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Severus Trajan
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Posted - 2004.02.27 15:12:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Severus Trajan on 27/02/2004 15:13:40
 Quote:
just because a projectile has the same mm diameter does not mean its the same sized bullet there are MANY different aspects which can change the overall size and shape.
Indeed there are, and here the WWII buff feels the need to illustrate with an example regarding different weight of equal-caliber shells:
The German 80cm railroad siege-gun "Dora", had two types of shells available. The first was a high-explosive 10,584 lb shell, with a range of around 45 kilometers. The second was an armour-piercing shell designed to take out fortifications and bunkers, weighing in at 16,540 lb, with a range of around 35 kilometers.
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Hornymatt
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Posted - 2004.02.27 15:58:00 -
[62]
Sounds like it's going to bring a lot more otpions, or at least that i'm going to have to give more thoughts which hybrid ammo i'm going to have to equip for the 425's (blasters always a-m). Typically i've been using irridium and a-m only but will now consider some of the mid range stuff.
Not trained up fully for projectiles yet, so will be starting fresh from that perspective although had intended to use emp and titanium sabot, as i've got bp's for those i shall probably start out that way.
Anyway, this change seems to offer a lot more possibilities and i look forward to trying different set ups.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.02.28 09:45:00 -
[63]
TomB,
I think one of the reasons people don't use many other types of ammo and try to stay in optimals for one or two is the time to change during combat.
The 10 second reload is quite aweful. Its really terrible to be honest.
Would it be an option to ignore capacities of weapons, and to pull the next round from the cargo hold? The users choice of ammo then is really just an indication as to what the next round loaded shall be, so that you are using the right ammo at the right time as easily as changing crystals? Or perhaps pulling from an ammo bay rather then cargohold, and leaving the ammo stored in the ammo bay to be updated by the player from the cargo hold. Ammo bay runs out, the guns stop firing.
Any thoughts as to if that will actually encourage people to change ammo types in battle?
Just a thought...
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2004.02.28 12:19:00 -
[64]
Interesting changes, and as a laser user I believe this will be a big impact on us.
I always have a wide range of crystals available in my hold, but now not only for range purposes, but also cap management! Lovely!
:)
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Aerfen
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Posted - 2004.02.28 18:20:00 -
[65]
It may just be me, but hybrid cap usage has not been a real prob so far. Wouldn't it be more usefull if hybrids had a an inbetween bonus, half volume half cap if they really need changing at all. Lasers do need lower cap usage and to a lesser degree projectiles need a volume decrease but hybrids seem fine as they are. They already have low volume and decent cap usage, combined with the upcoming pg requirments decrease, the only real negative they will have is the high cpu needs.
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Dreez
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Posted - 2004.02.28 22:54:00 -
[66]
There is a huge diffrense between Radio Crystals
and Hybrid Tungsten.
They both give ³ber range to the weapons they
are used in, but damagewise they are no way near
eachother.
Radio gives a $hitload of range, AND killes your shields
very effectivly since it delivers ton of EM damage.
(yes i know 99/100 uses EM-wards).
Tungsten gives a very good range , but does NO damage
whatsoever compared to its energyfriend Mr:Radio..
If you have an Apoc with 4-5 Tachyons setup for damage
at range with Radios - you will still be able to hit
for a serious amount of damage.
Setup a Megathron with 4-5 425¦s using Tungsten Amo
at your Optimal Range (~100km) and you will hit for
complete CRAP.
'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
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Teeth
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Posted - 2004.02.29 02:32:00 -
[67]
Quote:
Setup a Megathron with 4-5 425¦s using Tungsten Amo
at your Optimal Range (~100km) and you will hit for
complete CRAP.
I wouldn't compare 425's to tach's. I think they're definitely closer to Megabeams (though lighter on the cap).
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.29 04:51:00 -
[68]
Quote:
There is a huge diffrense between Radio Crystals
and Hybrid Tungsten.
