapon bonus, nor the PG required for a decent blaster setup, but thats ok, because no one gives a ** and it can fit autocannons. The myrm has some SERIOUS DEFICIENCIES when it comes to aligning and so often a dominix will escape faster anyway (one of the myrms main +'s is meant to be: it can get into and out of dodge a lot faster than the superior dominix) Dont get me wrong, it IS a good ship in some circumstances, but if you have the brains not to let it web you its basically roasted. I've lost far too many being over adventuress and now im avoiding using them but theres no need to nerf the myrm fans out there...
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:11:00 - [31] Originally by: benzss While the Myrmidon is a little bit overpowered as it is, I still maintain the best way to bring it in line is to make it very difficult to fit medium hybrids in the high slots - either by reducing the number of high slots, number of turret slots, or reducing the powergrid. Making the Myrmidon a Vexor with a fat arse is a joke. Yes. And please tell me the vexor can still launch 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 light drone? It's absolutely limp wristed and pathetic when sat next to a thorax in all other regards bar the "SUPRISE!" factor for bumping vaga pilots when they get 2 webs and some t2 wasps rammed down their throat... i hope it gets a cap buff (wtf is going on there.) as some kind of ****ty recompense for having its only real drawcard (bye nosboats) taken away.
benzss The Increment Retribution.	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:15:00 - [32] I'm still convinced that the majority of real PvPers know full well how to deal with and beat a myrmidon. It's only the carebears that whine about it
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:25:00 - [33] Originally by: Raneru Is it possible to break the passive tank of a drake with a drone bandwidth of 75 and whatever guns you manage to fit after a decent tank is fitted? Is it possible to break a drake with ANY other BC? Only a full out gank BS can break a good passive tanked drake. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:30:00 - [34] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Raneru Is it possible to break the passive tank of a drake with a drone bandwidth of 75 and whatever guns you manage to fit after a decent tank is fitted? Is it possible to break a drake with ANY other BC? Only a full out gank BS can break a good passive tanked drake. Hurricane?
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:34:00 - [35] Edited by: Grimpak on 24/10/2007 12:35:34 Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Raneru Is it possible to break the passive tank of a drake with a drone bandwidth of 75 and whatever guns you manage to fit after a decent tank is fitted? Is it possible to break a drake with ANY other BC? Only a full out gank BS can break a good passive tanked drake. I once broke a Drake tank with my deimos. granted I had to use void and it took some 5 minutes, but I broke it. oh and I wasn't using combat drones btw. ECM drones. in addition to the myrm thingy, this nerf doesn't change my way of using the ship at all. been using med drones in it, will continue to do so. --- planetary interaction idea!
Delichon Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:50:00 - [36] Regarding "who can break a Drake's tank" arguement: Guys, there are Drakes and there are Drakes. The first tank 1000 DPS and deal something like 200-300 DPS (drones included) The second tank 200 DPS and deal something like 400-500 DPS Two completely different tanks to break, aren't they?
Heliocon	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:50:00 - [37] This will kill the ship and my 6mil sp in drones dornes are myrms primary damage and medium t2 drones can do NOWHERE near the equivilant 5 t2 blasters.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:05:00 - [38] Edited by: Shevar on 24/10/2007 13:08:53 Originally by: Lucas Avignon Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Raneru Is it possible to break the passive tank of a drake with a drone bandwidth of 75 and whatever guns you manage to fit after a decent tank is fitted? Is it possible to break a drake with ANY other BC? Only a full out gank BS can break a good passive tanked drake. Hurricane? Erm no. Unless you consider fitting 4 gyros and 2 BCU's normal. Quote: This will kill the ship and my 6mil sp in drones Evil or Very Mad dornes are myrms primary damage and medium t2 drones can do NOWHERE near the equivilant 5 t2 blasters. Another option would be ofcourse to reduce the ammount of highslots to 1 or 2 and let the myrm keep fielding a full set of ogres. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:28:00 - [39] Well as CCP Oveur reported in his blog: " we're adding a new constraint on drones, bandwidth. With this, bandwidth determines the number of drones you can control, allowing the dronebay to be considerably increased on drone ships, accommodating more waves or variety. Ubar? Ja! " No, more like fubar, anyway if CCP implement it, the only fair way I think is either give the Myrm 125 mb drone bandwidth or give it 100 mb bandwidth so it can field 4 heavies and increase the drone bay to 175m3 thereby giving you more options, either back up drones or a set of medium and light drones.
