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More nerf for the drake please

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Ulstan Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.10 19:05:00 - [61] Edited by: Ulstan on 10/11/2007 19:07:31 Quote: I have taken a few drakes on my own ratting in belts in my vagabond with little to no problem other than they lived for long enough for me to reload, the fact is that a tech 1 ship shouldn't really be able to omnitank that much damage. If you're killing battlecruisers in a cruiser, and your only complaint is that killing the battlecruiser 'takes too long' it's not the battlecruiser that needs nerfing... It had no chance of realistically hurting you, trading all that away for a chance to live a little bit longer, and you're still complaining? Vagabond pilots really do want everything.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.10 19:18:00 - [62] Originally by: Zendoc With really good missile skills the drake can do alot of damage, and it still has that insane tank. The one thing that can be said about them, is you can just fly away. I was in a gang once with a huginn, vagabond, ishkur, celestis, and caracal. We stumbled upon a lone drake, and for the life of us couldn't break his tank. He kept primarying our vagabond and every time we got close to breaking his tank, the vaga had to turn on his mwd to let his shield refil some, and the damage he did with the mwd on was not nearly attiquate to break the tank, so as the vaga repaired his shield, so too did the Drake. I think its a little overboard that a drake should be able to tank that much firepower with no problem. I mean, its a tech 1 battlecruiser for crying out loud. LOL! Are you saying the damage the vaga did made the difference? * * ** *** Phear my sig! Nice hamster, but the pic is too big... and not eve related - Mindstar
Bentula	Posted - 2007.11.10 21:41:00 - [63] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 10/11/2007 19:07:31 Quote: I have taken a few drakes on my own ratting in belts in my vagabond with little to no problem other than they lived for long enough for me to reload, the fact is that a tech 1 ship shouldn't really be able to omnitank that much damage. If you're killing battlecruisers in a cruiser, and your only complaint is that killing the battlecruiser 'takes too long' it's not the battlecruiser that needs nerfing... It had no chance of realistically hurting you, trading all that away for a chance to live a little bit longer, and you're still complaining? Vagabond pilots really do want everything. The vagabond is a HAC. Repeat with me. A HAC is not a cruiser. Its perfectly fine for a pvp fitted t2 ship to kill a pve fitted t1 ship one or even two classes above it, especially if your enemy has a couple of rats on it helping you out. On the topic, the drake is annoying. If you get caught in a belt, in a pve fitting, you screwed up. You deserve to die. The whole point of nonconsensual pvp is that you die if you screw up. Sitting there saying "nanana you cant hurt me, ill go fix me a coffee and when i get back i log" does only encourage one thing, and that is blobbing. On one hand people complain that dropping carriers left right and center is the new FoTY in lowsec, and on the other hand we have t1 ships that cost less than the fitting on some HACs, that you simply cant break in a small skirmish gang in a reasonable amount of time. I dont want to shoot at a stupid drake for 5 min, especially as with the current drake its a pretty onesided fight. And i dont want to have to use overkill in form of 5vs1 every time we might encounter a drake. I dont care how much the drake sacrifices for it, it encourages bad gameplay. P.S. I support the resistance bonus on the drake getting switched to a rof or damage bonus, i dont care. Atleast it would make for more interesting fights.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Bentula Vagabond is a HAC and should wtfpwn everything in the game, because its PVP fitted. Bait tanks are stupid and I should be able to gank them in 30 seconds or less. Edited slightly, but that's about the gist of it. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Ulstan Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.11 00:20:00 - [65] Edited by: Ulstan on 11/11/2007 00:24:18 You know, I started out feeling fairly neutral about the whole thing - I think the drake exchanging the 5% resists for a 5% rof and 5% damage bonus sounds awesome - but the more I read of the absolutely inane and foolish whines by the people who just can't kill a drake fast enough, and the more I read of Ling's math, the more I see that actually, shield tanking, yes, even on a drake, is just fine. Quote: Its perfectly fine for a pvp fitted t2 ship to kill a pve fitted t1 ship one or even two classes above it L2R. The discussion is around the fact that the t1 ship can't touch the t2 ship of a lower class. The t2 ship is never in danger of dying and is whining that it actually takes some time to kill a ship of a higher class. What happened to the risk vs reward? Obviously that's broken. And the complete unsuitability of pve fittings for pvp is a whole separate topic, but is likewise a large failing on CCP's part. Quote: If you get caught in a belt... You deserve to die. We see what unrealistic expectations the "nerf tanking" whiners have. They want to warp in, see their hapless pve fitted prey blow up on sight, and collect the loot. Nevermind that CCP has basically seen fit to give you an auto win against pve mission runners simply by fitting for pvp, the almost riskless aspect of it isn't enough for you - you want your enemy to die eve faster, to have even less of a chance (if that is possible) than they do now. Tough. Quote: I dont want to shoot at a stupid drake for 5 min Then don't, dumbass. Just fly away? The drake didn't come looking for you, you went looking for him. If you feel that your certain victory in one or two instances just doesn't come fast enough for your impatience, feel free to fly off elsewhere. It's amusing to see gankers solemnly tell us that having ships that take more than a few seconds to gank is bad for the game. Also, in almost any MMO, when one class/ship/build starts complaining that "My foes die, but not quickly enough for my tastes" you know that not only do you turn a deaf ear to their complaints, but you investigate the whiners for possible overpowerdness.
Cautet Cold Blooded Killers	Posted - 2007.11.11 01:11:00 - [66] Edited by: Cautet on 11/11/2007 01:21:28 Was this a serious post by the OP? Even the OP must admit that the t2 cruiser the Vagabond is a better ship than a passive tanked drake - vagabonds though trade some of their damage for being totaly unkillable. A drake trades damage for being a sitting duck with a tank. Take a different HAC with you next time maybe, or a bc or bs, or less ewar. The mention of the Myrm nerf by the OP is confusing - as the passive tanked drake is not a good pvp ship, so how is this relevant to the myrm? I really feel for the devs sometimes, reading this forum.
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.11.11 02:58:00 - [67] Edited by: Matiaj on 11/11/2007 03:01:30 Replacing the 5% shield resist by a 5% damage or rof bonus would make HAM drakes stupidly overpowered. Hitting up to 15km+ without penalty and being able to switch to javelin ammo for even more range are already huge advantages over blasters/ACs. If in top of that it does more dps than blasters/ACs even at point-blank, where's the balance seriously? The Drake is fine.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.11 03:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: I dont want to shoot at a stupid drake for 5 min Then don't, dumbass. QFT.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.11 03:33:00 - [69] agreed, give the drake more gank less tank.
Eva Reedy	Posted - 2007.11.11 03:51:00 - [70] um how about giving some real examples of what exactly you think needs to be nerfed on the drake and why.incompetant pvp skills not withstanding....otherwise stfu.
Dracon Zethera	Posted - 2007.11.11 04:53:00 - [71] Drakes and ravens seem to be the only ships that show up on my killboards Yeah the drake can fit a nasty tank, but just because it can do that doesn't make it the best thing out there. I think it is still pretty balanced and I have never had a problem killing one. Of course I don't solo so I can't give input on that aspect.
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.	Posted - 2007.11.11 05:00:00 - [72] I fly only the Drake in 0.0 because it's the only decent ship I can afford to lose without feeling like an idiot and being put off the game for a while. Give it a missile velocity bonus like the Raven and I'd be happy. Maybe because I have BC level 5... hrrm. -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.11 07:18:00 - [73] I would hate for the Drake to lose 5% resists for 5% rate of fire with the kinetic bonus untouched. 5% RoF and damage though, would make for a ship worth flying.