They both give ³ber range to the weapons they
are used in, but damagewise they are no way near
eachother.
Radio gives a $hitload of range, AND killes your shields
very effectivly since it delivers ton of EM damage.
(yes i know 99/100 uses EM-wards).
Tungsten gives a very good range , but does NO damage
whatsoever compared to its energyfriend Mr:Radio..
If you have an Apoc with 4-5 Tachyons setup for damage
at range with Radios - you will still be able to hit
for a serious amount of damage.
Setup a Megathron with 4-5 425¦s using Tungsten Amo
at your Optimal Range (~100km) and you will hit for
complete CRAP.
100km+ isn't for destroying ships unless you have more than one ship firing. Radio may be great for stripping shields, but it is completely boned against armor. Especially if the person is armor tanking and has a single repairer. A Radio crystal will not destroy that ship. It won't even put it into danger.
When you move back into the cheap seats, your role changes drastically. 100km+ out means focus fire or different targets to me. Carbonized Lead from my Typhoon isn't going to scratch a battleship if I'm firing from 120km. But it will eliminate any frigate screen an opfor may have and I'll be equally immune to reprisal from that range as well.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
shakaZ XIV
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Posted - 2004.02.29 21:28:00 -
[69]
hmm very interesting changes, me like :) might see the mid-range ammo used a bit more.
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Daemun Khanid
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Posted - 2004.03.01 02:55:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Daemun Khanid on 01/03/2004 13:30:00
Think it's an absolutely pointless nerf. (Just refering to the crystals as I lack enough experience in hybrid/projectile usage to have an opinion.) Using 4 tach's with radio's isn't even near enough to bring down a BS's shields so long as their using an EM hardener, which as everyone knows and has already said, 99/100 people do. The other crystals have very little use anyway, if you're in range for multi's you use multi's. If not you use radio's. It's not like we have crystals that actually dish out some other form of damage. It's EM and THERM. To use any crystal but multi's and radio's is pretty much pointless as you're not dealing as many total hit points with any crystal in between.
Only reason I can think they would even come up with some hairbrained idea to effect cap usage is so the can say "just switch crystals" when they nerf the crap outa cap relays and leave beam users high and dry. An new/average piloted apoc with a full load of cap relays can barely keep a XL shield boost running full time now WITHOUT firing a single shot. With a single low slot fitted with any thing BUT a cap relay, a XL booster or MWD will completely drain cap in no time. With cap relays nerfed Amarr BS's with beams will become absolutely useless.
So much for trying to RP and keep to Amarr ships and weapons. So much for 7 mil skill points all focused on the use of energy weapons and Amarrian ships. Guess it's time to start a new character. At this rate we'll all be flying scorps loaded down with EW gear and nothing else. Yay, swing that nerf bat. Yet another homerun in the making. Sorry I'm abit bitter. THE GAME IS PRETTY WELL BALANCED. It's not a perfect world, what's the point in even having different weapons if the goal is to make them all COMPLETELY equal. Leave it alone. All you're doing now is making us throw months of training down the drain. Does it not even cross peoples minds what kind of effect these kinds of changes have on people who have spent months focusing their training? Over 7 mil skill points on a character that can't fly jack but Amarr ships, use's nothing but Amarr weapons and you decide almost a year after release to just make those ships/weapons useless. WOW. If you wanna nerf somthing, nerf the UBER Jammers every Caldari ship in space is loaded with. To fit an Apoc with enough equipment to beat their jammers leaves you without so much as a shield booster you can operate. And instead it's been determined that CAP RELAYS ARE TOO POWERFULL? Please tell me this is all just a bad dream, and when I wake up the DEV's will have long since stopped the pointless nerfing spree's.
Sorry again, I've just read TOO much about this lately and haven't said a word. I prefer to just take the nerf, and work around as best I can but it's getting rediculous this late in the game to be making such drastic changes to functionality.