Heliocon	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:23:00 - [40] Lol this is a bit too far lower the high slots and give ous the same dornes ffs. It is a ddrone boat if anythign take away highs the dornes are fine ocnsidering you can pop them and each one thaty pops lkowers your dps by 20%.
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:05:00 - [41] From what is being reported on Sisi, it seems they have taken the nerf bat and bludgeoned the Myrmidon to death, it can now field 3 heavy drones!!! Alas poor Myrm, I knew him
benzss The Increment Retribution.	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:41:00 - [42] Originally by: Shevar Edited by: Shevar on 24/10/2007 12:34:14 Originally by: Raneru Is it possible to break the passive tank of a drake with a drone bandwidth of 75 and whatever guns you manage to fit after a decent tank is fitted? Is it possible to break a drake with ANY other BC? Only a full out gank BS can break a good passive tanked drake. Originally by: benz While the Myrmidon is a little bit overpowered as it is, I still maintain the best way to bring it in line is to make it very difficult to fit medium hybrids in the high slots - either by reducing the number of high slots, number of turret slots, or reducing the powergrid. Making the Myrmidon a Vexor with a fat arse is a joke. Yes indeed gaining 2 turret slots, 2 mids and 2 lows and a ****load of cap is a "joke"? I wouldn't mind having the myrm fielding 5 heavies if it was exactly same layout/cap/armor as a vexor. But it's not. And quite frankly you would (or actually should) be crying A LOT harder if CCP would have gone that route. Also please tell me what do you think of the hurricane that gains 2 turrets 1 mids and 1 lows compared to the rupture? You consider the hurricane to be a fat joke compared to the rupture? Remember it even has the same dronespace as a rupture. Gimping the high slots on a Myrm brings its DPS down sufficiently to be 'in line' with other races (disregarding the other problems using drones pose, but nevermind). The Myrm has no selling point now. The equivalent would be making the hurricane really slow. Or the Drake with a rubbish shield tank.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:57:00 - [43] bc use medium weapons so it shouldn't be allowed to field bs type drones. end of story
Bomerang Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2007.10.24 16:14:00 - [44] Originally by: Buyerr bc use medium weapons so it shouldn't be allowed to field bs type drones. end of story Drake is also a BC, why should it be allowed to tank like a dreadnaught in siege ?
Korran Minare	Posted - 2007.10.24 16:16:00 - [45] What you guys need to remember is that the Myrm was designed by the Gallente to have a big drone bay and have the high and mid slots to be able to keep said drones alive as well
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.24 16:23:00 - [46] Originally by: Bomerang Originally by: Buyerr bc use medium weapons so it shouldn't be allowed to field bs type drones. end of story Drake is also a BC, why should it be allowed to tank like a dreadnaught in siege ? Are you this guy's alt? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Originally by: CCP Wrangler Booooo!!! Tarminic sux!!!
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.24 17:45:00 - [47] Heavy drones do cruiser weapon dps, target cruiser sized targets, and as such are a cruiser sized weapon system. And to any who claim that drones don't take fittings, guess again. Compare the fitting on drone ships to any other ship of their tier. See how much less fittings they have? Op is right on many points... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Hozac	Posted - 2007.10.24 17:47:00 - [48] Gallente philosophy = overpowered ships.
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.10.24 17:56:00 - [49] Originally by: Laboratus Heavy drones do cruiser weapon dps, target cruiser sized targets, and as such are a cruiser sized weapon system. Armageddon w/ 7 MP II and MF at max skills - 450 dps Myrmidon w/ 5 ogres II at max skills ... 475 dps Try again?
