EVE Search - Why Carriers will STILL be Preferred to Jump Freighters.

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Test Server Feedback

Why Carriers will STILL be Preferred to Jump Freighters.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page]

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:17:00 - [1] Sometimes I dont think CCP is thinking things through. The most obvious examples of this are the turret bonuses on Covert Ops ships -- as if someone is going to combat fit a Helios. When it comes to tech 2 freighters CCP is poised to make another silly blunder. Instead of making them the preferred method of conveyance and getting carriers back into the combat job as a primary role, the new tech 2 freighters will still leave carriers as the primary logistic means for the following reasons: You still can take assembled ships in a carrier and you cant in a tech 2 frieghter. With rigs getting blown up if you repackage a ship and with rigs becomming more common, people will use the carrier to jump these. Freighters can still only jump 5ly to the carrier's 6. At Jump Drive Calibration 4, that gives the carrier SIGNIFICANT range over the freighter. This means that the carriers will be able to make many trips in 0.0 that will be difficult to make in a freighter. The bonuses on the tech 2 freighters are badly concieved. Minmatar Freighter Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cargo hold capacity and 5% bonus to maximum velocity per level Jump Freighters Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to hull hit points and 5% reduction in jump fuel need per level Looking at the bonuses I can honestly say that the Jump Freighters bonuses are silly at best. No one in a freighter is going to care about more hull HP. If you are tackled and your excort cant repel the attack, an extra 50% hp is pointless. Furthermore, the speed bonus is a really bad joke. You might get the thing up to, what, 150m/s at max skills? Who cares? Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself. With the 30 second dock bonus on changing session an enemy fleet coupld easily wipe it out before the session timer expires and it can dock. They would just ignore the rest of the fleet and focus on the freighter. How long does it take 20 BS to kill a freighter now? The resistances in the freighters are on their armor and not on their structure where the majority of their HP is located. Therefore, their vulnerability is extremely high. The real changes that need to be made are: Role bonus: Assembled ships take the same amount of space as the unassembled version of the ship. Jump distance needs to be upped to 6ly. At least then they can keep up with the carrier escort. []Minmatar freighter bonus for speed needs to be changed to agility. Everyone in a freighter warps to 0, being able to align faster is much more. []The hull HP bonus for the freighters should be changed to a further cargo capacity bonus or perhaps a compression bonus for minerals. If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rahnaar Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:35:00 - [2] Originally by: Rells The real changes that need to be made are: [list][*]Role bonus: Assembled ships take the same amount of space as the unassembled version of the ship. While I can see your points on most everything you wrote, and most of it makes sense, the above really does not. Just like a T1 freighter is not meant to transport assembled ships, a T2 freighter should not be able to transport them. A carrier is a carrier for a reason, transporting assembled ships is a carriers role (or one of it's many roles anyway). The notion about rigs has some merit, but it's just as easy to not rig the ship priot to transport, or buy a new one for transport and subsequent rigging. If one can't afford to have a few duplicate setups then one probably shouldn't be playing around in major conflicts anyway. Transporting assembled ships in a freighter is completely unacceptable.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.02 09:41:00 - [3] A carrier is different because those ships can be pulled out of the maintenance bay in space and the other ships can refit in the bay in space. In the case of the Jump Freighter, it would be transport from station to station only. Therefore the carrier retains its role and the logistics retain theirs. Also keep in mind that battleships wont fit in a carrier either. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Kokob	Posted - 2007.11.02 10:14:00 - [4] Unless its has changed, Bs's have had their volume while assembled reduced by half. I saw a raven with 485,000 m3, though the apoc was 515,000 m3 and the megathron around 513,000 m3 if i remember. However, bc's have had their volume almost doubled. It could have changed but thats what i saw a few days ago. so a carrier could carry two fitted bs possibly.
Lady Beauvoir Slutty Witches	Posted - 2007.11.02 10:22:00 - [5] Yes, it seems that carriers are the ships that should transport combat-ready ships to 0.0 and jump freighters should transport supplies - at least as far as the current changes on sisi stand. And it's good: different ships, different roles, sounds balanced to me. The only thing I'm hoping to be changed is the possibility to use dreads and rorquals for jump hauling. Remove that and everything's set. "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connaet point." -Blaise Pascal, PensTes, 4, 277
Hyakuchan Earth Federation Space Force	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:36:00 - [6] Edited by: Hyakuchan on 02/11/2007 11:37:47 Originally by: Rells []Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself. Because you can't put ships with cargo into it anymore. Quote:* nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. It is if it forces you to use the alternative.
benze Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.02 11:53:00 - [7] with the new freighter, i can take 5 bs repackage, and with the nerf of the old freighter. i wouldn t use jump bridge. So no jump bridge and i will use auto cynosural for the dread. I m waiting for this freighters.
Soratah Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:23:00 - [8] I believe the carrier has had it's ship maintenance bay expanded to 1,000,000m3 on Sisi (can someone check after patch to confirm?) so that's two fitted BS'
Kay Han Caldari Friendship 7 Corporation STYX.	Posted - 2007.11.02 13:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Soratah I believe the carrier has had it's ship maintenance bay expanded to 1,000,000m3 on Sisi (can someone check after patch to confirm?) so that's two fitted BS' Confirmed Corphangar is still stuck @10k Originally by: CCP Atropos Personally I think Amarr ships should consume slaves in a similar way that other ships consume ammunition.
5n4keyes Sacred Templars DeStInY.	Posted - 2007.11.02 14:20:00 - [10] Personally i feel they should be given a single slot, but can only fit a capital shield, or armor rep. The Jump freighters skill should add a resistance bonus. Would make them alot more 0.0 useful

Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.02 16:53:00 - [11] Well certainly no one is going to use them if they can be popped in the time it takes to wait out the session timer to dock. That is what they will be if their current stats are made final. Sure you can have protection, but I ask, who would YOU primary in that fleet? I dont know aobut you but I would call the freighter primary. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Riley Craven Caldari Sunshine Carebear Crew	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:17:00 - [12] You've forgotten one small point Rells... Carriers and Rorq wont be able to carry haulers with cargo in them anymore. To compensate they get bigger cargo holds. I think last I saw a Rorq could 120k of space with expanders etc. Not to mention the fact you could prob put GSC in them too... Oh and one last thing as long as they are t2 no one will fly them, or at least there will be so few of them it wont matter. Rorqs will be the new haulers of choice if these changes go live, not carriers, and not t2 freighers
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.11.02 18:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 02/11/2007 09:01:04 Sometimes I dont think CCP is thinking things through. The most obvious examples of this are the turret bonuses on Covert Ops ships -- as if someone is going to combat fit a Helios. snip Come again? (yea, not a helios, but still a cov-ops) Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.03 00:21:00 - [14] Edited by: Rells on 03/11/2007 00:21:34 Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 02/11/2007 09:01:04 Sometimes I dont think CCP is thinking things through. The most obvious examples of this are the turret bonuses on Covert Ops ships -- as if someone is going to combat fit a Helios. snip Come again? (yea, not a helios, but still a cov-ops) Killmails are easily faked. Even with a full combat load, the crow would have to be dead still and afk for an anethema to kill it. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.03 00:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Soratah I believe the carrier has had it's ship maintenance bay expanded to 1,000,000m3 on Sisi (can someone check after patch to confirm?) so that's two fitted BS' If this is true then it is yet more reason to not use the freighter over the carrier. You get just over 2 times the volume and have no tank, no ability to carry ships without destroying rigs and cant jump as far. The fact that you cannot put loaded haulers in a carrier is more than made up for by the increase in bay size. Before you couldnt even put a single BS in a carrier so in fact their hauling capability has been INCREASED. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Red Harvest	Posted - 2007.11.03 00:57:00 - [16] I think those jump freighters will still be quite usefull for supplying newly conquered stations or POS warfare or mining ops (combined with a rorqual) or emergency evacs. Unless the price prohibits i will certainly get me one of them and the extra 47d training for freighter V aint really shocking me neither.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.05 05:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Red Harvest I think those jump freighters will still be quite usefull for supplying newly conquered stations or POS warfare or mining ops (combined with a rorqual) or emergency evacs. Unless the price prohibits i will certainly get me one of them and the extra 47d training for freighter V aint really shocking me neither. The jump freighter shouldn't be just a toy for the super alliances. They have enough toys that it is time to focus on the rest of us. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Zeoliter Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.05 10:12:00 - [18] Bonus could a jump range bonus per level. :)
Schneiderr Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2007.11.05 12:35:00 - [19] i like the reason that carriers can recharge their cap for the next jump a lot fast then jump freighters will ever be able to :)
Ciara Daag	Posted - 2007.11.05 15:52:00 - [20] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 05/11/2007 05:54:30 Sometimes I dont think CCP is thinking things through. The most obvious examples of this are the turret bonuses on Covert Ops ships -- as if someone is going to combat fit a Helios. When it comes to tech 2 freighters CCP is poised to make another silly blunder. Instead of making them the preferred method of conveyance and getting carriers back into the combat job as a primary role, the new tech 2 freighters will still leave carriers as the primary logistic means for the following reasons: You still can take assembled ships in a carrier and you cant in a tech 2 frieghter. With rigs getting blown up if you repackage a ship and with rigs becomming more common, people will use the carrier to jump these. Freighters can still only jump 5ly to the carrier's 6. At Jump Drive Calibration 4, that gives the carrier SIGNIFICANT range over the freighter. This means that the carriers will be able to make many trips in 0.0 that will be difficult to make in a freighter. The bonuses on the tech 2 freighters are badly concieved. Minmatar Freighter Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cargo hold capacity and 5% bonus to maximum velocity per level Jump Freighters Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to hull hit points and 5% reduction in jump fuel need per level Looking at the bonuses I can honestly say that the Jump Freighters bonuses are silly at best. No one in a freighter is going to care about more hull HP. If you are tackled and your excort cant repel the attack, an extra 50% hp is pointless. Furthermore, the speed bonus is a really bad joke. You might get the thing up to, what, 150m/s at max skills? Who cares? Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself. With the 30 second dock bonus on changing session an enemy fleet coupld easily wipe it out before the session timer expires and it can dock. They would just ignore the rest of the fleet and focus on the freighter. How long does it take 20 BS to kill a freighter now? The resistances in the freighters are on their armor and not on their structure where the majority of their HP is located. Therefore, their vulnerability is extremely high. The real changes that need to be made are: Role bonus: Assembled ships take the same amount of space as the unassembled version of the ship. Jump distance needs to be upped to 6ly. At least then they can keep up with the carrier escort. Bonus for speed needs to be changed to agility. Everyone in a freighter warps to 0, being able to align faster is much more important than subwarp speed. In fact subwarp speed of a freighter is beyond useless. The hull HP bonus for the freighters should be changed to a 10% additional cargo capacity bonus and a 20% reduction in size of minerals and ice products per level. If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea. Actually,your way off base here. If there is any possible reason to use a carrier over a jump freighter,they will just nerf that too,but thanks for giving the devs a heads up....

Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.05 15:58:00 - [21] I disagree with the OP. Moving ships is not the main use of the Carrier in 0.0 logistics. Moving large quantities of POS fuel is. Since we are getting the Carriers ability to have items inside the ships nerfed, (CCP just wants us to waste time doing Alliance Logistics, its seems) the Jump Freighter will be most welcome. I really don't care about the cost...I'll trade my Carrier and my Dread for one. The only reason you see Carriers, Dreads and now Rorquals hauling stuff is cuz CCP wouldn't give us the Jump Freighter earlier. I agree that the bonuses don't seem to reflect what is important to a Jump Freighter captain. Cargo bonus is nice, but the rest is junk. No one expected a Jump Freighter to jump as far as a Carrier. Shorter jump ranges will make for a slight realignment on the jump route, that's all. Besides, many jump routes were shorter distances anyway because of the Dreads jumping along with Carriers. I don't see any logic in removing the ability to store ships with cargo and the increase in the Ship Maint Bay size. As soon as you can't have cargo in the ships, the Ship Maint Bay will be emptied of Industrials. True, it would be nice to move Battleships. However that ability is nowhere near an equal trade-off for removing the cargo from the ships.
Anderson Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.05 16:38:00 - [22] Originally by: Rells How long does it take 20 BS to kill a freighter now 10 BS . And faster than concord gets there.
Varrakk Chosen Path	Posted - 2007.11.05 17:53:00 - [23] Edited by: Varrakk on 05/11/2007 17:53:34 Why the Carrier nerf fails: Thanatos pre nerf: Occator w/Rigs and Expanders: 35,5k m3 Viator w/Rigs and Expanders: 10k m3 Corp Hangar w/3 GSC: 12700m3 Total capacity: 58200m3 Moros not gonna be nerfed: 7x Cargo Expanders and 3x rigs: 70800m3 22x GSC: +19800m3 Total capacity (w30k fuel) 85800m3 Carrier cargo nerf will have zero effect. Theres no reason for us to train Freighter 5 and buy a ship that got a insane pricetag. Dreadnaughts already outperform Carriers. My test Moros had a shield tank, drones and 2 medium rails w/Siege mode. Capable of hitting Cruisers and up to Battleships (Granted its not aweinspiring tank and firepower, but it beats a Jumpfreighter)
Ruciza	Posted - 2007.11.05 18:11:00 - [24] Nothing beats a jump freighter. Cargo capacity is all that matters.
Riley Craven Caldari Sunshine Carebear Crew	Posted - 2007.11.05 18:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Ruciza Nothing beats a jump freighter. Cargo capacity is all that matters. until you realize they will be half the cost of a mothership and be able to carry less stuff.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.11.05 20:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 03/11/2007 00:21:34 Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 02/11/2007 09:01:04 Sometimes I dont think CCP is thinking things through. The most obvious examples of this are the turret bonuses on Covert Ops ships -- as if someone is going to combat fit a Helios. snip Come again? (yea, not a helios, but still a cov-ops) Killmails are easily faked. Even with a full combat load, the crow would have to be dead still and afk for an anethema to kill it. Its real. You can contact the crow pilot if you want to confirm. As for how....easy...everyone charges at covops to stop them from cloaking/decloak them...and if you have a web, then the crow IS standing still. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Sklaveneinkaeufer	Posted - 2007.11.05 20:52:00 - [27] I am not shure all talk about carriers ect. what is whit the Roqual ? On SiSi 40000m3 and 3 Low Slots and 3 Rig slots. Makes 143263m3 by let say 2,5Bn isk AND the fuel cost per m3 is on the roqual even better, lets say fuel con. on 5 and its silly i know Jumpfreighter 5 makes 0,0044 per m3 Isotops for Jumpfreighter and 0,0034 per m3 for Roqual. And both ships can jump equal far.
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.05 21:18:00 - [28] Can the jumping freighters also use stargates and go into high sec space? If they can, great but they are big targets, they need a lot more survivability. Jumping them to a station and waiting for 20 seconds to dock can also be risky but if there's a trap waiting, there's sure to be signs in local. -Bart
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.11.05 21:29:00 - [29] Originally by: Rells The hull HP bonus for the freighters should be changed to a 10% additional cargo capacity bonus and a 20% reduction in size of minerals and ice products per level. If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea. I strongly agree with you on this. Jump freighters are still less useful than the much cheaper and easily defended Carriers and piling yet another nerf onto Carriers isn't the way to go. Most of your suggestions are good but I don't think a 20% reduction per level would work well as that would be 100% at L5 and being able to transport an infinite amount of minerals -while essentially removing one of the more annoying aspects of the game, 0.0 logistics- seems very unrealistic. Sig removed. Please keep sigs to 400x120 pixels and 24000 bytes in size or less. -Kaemonn
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.05 22:11:00 - [30] Real bonus the jump frieghters are gonna need is 10% reduction in capacitor regeneration per level. They can't fit mods so those of us who live 6 jumps from empire are gonna have to spend the whole evening to move them.

Tunajuice Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.06 01:34:00 - [31] I don't think many people here disagree that jump freighters need some help to be useful. Hopefully CCP changes it now, and doesn't follow the typical pattern of releasing broken content and then "fixing it" 6 months later :P There are many ways to make t2 freighters better.. but definitely the cost and the functionality compared to a moros and a roq need looked at.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: Rells The hull HP bonus for the freighters should be changed to a 10% additional cargo capacity bonus and a 20% reduction in size of minerals and ice products per level. If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea. I strongly agree with you on this. Jump freighters are still less useful than the much cheaper and easily defended Carriers and piling yet another nerf onto Carriers isn't the way to go. Most of your suggestions are good but I don't think a 20% reduction per level would work well as that would be 100% at L5 and being able to transport an infinite amount of minerals -while essentially removing one of the more annoying aspects of the game, 0.0 logistics- seems very unrealistic. I should have clarified. I mean it to be a cumulative thing such that at level 1 it is reduced by 20% but at level 2 it is reduced by 20% of the 80% that remains and so on. For example, if a a block of minerals took 100m3 at level 0 it would take 80 at level 1 and 64 at level 2 and so on. However, we could simply change it to provide a 18% reduction per level to make the math easier. At level 5 minerals would take up only one tenth of the space they do in other ships. This bonus should also be on the tech 1 freighter in my opinion because it will encourage their use and make moving minerals much easier. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:51:00 - [33] Maybe it's just that you didn't understand the use of each ship. Carriers are still here to move assembled and fitted ships with some spare parts in the corp hangar. It's fast ship replacement for battle. Freighters are here to move everything else, minerals, various equipement, packaged ships that will not go directly to the battlefield (destination will be POS or station). The T2 freighter price can be argued, the small cargohold can also be argued, but the fact that they will work fine can't. The actual cap recharge rate makes them the fastest jumping cap ship, and it is a good thing. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Say hello to my tiny friends !
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:17:00 - [34] The carrier would still be relevant in the fact that it would be able to deploy those ships in space. There is a need to move a large number of assembled ships such as insured and rigged ships. The jump freighter would not be able to deploy those ships in space whereas the carrier would be. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.11.09 03:38:00 - [35] Edited by: Vicious Phoenix on 09/11/2007 03:38:48 Originally by: Rells If this is true then it is yet more reason to not use the freighter over the carrier. You get just over 2 times the volume and have no tank, no ability to carry ships without destroying rigs and cant jump as far. The fact that you cannot put loaded haulers in a carrier is more than made up for by the increase in bay size. Before you couldnt even put a single BS in a carrier so in fact their hauling capability has been INCREASED. Carriers can carry 10k m3 of minerals/fuel/etc. Have fun fueling POS with 10k m3 each trip or moving minerals. Additionally, I don't think jump freighters should be able to rep themselves, but 15% to hull resistance/level seems like a much better and more logical bonus than 10% HP/level. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
Chockcat Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.09 04:22:00 - [36] Edited by: Chockcat on 09/11/2007 04:23:08 Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 08/11/2007 16:58:25 Sometimes I dont think CCP is thinking things through. The most obvious examples of this are the turret bonuses on Covert Ops ships -- as if someone is going to combat fit a Helios. When it comes to tech 2 freighters CCP is poised to make another silly blunder. Instead of making them the preferred method of conveyance and getting carriers back into the combat job as a primary role, the new tech 2 freighters will still leave carriers as the primary logistic means for the following reasons: You still can take assembled ships in a carrier and you cant in a tech 2 frieghter. With rigs getting blown up if you repackage a ship and with rigs becomming more common, people will use the carrier to jump these. Freighters can still only jump 5ly to the carrier's 6. At Jump Drive Calibration 4, that gives the carrier SIGNIFICANT range over the freighter. This means that the carriers will be able to make many trips in 0.0 that will be difficult to make in a freighter. The bonuses on the tech 2 freighters are badly concieved. Minmatar Freighter Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cargo hold capacity and 5% bonus to maximum velocity per level Jump Freighters Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to hull hit points and 5% reduction in jump fuel need per level Looking at the bonuses I can honestly say that the Jump Freighters bonuses are silly at best. No one in a freighter is going to care about more hull HP. If you are tackled and your excort cant repel the attack, an extra 50% hp is pointless. Furthermore, the speed bonus is a really bad joke. You might get the thing up to, what, 150m/s at max skills? Who cares? Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself. With the 30 second dock bonus on changing session an enemy fleet coupld easily wipe it out before the session timer expires and it can dock. They would just ignore the rest of the fleet and focus on the freighter. How long does it take 20 BS to kill a freighter now? The resistances in the freighters are on their armor and not on their structure where the majority of their HP is located. Therefore, their vulnerability is extremely high. The real changes that need to be made are: Role bonus: Assembled ships take the same amount of space as the unassembled version of the ship. Jump distance needs to be upped to 6ly. At least then they can keep up with the carrier escort. Bonus for speed needs to be changed to agility. Everyone in a freighter warps to 0, being able to align faster is much more important than subwarp speed. In fact subwarp speed of a freighter is beyond useless. The hull HP bonus for the freighters should be changed to a 10% additional cargo capacity bonus and a 18% reduction in size of minerals and ice products per level. I would add this bonus for hauling minerals to the tech 1 freighter as well. If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea. No matter what you think. You're using the carrier for a role it wasn't suppose to be used for. I will make this real simple and easy for you. Can I have your stuff?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:40:00 - [37] Originally by: Chockcat No matter what you think. You're using the carrier for a role it wasn't suppose to be used for. I will make this real simple and easy for you. Can I have your stuff? Next time read the thread please. Then you wont post something so non-sequitur. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Scimon Tinker	Posted - 2007.11.09 20:57:00 - [38] hey hey I still dont understand why a freighter doesnt get slots for anything. The addition of a mid slot will at least give it the ability to fit a capital shield booster at the very least. I also still dont understand why freighters cant take from cans in space. I rigged iteron V can just as easily scoop a full can. Those points aside the ship bonuses are indeed useless but what else can you give them. they carry cargo from point a to b and dump into a station or a pos. Align speed would be nice but if its going to be jumped theres no need for alignment and the destination jump will most likely be 0m on a station The jump range is ok as its biggest advantage is the abiliity to jump from empire high sec to 0.0. I expect many (non combat) characters to travel safely through empire to the closest jump out point then jump into 0.0/low sec

CCP Nozh	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:20:00 - [39] Hi Rells, sorry for the late reply. I did look at it earlier, but didn't have the time to reply at the time. @ Bonuses, they might still be changed to make them more effective vs. other options. The 50% increase in hull was to decrease the possibility of this ship being suicide killed in high sec. @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. @ "Time it takes to kill a freighter" Well, you might need logistics ships to support the freighter if that really becomes a problem, the T2 version has more HP on hull, armor and shield, so they should be harder for smaller gangs to "insta-gank" @ "Jump Distance to 6ly." Like I said before, we're still looking at ways to make freighters a more obvious choice over the other options. This might be one of them. @ "Role bonus" I'd rather see carriers and motherships as the main ship transporters. @ "If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea." Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion. Nozh Game Designer CCP Games

Zarch AlDain The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:42:00 - [40] Originally by: CCP Nozh Hi Rells, sorry for the late reply. I did look at it earlier, but didn't have the time to reply at the time. @ Bonuses, they might still be changed to make them more effective vs. other options. The 50% increase in hull was to decrease the possibility of this ship being suicide killed in high sec. @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. @ "Time it takes to kill a freighter" Well, you might need logistics ships to support the freighter if that really becomes a problem, the T2 version has more HP on hull, armor and shield, so they should be harder for smaller gangs to "insta-gank" @ "Jump Distance to 6ly." Like I said before, we're still looking at ways to make freighters a more obvious choice over the other options. This might be one of them. @ "Role bonus" I'd rather see carriers and motherships as the main ship transporters. @ "If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea." Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion. Have you considered making one of the bonuses a 5% per level increase to jump range? That would give a highly skilled jump freighter a longer range than a carrier - but only with substantial training time investment. Zarch AlDain

