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More nerf for the drake please

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Deathnail	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:16:00 - [1] Really, especially with nerfing to the Myrm, drake is rediculous. Looks like Caldari are getting all the love they need - why not at least make the drake a little easier to kill without 3 people?
Aprudena Gist Caldari Capital Development and Security Industries	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:17:00 - [2] 2 mega's setup with blasters can kill one eventually. ssshhh.
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:21:00 - [3] just throw a web and a point on it, it's not going anywhere, and certainly not going to make you leave =P Since most ships can deal out waaaay more firepower than they themselves can tank, what's the problem with having a ship that occasionally does the opposite? __________________________________
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:31:00 - [4] With really good missile skills the drake can do alot of damage, and it still has that insane tank. The one thing that can be said about them, is you can just fly away. I was in a gang once with a huginn, vagabond, ishkur, celestis, and caracal. We stumbled upon a lone drake, and for the life of us couldn't break his tank. He kept primarying our vagabond and every time we got close to breaking his tank, the vaga had to turn on his mwd to let his shield refil some, and the damage he did with the mwd on was not nearly attiquate to break the tank, so as the vaga repaired his shield, so too did the Drake. I think its a little overboard that a drake should be able to tank that much firepower with no problem. I mean, its a tech 1 battlecruiser for crying out loud.
Jungle KungFu Minmatar Dickens-Cider	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:36:00 - [5] Edited by: Jungle KungFu on 10/11/2007 06:35:57 Originally by: Zendoc With really good missile skills the drake can do alot of damage, and it still has that insane tank. The one thing that can be said about them, is you can just fly away. I was in a gang once with a huginn, vagabond, ishkur, celestis, and caracal. We stumbled upon a lone drake, and for the life of us couldn't break his tank. He kept primarying our vagabond and every time we got close to breaking his tank, the vaga had to turn on his mwd to let his shield refil some, and the damage he did with the mwd on was not nearly attiquate to break the tank, so as the vaga repaired his shield, so too did the Drake. I think its a little overboard that a drake should be able to tank that much firepower with no problem. I mean, its a tech 1 battlecruiser for crying out loud. wow you guys suck
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Jungle KungFu Edited by: Jungle KungFu on 10/11/2007 06:35:57 Originally by: Zendoc With really good missile skills the drake can do alot of damage, and it still has that insane tank. The one thing that can be said about them, is you can just fly away. I was in a gang once with a huginn, vagabond, ishkur, celestis, and caracal. We stumbled upon a lone drake, and for the life of us couldn't break his tank. He kept primarying our vagabond and every time we got close to breaking his tank, the vaga had to turn on his mwd to let his shield refil some, and the damage he did with the mwd on was not nearly attiquate to break the tank, so as the vaga repaired his shield, so too did the Drake. I think its a little overboard that a drake should be able to tank that much firepower with no problem. I mean, its a tech 1 battlecruiser for crying out loud. wow you guys suck Its true, some of the pilots with us (the caracal and the celestis) were rather new pilots so in all fairness weren't doing much besides sensor damping him and firing the occasional volley of heavy milssiles, but regardless, its just a matter of bodies, we should have had enough bodies and different ammo types to be able to kill the guy. Combination of the guy knew how to fly and his ships tank was just wtfcrazy.
iiOs	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Zendoc Originally by: Jungle KungFu Edited by: Jungle KungFu on 10/11/2007 06:35:57 Originally by: Zendoc With really good missile skills the drake can do alot of damage, and it still has that insane tank. The one thing that can be said about them, is you can just fly away. I was in a gang once with a huginn, vagabond, ishkur, celestis, and caracal. We stumbled upon a lone drake, and for the life of us couldn't break his tank. He kept primarying our vagabond and every time we got close to breaking his tank, the vaga had to turn on his mwd to let his shield refil some, and the damage he did with the mwd on was not nearly attiquate to break the tank, so as the vaga repaired his shield, so too did the Drake. I think its a little overboard that a drake should be able to tank that much firepower with no problem. I mean, its a tech 1 battlecruiser for crying out loud. wow you guys suck Its true, some of the pilots with us (the caracal and the celestis) were rather new pilots so in all fairness weren't doing much besides sensor damping him and firing the occasional volley of heavy milssiles, but regardless, its just a matter of bodies, we should have had enough bodies and different ammo types to be able to kill the guy. Combination of the guy knew how to fly and his ships tank was just wtfcrazy.
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:41:00 - [8] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 10/11/2007 06:43:30 Originally by: Zendoc With really good missile skills the drake can do alot of damage, and it still has that insane tank. The one thing that can be said about them, is you can just fly away. I was in a gang once with a huginn, vagabond, ishkur, celestis, and caracal. We stumbled upon a lone drake, and for the life of us couldn't break his tank. He kept primarying our vagabond and every time we got close to breaking his tank, the vaga had to turn on his mwd to let his shield refil some, and the damage he did with the mwd on was not nearly attiquate to break the tank, so as the vaga repaired his shield, so too did the Drake. I think its a little overboard that a drake should be able to tank that much firepower with no problem. I mean, its a tech 1 battlecruiser for crying out loud. How much firepower is that? Not a single one of those ships are known for their DPS. And you have what looks like zero sources of EM damage. EDITED FOR DOUCHEBAGGERY That gang could probably take down a lot, but yeah, a passive drake is going to be one of the few things you can't kill. You still have a lot of target selections though and if you had had maybe 2x thoraxes instead of an ishkur and caracal - i.e., brought more raw dps - he probably would have gone down fine. live and learn, i guess. __________________________________
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:43:00 - [9] Nah, I was fitting republic EMP, loads of EM damage.