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.24 17:56:00 - [50] Gallante fight at point blank Minmatar fight at close range Amarr fight at med range Caldari fight at any range All of these carry some requirements to work, and as such have corresponding increases in effectivenes. Simple as that. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:04:00 - [51] Edited by: Laboratus on 24/10/2007 18:03:57 Originally by: Ziena Amani Originally by: Laboratus Heavy drones do cruiser weapon dps, target cruiser sized targets, and as such are a cruiser sized weapon system. Armageddon w/ 7 MP II and MF at max skills - 450 dps Myrmidon w/ 5 ogres II at max skills ... 475 dps Try again? Thorax w/ 5 neutron IIs 3 damage mods 479dps Myrmie w/ 5 ogre IIs 475 dps Try again? ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:05:00 - [52] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 24/10/2007 18:03:57 Originally by: Ziena Amani Originally by: Laboratus Heavy drones do cruiser weapon dps, target cruiser sized targets, and as such are a cruiser sized weapon system. Armageddon w/ 7 MP II and MF at max skills - 450 dps Myrmidon w/ 5 ogres II at max skills ... 475 dps Try again? Thorax w/ 5 neutron IIs 3 damage mods 479dps Myrmie w/ 5 ogre IIs 475 dps Try again? Nerf both?
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:14:00 - [53] Originally by: Laboratus Heavy drones do cruiser weapon dps, target cruiser sized targets, and as such are a cruiser sized weapon system. 1 Ogre II almost equals 1 Neutron Blaster Cannon II at around 60 DPS. Don't know of any cruiser than can fit Neutron Blaster Cannon II s _______________
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:16:00 - [54] Originally by: Ziena Amani Nerf both? Fit your ships right. The difference here is, geddon with 3 HS and MP IIs can achieve 850-890 dps depending on crystals used to 15 optimal and ~680 dps to 45km optimal with guns alone and much more if we count the drone dps for the geddon... That is typical battleship class damage... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:17:00 - [55] Originally by: Dez Affinity Originally by: Laboratus Heavy drones do cruiser weapon dps, target cruiser sized targets, and as such are a cruiser sized weapon system. 1 Ogre II almost equals 1 Neutron Blaster Cannon II at around 60 DPS. Don't know of any cruiser than can fit Neutron Blaster Cannon II s Umm... No. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:24:00 - [56] Originally by: Laboratus Fit your ships right. The difference here is, geddon with 3 HS and MP IIs can achieve 850-890 dps depending on crystals used to 15 optimal and ~680 dps to 45km optimal with guns alone and much more if we count the drone dps for the geddon... I know how to fit my ships, thanks. That was kinda a comparison of primary weapon system on a ship with bonus to it. So?.. The said geddon then has to fit only his lows/mids and an odd high, which can only be used if you're rocking both cpu implants. The said myrmidon have 0 fitted modules at that stage, its guns ARE its damage mods as opposed to geddon. The thorax in question doesn't fit anything else other than to support and deliver that short-lived dps(oh, he can fill his drone bay..). Now, it's funny how you mention geddon doing 850-890 dps as being typical battleship dps.. well, guess what, a myrm can deal that amount of dps(5% less in fact), while having all needed stuff in mids + 1 ewar mod, as well as sporting dual-rep tank(which results in 450 dps tank until cap charges last). If you want to compare.. harbinger and hurricane can theoretically reach that amount of dps, fitting 3 damage mods and nearly no tank, no ew either. Balanced you say? Let me guess, now you'll tell me about drones being destructable, no? Before you do this, please consider what types of EW affect turrets/launchers, while having nearly no effect vs a drone boat.
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:26:00 - [57] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Dez Affinity Originally by: Laboratus Heavy drones do cruiser weapon dps, target cruiser sized targets, and as such are a cruiser sized weapon system. 1 Ogre II almost equals 1 Neutron Blaster Cannon II at around 60 DPS. Don't know of any cruiser than can fit Neutron Blaster Cannon II s Umm... No. Nice retort. You totally proved me wrong, I have seen the light, thanks for that. _______________
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:31:00 - [58] Originally by: Hozac Gallente philosophy = overpowered ships. As a design philosophy, you have to admit its not a bad one. [french]"Should we make our ships better than everyone elses ships?" "Duuuh, yeah ok."[/french] The whining about the Myrm and Eos is already very old. As a dedicated Brutix/Astarte pilot, I've spent the last few weeks/months (though they feel like years) quietly laughing about the changes. Maybe once the Myrm is balanced, I won't feel "dirty" when flying one.