Paxx Aerion	Posted - 2007.11.12 17:58:00 - [41] Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. In otherwords YOU WILL USE THIS SHIP BECAUSE WE WILL FORCE YOU TO USE IT!
Kaiji Vincente	Posted - 2007.11.12 18:26:00 - [42] Originally by: Zarch AlDain Have you considered making one of the bonuses a 5% per level increase to jump range? That would give a highly skilled jump freighter a longer range than a carrier - but only with substantial training time investment. This seems like an excellent idea to make jump freighters attractive. Especially if the current "no cargo on ships in maint array" restriction is replaced with something a bit more sensible. (Like "No assembled Industrials or Transports" perhaps. You don't have to live out in 0.0 to realize how problematic launching without any reloads can be.)
TheSard Viziam	Posted - 2007.11.12 19:05:00 - [43] Originally by: CCP Nozh Hi Rells, sorry for the late reply. I did look at it earlier, but didn't have the time to reply at the time. @ Bonuses, they might still be changed to make them more effective vs. other options. The 50% increase in hull was to decrease the possibility of this ship being suicide killed in high sec. You are designing a ship whose primary use is to move things around in low and 0.0 sec. Since jump freighters have significantly lower capacity than tech 1 freighter, are much more expensive and are unable to use their defining feature in high-sec, giving them a bonus that you yourself say is designed to keep them safe in high sec does not make sense. People are going to buy these to jump things - give them a jump related bonus (distance, fuel, etc). Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea." Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion. You sure about that? The distance in training time, expense and abilities between a battleship and a carrier is much more extreme than between any of the other "logical" steps (frigate to cruiser, cruiser to battlecruiser, battlecruiser to battleship). Its a moot point though as you still have not told the players what you want carriers to be.
Psyrus Baine The SMITE Brotherhood	Posted - 2007.11.12 20:34:00 - [44] "Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion." Having to pay 4x the cost for a freighter compared to a carrier is just SILLY TOO. Not everyone is part of a large alliance and can pay the price its going take to get into a jump freighter. I don't understand how you can justify the cost and training of making the Jump freighter a T2 ship. You really need to think about the fun factor in eve before trying to change everything and end up running people off. opinion- An opinion is a belief on what is being observed. It is an assessment, judgment or evaluation of something. An opinion is not a fact, because opinions are either not falsifiable, or the opinion has not been proven or verified. If it later becomes proven or verified, it is no longer an opinion, but a fact.
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.12 21:32:00 - [45] Originally by: Psyrus Baine You really need to think about the fun factor in eve before trying to change everything and end up running people off. QFT.
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:47:00 - [46] Originally by: CCP Nozh Hi Rells, sorry for the late reply. I did look at it earlier, but didn't have the time to reply at the time. @ Bonuses, they might still be changed to make them more effective vs. other options. The 50% increase in hull was to decrease the possibility of this ship being suicide killed in high sec. @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. @ "Time it takes to kill a freighter" Well, you might need logistics ships to support the freighter if that really becomes a problem, the T2 version has more HP on hull, armor and shield, so they should be harder for smaller gangs to "insta-gank" @ "Jump Distance to 6ly." Like I said before, we're still looking at ways to make freighters a more obvious choice over the other options. This might be one of them. @ "Role bonus" I'd rather see carriers and motherships as the main ship transporters. @ "If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea." Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion. its not a natural "Uber" hauler. IT carriers just enough to be usefull IMO. _________________________________
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.12 22:51:00 - [47] Originally by: Tunajuice I don't think many people here disagree that jump freighters need some help to be useful. Hopefully CCP changes it now, and doesn't follow the typical pattern of releasing broken content and then "fixing it" 6 months later :P There are many ways to make t2 freighters better.. but definitely the cost and the functionality compared to a moros and a roq need looked at. STFU. all that will do is make them jack up the prices on Rorqs and Moros, and then nerf the crap out of them to boot. _________________________________
zacuis Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:00:00 - [48] with the dycrptor changes currently on sisi im pretty sure the JF can be made in the 2.5 to 3.5 bill range which is about right if u ask me. that said they do need some love cos atm i dont see the reason to use them over revelations or moros` other than having to make 2 trips rather than 1. at least in the dreads u can cloak and have some limited defence. i`d personally like to see JF`s given a range buff, cos they need to have an advantage over dreads or rorquels or they not gonna see any use.
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.12 23:42:00 - [49] I dispute that figure. With the prices I last saw, I get a cost of at least 7.3bn isk (assuming 100% invention success, though it doesn't actually make that much difference), but possibly as much as 9bn isk depending on what happens to advanced material prices. Why use one of these when 3 Rorquals will haul just as much (with a much better tank) for a fraction of the cost? My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
kasalupin	Posted - 2007.11.13 09:41:00 - [50] Originally by: CCP Nozh Hi Rells, sorry for the late reply. I did look at it earlier, but didn't have the time to reply at the time. @ Bonuses, they might still be changed to make them more effective vs. other options. The 50% increase in hull was to decrease the possibility of this ship being suicide killed in high sec. @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. @ "Time it takes to kill a freighter" Well, you might need logistics ships to support the freighter if that really becomes a problem, the T2 version has more HP on hull, armor and shield, so they should be harder for smaller gangs to "insta-gank" @ "Jump Distance to 6ly." Like I said before, we're still looking at ways to make freighters a more obvious choice over the other options. This might be one of them. @ "Role bonus" I'd rather see carriers and motherships as the main ship transporters. @ "If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea." Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion. Ok, I will just like to add a few pointers there. As stated by most posters their current role bonus are next to useless. Bonus to fuel consumption: i jump a carrier or rorqual because it is safer and faster than using other methods... frankly wether it cost 5M, 10M or 20M per return trip doesn't make any difference. Hull hitpoint: given the cost of the ship and the restricted size of the cargohold, no one will use it in hi sec hauling ever. We just use a cheap t1 freighter to the last high sec system, load it up to the jump freighter and jump.... Having a bonus to jump distance would be a very appealing feature especially if it make it as good or even better than carrier for jumping. In effect you have a regional jump barrier since most 5 ly limited ships have difficulty jumping from one region to a 0.0 one without having to jump once in a low sec region. Also, in some region, you can not fuel some system without making two jumps. It will appeal to me to train the jump freighter skill and have specialised logistic characters. It is when you make jump that you are vulnerable and having to make more jumps will obviously make you even more vulnerable. My main gripe with a jump freighter or freighter in general is the fact that they are with the shuttle the only fully predictable ships. They are slow, easy to target, unable to defend themselves and have crap resistance structure. At least if i use a gimped rorqual or dread to haul, the attacker can expect some fight and the is a bit of a surprise element. My main fear with a t2 freighter is that i jump, get bumped by the pos shield and then i get minced by the attacking fleet. The fact it take 5 minutes or 10 minutes is not a big difference... The t2 version is even worst since most t2 ships have special roles or bonus, the t2 freighter has a jump drive but also a very limited cargohold.... like lot of other jump enabled capital such as rorqual, carrier or dread. The only really t2 ability is the fact that it can jump and use gates like the new t2 BS.... Give them a better chance to survive like by giving them good t2 resist on hull for instance or give them some slot. But currently, they are expensive and not really sexy. And yes carebear want sexy ships too . I don't mind making carriers specialised ships transports and freighter specialised good transporter but make them really shine at this role.

PauZotoh Zhaan Teylas Inc. Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.11.13 14:21:00 - [51] Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. What??? Are you gonna nerf carriers/MS that they cant take ships with cargo? In one of topics dev said carriers are haulers and you wont nerf them. So what did you mean by that????? And if I cant haul stuff with MS, what can I do with MS then? With latest changes this ship is very easy to kill with heavy dictors, and in future you proly will nerf it with this stupid idea with 5 drones/fighters max and delegating stupidy. So can you explain what did you mean by that?
Tyr Zewa Caldari MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.11.13 14:27:00 - [52] Right, before we compare the two ships, i'd like to say, the rorqual really needed a buff, and removing that buff is not the way to go. You have to make JFs more attractive, by giving them an advantage over the rorq when it comes to hauling. Rorqual: + T1 ship, costs less + Has slots for defence + Lower fuel cost = Same jump range - Lower Cargo - Higher skills (but usefull skill reqs, so not that negative) So what can you do to make JFs used over Rorq's? * Lower their fuel cost * Give them some sort of defence in the form of fitting * They are t2 ships, give them proper T2 resistances on shield and armor * Make them have enough effective Armor or Shield hp for logistic ships to help them * Buff their cargo * Make them tier2 and not tech2, thus lowering their build cost * Change their Hull hp and their velocity to something useful. (Jump range, armor/shield hp bonus, resistance bonus, anything that helps them be a 0.0 hauler) You have oh sooooo many options to fiddle with JumpFreighters, so before you ever think about releasing this patch with them in their current form, ask yourself this question: Why would i use this version of the JumpFreighter over a Rorqual? Unless you can come up with honest advantages, you're gonna fail with this shipclass.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2007.11.13 14:42:00 - [53] Originally by: Kaiji Vincente Originally by: Zarch AlDain Have you considered making one of the bonuses a 5% per level increase to jump range? That would give a highly skilled jump freighter a longer range than a carrier - but only with substantial training time investment. This seems like an excellent idea to make jump freighters attractive. Especially if the current "no cargo on ships in maint array" restriction is replaced with something a bit more sensible. (Like "No assembled Industrials or Transports" perhaps. You don't have to live out in 0.0 to realize how problematic launching without any reloads can be.) Sounds like a good idea for a bonus, look for 10%, because 10% bonuses always attract people (and for range bonuses 10% always makes more sense because it really increases efficiency). For the ship restriction, maybe the simple way to restrict haulers from carriers ship maint bays would be to increase their unpackaged size. If a carriers can no more put industrials in ship maint, then it's solved, you won't haul too much with a carrier full of exequrors or imicus or I don't know what ship has the best cargohold/volume ratio other than industrials. The bad part would be if people want to move a rigged industrial to 0.0, if it can't fit in a carrier, how to move it? convoys involve much logistics, the best would be buying a new hauler, new rigs and sending it all via jump freighter. Which is not the best thing, it makes industrials only one way trip ships. No way to get them back from 0.0... -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Say hello to my tiny friends !
PauZotoh Zhaan Teylas Inc. Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.11.13 15:24:00 - [54] You cannot store a ship that contains cargo other than charges inside a Ship Maintenance Bay. Please remove cargo from the ship and try again. Thx CCP. If this hits TQ then I invite everyone to see how Mothership looks like when she do selfdestruct.
zacuis Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:01:00 - [55] if u dispute my figure i guess u need to go check on sisi i estimate invention cost to be around 700 mill per successful bpc run and i reprocessed a jump freighter at perfect refine and added up what was left it came in at 2 bill. as the new dycryptors leave u with + MEs i fail to see where u are getting 8 bill from. if ive messed up the numbers i`d love to know where ive gone wrong
achoura	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:38:00 - [56] Edited by: achoura on 13/11/2007 16:38:44 Out of curiosity why has freighter v been dropped to freighter iv for these ships? Does this change mean these ships are being reduced from tii to tier ii?
jongalt	Posted - 2007.11.13 18:39:00 - [57] think of the reduction in skill requirements as part of the "no child left behind" initiative... -jg.
Ulstan Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.13 18:59:00 - [58] Edited by: Ulstan on 13/11/2007 19:01:27 Quote: @ Bonuses, they might still be changed to make them more effective vs. other options. The 50% increase in hull was to decrease the possibility of this ship being suicide killed in high sec. The anti-suicide-gank bonus might make sense for a t1 freighter that lives in hi sec and travels alone, but not one that jumps around in low sec. Quote: Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion. The more I think about it, the more I see that the jump freighters need to be tier 2 freighters, rather than tech 2 freighters, if you want them to replace carriers/rorquals/whatever as haulers. The freighter is a non combat ship that can't fit modules and can only be used for hauling, so I feel the jump freighters should be less costly than a carrier, mayyyybe the same price, but certainly not multiple times more expensive. You don't want to make the carrier the uber solopwnmachineandhauler. That's fine, completely understandable. But you should provide some alternative to the carrier as a hauler that is equally efficient and cheap, unless the goal is just to nerf 0.0 logistics. If you nerfed the carriers hauling ability, and simultaneously introduced a dedicated jump capable hauler that cost less than the carrier and could jump farther, I don't think too many people would complain, other than dedicated carrier pilots. But if you nerf the carrier's hauling ability and make the only alternative vastly more expensive and with a shorter jump range...well...
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.13 19:04:00 - [59] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 13/11/2007 19:05:01 Originally by: zacuis if u dispute my figure i guess u need to go check on sisi i estimate invention cost to be around 700 mill per successful bpc run and i reprocessed a jump freighter at perfect refine and added up what was left it came in at 2 bill. as the new dycryptors leave u with + MEs i fail to see where u are getting 8 bill from. if ive messed up the numbers i`d love to know where ive gone wrong Did you reprocess the capital T2 components as well and add up the value of the advanced materials at Jita prices? What material multiplier are you assuming for an invented BPC? Base quantities of components are assumed to be similar to those shown in this recent screenshot / 1.1 (since that includes a 10% wastage factor), which match what I got from reprocessing. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Kal Shakai Dominus Imperium	Posted - 2007.11.13 19:26:00 - [60] Personally, I think the direction CCP is taking in regards to logistics is the correct one. I think they need to really put forth their best effort on these jump freighters to make sure they are well received. The jump freighter needs to have no equal in regards to EFFICIENTLY moving parts and materials to deep space. That is the point of any freighter. Moving large quantities, long distances for the lowest cost. This will justify their price tag. I would like to see their bonuses deal directly with range, cargo space, fuel efficiency and survivability. Since cargo space and fuel efficiency have already been addressed lets talk about the other points. All freighters should have their speed bonus changed to agility. The speed bonus is silly as Rells pointed out. The hull hitpoint bonus is also silly. The extra hull HP isn't going to make enough of difference if you get ganked. Just make these things tough as nails to begin with. With no slots or rigs to customize them, a 5 or 10% bonus in any attribute is not really going make enough of a difference in survival. Change this bonus to a range bonus so as to make the jump freighter the efficient hauler it should be.