Allestin Villimar Dark Nova Crisis	Posted - 2007.11.11 08:59:00 - [74] Don't like not being able to break a drake? Train up an amarr or gallente BS to a decent level. You should have no problems in an apoc or abaddon breaking a drake, and there's a corp mate of mine who flies a t2 fitted hyp that can easily break my drake with faction resists and all tanking skills at 5 except BC. He doesn't even need to use his drones. The only ways I could possibly improve my tank would be to get 5% implants and BC to 5. Even then, with that he'd probably just have to pull out his drones. If you devote an equal amount of time training up damage that I have to my tank, you should be able to break it, because I know others who can that have spent less. Yes, drakes have a nasty tank. If they're omni-tanked, they can't scramble you, and you should be able to get away before they bring you down. If they're scrambling you, then they've got a pretty big resist hole you should be able to exploit. ...in bed.
RisingDragon	Posted - 2007.11.11 11:23:00 - [75] There is nothing wrong with the drake as is, yes its tank can be made to be insane but at the price of tackling and dps but more importantly cap. If your gang has to run or chase in pvp, you can garuantee that within a small amount of jumps, the drake wont be able to recharge its cap enough to jump across a system and will fall behind. Besides if it didnt have its tank, it would have nothing going for it
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.11 12:56:00 - [76] Swapping the hardener bonus for a 5% ROF bonus would make the Drake capable of doing a hilarious 821 DPS, with T2 HAMs, 3x BCS II and drones. That's before imp ants, as well. It would have a tank of pure lol, though...
Allestin Villimar Dark Nova Crisis	Posted - 2007.11.11 15:34:00 - [77] Mm, battleship damage or battleship tank? Decisions decisions.... ...in bed.
Krystyn Caldari Serenity Rising LLC	Posted - 2007.11.11 16:14:00 - [78] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/11/2007 08:04:35 An All Out Tank Drake with all 5's: 7 HML II, <empty slot> 3x LSE II, 2x Invuln II, SR II 4x SPR II 3x CDFP I 16680 HP, 152 recharge (Peak = 262 HP/sec) Tankable vs various ammo types: EM: 677 Thermal: 846 Kinetic: 1128 Explosive: 1691 Void: 967 Null: 954 Antimatter: 990 Hail: 1528 Barrage: 1378 EMP: 954 PP: 890 Fusion: 1538 Sabot: 1269 Depleted Uranium: 1177 Proton: 877 Nuclear: 1480 Carbonized Lead: 1353 Quake: 1435 Scorch: 702 Ion-AM-5x Heavy Myrm: 890 Scorch Harbinger w/5 Hammer II -> 740 Barrage Hurricane w/5x Hob II -> 1058 Kin Drake w/Hobs -> 1043 7 Neutron-AM 5x Hammer II Brutix: 893 Barrage Cyclone: 1029 Serpentis damage layout: 940 Guristas damage layout: 1083 Sentry gun damage layout: 967 You should have used PP, and a plate Harbinger could take it out solo, I'm reasonably sure. Liang Ed: Superfluous reference and ridiculous whitespace at the end. Hmm your setup is very similar to mine... although I have shield hardener rigs on mine in stead of the recharger rigs, but then again i have SR IIs where your in invulnIIs are. The Drake's sick tank is just that its a ship that is very conducive to passive tanking, so if you have good skills and all tech 2 or better gear its going to take a lot of DPS to break. Now that drake that whole gang couldn't kill might have had some gistii or pithii shield booster with an even better tank than some of us mentioned we fly with I could understand
joshmorris Ravenous Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.11 18:46:00 - [79] Drake is overpowered imo, i know it doesnt do as much damage as the other tier 2 bc (until teh nerf) BUT it can tank to where it will slowly take out oppontents ( I know it cant tackle but if it has friends like the 3-5 people trying to break its tank it pwns) I mean myrmidon can now never kill a drake solo. Doesnt have enough damage, No way of defending its main damage dealer (drones) because sensor damps are getting nerfed. Basically myrmidon is now like a drake with prolly the same damage but alot less tank. Drake deals good damage and tanks amazing(even with 1 point). Harbinger ... well ive never seen 1 in pvp. Hurricane ... deals wicked damage , good solo ship, cant tank that well. Oh and all can be jammed and do like hardly any damage but drakes can use fofs. But yeah, tweak the drake a lil ... maybe take away its tanking bonus for a lil damage bonus ( So it cant tank a fully gank deimos anymore ) So yeah not a nerf (we all hate them) more of a tweak. Uber idea solves all !!