Dronefragger	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:38:00 - [59] I've seen 2 Drakes take down a Myrm and a Tempest. Drakes need a nerf amirite?
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:38:00 - [60] Originally by: Ziena Amani Now, it's funny how you mention geddon doing 850-890 dps as being typical battleship dps.. well, guess what, a myrm can deal that amount of dps(5% less in fact), while having all needed stuff in mids + 1 ewar mod, as well as sporting dual-rep tank(which results in 450 dps tank until cap charges last). Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. Both fruit, but different. Blaster ships can work their magic in point blank range, while laser ships can do that outside web range... Much less risk, hence more effectivenes. Same goes to projectiles... That 850-890 is without drones. With the correct drones, and faction ammo the geddon goes over the magical 1.2kdps line. Something the myrmie can never dream of. Battlecruisers are between cruisers and battleships in performance, and myrmie fits in it's nieche perfectly. Thorax/vexor < myrmie/brutix < domi/mega. It fit's it's role perfectly. If it can fly only med drones it will be outperformed by the thorax in everything except tank and ew... Call that balanced? This thread is for discussion of myrmie, and how it fit's into gallante philosophy, so I won't derail the thread by going further into other race ships... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:56:00 - [61] Originally by: Laboratus This thread is for discussion of myrmie, and how it fit's into gallante philosophy, so I won't derail the thread by going further into other race ships... Balancing a ship only inside its own race is um, pointless. ____ The Video Vault
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:57:00 - [62] when you can only argue against a nerf from a philosphical stand point, you know the nerf is a good one, and the ship is indeed overpowered. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.10.24 18:58:00 - [63] Edited by: Ziena Amani on 24/10/2007 19:01:41 Originally by: Laboratus Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges. Both fruit, but different. Blaster ships can work their magic in point blank range, while laser ships can do that outside web range... Much less risk, hence more effectivenes. Same goes to projectiles... Hardly, such range advantage doesn't mean anything significant if you can't use it for any meaningful amount of time(read - control distance). Originally by: Laboratus That 850-890 is without drones. With the correct drones, and faction ammo the geddon goes over the magical 1.2kdps line. Something the myrmie can never dream of. Remember, you're comparing t2-fit gank battleship with max skills with a battlecruiser.. which does 65% of damage WHILE being able to tank 65% of a tanky battleship amount. Originally by: Laboratus Battlecruisers are between cruisers and battleships in performance, and myrmie fits in it's nieche perfectly. Thorax/vexor < myrmie/brutix < domi/mega. It fit's it's role perfectly. Yes, it is indeed in a nieche between cruisers and battleships, but it's leaning too close to battleships, having too much of advantages of both, compared to any other races' BC. Originally by: Laboratus If it can fly only med drones it will be outperformed by the thorax in everything except tank and ew... Call that balanced? Err, what? It does around the same dps as gank thorax, while being very tanky and e-war capable. Even more so with a change, say hello to ECM drones... you don't just look and dps and say "meh", try looking at the whole picture instead? Originally by: Laboratus This thread is for discussion of myrmie, and how it fit's into gallante philosophy, so I won't derail the thread by going further into other race ships... It's design is not changed in any significant way, it's still a very drone-capable battlecruisers, with guns to boot and an awesome tank. It still fits between cruisers and battleships, just much closer to where other races' BCs reside. Going by your words.. you're trying to compare apples to oranges and pears in the same basket, instead of trying to compare apples to apples, even if they come from a neighboring basket ;) Added. I'm going to agree with a poster above, we've heard exactly those kinds of reasoning when lasers were nerfed long ago(as they should've been), when stack penalty was introduced(just as it should've been) and when ECM was nerfed.. exactly as it should've been. Now we're seeing myrm nerfed and rightfully so, I'd like to finally fly this ship without associations of going to sandbox and beating some kids =\