zacuis Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.11.14 01:22:00 - [61] Edited by: zacuis on 14/11/2007 01:37:34 Edited by: zacuis on 14/11/2007 01:29:41 Edited by: zacuis on 14/11/2007 01:23:45 yes i reprocessed all the cap t2 comps that were there too and priced it off against jita prices. i think i know where people are getting the huge cost for cap t2 comps from ive seen a couple people say there are the same as normal ones x10 but they ar`nt.im assuming 20% chance on invention job using eve meep to calcualte invention cost might be totally but even it is it still isnt gonna mean 9 bills worth of wrong the minerals and complex reactions i was left with came to just over 2 bill isk worth. i was asumming that the bpc would be at least me 0 as the new dycryptors allow for this. unless thats changed? see link below changes to dycryptors was chatting to ccp mindstar on sisi about them today in fd local he said he was watching this thread or at least the devs were. seemed to think that the extra cargo capcity over the dread/rorquel was enought to out weight the total lack of defence that the jump freighter has. im not sure if i agree with him tbh. i still think JF`s need a buff if they are to be seen as the ship of choice when doing logistics. i`d love to see a jump range bonus or even give the thing 5 heavy drones. i`d be happy with that.
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:53:00 - [62] Current cost of a T2 freighter when constructed at cost is 2,593,877,266.65 ISK. Current cost is calculated using eve-central.com market database weighted average. Cost is based on a Rhea with http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/kokob/Rhea_build_reqs_with_T2_capital_comp_bpos.jpg used to calculate the individual costs of the various T2 equipment. Cost is on assumption of BPO is 0 ME. This does NOT include costs associtated with: 1) T2 capital component BPOs 2) Invention costs 3) Profit margins Skill costs: Rorqual: Capital industrial ship: 450,000,000.00 ISK Capital ships: 360,000,000.00 ISK Jump freighter: JF skill book: unknown Freighter: 67,500,000.00 ISK If the cost for a JF book is less then 500 million, this impacts the overall cost of acquiring the ship. However it is also notable that capital ships unlocks the possibility of training for capital combat ships such as dreadnoughts, as well as mining barge 5 gives the ability to fly exhumers. Freighters is a dead end skill. As such both sides in terms of skill cost have their merits and drawbacks.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.11.15 01:08:00 - [63] Originally by: CCP Nozh Hi Rells, sorry for the late reply. I did look at it earlier, but didn't have the time to reply at the time. @ Bonuses, they might still be changed to make them more effective vs. other options. The 50% increase in hull was to decrease the possibility of this ship being suicide killed in high sec. I would advise changing that to armor or shields. Then people could remote tank them with a carrier or logistics ship. Remote hull repairers are very inefficient and useless in actual combat. Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. Certainly if I am hauling ships, I MUST use the carrier as a glorified hauler because I cant put them in the freighter without popping their rigs or insurance. If rigs were removable then I would say "no problem". But almost all advanced ships such as HACs are rigged these days. Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Time it takes to kill a freighter" Well, you might need logistics ships to support the freighter if that really becomes a problem, the T2 version has more HP on hull, armor and shield, so they should be harder for smaller gangs to "insta-gank" See my comment about moving those bonuses to armor and shields. Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Jump Distance to 6ly." Like I said before, we're still looking at ways to make freighters a more obvious choice over the other options. This might be one of them. Definitely it would be better. As another poster said, I would rather have a bonus in jump range per level than a jump fuel bonus. In addition to the 6 ly, a 10% bonus per level would make it preferred after certain skill level. Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Role bonus" I'd rather see carriers and motherships as the main ship transporters. But shouldnt these be combat ships? Not haulers ? Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "If CCP continues on this route, the jump freighter will still be supplanted by the carrier and nerfing the carrier isnt the answer. Nerfing the carriers to make them less appealing to use as haulers in 0.0 will just reduce their ability to participate in combat operations. Making the jump freighter more suitable for hauling is a much better idea." Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion. Well those capitals should be combat ships with lots of power imho. The titan should be a mobile station (anchorable is something I like for titans). Lets leave the pure hauling to the freighter. As it is now it is good to haul unassebled ships and gear but already assembled and insured ships and rigged ships demand that we get out hte carrier yet again for hauling. Originally by: Zarch AlDain Have you considered making one of the bonuses a 5% per level increase to jump range? That would give a highly skilled jump freighter a longer range than a carrier - but only with substantial training time investment. Really good idea man. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Cepha Lopod Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.15 11:53:00 - [64] Edited by: Cepha Lopod on 15/11/2007 11:56:30 Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Time it takes to kill a freighter" Well, you might need logistics ships to support the freighter if that really becomes a problem, the T2 version has more HP on hull, armor and shield, so they should be harder for smaller gangs to "insta-gank" Allright, this is the supid answer that caught my attention. Nozh, have you actually suicideganked a freighter before? These guys have., and this is the scan that made him a target, and This is the loot that came out of the 24 man 0.7 sec gank. If you check on page #4 you'll see a rough rundown on what the loot was worth and how they made roughly 83mil each. If you look at that it's around 250k m^3 which is what a jumpfreighter can carry. I wouldn't even want to imagine what could have come out of the kill had it been a full freighter. The 24 BS's that they killed with is a way overkill for a standard freighter, as someone so nicely points out you only need 16 really. On a personal estimate i'd say 24 might be enough to gank a jumpfreighter with slightly more HP. With the small profit margins they are looking at you could throw in up to 50 pilots and you'd still make over 30m / pilot. Personally, I was hoping for a ship to haul vast quantities of moonminerals from my home in 0.0, but that's just not going to happen. If, and that's a huge if, i do get a jumpfreighter it will only go as far as nearest lowsec and i'll make more trips up and down x jumps to jita and back several times. I'd personally rather spend 2hours to get my ISK rather then go one trip and loose my freighter and moonminerals.
Unrah Gallente Capital Inc. Capital Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.15 17:57:00 - [65] Why does it always have to be an extreme change with forced restrictions which make no sense? (why can`t you have cargo inside a loaded ship when fitted?) My suggestion would be: - Carriers / Moms still can put ship into their Ship Maint. Bay with their cargo included + they can access the cargo inside them, just remove the pilots bonus to the loaded ships like it is when you have them in hangar but not as an active ship. For example, my cargo maxed itty 5 has 38k m¦ when i sit in it, but it has only 6k m¦ when i am in antoher ship and i open the cargohold from the itty. So just make a restriction that you cannot load ships where the cargo inside them is bigger than Maxcargo when pilots leaves it. - Motherships: Carriers recieved a double in ship maint bay on SiSi, why didn`t the moms get a bigger one too? I mean a ship that expensive really should have some advantages. And fielding lets say 10 Bs`s really would be lovly, they they finally would be real Motherships! - Jumpfreighters: Increase their cargo to about 400k m¦, then they will have enough advantage over the rorqual and over Carriers/Moms amd be the prime logistc Ship as you want it to be.
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.15 18:36:00 - [66] Originally by: Cepha Lopod Allright, this is the supid answer that caught my attention. Nozh, have you actually suicideganked a freighter before? These guys have., and this is the scan that made him a target, and This is the loot that came out of the 24 man 0.7 sec gank. If you check on page #4 you'll see a rough rundown on what the loot was worth and how they made roughly 83mil each. If you look at that it's around 250k m^3 which is what a jumpfreighter can carry. I wouldn't even want to imagine what could have come out of the kill had it been a full freighter. The 24 BS's that they killed with is a way overkill for a standard freighter, as someone so nicely points out you only need 16 really. On a personal estimate i'd say 24 might be enough to gank a jumpfreighter with slightly more HP. With the small profit margins they are looking at you could throw in up to 50 pilots and you'd still make over 30m / pilot. Personally, I was hoping for a ship to haul vast quantities of moonminerals from my home in 0.0, but that's just not going to happen. If, and that's a huge if, i do get a jumpfreighter it will only go as far as nearest lowsec and i'll make more trips up and down x jumps to jita and back several times. I'd personally rather spend 2hours to get my ISK rather then go one trip and loose my freighter and moonminerals. Well then the answer is fairly simple then. Heavy escort; 3 scouts and 15 battleships, the scouts to identify potential suicide gankers and the escort locks onto all of them while the freighter warps away. Course it''s a blobbing tactic but still...
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.15 20:05:00 - [67] Originally by: Unrah Why does it always have to be an extreme change with forced restrictions which make no sense? (why can`t you have cargo inside a loaded ship when fitted?) My suggestion would be: - Carriers / Moms still can put ship into their Ship Maint. Bay with their cargo included + they can access the cargo inside them, just remove the pilots bonus to the loaded ships like it is when you have them in hangar but not as an active ship. For example, my cargo maxed itty 5 has 38k m¦ when i sit in it, but it has only 6k m¦ when i am in antoher ship and i open the cargohold from the itty. So just make a restriction that you cannot load ships where the cargo inside them is bigger than Maxcargo when pilots leaves it. - Motherships: Carriers recieved a double in ship maint bay on SiSi, why didn`t the moms get a bigger one too? I mean a ship that expensive really should have some advantages. And fielding lets say 10 Bs`s really would be lovly, they they finally would be real Motherships! - Jumpfreighters: Increase their cargo to about 400k m¦, then they will have enough advantage over the rorqual and over Carriers/Moms amd be the prime logistc Ship as you want it to be. Someone give this man a medal! Brilliant!
Matalino Gallente Datacore Harvesting	Posted - 2007.11.15 20:08:00 - [68] Edited by: Matalino on 15/11/2007 20:17:12 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Additionally, I don't think jump freighters should be able to rep themselves, but 15% to hull resistance/level seems like a much better and more logical bonus than 10% HP/level. I agree that jump freighters should get a bonus to hull resists not hull HP. However 15% resistance per level is over the top unless the base HP is also reduced. That is equiv to a 150% bonus to Hull HP at level 4 and a 300% bonus to Hull HP with level 5. I think that a 10% resistance per level is quite reasonable. This would be equiv to a 67% bonus to Hull HP at level 4 and a 100% bonus to Hull HP at level 5. But if you (the Dev's) feel that is too much, atleast change it to a 7.5% hull resistance per level. This would be equiv to a Hull HP bonus of 42% at level 4 and 60% Hull HP at level 5. The reason that I feel that it is important to change to a resistance bonus is because it would actually make logistics support important in the protection of a freighter. As it is, the logistics support is almost irrelevant. A gank squad will simply go directly for the freighter, and there is little hope that the logistics support can keep up. However, if you give Jump Frieghters a 10% hull reistance per level. The gank squad would be forced to take out the logistics support first, unless they can do alot more than 1.7x / 2.0x the DPS that the logistics can rep. Give the Jump Freighers the 15% resists per level that Vicious Phoenix, along with a 60% reduction in base HP compared to T1, and you will gaurentee that the support must be killed before the freighter while only increasing the effective HP of the freighters by 60% with maxed skills. With level 4 skills they would have the same effective HP as the T1 version. ************************** Datacore Harvesting IPO
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.11.16 09:16:00 - [69] Originally by: Unrah Why does it always have to be an extreme change with forced restrictions which make no sense? (why can`t you have cargo inside a loaded ship when fitted?) My suggestion would be: - Carriers / Moms still can put ship into their Ship Maint. Bay with their cargo included + they can access the cargo inside them, just remove the pilots bonus to the loaded ships like it is when you have them in hangar but not as an active ship. For example, my cargo maxed itty 5 has 38k m¦ when i sit in it, but it has only 6k m¦ when i am in antoher ship and i open the cargohold from the itty. So just make a restriction that you cannot load ships where the cargo inside them is bigger than Maxcargo when pilots leaves it. - Motherships: Carriers recieved a double in ship maint bay on SiSi, why didn`t the moms get a bigger one too? I mean a ship that expensive really should have some advantages. And fielding lets say 10 Bs`s really would be lovly, they they finally would be real Motherships! - Jumpfreighters: Increase their cargo to about 400k m¦, then they will have enough advantage over the rorqual and over Carriers/Moms amd be the prime logistc Ship as you want it to be. U wrote, that the MS should be able to hold 10 BS, because than at least would be a real mothership. Donno if u realised, but "real" motherships can't hold any BS..... They are to deploy airplanes(fighters)
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.16 09:30:00 - [70] Originally by: Tadehiro Well then the answer is fairly simple then. Heavy escort; 3 scouts and 15 battleships, the scouts to identify potential suicide gankers and the escort locks onto all of them while the freighter warps away. Course it''s a blobbing tactic but still... Your tanking ability does not enter into equation when you are suicide ganked. It all happens in less than 20 seconds. Your logistic guys would barely be able to lock the freighter and get off one cykle negating perhaps 1 or 2 battleships from 'gank' side but it is not enough to save it if attackers are any good. Scouts are ofc good tackiks as is not carring enough stuff to be worth suicide ganked is also.