BTW. My idiotic comments and complaints in no way reflect the views, opinions, or official stance of PIE Inc., as a matter of fact I'll probably get a scolding for being such an immature loud mouth on the forums. Sometimes you just gotta say SOMETHING.
VADM. Daemun of Khanid |
Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.03.01 06:26:00 -
[71]
Quote:
Think it's an absolutely pointless nerf. Using 4 tach's with radio's isn't even near enough to bring down a BS's shields so long as their using an EM hardener, which as everyone knows and has already said, 99/100 people do. The other crystals have very little use anyway, if you're in range for multi's you use multi's. If not you use radio's. It's not like we have crystals that actually dish out some other form of damage. It's EM and THERM. To use any crystal but multi's and radio's is pretty much pointless as you're not dealing as many total hit points with any crystal in between.
Nerf? What? These changes are NOT increasing the energy usage of lasers, they either have no effect on the energy usage, or REDUCE it. In other words, it's a buff, whatever way you look at it!
Another thing is... Nobody says you HAVE to use multifrequency all the time. Matter of fact, the damage output of a tachyon at 45km or so using either multifrequency or radio is WORSE than using ultraviolet at the same range.
And now ultraviolet will only cost 60% cap to fire. Sounds good to me.
Agreed though, microwave/gamma etc are pretty pointless, but ultraviolet is quite a good crystal.
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Darkwolf
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Posted - 2004.03.01 06:33:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Darkwolf on 01/03/2004 06:34:17
Quote:
I think one of the reasons people don't use many other types of ammo and try to stay in optimals for one or two is the time to change during combat.
Or perhaps pulling from an ammo bay rather then cargohold, and leaving the ammo stored in the ammo bay to be updated by the player from the cargo hold. Ammo bay runs out, the guns stop firing.
And ruffles wins the prize!!!!
It's a pain the backside swapping out ammunition in hybrids and projectiles, especially when laser users get to swap instantly. Having something like an ammo bay you can keep your rounds in, and then load up from that is a great idea.
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Falhofnir
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Posted - 2004.03.01 07:25:00 -
[73]
nice change imho, will definately encourage the use of mid ammos, but the recharging UI NEEDS to be rethought totally.
right clicking, having to wait for ammo stacks to unstack after having to wait for gun to stop its cycle ...
give us a shortcut to reload same ammo, maybe shiftclick the module or something, and fix the unstacking of ammo stacks lag (and the endless cargohold windows that results could use a fix too :) .
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2004.03.01 11:12:00 -
[74]
Quote:
I gives a boost to midrange stuff, which, in turn creates more choices. Choices are good.
Excessive levels of choice have recently been shown to create deadlock, stasis and depression.
Is Eve a plot by the big drug companies to create a market for their anti-depressants?
Severe
And Moses was content to dwell with the man:and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom:for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land. |
Sqalevon
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Posted - 2004.03.01 14:11:00 -
[75]
Quote:
Totally off topic, I know, but why does a 1400mm projectile gun use the same ammo as a 1200mm anyway?
Presumably the 1200 / 1400 refers to the diameter of the barrel, so each gun should have it's own specific size of ammo.
o i can think of something, u know the armor piercing shells they use in the army, these shells open while in flight and a missile shaped projectile is whats left ( small and long ) well they also use it in eve, and the containers in wich these missiles are launched vary, but the missile thingy stays the same size, the container is used to transfet the energy to the missile, and the size of the container dictates the speed ( range falloff damage ) it does.