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.24 19:02:00 - [64] Originally by: Ridley Tree Balancing a ship only inside its own race is um, pointless. I would say not considering how it fits in the line of progression it is in is um, pointless... Not to forget that even if you compare it to other ships in it's class the same basic things apply there as with any other comparison. As a short range ship, it has severe limitations, not present with it's longer range friends and as such fares better in it's native enviroment. Apples, oranges. All fruit, but different. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.24 19:02:00 - [65] I could see some tweaks to the Myr, but giving it the same bandwidth of the Vexor is a brutal nerf. It takes a LOT of training time to use Ogre IIs. This nerf is a kick in the nutz to anyone who put in that time. When they announced it they made it sound like the nerf would be offset by bigger bays and better named drones. We got the nerf, but I haven't heard anything about the offset. Between this, the Nos nerf, and the damp nerf they have neutered by favorite PVP ship. The OP is right. Everyone will just go to using domis and Ishtars. Certainty of death...small chance of success...what are we waiting for? - Gimli
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.10.24 19:07:00 - [66] Originally by: MrTripps Between this, the Nos nerf, and the damp nerf they have neutered by favorite PVP ship. That's why we get all these whines, because fotm-setup, for which people have trained because of its power, is getting nerfed. And if you think it's useless post-nerf.. flying cookie-cutter setups much?
Kolwrath Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.24 19:15:00 - [67] Edited by: Kolwrath on 24/10/2007 19:15:44 Originally by: Ziena Amani Originally by: MrTripps Between this, the Nos nerf, and the damp nerf they have neutered by favorite PVP ship. That's why we get all these whines, because fotm-setup, for which people have trained because of its power, is getting nerfed. And if you think it's useless post-nerf.. flying cookie-cutter setups much? Yeah thats about the size of it. All the whining here is from the empire pirates who are crying that thier overpowered cookier cutter Orge II + Neut + Nos solo Uber ship is getting balanced. All myrms around trade hubs, camping gates, all use this setup. Its really lame. This is not about anything else but the unimaginative carebear pirates of empire wimpering because thier cookie cutter uber setup will be nerfed. The ship is too power full with the ability to field 5 heavies, grow up all you gankbears.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.24 19:22:00 - [68] Quote: Hardly, such range advantage doesn't mean anything significant if you can't use it for any meaningful amount of time(read - control distance). Controlling distance is one of the most important things in eve pvp. With a blaster ship, you are as much disabled by a web than other ships are disabled by constant ECM. You can't reach anything, so you can't do anything. With longer range ships, the advantage comes from being able to outperform ships at some given range. Either you do it and win, or don't and lose. That's pretty much it... Quote: Remember, you're comparing t2-fit gank battleship with max skills with a battlecruiser.. which does 65% of damage WHILE being able to tank 65% of a tanky battleship amount. Tbh, imho max skill comparisons are a bit redicilous. They are unrealistic as scenarios and most fights happen with much lower standard equipment and skills. Still, considering that it's little brothers are at about the same when you compare it down, then the progression fits... Quote: Err, what? It does around the same dps as gank thorax, while being very tanky and e-war capable. Even more so with a change, say hello to ECM drones... you don't just look and dps and say "meh", try looking at the whole picture instead? It's design is not changed in any significant way, it's still a very drone-capable battlecruisers, with guns to boot and an awesome tank. It still fits between cruisers and battleships, just much closer to where other races' BCs reside Thats just it. Post nerf, if you fit for allout gank, the myrmie will be 60dps better than the rax at 719dps, while with guns and ecm drones the rax will do 20 dps better at 501 dps. Comparing the cost effectiveness of those fits makes the distinction even more clear. You are paying several times more for only a minor increase in efficiency, and it performs even worse when it doesn't fully utilise it's notch specialities. On survivability, I've noticed that while flying with no tank/full gank cruisers, they usually live a lot longer than full tanked BS/BC, simply because they are lower priority targets because "they do so much less dps"... Looking at the whole picture... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.10.24 19:42:00 - [69] Edited by: Ziena Amani on 24/10/2007 19:44:01 Originally by: Laboratus stuff Meh, I've written a nice answer to each of the points made, but forgot to save it before clicking post, ofc forum did not miss such a moment to screw me over Anyhow, myrm currently outperforms gankships and tankships at the same time. That's what wrong with it, after the nerf it still has respectable dps and the tank is untouched. Add. Now if you excuse me.. I doubt you'll cease arguing, but I happen to live at GMT+6 TZ and it's kinda late here I'd like you to see the whole picture, although I doubt it'll happen(yes, I'd be sad too if they nerfed my fav ship, good that's mine is already nerfed to hell, being a gold-plated chicken )
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.10.24 19:53:00 - [70] Personally I don't fly myrmies outside of pve since they are not too cost effective for pvp. I simply find the pro nerf arguments total and utter (otters heh) rubbish, and try to combat false arguments used over and over and over again on these forums... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Lucas Avignon	Posted - 2007.10.24 21:46:00 - [71] The thing people seem to forget about the Myrm is how it works, 9/10 times you will have to web your target to kill it. But wait what if your webbed or the opponent is in a faster ship, not hard lol. Now looking at all those fancy dps figures in EFT is all well and good, but that only applies if the target is webbed to hell and back and is sitting like a good boy 2km in front of you. It has absolutely no range, send those drones too far, they get webbed and won't make it back. But oh I forgot the Myrm is a drone boat, it has spares ... um no. Certain ships bring something to the game, this you can't deny. I'm not sure how important it is for every class of ship in each race to equal the next in the sake of balance. Is it balance or uninspiring boring uniformity? Now this isn't the only ship to which is about to get nerfed into oblivion, the Ishkur and the Eos are about to become useless too. None of these ships are invincible, far from it, they can all be taken out with ease. I might as well mention Super Capitals at this stage, they are far from invincible. Yet CCP want us to believe that it's imbalanced if 5 bs can't take them out. I'm sorry but I'm hardly going to have any aspirations of becoming a Capital ship pilot if I think a ship that costs over 20bn maybe as much as 40bn can be taken out by 5, 6, 7 or 10 bs costing less than 300m (platinium ;) There we go again, another set of ships that becomes less than inspiring. The funny thing is that as I have been writing this, one thing has become apparent. It is the very thing that links all these ships, drones or fighters. Are CCP just trying to get rid of them, maybe to reduce lag. I don't know, but one things for sure, this next patch will be the big gallente/drone nerf. Finally I would just like to say, why instead of taking something from the game. Apart from things like the drakes shield tanking and mom's in lowsec. Instead why can't they buff the Harbringer, give it an extra low, mid or high slot, or maybe increase the damage bonus to 10% There is no point leaving less ships to aspire to in the game, also risk versus reward is very low on these ships as they are all quite expensive. Most see more PvE action than PvP and after this only PvE
Jenea Gallente The Copernicus Institute	Posted - 2007.10.24 22:01:00 - [72] Originally by: Lucas Avignon Well as CCP Oveur reported in his blog: "...we're adding a new constraint on drones, bandwidth. With this, bandwidth determines the number of drones you can control, allowing the dronebay to be considerably increased on drone ships, accommodating more waves or variety. Ubar? Ja!" No, more like fubar, anyway if CCP implement it, the only fair way I think is either give the Myrm 125 mb drone bandwidth or give it 100 mb bandwidth so it can field 4 heavies and increase the drone bay to 175m3 thereby giving you more options, either back up drones or a set of medium and light drones. That was a bold faced lie so people wouldn't complain about the coming changes until later in the process. I don't see much variety on drone ships; I see waves and variety on non-drone ships. Maybe the variety is in the fact I need to fit a remote shield repairer in a high slot now. There simply is not enough drone content (modules, drones, ships, implants, etc.) in the game. I am disappointed CCP felt obligated to hype bandwidth as a boost to drone ships, when in fact, it was not. There were many other ways to provide drone content aside from this garbage. I could care less about the Myrmidon, as I don't fly one. I was lucky in that the Ishtar and Dominix were not given this "variety", but I suspect the Ishtar will eventually.