Unrah Gallente Capital Inc. Capital Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.16 10:15:00 - [71] Edited by: Unrah on 16/11/2007 10:16:44 Originally by: Damned Force U wrote, that the MS should be able to hold 10 BS, because than at least would be a real mothership. Donno if u realised, but "real" motherships can't hold any BS..... They are to deploy airplanes(fighters) Sorry, but what kind of comparison is that? In my opinion, the designed role of a mothership was the ability to load a small fleet (BS`s included), install the pilots jump clones, load the Corp hangar of the ship with necessary equipment and ammo, and act as some kind of front line base. Motherships jump to target enemy space, Pilots then jumpclone to it, get into their ships and start spreading havoc. And with the reduced fitted size of bs`s (on SiSi), a mom will be able to hold 2 or 3 Bs`s in their ship maint bay (don`t know exact actual number, but it is definitly below 5) but in my opinion thats far too few. Noone will haggle around with that kind of small fleet deployment.
Hulagu Beki	Posted - 2007.11.16 10:24:00 - [72] The jump frieghter operates in 0.0 and needs the same kind of fitting options as other deep space capitals. Its not good enough to compare an Empire freighter with the needs of 0.0. and to just fiddle with bonuses and give it the ability to jump. The ship needs to be better thought out than that. I don't see the Rorqual coming without the ability to tank,and even with this ship players are already talking about keeping it in a pos bubble. At least with a Rorqual,you know where you will be mining,and have the luxury of being in home space and planning some kind of defense. The jump frieghters more than likely will be traversing through Hostile/Neutral territory with the bonuses the way they are now,they will be called primary and will be killed quickly,players do it for Motherships they can easily do it for these paper bags. They need.1 high slot,armor or shield tank and 2 rig slots. Bring down the price of constructing them,and people will happily use them and stop crying on the forums. Tweaking a T1 ship just doesn't cut it.
Trox Aeze Kaaii-Net Research Labs	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:25:00 - [73] Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. Still no incentive to pick a defenceless jump freighter over a Dreadnaught or Rorqual. As a T2 ship, it needs fittings!
Ottman	Posted - 2007.11.16 13:30:00 - [74] sorry to say that, implent jump freighter as t2 ship is not helpful, if jump freighter is a t2 ship, what about the rorqual ? it based on carrier chassis, but is it a t2 ship ? definetly no, and the jump freighter should be a t1 ship too just basing on freighter chassis, but still be a t1 ship, better implent jump freighter as own ship class but please as t1 ship. that would make the cost/price relation much better and much more ppl can afford a jump freighter. MfG ottman
Montaire Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.16 14:32:00 - [75] Originally by: Trox Aeze Still no incentive to pick a defenceless jump freighter over a Dreadnaught or Rorqual. As a T2 ship, it needs fittings! Quite an incentive, actually. Because you will either be hauling with a T2 Freighter, or you'll be hauling with a T1 Freighter. Either way, for bulk hauling you will use a Freighter or Industrial ship, not a combat one. You simply dont understand. Carries will no longer be able to haul. The developers are not interested in changing their minds in this regard, you might as well get used to it.
Ottman	Posted - 2007.11.16 14:45:00 - [76] i dont talk about carriers, i know that they get nerfed and thats okay, but jump freighter comes as t2 freighter and thats quite bad for the cost/usage relation. and rorqual is based upon carrier chassis and is not a t2 ship, there is a possibility to make jump freighter a t1 capital ship like rorqual is too, basing on freighter chassis of course. that would reduce the immense cost that the current design of jump freighter inflict and that is something no one with even some working brain cells can deny. MfG ottman
Counterparty	Posted - 2007.11.16 15:33:00 - [77] Originally by: Ottman rorqual is based upon carrier chassis Is that so.. Which carrier hull would that be?
Ottman	Posted - 2007.11.16 16:44:00 - [78] ah right, its not exactly a carrier chassis, but looks not complete unfamiliar when i look at thanatos, but its an own design, sorry ^^ MfG ottman
Jasai Kameron Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.16 19:48:00 - [79] Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 16/11/2007 19:48:24 Originally by: CCP Nozh Hi Rells, sorry for the late reply. I did look at it earlier, but didn't have the time to reply at the time. Just wanted to thank Nozh for taking the time to reply to this thread and give reasons for his decisions in a logical, persuasive manner. A lot of developers don't seem to be doing that.
Reshina Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.11 08:01:00 - [80] The problem with jump freighters is that their bonuses are still messed up. Also since all of their HP is in structure, they cant fit resist and you cant easily remote structure tank, it would be a bad idea to use them in any sort of dangerous situation.

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:15:00 - [81] As someone who's looking at building jumpfreighters (pimp. Contact Nefteus for a quote) they're looking at clocking in at the 10-12billion mark. The jump freighters bonus is basically worthless. Yeah, sure, using a bit less fuel is vaguely nice. But really? 12billion ship. Jumpfuel usage is the LEAST of your concerns. These ships are COMPLETELY defenseless. They will be sitting in space for a long time, waiting for cap recharge to rejump. They jump as far as a dread, and as has been pointed out, have about ... 5-6x the cargo space of a dread? But are otherwise completely useless, where the dread is useful for other reasons. sniff. sniff. Smell that? Smells like PRENERF to me. I mostly agree. These ships just aren't all that good. Slightly easier to assemble than a mothership (you can use a station) but a similar pricetag (ok, so it's not quite the same, but it's the same sort of 'really insane amounts of money'' that if you can afford one, you can afford the other). For a ship that's basically a big, fat, vulnerable target, that needs an escort. I really don't think jumpfreighters would be an issue with: 6LY base range. Jump Freighters skill giving bonuses from: Cap recharge. Agility. Jumprange. Jumpfuel. Cargo capacity. Base freighters skills, I'll not argue (although, they don't need freighters 5 any more, do they? Do you get the 'full' cargo bonus without?) - speed _can_ be useful, when afk hauling with one around empire (and lets face it, you do). I'd love to see these ships have 'good' resists too. Maybe the other bonuses for jumpfreighters should be resistances, so you can carrier escort/remote rep them? We will see a move away from carrier jumphauling, because of the nerf, but it won't be to jumpfreighters. Not when you can get jumphauling dread for significantly less capital outlay, which is faster on cap recharging, can fit 'some' defense (even if it is just a cloak), can fit cap recharges (ok, so if you want to use your lows, that does cost cargo space). Shrug. You'll see a few, but not so many I think. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Sheila Chandra	Posted - 2007.12.11 11:38:00 - [82] If i understood it right (correct me please if not ^^), Jump Freigthers are beside Titans now the second ship class that can jump itself or ? Why not focus the role of them at this ability of them. I think if they would get the ability to enter a system without being seen on the overview for everyone, preferable on a self decided savespot it should be great to transport stuff with them through 0.0 without the need for a whole fleet. in my eyes an ideal bonus for them would be something that reduces the time that needs to be waitet to jump again, at best balanced against the time needed for a scanning ship to find the Jump Freigther when he enters the system. So for example on lower skill someone seeing him enter, flying to POS, changing ship and starting scanprobe should have a small timewindow to catch the freigther, going to lvl4 where he needs to be very fast doing it, and on lvl5 needs to be start the scanprobe within 30sec after the Freigther enters the system... At least thats how i saw the role of a Jumpfreigther that nearly has costs like a MS...
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:56:00 - [83] Originally by: Sheila Chandra If i understood it right (correct me please if not ^^), Jump Freigthers are beside Titans now the second ship class that can jump itself or ? Erm. No. Carriers, dreadnoughts, rorquals, motherships, titans and jumpfreighters all have jumpdrives. The jumpfreighter came about because 'everyone' was using carriers to bulk haul Not going to respond to the rest of your post, as unless I misread it, it's based on your original assumption. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:04:00 - [84] As was pointed out, perhaps the biggest screwup was the putting of all their HP into Hull with 0 resists, no ability to fit a damage control and remote structure tanking just isnt practical when under fire. I can see a situation where someone warps in 25 BS and alphastrikes the thing. Im having to change my alt to train for rorqual. With expanders it gets only half the cargo of the jump freighter but it actually can defend itself. -- Rells Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Braaage eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.11 18:22:00 - [85] Originally by: Tadehiro Current cost of a T2 freighter when constructed at cost is 2,593,877,266.65 ISK. Current cost is calculated using eve-central.com market database weighted average. Cost is based on a Rhea with http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/kokob/Rhea_build_reqs_with_T2_capital_comp_bpos.jpg used to calculate the individual costs of the various T2 equipment. Cost is on assumption of BPO is 0 ME. This does NOT include costs associtated with: 1) T2 capital component BPOs 2) Invention costs 3) Profit margins Skill costs: Rorqual: Capital industrial ship: 450,000,000.00 ISK Capital ships: 360,000,000.00 ISK Jump freighter: JF skill book: unknown Freighter: 67,500,000.00 ISK If the cost for a JF book is less then 500 million, this impacts the overall cost of acquiring the ship. However it is also notable that capital ships unlocks the possibility of training for capital combat ships such as dreadnoughts, as well as mining barge 5 gives the ability to fly exhumers. Freighters is a dead end skill. As such both sides in terms of skill cost have their merits and drawbacks. That's so far out it's a joke, please send me all your calculations and prove me wrong. Jump freighters are going to be 4.5B upwards. -- eve-guides.com Includes all about POSs, outposts, tech II production, item database and much much more.
Eka Maladay	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:47:00 - [86] There are serveral advantage of jump freighter that nobody seem to care: 1) They can use normal jump gate This means they are almost immune to attack when they are going from lowsec/0.0 into highsec. This is a huge advantage for transporting out of 0.0/lowsec no other ship have ever got before. 2) They are the only capital ship that can jump out of high sec No other capital ship can go directly from high sec to 0.0 without any risk! Seriously, are you telling me the windows of 30 seconds when it dock in 0.0 is a huge risk? If that is true. I like to question you judgement. As far as I know, 25 BS doesn't suddenly appear, lock, and alpha a Jump freighter while it is docking, out of no where! If you have 25 hostiles in system, why the hell are you jumping a jump freighter into that system? Summary, they can get in and out of empire with literally no risk! The velocity bonus, and hit point bonus, is arguably not needed, but in all honesty, they are already very over powered. They do not need more.
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.12.12 00:37:00 - [87] Originally by: Eka Maladay There are serveral advantage of jump freighter that nobody seem to care: 1) They can use normal jump gate This means they are almost immune to attack when they are going from lowsec/0.0 into highsec. This is a huge advantage for transporting out of 0.0/lowsec no other ship have ever got before. 2) They are the only capital ship that can jump out of high sec No other capital ship can go directly from high sec to 0.0 without any risk! Seriously, are you telling me the windows of 30 seconds when it dock in 0.0 is a huge risk? If that is true. I like to question you judgement. As far as I know, 25 BS doesn't suddenly appear, lock, and alpha a Jump freighter while it is docking, out of no where! If you have 25 hostiles in system, why the hell are you jumping a jump freighter into that system? Summary, they can get in and out of empire with literally no risk! The velocity bonus, and hit point bonus, is arguably not needed, but in all honesty, they are already very over powered. They do not need more. And if I were to put a 1 bil isk bounty on the first jump freighter to be killed in high/low sec (given thier 10 billion isk price tag, not unreasonable), would you see ANY of these ships anywhere NEAR high sec (remember, at best it has 2x the hull hitpoints... so it only takes 20 battleships to take one down before concord comes a knocking)
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.12 03:41:00 - [88] Originally by: Eka Maladay There are serveral advantage of jump freighter that nobody seem to care: 1) They can use normal jump gate This means they are almost immune to attack when they are going from lowsec/0.0 into highsec. This is a huge advantage for transporting out of 0.0/lowsec no other ship have ever got before. 2) They are the only capital ship that can jump out of high sec No other capital ship can go directly from high sec to 0.0 without any risk! Seriously, are you telling me the windows of 30 seconds when it dock in 0.0 is a huge risk? If that is true. I like to question you judgement. As far as I know, 25 BS doesn't suddenly appear, lock, and alpha a Jump freighter while it is docking, out of no where! If you have 25 hostiles in system, why the hell are you jumping a jump freighter into that system? Summary, they can get in and out of empire with literally no risk! The velocity bonus, and hit point bonus, is arguably not needed, but in all honesty, they are already very over powered. They do not need more. Immune to attack on what planet? Did you ever hear of a session change timer? YOu have any idea how easy it is to chew through 300k UNTANKED hull in 30 sec? -- Rells Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Eka Maladay	Posted - 2007.12.12 05:47:00 - [89] Originally by: Rells Immune to attack on what planet? Did you ever hear of a session change timer? YOu have any idea how easy it is to chew through 300k UNTANKED hull in 30 sec? -- Rells And you need a reality check. I lived in 0.0 for years now, except under attack, you never have 20 BS sitting there waiting to pound on you. Let me ask you this, why the hell are you jumping a jump freighter into a middle of a fight? Oh, right. "My freighter will get killed when I jump it into a place with 20 enemies surrounding it!" well guess what? Don't #$&@ jump it into the middle of a fight! It is a hauler, it isn't mean to be combat ship of any kind. Cyno doesn't have a forewarning to tell everyone to come over 5 minutes ahead of time. Session change is at best 30 seconds but 15 of those are uncatchable anyway EX. while a carrier just cyno in beside a station and dock, you DO NOT have a chance to lock it at all. If you don't take my word, try actually own one and test it out then get back to me and see if you can actually lock it. Even if the Jump freighter have a special 30 seconds timer before it can dock, you are still pretty much completely safe, just wait till local is clear before jumping it in. If you need supplies -right this second- and not one minute later, you have bigger problem in your supply system then worrying about the 30 seconds of window for a fleet of BS to gank it.
Internet Knight The Knighthawks FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.12 06:45:00 - [90] Edited by: Internet Knight on 12/12/2007 06:49:46 Eka Maladay, you are right. It can jump OUT of high sec into 0.0 pretty safely. What about getting back into high sec? You can't use a cynosural field generator in high sec, and you can't get sovereignty in low sec to deploy a cynosural generator array at your lowsec POS where your will be jumping the freighter into. With that in mind, it wouldn't be hard AT ALL for someone to take the following thought path: Notice that there's a jump freighter making regular jumps in a lowsec system Place a fleet next door on the gate. Have one person in system watching for cyno at the starbase Cyno goes up, watch local for the jump freighter pilot Jump freighter pilot enters local, fleet jumps in and warps to cyno Gank. Chances are that 30 battleships will come out of warp at a cyno long before the freighter has finished any of the following: Aligning for warp Recharging to jump again Entering the starbase forcefield And 30 battleships aren't going to be too scared of a starbase -- warp in, gank, and warp back out. Even if you do take losses from the guns, you just killed something about as expensive as a mothership. Even if you aren't able to grab the loot, you're very much able to gloat about the kill. And if you know you're not going to be able to grab the loot, then you kill the wreck so the freighter pilot can't salvage whatever's left of it. --- How to resolve Singularity character syncing Originally by: EadTaes Frege is dead.