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:16:00 - [80] The Drake's tank is the only real redeeming factor. Those who complain about it are usually forgetting that it's useless for doing anything else. ---
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:23:00 - [81] Edited by: Matiaj on 11/11/2007 19:26:25 Originally by: joshmorris it can tank to where it will slowly take out oppontents ( I know it cant tackle but if it has friends like the 3-5 people trying to break its tank it pwns) Why are the 3-5 people stupidly trying to break the Drake's tank, instead of pwning his friends and then leaving? It's not like the passive Drake's huge dps and awesome ewar capabilities are going to prevent them from doing so.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:34:00 - [82] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 11/11/2007 00:24:18 You know, I started out feeling fairly neutral about the whole thing - I think the drake exchanging the 5% resists for a 5% rof and 5% damage bonus sounds awesome - but the more I read of the absolutely inane and foolish whines by the people who just can't kill a drake fast enough, and the more I read of Ling's math, the more I see that actually, shield tanking, yes, even on a drake, is just fine. Quote: Its perfectly fine for a pvp fitted t2 ship to kill a pve fitted t1 ship one or even two classes above it L2R. The discussion is around the fact that the t1 ship can't touch the t2 ship of a lower class. The t2 ship is never in danger of dying and is whining that it actually takes some time to kill a ship of a higher class. What happened to the risk vs reward? Obviously that's broken. And the complete unsuitability of pve fittings for pvp is a whole separate topic, but is likewise a large failing on CCP's part. Quote: If you get caught in a belt... You deserve to die. We see what unrealistic expectations the "nerf tanking" whiners have. They want to warp in, see their hapless pve fitted prey blow up on sight, and collect the loot. Nevermind that CCP has basically seen fit to give you an auto win against pve mission runners simply by fitting for pvp, the almost riskless aspect of it isn't enough for you - you want your enemy to die eve faster, to have even less of a chance (if that is possible) than they do now. Tough. Quote: I dont want to shoot at a stupid drake for 5 min Then don't, dumbass. Just fly away? The drake didn't come looking for you, you went looking for him. If you feel that your certain victory in one or two instances just doesn't come fast enough for your impatience, feel free to fly off elsewhere. It's amusing to see gankers solemnly tell us that having ships that take more than a few seconds to gank is bad for the game. Also, in almost any MMO, when one class/ship/build starts complaining that "My foes die, but not quickly enough for my tastes" you know that not only do you turn a deaf ear to their complaints, but you investigate the whiners for possible overpowerdness. 1. Your insulting, and for that dumbass comment ill report you. 2. Dont quote only halve a sentence to make your arguments look better. That only proves that had you quoted it whole and not out of context it would weaken your argument. 3. I practice what i preach. When i screw up, i dont cry like a baby but accept its my own fault. If your alone, in a belt, and get catched by a ship you cant outrun or kill, you lost, double so if your in a mining or ratting setup. His friends will arrive and kill you if he cant do it alone. If they dont, you either where not unprepared, ir had some incredible, incredible luck. This whole nonsense about the evil pkers killing the poor carebears is fairly stupid. I have zero problem with using passive tanks as bait or in pvp setups, cause when i fall for a bait it means I have screwed up and deserve to die and in pvp setups you pay a price for using passive tanks. But if you want to tell me that it makes sense for a passive tanked BC to tank better than a passive tanked BS, that sacrifices just as much, makes somehow sense i disagree. Why dont we get a cruiser that tanks even better than that BC? And a frigate that tanks even better than that cruiser again, sounds good? P.S. Most experience pilots would kill to trade a tanking bonus for a rof bonus on ANY ship, yet people behave as if i would advocate nerfing the drake to uselessness. Thats far from what i want, i want more fun for ALL involved, and that includes drake pilots no matter wether they fit for pve or pvp.