And for Hybrids, I dont know how Hybrids work in EVE ( neutron blasters !? ) but i know that a railgun works like this, u get 2 coils and put a extremely strong capacitor between them, the projectile is sitting between them, and when the capacitor is shortcut, there is a huge current trough the coils, and the projectile picks this up and is slung away with huge speed, bigger containers ( that hold the projectile ) means more enerrgy is picked up from the coils, and the speed ( range falloff damage ) is again higher, then the container is blocked at the end of the barrel, and the stream of mater is ejected from it with huge speed.
i dont have a clue how a neutron blaster works :P
but i think something similar can be made up for it :)
and about the crystals, high damage requires huge energies, and huge range also requires huge energies, to aim and bundle a beam so precice, it requires pinpoint electromagnetic fields ( like in your TV ) to aim the thing acurately and for close range, there has to be put in alot of energy to make it do huge damage
hmmm did that sound convincing ? :)
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Daemun Khanid
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Posted - 2004.03.01 14:19:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Daemun Khanid on 01/03/2004 14:21:15
My only real point I suppose in argueing these loadout changes was the fact that the only really reason I can see for decreasing the Cap usage of beams based on the crystals is to justify the use of beams if they follow through with a cap relay nerf. So that when/IF the relay nerf hits and people start complaining that they loose all power within just a couple seconds, everyone can just tell them to suck it up and load a weaker crystal. A weaker crystal for a beam that ALREADY does little damage. If you wanna balance things how about giving the Amarr some new energy turret/crystal that actually does explosive/kinetic damage?
As far as the changes to charge size for projectiles I really don't know enough to comment. But changing cap req's for hybrids makes little sense considering they use so little cap anyway. Hence why this seems extremely aimed towards energy weapons. The changes to hybrids/proj almost seem thrown in just so people don't complain that just the energy turrets are getting changed.
VADM. Daemun of Khanid |
Sqalevon
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Posted - 2004.03.01 14:39:00 -
[77]
If u want to do different damage types, use hybrids or projectile.
I know i would slap on a tachyon with a radio chrystal if i wanted to do EMP damage from huge ranges.
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Daemun Khanid
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Posted - 2004.03.01 15:02:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Daemun Khanid on 01/03/2004 15:04:26
If I was I minmatar, caldari, or gallente I'd be happy to strap on Hybrids or projectiles. However being that I'm "RP'ing" Amarr and have spent 8 months focusing training on energy turrets and energy usage it's kinda screwed up don't you think to try and tell me that I'm just gonna have to start over from square one and start training hybrid/projectile turrets? To throw my RP out the window? Just because someone feels the need to make energy turrets and Amarrian ships absolutely useless. And all in the name of BALANCING, when in reality all it's doing is tipping the scales more in the favor of the Caldari and other races than they already are.
VADM. Daemun of Khanid |
Sqalevon
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Posted - 2004.03.01 15:15:00 -
[79]
Quote:
Edited by: Daemun Khanid on 01/03/2004 15:04:26
If I was I minmatar, caldari, or gallente I'd be happy to strap on Hybrids or projectiles. However being that I'm "RP'ing" Amarr and have spent 8 months focusing training on energy turrets and energy usage it's kinda screwed up don't you think to try and tell me that I'm just gonna have to start over from square one and start training hybrid/projectile turrets? To throw my RP out the window? Just because someone feels the need to make energy turrets and Amarrian ships absolutely useless. And all in the name of BALANCING, when in reality all it's doing is tipping the scales more in the favor of the Caldari and other races than they already are.
Amarr ships nor lasers will be made useless, on the contrary, using different types of crystals even gives u a advantage because it usess less cap.
The people that will see the biggest advantage are the Apoc flier, they still have their huge cap, but now will have more cap left IF they use different crystals.
The problem is, we know u use Lasers and can equip accordingly, that doesnt take away that u are still very good at shieldtanking wich gives u enough time to dish out damage to us.
And lets be honest, u arent doing bad, are u ?
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Daemun Khanid
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Posted - 2004.03.01 15:23:00 -
[80]
The change to charges really doesn't concern me. I'm quite content as things are keeping 100% cap usage for all crystals. It the potential Cap relay nerf that this change seems to allude to that disturb's me. With nerfed cap relays the only way to keep beams online will be to use the weakest crystals. Add that on top of the fact that beams are already comparetively weak and we loose our defensive capability provided by shields boosters. Basically we're left with NO defensive capability and NO offensive capability. If you're going to make Amarr ships just as easy to destroy as every other ship then atleast give us weapons and EW capabilities that are good as the other ships.