Ort Lofthus Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.12.12 07:41:00 - [91] For 3 bil, I could see these guys being worth it, if only marginally. For 10 bil, ain't no way I'd put money into it. To be worth 10 bil, it would need freighter capacity or more. Tanking isn't so much of an issue, I honestly think that if you don't escort it, you deserve to lose it. And as said before, 25 BS do not materialize out of nowhere. They are either in system or next door, and your escorts should be able to find em before hand. Worst case scenario you use rorquals, carriers, and standard haulers to move the materials to a secure location, then use the jump freighter to move the stuff around secured space.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.12 07:47:00 - [92] I think the dev has failed to see that 3 carriers can still do better than a jump freighter. thus why use the jump frieghter. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.12 09:04:00 - [93] Originally by: Ort Lofthus For 3 bil, I could see these guys being worth it, if only marginally. For 10 bil, ain't no way I'd put money into it. To be worth 10 bil, it would need freighter capacity or more. Tanking isn't so much of an issue, I honestly think that if you don't escort it, you deserve to lose it. And as said before, 25 BS do not materialize out of nowhere. They are either in system or next door, and your escorts should be able to find em before hand. Worst case scenario you use rorquals, carriers, and standard haulers to move the materials to a secure location, then use the jump freighter to move the stuff around secured space. You thinking highsec or lowsec here? Escorts, in highsec are annoying and dull. Actually, they're pretty annoying or dull in lowsec or 0.0 too, but at least there you can pre-emptively engage. Or have you actually tried manually flying a freighter (e.g. not on autopilot) from Agil to Jita? It's painfully slow, and boring. If you're talking about 'on jumpdrive' in a general sense, I wouldn't mind the idea that you 'had' to bring a carrier buddy or two along. Actually, I probably would anyway, just to avoid a single frigate killing it or something. But then your escort starts needing to be capitals to follow you on jumpdrive, and actually, those escort ops are pretty dull too. shrug. I'd be inclined to agree. 3bn they're worth it, 10bn they're not. I have more use for 5-10 dreads/carriers than a single JF, and actually, they can haul more too. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Eka Maladay	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:15:00 - [94] Originally by: Internet Knight Edited by: Internet Knight on 12/12/2007 06:49:46 Eka Maladay, you are right. It can jump OUT of high sec into 0.0 pretty safely. What about getting back into high sec? You can't use a cynosural field generator in high sec, and you can't get sovereignty in low sec to deploy a cynosural generator array at your lowsec POS where your will be jumping the freighter into. Not true. You can simply cyno beside an NPC station at low sec, then wait till the place seme clear, undock, and warps to the gate and just jump. I know, sure, they can 'gate camp you' on the empire side of the gate. But seriously, gate with gate guns in empire kills BS nearly instantly. it will takes 40 - 50 BS to alpha you down. If someone have the man power to have 30 people sitting around waiting for the possibility that you might shows up with a jump freighter. I think you also have more problem to worry about. Is it hard to be done? No. But does the oppurtunity of it happening very likely? Hell no. You have better luck trying to gank down Entity's Fed issue mega.
Manfred Rickenbocker	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:25:00 - [95] Edited by: Manfred Rickenbocker on 12/12/2007 19:26:40 Im very inclined to agree that ganking one of these jump freighters will be rather difficult. Any suicide gank in high-sec would require more ships than the value of both a) the freighter and b) the cargo. The only excuse to do that would be for the kill mail. The whole other main issue would be the fact that no sane person would EVER undock or leave a safe spot (like a POS) with hostiles in local. Never. It would take some extreme carelessness or stupidity to get caught. And since it is a jump freighter, it has no reason to be using gates in low-sec or 0.0. The main issue with the jump freighter is utility. The cost/benefits rewards vs. a carrier or rorqual are not enough. ------------------------ Exploration: A discipline for those who have a lot of time, don't want to put in a lot of effort, and have a high tolerance for mental anguish.
Agif Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:40:00 - [96] getting rorqs myself just sold all my carriers and t2 freighters can get bent over this whole nerf issue. -------------------
Terraisa Nichols Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:34:00 - [97] I'd rather see carriers and motherships as the main ship transporters. So what happened to this "fitting for role" thing you said we would be able to do with carriers post Trinity? I expected more than one role really. Currently combat pilots regard the carrier is the next "logical" step from a BS, allowing it to be a natural uber hauler as well is just silly, in our opinion. The fact that the Devs think of the carrier as an uber hauler is just silly in our opinion. Carriers were never uber haulers, they were just the only haulers we had that could take some of the grind out of fueling POSs. We also think it is silly that you chose to take away their function as haulers without giving the alternatives a chance to mature. As for JFs, they need something to make them more resilient or they need to be cheaper. Their usefulness does not match the investment at risk.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:27:00 - [98] All you people talking about how freighters are so easilly ganked in highsec really have no clue at all. You've never been on a proper freighter op in your life. I have, lots of times. Guess what? With a single rapier you are uncatchable. You warp as fast as the rapier with 3 sensor boosters can lock you and put 2 webs on you. You warp INSTANTLY, or at least as fast as a shuttle. You dont need some ridiculous amount of logistics ships, a single rapier to web you/scout is sufficient to moving through highsec.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:40:00 - [99] I couldnt care less about using it in high sec or lowsec. Im talking about using it in real 0.0 supply situation. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:08:00 - [100] Originally by: Gamesguy All you people talking about how freighters are so easilly ganked in highsec really have no clue at all. You've never been on a proper freighter op in your life. I have, lots of times. Guess what? With a single rapier you are uncatchable. You warp as fast as the rapier with 3 sensor boosters can lock you and put 2 webs on you. You warp INSTANTLY, or at least as fast as a shuttle. You dont need some ridiculous amount of logistics ships, a single rapier to web you/scout is sufficient to moving through highsec. Pretty sure they changed that mechanic: last two freighter ops I've been on the FCs specifically ordered us NOT to web the freighter, and it was two seperate FCs on those ops.