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:41:00 - [83] Edited by: Matiaj on 11/11/2007 19:45:13 Originally by: Bentula But if you want to tell me that it makes sense for a passive tanked BC to tank better than a passive tanked BS, that sacrifices just as much, makes somehow sense i disagree. Why dont we get a cruiser that tanks even better than that BC? And a frigate that tanks even better than that cruiser again, sounds good? Yep, sounds good. They would be totally useless anyway. What's the problem? 4 regular ships + 1 passive tanking frigate of doom vs 5 regular ships Guess who wins.
Karentaki Gallente federation navy taskforce	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:54:00 - [84] Drakes are NOT overpowered - admittedly, it's a bit annoying that a HAC takes several minutes to kill one, but the DPS on a drake is terrible compared to a similarly expensively fitted myrmidon (pre nerf) or any other BC for that matter. If you spend 20-30 mill on a T2 fitting for a BC that can do nothing but tank, then you deserve to get a very good tank for your money. Seriously, before you complain about ships being overpowered and cry for a nerf, try flying a drake in PvP - I'm pretty sure you won't be able to kill any other BC out there, and the fight will end in a stalemate. If you call that overpowered, can I PLEASE have your stuff ======================= Originally by: Tarminic OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
Bentula	Posted - 2007.11.11 20:04:00 - [85] Originally by: Matiaj Edited by: Matiaj on 11/11/2007 19:49:19 Originally by: Bentula But if you want to tell me that it makes sense for a passive tanked BC to tank better than a passive tanked BS, that sacrifices just as much, makes somehow sense i disagree. Why dont we get a cruiser that tanks even better than that BC? And a frigate that tanks even better than that cruiser again, sounds good? Yep, sounds good. They would be totally useless anyway. What's the problem? 4 regular ships + 1 passive tanking frigate of doom vs 5 regular ships Guess who wins. Edit : Actually, the 4+1 gang might win. After reading the thread I'm inclined to believe that most pilots would actually focus fire the tanking frig while getting destroyed by the rest. Ok, lets just think a second about why such a frig doesnt already exist. I thought about 5 sec and i came up with: 1. Nearly indestructible disposable cynoships, good luck killing something that outtanks a drake with smartbombs. Might aswell have cynoships become completly invulnurable while opening a field. 2. Doing even the hardest pve encounters with two ships easy, one alt in this frig the other in a gankbs. Guess who warps in first. 3. Promotes logging off. Do so before they manage to agress you and they cant kill you in time. Am i the only one seeing a problem with encouraging people to use logging off as a valid INGAME tactic? 4. If your an awesome tank with all slots dedicated, you can still be a damn good one with two slots less. Low sig + good tank = tackler of doom. Ok i admit i thought more than 5 sec about it, and i probably could go on. Point is just because you can think of one situation where a ship or setup isnt a problem doesnt mean that there are no problems at all. The usefulness of a ship isnt defined by its offensive value alone, there is a world of balancing considerations that have nothing at all to do with how much damage something does. P.S. Just noticed that i developed a hang of numerating my arguments, actually i dislike people who do that ... you bring out the worst in me .
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.11 20:51:00 - [86] You can only armour tank with Low slots though. Passive Shield tanks will use up both Low AND Medium slots, leaving nothing for... well, anything really You can still MWD and Tackle with a decent Armour Tank. You can still fit Damage Mods with a decent (active) Shield tank. Sadly with a passive shield tank you can do neither without it sucking -----
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.11 21:05:00 - [87] Quote: try flying a drake in PvP - I'm pretty sure you won't be able to kill any other BC out there Hehe. The poor Hurricane pilot I killed earlier did seem rather surprised...

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