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.10.24 22:57:00 - [73] Quote: Certain ships bring something to the game, this you can't deny. I'm not sure how important it is for every class of ship in each race to equal the next in the sake of balance. Is it balance or uninspiring boring uniformity? Funny that this argument only gets pulled out by people on top of the heap rather than those underneath them. I mean, you don't often hear Amarr players saying, "I like that the Omen is so gimpy. If it were as powerful as a Rupture or Thorax, that would be nothing but uninspiring, boring uniformity." * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2007.10.24 23:09:00 - [74] Edited by: Mister Xerox on 24/10/2007 23:11:29 While I don't agree with all of the contemplated changes (re: carriers), I believe adjusting the drone usage to be in line with how the ships fielding them should do so. Frigs should not deploy medium drones (which are technically 'cruiser' weapons), especially when they get a drone damage bonus as well. Cruisers & BC, even T2, should not be able to field heavy drones (again, technicially a 'battheship' weapon) and then get a damage bonus on top of that. After all, BS haven't got anything near the ability to field a fighter. As for the proposed (and never-to-be-implemented) carrier changes... just make sentries interdict and lowsec & carriers are fixed. How 0.0 fleet combat resolves itself, generally with massive drone blobs, is not a fault of the devs not to forsee how players would use them, its just a fact that when given something players will blob like mad with it... no way to fix that. Oh, and cut the cost of fighters by 75%, increase their sig by 100%, and reduce their 'size' by 50%.
Cagot Gallente Arcanus	Posted - 2007.10.24 23:11:00 - [75] Originally by: Tarminic Except when you fit anything other than turrets on a domi, it and the Myrmidon have the same DPS at one third the cost. You really don't have an issue with that? Or is it that you fly it and just don't want it nerfed? You're saying that if you don't use the Dominix to its max potential, then its DPS is as low as a Myrmidon used to its max potential. I'm unimpressed with your logic. Even if we assume your point of "Oh, dear, I couldn't possibly use the turrets on my Domi", you're still wrong, because if the Myrmidon uses 5 heavies it runs the risk of losing them and losing its DPS 20% at a time. The Dominix is much more versatile: it can pop out a rack of Sentry II's until the enemy gets close, and then run out some heavies if it's a BS, or some lights if it's a wave of frigates. There's really no comparison: the Myrmidon is not at all like a battleship except in very limited situations. The peak DPS doesn't define the ship.
Jenea Gallente The Copernicus Institute	Posted - 2007.10.25 00:04:00 - [76] Originally by: Mister Xerox Edited by: Mister Xerox on 24/10/2007 23:11:29 ...I believe adjusting the drone usage to be in line with how the ships fielding them should do so. Frigs should not deploy medium drones (which are technically 'cruiser' weapons), especially when they get a drone damage bonus as well. I agree, in general, with your premise of keeping drones in line with their turrent sized counterparts. I would like to note a few things, however -- especially about the Ishkur, as that's the only ship affected that I have flown. The Ishkur can currently field 2 medium and 3 scout, or 3 medium and 2 scout with max AF skill, and have no room for extra drones. It has no drone damage bonus; it has a drone bay capacity increase as it's special ship ability, allowing the use of those medium drones, and a 25% hybrid damage bonus. Additionally, it has three turrets, one additional high slot, three medium slots, and three low slots. Compare this to other AFs that can run 4 or 5 weapon systems, gain a full 50% damage bonus, use damage increasing modules (without sacrificing their tank), and use meaningful implants related to their primary damage source. Really, the Ishkur isn't currently overpowered by anyone's standards, even using 3 mediums and 2 scouts. If the Ishkur gets reduced to scout only, it should have the drone bay increase attribute removed and a standard 10% drone damage bonus per level added -- no questions asked. Giving other ships a raw increase in drone bay capacity, then making drone boats increase their drone bay capacity through a ship-based attribute, well, that's pretty lame.

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