Eka Maladay	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:09:00 - [101] Originally by: Rells I couldnt care less about using it in high sec or lowsec. Im talking about using it in real 0.0 supply situation. I'm not sure you even understand tht a jump freigther is for. Jump freighter can't even fuel a POS. It is strictly used for moving stuff from one station to another station. For fueling POS or giving supply to dread/carrier/front line. Use a hauler.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:20:00 - [102] Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/12/2007 00:20:38 Originally by: Tadehiro Originally by: Gamesguy All you people talking about how freighters are so easilly ganked in highsec really have no clue at all. You've never been on a proper freighter op in your life. I have, lots of times. Guess what? With a single rapier you are uncatchable. You warp as fast as the rapier with 3 sensor boosters can lock you and put 2 webs on you. You warp INSTANTLY, or at least as fast as a shuttle. You dont need some ridiculous amount of logistics ships, a single rapier to web you/scout is sufficient to moving through highsec. Pretty sure they changed that mechanic: last two freighter ops I've been on the FCs specifically ordered us NOT to web the freighter, and it was two seperate FCs on those ops. When was this? My last ft op was about 3 weeks ago and webs worked fine.
Internet Knight The Knighthawks FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:54:00 - [103] Edited by: Internet Knight on 13/12/2007 13:55:06 Originally by: Eka Maladay Originally by: Internet Knight Edited by: Internet Knight on 12/12/2007 06:49:46 Eka Maladay, you are right. It can jump OUT of high sec into 0.0 pretty safely. What about getting back into high sec? You can't use a cynosural field generator in high sec, and you can't get sovereignty in low sec to deploy a cynosural generator array at your lowsec POS where your will be jumping the freighter into. Not true. You can simply cyno beside an NPC station at low sec, then wait till the place seme clear, undock, and warps to the gate and just jump. I know, sure, they can 'gate camp you' on the empire side of the gate. But seriously, gate with gate guns in empire kills BS nearly instantly. it will takes 40 - 50 BS to alpha you down. If someone have the man power to have 30 people sitting around waiting for the possibility that you might shows up with a jump freighter. I think you also have more problem to worry about. Is it hard to be done? No. But does the oppurtunity of it happening very likely? Hell no. You have better luck trying to gank down Entity's Fed issue mega. I have seen waaaay more capitals get ganked by cynoing in next to a station, ending up too far to insta-dock, and having some nanoship show up and bump them away so they couldn't dock or warp while a fleet shows up and ganks than I have seen the same done at a POS. I would never ever cyno in next to a station in lowsec with neutrals or reds in local, personally. Originally by: Tadehiro Originally by: Gamesguy All you people talking about how freighters are so easilly ganked in highsec really have no clue at all. You've never been on a proper freighter op in your life. I have, lots of times. Guess what? With a single rapier you are uncatchable. You warp as fast as the rapier with 3 sensor boosters can lock you and put 2 webs on you. You warp INSTANTLY, or at least as fast as a shuttle. You dont need some ridiculous amount of logistics ships, a single rapier to web you/scout is sufficient to moving through highsec. Pretty sure they changed that mechanic: last two freighter ops I've been on the FCs specifically ordered us NOT to web the freighter, and it was two seperate FCs on those ops. No. Webbing freighters still works, but it gives both the webber and the webbee (ie, the freighter) an aggression timer. If you run into trouble and need to get the freighter safe, the absolute best thing to do is to log off without an aggression timer. If you've got an aggression timer, you can pretty much kiss your freighter goodbye. Yes, it's abusing game mechanics. But until it's fixed, you can bet that everyone with any intelligence will do it. --- How to resolve Singularity character syncing Originally by: EadTaes Frege is dead.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:27:00 - [104] The problem in the thread is that yet again more empire carebears are chiming in on things they have no idea about. If you do'nt think it is hard to kill a freighter on a station in 0.0, you need to actually go to 0.0 once. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Captain Havoc Caldari Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:50:00 - [105] Heh i won't ever be buying a jump freighter and i have 3 accounts that could all use them, a Rorqual rigged with T1 cargo rigs and 3 expander II's holds 126k in it's cargo hold alone and another 10k in the CHA, so 136k total, and they can cloak, tank, has a drone damage bonus, nice big drone bay, can fit cap mods to speed up jumping, can fit smarties, remote reps, full med slot tank if you want and not sacrifice any cargo capacity and best of all - even rigged with T2 cargo rigs cost less than a jump freighter :P Dark Centuri Inc. POS Director FIX POS Logistics Coordinator
Eka Maladay	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:46:00 - [106] Originally by: Rells The problem in the thread is that yet again more empire carebears are chiming in on things they have no idea about. If you do'nt think it is hard to kill a freighter on a station in 0.0, you need to actually go to 0.0 once. Firstly, before you access go search my name in google first. Not only do I PVP, I also do excessive amount of stuff that involves specifically the carrier and freighter and. I have access to 3 different type of captial ships and I have been involved in 0.0 since year ago. Attack my theory, don't attack me. Your scenrio: If you cyno in a capital WHILE there are hostile around, they have about 20 -30 seconds to bump you out of dock range if they are properly equiped, and therefore, stand a chance to kill you. :is at best picking bone out of an egg. The cyno was screw up to begin with, you don't cyno a ship that can't defend itself while there are hostile in place. I already said that before and I'm not going to repeat it again. If anything I think you are the carebear trying to get a ship that have nearly no chance of getting killed. The jump freighter can do things that no other ship can do. If you screw up by jumping one in while other are a lot of hostiles around ready to bump it out, it is really your fault. Don't blame the freighter
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:32:00 - [107] Edited by: Rells on 24/12/2007 20:34:29 Bump in the hope the devs do something useful for a change rather than let zulupark nerf something else that he doesn't understand. Originally by: Eka Maladay If anything, I think you are the carebear trying to get a ship that have nearly no chance of getting killed. The jump freighter can already do things that no other ship can do, not only does it handle a role that we didn't really have any alternative beside the carrier, it does additional stuff as well. Perhaps it is expensive, but that doesn't make it useless. I dont think there are many in the game that would call me a carebear. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Eka Maladay Gallente The Elliance Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.24 22:54:00 - [108] Originally by: Rells I dont think there are many in the game that would call me a carebear. Then why the hell do you want to make a ship nearly invulnerable? It is hard enough to kill things already. ----------------------------------------------- I tank, therefore I am.
Phantra The Protectorate Corporation Intergalactic Brotherhood	Posted - 2007.12.25 00:50:00 - [109] My biggest complaint is the cost. CCP claimed in a recent Dev Blog they intend the jump freighters to cost ~2 billion to make. People on the forums are saying they cost over 5 billion to make. Thats just a stupid expensive ship that only the rich can afford. Problem is they nerfed carriers hauling ability for everyone not just the rich. Without a carrier or a JF I am having difficulty doing the hauling I need to do to afford the jump freighters that I need to be able to make the money to buy one. I really think this ship is a failure from the implementation standpoint.
Eka Maladay Gallente The Elliance Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.25 05:34:00 - [110] Originally by: Phantra My biggest complaint is the cost. CCP claimed in a recent Dev Blog they intend the jump freighters to cost ~2 billion to make. People on the forums are saying they cost over 5 billion to make. Thats just a stupid expensive ship that only the rich can afford. Problem is they nerfed carriers hauling ability for everyone not just the rich. Without a carrier or a JF I am having difficulty doing the hauling I need to do to afford the jump freighters that I need to be able to make the money to buy one. I really think this ship is a failure from the implementation standpoint. I would agree the cost is a little too high, but they already said they will make it easier in the next 'boost' patch upcoming. ----------------------------------------------- I tank, therefore I am.

Phantra The Protectorate Corporation Intergalactic Brotherhood	Posted - 2007.12.26 01:28:00 - [111] I sure didn't know that Eka, so thanks for makin' my night cheery!! <G>
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.26 02:02:00 - [112] Edited by: Synapse Archae on 26/12/2007 02:04:05 Originally by: Paxx Aerion Originally by: CCP Nozh @ "Since carriers can tank, fight and jump further than the freighter, why would I use a floating target that cant defend itself." Cause you can't haul effectively in a carrier anymore. In otherwords YOU WILL USE THIS SHIP BECAUSE WE WILL FORCE YOU TO USE IT! This. - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2007.12.26 02:11:00 - [113] Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 26/12/2007 02:12:46 Why in gods name are you guys even discussing stats? I see no point in that at all. Just use a little bit of common sense.. Was EVE made better by allowing large amounts of easy logistics to happen? What about when it was made nearly fool-proof? Not that I'm offering an opinion on any of the following but easy logistics allowed POS spam wars to occur, alliances to take more space than they could use, groups to move in and out of an area on a whim, valuable assets to pass through any amount of military force. I know its the standard for many people now, and I hate to bring up old comparisons - but why do we have Industrial ships if the only thing you'll ever see at gates are combat ships? People say attacking an enemy behind the lines with guerrilla warfare should be possible, but they fail to realize there is no target to attack. Neither the means by which alliances harvest resources, nor the ways they transport them are accessible to gank squads. I used to see, disrupt and kill the industrial lifeblood of alliances in 0.0 by pirating their bistot-laden indies but that hasn't been the case in 0.0 for years. The Jump Freighter was a stupid concession made to those people who couldn't live without an easy and safe way of moving large amounts of junk around. Only, to prevent everyone from having them, CCP used the standard practice of making the ship worthless for everything but one task, making it expensive beyond belief, and making it annoying to build. To any 0.0 alliance, these ships will have to be procured eventually, because if the enemy has one you can't afford not to. If the enemy can play faster and do logistics easier, you must try to match them. Basically, all it does is make people compete over something they could do before, and in a much harder setting. Removing the ability totally would of annoyed people less and been better for the game overall. So how long do you think it will be before we see blobs of these ships moving stuff around just like we did with every other capital ship in EVE? I am calling it now, 7 months. _______________________________ Complex Fullerene Shards; why God? :\|
Riley Craven Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.26 02:54:00 - [114] Edited by: Riley Craven on 26/12/2007 02:54:18 Originally by: DigitalCommunist Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 26/12/2007 02:12:46 Why in gods name are you guys even discussing stats? I see no point in that at all. Just use a little bit of common sense.. Was EVE made better by allowing large amounts of easy logistics to happen? What about when it was made nearly fool-proof? Not that I'm offering an opinion on any of the following but easy logistics allowed POS spam wars to occur, alliances to take more space than they could use, groups to move in and out of an area on a whim, valuable assets to pass through any amount of military force. DC normally I respect your opinion a great deal more, however what your saying is patently false. First you offer no evidence that carriers actually made ->LARGE<- ammounts of logistics easy, or that using them in such a way is actually feasable in a long term sense. I've run the numbers and done some pratical applications, and frankly what you are saying is complete garbage. For starters the actual m3 a carrier could move in pos gear was very limited just because of the fact that its not all usable m3. You dont have one large hold to put crap into, but instead had to have things broken up into sections. This would limit what you could actually haul in terms of pos gear. Further, the actual m3 of fuel that you could move by carriers isnt that great. I ran three small pos out of Nol- area for bob and to run all three towers for a month took 6 trips in fully expanded out itty 5's worth of fuel. And thats just 3 small mining pos, thats not heavy duty death star towers. Lastly you forget the actual fuel cost of using carriers to jump fuel. While this might have been minor when carriers first came out, tope prices have steadily been on the rise as Cap fleets continue to expand. Factor that in with the massive amounts of m3 that is required to take and hold multidudes of regions and everything else I have just said, I have patently shown that you are deluded in your thinking. The real problems that you attribute to carriers were actually a biproduct of the titan jump bridge. This allowed allainces (aka bob) to move massive freighter gangs in utter safety and thus allowed them to have massive logistics. Now if you can actually offer proof of your claims then by all means please do, but until then please keep your propaganda away from this thread.
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2007.12.26 05:50:00 - [115] Originally by: Riley Craven DC normally I respect your opinion a great deal more, however what your saying is patently false. An opinion is false? Originally by: Riley Craven First you offer no evidence that carriers actually made ->LARGE<- ammounts of logistics easy, or that using them in such a way is actually feasable in a long term sense. A carrier used to move 20 frigates at once, and now it moves even more. Fly one to the front lines every time you die, and see where your comment stands. Don't forget the 200-300k of cargo you would achieve carrying loaded industrials. Compare this to making 10-15 indy runs via gate travel. I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of you asking for evidence for what I thought everyone treated as common sense. Originally by: Riley Craven I've run the numbers and done some pratical applications, and frankly what you are saying is complete garbage. For starters the actual m3 a carrier could move in pos gear was very limited just because of the fact that its not all usable m3. You dont have one large hold to put crap into, but instead had to have things broken up into sections. This would limit what you could actually haul in terms of pos gear. Compare: One pilot with an industrial hauling POS gear to one pilot with a carrier, hauling several industrials hauling POS gear. What numbers did you run that would allow you dispute basic math? As for your argument, you'll have to explain that one better because it doesn't make any sense. If you're claiming carriers don't hold much because of fixed array sizes, well, how is that any different from industrials? Furthermore, you load up any space where extra deployables cannot be crammed with fuel. Voila, every bit of your space is utilized. Originally by: Riley Craven Further, the actual m3 of fuel that you could move by carriers isnt that great. I ran three small pos out of Nol- area for bob and to run all three towers for a month took 6 trips in fully expanded out itty 5's worth of fuel. And thats just 3 small mining pos, thats not heavy duty death star towers. Again, compare doing the same logistics with a single industrial or a carrier holding a fleet of them. What are you comparing Carriers to that makes you say their logistics capability isn't that great? Unless you're playing in high sec, being an industrialist meant you owned a carrier. Period. Originally by: Riley Craven Lastly you forget the actual fuel cost of using carriers to jump fuel. While this might have been minor when carriers first came out, tope prices have steadily been on the rise as Cap fleets continue to expand. Factor that in with the massive amounts of m3 that is required to take and hold multidudes of regions and everything else I have just said, I have patently shown that you are deluded in your thinking. You're using the cost of jumping to argue that Carriers don't make logistics easier? No, they make it costlier. But all the time you save lets you take more space, make more money, mine more ore, whack more npcs, beat more meat, and generally do things that offset the fuel cost in spades. Originally by: Riley Craven The real problems that you attribute to carriers were actually a biproduct of the titan jump bridge. This allowed allainces (aka bob) to move massive freighter gangs in utter safety and thus allowed them to have massive logistics. Now if you can actually offer proof of your claims then by all means please do, but until then please keep your propaganda away from this thread. You're contesting the fact that Carriers are the single more important change to logistics in EVE of all time, something I thought wasn't even up for discussion here. For reasons unknown you think this fact is propaganda, and shouldn't be discussed in a thread about jump logistics. Logistics on a new type of ship specifically introduced so CCP could reduce the power of Carrier logistics. Man, and all I did was explain why people aren't happy with em'.. lol tbh _______________________________ Complex Fullerene Shards; why God? :\|
Arekhon Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.12.26 07:55:00 - [116] Originally by: DigitalCommunist A carrier used to move 20 frigates at once, and now it moves even more. Fly one to the front lines every time you die, and see where your comment stands. Don't forget the 200-300k of cargo you would achieve carrying loaded industrials. Compare this to making 10-15 indy runs via gate travel. I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of you asking for evidence for what I thought everyone treated as common sense. Compare: One pilot with an industrial hauling POS gear to one pilot with a carrier, hauling several industrials hauling POS gear. . I hear that you just returned to the game after a break.... well.....carriers can no longer carry loaded haulers. Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap [BEES]
mechtech Silver Snake Enterprise	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:35:00 - [117] Originally by: Arekhon Originally by: DigitalCommunist A carrier used to move 20 frigates at once, and now it moves even more. Fly one to the front lines every time you die, and see where your comment stands. Don't forget the 200-300k of cargo you would achieve carrying loaded industrials. Compare this to making 10-15 indy runs via gate travel. I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of you asking for evidence for what I thought everyone treated as common sense. Compare: One pilot with an industrial hauling POS gear to one pilot with a carrier, hauling several industrials hauling POS gear. . He's talking about how carriers used to be, and how, regardless of price, in 7 months rorquals/JFs will be used en masse by all major alliances, making it even harder to disrupt supply lines. I hear that you just returned to the game after a break.... well.....carriers can no longer carry loaded haulers.
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2007.12.26 16:26:00 - [118] Originally by: Arekhon I hear that you just returned to the game after a break.... well.....carriers can no longer carry loaded haulers. Only the forums, I've been playing EVE for half a decade without break D: And yes I'm aware they can't do it anymore. I was suggesting CCP put jump freighters into the game as a concession to curb whining, and because there will be far fewer people using them than carriers. _______________________________ Complex Fullerene Shards; why God? :\|
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.26 16:40:00 - [119] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 13/12/2007 00:20:38 Originally by: Tadehiro Originally by: Gamesguy All you people talking about how freighters are so easilly ganked in highsec really have no clue at all. You've never been on a proper freighter op in your life. I have, lots of times. Guess what? With a single rapier you are uncatchable. You warp as fast as the rapier with 3 sensor boosters can lock you and put 2 webs on you. You warp INSTANTLY, or at least as fast as a shuttle. You dont need some ridiculous amount of logistics ships, a single rapier to web you/scout is sufficient to moving through highsec. In theory it was changed several parches ago, but I don't know if the change work or not. Currently, in theory, webs should increase the ease with which a ship enter warp. Pretty sure they changed that mechanic: last two freighter ops I've been on the FCs specifically ordered us NOT to web the freighter, and it was two seperate FCs on those ops. When was this? My last ft op was about 3 weeks ago and webs worked fine.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.27 08:00:00 - [120] Originally by: DigitalCommunist A carrier used to move 20 frigates at once, and now it moves even more. Fly one to the front lines every time you die, and see where your comment stands. Don't forget the 200-300k of cargo you would achieve carrying loaded industrials. Compare this to making 10-15 indy runs via gate travel. I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of you asking for evidence for what I thought everyone treated as common sense. You can NO LONGER load stuff into the industrials and then put those in carriers since Trinity. A carrier now can only carry what is in the corp hangar + cargo + the ships themselves (without cargo aside from charges) Sure you can move 40 frigates, but 10-20,000m3 NOT 200-300k. So they've had a serious nerf.