VADM. Daemun of Khanid |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2004.03.01 15:32:00 -
[81]
Quote:
Amarr ships nor lasers will be made useless, on the contrary, using different types of crystals even gives u a advantage because it usess less cap.
The people that will see the biggest advantage are the Apoc flier, they still have their huge cap, but now will have more cap left IF they use different crystals.
The problem is, we know u use Lasers and can equip accordingly, that doesnt take away that u are still very good at shieldtanking wich gives u enough time to dish out damage to us.
And lets be honest, u arent doing bad, are u ?
Yea, we can use our XL booster..untill the next patch ofcourse, which will **** with every race a bit, but Amarr ships the most ofcourse.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Sqalevon
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Posted - 2004.03.01 15:37:00 -
[82]
Ahhh i see what u mean, taking the cap relay nerf into account.
Hmmm
I think time will tell in wich way TomB is going to balance it, i'm he wont mess it up.
And if he does :P
we might just win a few battles :)
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Sqalevon
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Posted - 2004.03.01 15:41:00 -
[83]
Deamund, would u fight me 1 vs 1 this evening on Chaos to test out some stuff ?
i believe the cap relay thingy is already changed there.
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Hardin
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Posted - 2004.03.01 15:56:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Hardin on 01/03/2004 16:38:31
Edited to save myself looking like an arse. Prolly too late tho 
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Saladin
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Posted - 2004.03.01 19:11:00 -
[85]
Daemun,
I agree with you on the cap relay nerf, it totally sucks. But you know what is going to happen? Cap relay II will be released and it will have the stats of the old cap relay. They keep nerfing stuff and then introducing Tech II items that have the old stats of the pre-nerf Tech I item. Watch each Tech II item as it is released and you'll find what I am saying to be true.
---------------------------
(c) Copyright Saladin, 2005.
Any editing of this post by a third party will be in violation United States Internet Copyright law 46525 of 2003. |
Daemun Khanid
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Posted - 2004.03.01 21:52:00 -
[86]
As sad as that is Sal, you're probably absolutly correct. And what ever corp is lucky enough to get that BP will make millions off of an incredibly cheaply produced module because every beam using ship in Eve will have to have them or give up on beam weapons all together.
VADM. Daemun of Khanid |
Hardin
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Posted - 2004.03.02 14:57:00 -
[87]
AFAIK there is no CAP RELAY nerf yet and we are all just talking about rumours started by someone who got confused on Chaos! 
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2004.03.02 23:45:00 -
[88]
Quote:
Edited by: Darkwolf on 01/03/2004 06:34:17
Quote:
I think one of the reasons people don't use many other types of ammo and try to stay in optimals for one or two is the time to change during combat.
Or perhaps pulling from an ammo bay rather then cargohold, and leaving the ammo stored in the ammo bay to be updated by the player from the cargo hold. Ammo bay runs out, the guns stop firing.
And ruffles wins the prize!!!!
It's a pain the backside swapping out ammunition in hybrids and projectiles, especially when laser users get to swap instantly. Having something like an ammo bay you can keep your rounds in, and then load up from that is a great idea.
I totally agree. I n the quick fights of Eve you can't afford to spend time changing ammo when you should be dealing damage.
Therefore i suggest to Tomb that he makes it possible to change the ammo type of projectiles and hybrids while in use. Of course this should not effect the reloading fo turrets, so a change of ammo type should resuslt in the remaining ammo being replaced by the same number of rounds from another type.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Sally
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Posted - 2004.03.03 07:22:00 -
[89]
This PIE whinage has to stop, if you don't know how to use your Amarrian ships as deadly weapons, stop playing the game...
--
Stories: #1
--
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2004.03.03 16:30:00 -
[90]
Oh my :)
Please stop hurting our feelings, or we'll quit!
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