Koyama Ise	Posted - 2007.12.27 10:36:00 - [121] Hey how about double the capacity, give it a jump range of 6ly base and allow it to use a cloak? Wouldn't that make life easier? -------- Yes, I know I'm an alt, what are you going to do about it?
Deathdealerdoc	Posted - 2007.12.27 13:11:00 - [122] The price needs to be radically dropped or the ship needs to be buffed. Price range for a defenseless hauler with a jump drive at tops should be 2 bil. Like others have said larger cargo, the same jump distance as a carrier, and maybe a bit more hit points would bring it up to the cost/ability level that it should be at. That being said im still building one and the ability to jump from highsec is pretty darn nifty.
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2007.12.27 15:34:00 - [123] Originally by: Admiral Nova Originally by: DigitalCommunist A carrier used to move 20 frigates at once, and now it moves even more. Fly one to the front lines every time you die, and see where your comment stands. Don't forget the 200-300k of cargo you would achieve carrying loaded industrials. Compare this to making 10-15 indy runs via gate travel. I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of you asking for evidence for what I thought everyone treated as common sense. You can NO LONGER load stuff into the industrials and then put those in carriers since Trinity. A carrier now can only carry what is in the corp hangar + cargo + the ships themselves (without cargo aside from charges) Sure you can move 40 frigates, but 10-20,000m3 NOT 200-300k. So they've had a serious nerf. not entirly true u can still load ammo into ships as i understand it and im also told that u can now carry about 140mill trit and 50 mill py if u use the right ammo type purg torps im told. its not as good as jump bridges on destroyers but its not bad
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2007.12.28 01:09:00 - [124] Originally by: Admiral Nova Originally by: DigitalCommunist A carrier used to move 20 frigates at once, and now it moves even more. Fly one to the front lines every time you die, and see where your comment stands. Don't forget the 200-300k of cargo you would achieve carrying loaded industrials. Compare this to making 10-15 indy runs via gate travel. I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of you asking for evidence for what I thought everyone treated as common sense. You can NO LONGER load stuff into the industrials and then put those in carriers since Trinity. A carrier now can only carry what is in the corp hangar + cargo + the ships themselves (without cargo aside from charges) Sure you can move 40 frigates, but 10-20,000m3 NOT 200-300k. So they've had a serious nerf. Why are you lecturing me like I didn't know that already? Do you somehow not understand the use of past tense in discussion? Phrases like "used to" and "would achieve" give it away. _______________________________ Complex Fullerene Shards; why God? :\|
Zarimax Mishka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.28 12:02:00 - [125] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Originally by: Admiral Nova Originally by: DigitalCommunist A carrier used to move 20 frigates at once, and now it moves even more. Fly one to the front lines every time you die, and see where your comment stands. Don't forget the 200-300k of cargo you would achieve carrying loaded industrials. Compare this to making 10-15 indy runs via gate travel. I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of you asking for evidence for what I thought everyone treated as common sense. You can NO LONGER load stuff into the industrials and then put those in carriers since Trinity. A carrier now can only carry what is in the corp hangar + cargo + the ships themselves (without cargo aside from charges) Sure you can move 40 frigates, but 10-20,000m3 NOT 200-300k. So they've had a serious nerf. Why are you lecturing me like I didn't know that already? Do you somehow not understand the use of past tense in discussion? Phrases like "used to" and "would achieve" give it away. oh how the mighty have fallen
Hamcraft Bombshell Cartel Terror Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:13:00 - [126] After looking at the building requirements, I think the cost of the jump freighters will be way too high. It makes much more sense to haul stuff in a Rorqual, which is much cheaper, can jump further, can tank, and holds about half as much.
Riley Craven Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.28 21:24:00 - [127] Originally by: DigitalCommunist An opinion is false? Toucheà moving onà. Originally by: DigitalCommunist A carrier used to move 20 frigates at once, and now it moves even more. Fly one to the front lines every time you die, and see where your comment stands. Don't forget the 200-300k of cargo you would achieve carrying loaded industrials. Compare this to making 10-15 indy runs via gate travel. I can't even begin to describe the absurdity of you asking for evidence for what I thought everyone treated as common sense. I never once disputed that carriers made ->ship<- logistics much easier. I disputed the fact that carriers made pos spam possible. It would take multiple carriers to be able to fit a death star in. Combine that with the cost of jumping and the man power to do ONE tower (without fuel mind you) and your either pretty damn stupid to use a carrier to do pos work or you have more money than you know what do with, which brings us right back to stupid. (refer to my titan comment and freighter ops) Originally by: DigitalCommunist Compare: One pilot with an industrial hauling POS gear to one pilot with a carrier, hauling several industrials hauling POS gear. What numbers did you run that would allow you dispute basic math? Again, compare doing the same logistics with a single industrial or a carrier holding a fleet of them. What are you comparing Carriers to that makes you say their logistics capability isn't that great? Unless you're playing in high sec, being an industrialist meant you owned a carrier. Period. You're using the cost of jumping to argue that Carriers don't make logistics easier? No, they make it costlier. But all the time you save lets you take more space, make more money, mine more ore, whack more npcs, beat more meat, and generally do things that offset the fuel cost in spades. You're using the cost of jumping to argue that Carriers don't make logistics easier? No, they make it costlier. But all the time you save lets you take more space, make more money, mine more ore, whack more npcs, beat more meat, and generally do things that offset the fuel cost in spades. I think you missed the entirety of what I was getting at. The cost of maintaining massive pos networks with carriers is balanced with the cost of carriers. Your falling pray to the same argument that other people seem to: example, mining the mins to build ships and then selling the built product for less than what you could have sold the mins for. You say that it saves you time, space, money etc, but the fact of the matter is that you cant just right off that fuel cost. It takes time to mine ice, time that a person could be spent in PVP or other pursuits that would probably earn that person more money in the long run. If you buy the fuel outright you still have to spend time raising the isk to do so. If the alliance pays for it the money has to come from somewhere and probably could have been spent more wisely on other endeavors. As an industrialist in 0.0 I can patently claim that owning a carrier was not required to do a job ->period<- I owned a personal carrier and I used it to jump named loot to empire. That is the ONLY purpose I used it for. I never ONCE used my carrier to do my job for BNC.E because it would have been incredibly stupid to do so. Why? Because jumping all that crap around Delve would have added to the cost of maintaining the pos and decreased the profits from the entire network. Further carriers would have never been able to touch the quantities of m3 that needed to be moved to get things done. It would have taken fleets of carriers to do that when two freighters did the job 10x better.
Riley Craven Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.28 21:25:00 - [128] Edited by: Riley Craven on 28/12/2007 21:26:03 Originally by: DigitalCommunist You're contesting the fact that Carriers are the single more important change to logistics in EVE of all time, something I thought wasn't even up for discussion here. For reasons unknown you think this fact is propaganda, and shouldn't be discussed in a thread about jump logistics. Logistics on a new type of ship specifically introduced so CCP could reduce the power of Carrier logistics. Man, and all I did was explain why people aren't happy with em'.. No, I am not contesting the fact that carriers changed the face of logistics, merely that what you are saying is taken out of context when looking at the whole picture instead of just the lop sided view you were trying to push. I am basically saying that carriers were balanced before the nerf. I am also contesting the fact that if you think carriers are are the reason you donÆt see industrial kills anymore with pos gear is because of jump bridges and Titans. There is no way an alliance could move the m3 that it takes to take hold and maintain space with carriers. Until you actually have run such a network I am asking you to see the sense of my words: Carries can not maintain massive alliance infrastructure. Nothing more, nothing less. As for as jump freighters are concerned, yes there will be stupid people that use them, all the smart people however will be using rorqs instead.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.31 13:01:00 - [129] For that matter it is a pain to supply the shopping needs of an alliance alone with carriers. The problem is that jump freighters are so flawed that they arent worth it. Spend 2 bil and get a rorqual or 7.5 bil and get a jump freighter. Rorqual vs Jump Freighter: Tanking: Rorqual ... tanking a jump frieghter cant even be done remotely. Hauling: jump freighter has 250k with skills whereas a haul fitted rorqual will be pushing 125. Jump Distance: Same Bonus Utility: All jump freighter bonuses except the cargo capacity ones are a waste of electrons. Rorqual's other features make it an excellent usable ship other than hauling. CCP has to face facts: Jump Freighters are messed up, Heavy interdictors are badly concieved and executed. EAFs arent worth their hefty price tags. Interdictor speed nerf was a colossal screwup. Nice graphics in trinity but thats about all its good for. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Bob Niac Gallente Meridian Dynamics PURGE.	Posted - 2007.12.31 15:18:00 - [130] replace hp bonus with 7.5% resist (hull) per level, up its agility, and make a way to cyno out via keyboard.



Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.