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:45:00 - [10] Originally by: Zendoc Nah, I was fitting republic EMP, loads of EM damage. meh, half EM, rest explosive and kinetic. I'd have gone with phased plasma TBH - thermal tends to be second-lowest resist and phased plasma is something like 70% thermal. too lazy to do the math. __________________________________
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:48:00 - [11] I'll admit, its the only case I can think of that a drake really gave us a hard time. I have taken a few drakes on my own ratting in belts in my vagabond with little to no problem other than they lived for long enough for me to reload, the fact is that a tech 1 ship shouldn't really be able to omnitank that much damage.
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:50:00 - [12] Edited by: Zendoc on 10/11/2007 06:51:29 Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Zendoc Nah, I was fitting republic EMP, loads of EM damage. meh, half EM, rest explosive and kinetic. I'd have gone with phased plasma TBH - thermal tends to be second-lowest resist and phased plasma is something like 70% thermal. too lazy to do the math. You'd be wrong then. Look at the difference in the damage dealt between republic emp and phased plasma. Even with the shield resist on explosive, the amount of explosive damage high enough to compensate for high shield resitances. Plus the primary damage done is EM which tends to be the lowest resist for shields.
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:54:00 - [13] Originally by: Zendoc I'll admit, its the only case I can think of that a drake really gave us a hard time. I have taken a few drakes on my own ratting in belts in my vagabond with little to no problem other than they lived for long enough for me to reload, the fact is that a tech 1 ship shouldn't really be able to omnitank that much damage. If you devote as many slots as possible to speed, you can go pretty damned fast, at the expense of pretty much everything else. Ditto for tank, ditto for damage. Passive shield tanking is unique in that a passive tank utilizing only a few slots is little more than a HP buffer, much like a ship that devotes a few low slots and rig slots to plates, resists, and trimarks. However, a ship can also devote 100% (literally, 100%) of its mids and low slots to passive tanking, resulting in a much stronger tank. I don't think it's that passive tanks are overpowered relative to the number of slots that they take up, but that they are unique in that they can devote all of their slots to said tank, whereas other ships can realistically devote a portion of their slots to the tank. I don't think it's that much of a problem to be honest. One drake may be able to tank a gank-megathron, but two drakes versus two gankthrons? Those drakes are going to pop awfully quickly to 2500 dps and pose very little threat to the gankthrons in that time. __________________________________
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 06:59:00 - [14] Not that I think it will happen, but i don't think it would hurt much to lower some of its natural resistances a tad. After all, I will stress once again, it is a tech 1 ship.
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Zendoc Edited by: Zendoc on 10/11/2007 06:51:29 Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Zendoc Nah, I was fitting republic EMP, loads of EM damage. meh, half EM, rest explosive and kinetic. I'd have gone with phased plasma TBH - thermal tends to be second-lowest resist and phased plasma is something like 70% thermal. too lazy to do the math. You'd be wrong then. Look at the difference in the damage dealt between republic emp and phased plasma. Even with the shield resist on explosive, the amount of explosive damage high enough to compensate for high shield resitances. Plus the primary damage done is EM which tends to be the lowest resist for shields. Of course if you were using Republic Fleet EMP, you'd be using Republic Fleet PP as well. However, even if the drake doesn't bother hardening EM specifically, PP is still better. Behold, maths, pulled out of EFT. For a drake fitting as follows: (max skills, no implants) High: Whatever Mid: 3x LSE II, 3x Invuln II Low: 2x PDU II, 2x SPR II [to run indefinitely] Rig: 3x Core Defence Field Purger I This ship will tank 754 damage spread evenly across all four types. By using EFT's "Damage Profile" tool, you can plug in the damage ratios for EMP and PP. The resists on this ship are: 67.8 EM, 74.3 TH, 80.7 KI, 87.1 EX Phased Plasma (80% Thermal, 20% Kinetic) The drake will tank 694 DPS when being fired upon by a source dealing 80% thermal, 20% kinetic damage, i.e., any version of phased plasma (small, medium, large, faction, whatever) EMP (45.45% EM, 36.36% Ex, 18.18% Kin) The drake will tank 744 DPS when being fired upon by a source of this damage ratio, regardless of size (EMP L, Domination EMP S, 10 EM missiles/8 EX missiles/4 KIN missiles, whatever) So no, even if the drake does not use a hardener to plug the EM hole, phased plasma is still a better choice. Let's replace an Invuln with a Photon II, just for kicks. It now tanks 750 evenly spread, or 881 using EMP, or 576 with phased plasma. So no, unless I am missing something key, I am not, in fact, wrong. __________________________________
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:18:00 - [16] Drakes tank to powerful? Support the idea to change it's bonuses to 5% launcher RoF and +5% heavy and HA missile damage! :p -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:19:00 - [17] Edited by: Zendoc on 10/11/2007 07:23:29 You didn't state republic fleet phased plasma. Republic emp > regular phased plasma.
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Kadoes Khan Drakes tank to powerful? Support the idea to change it's bonuses to 5% launcher RoF and +5% heavy and HA missile damage! :p 33% less tank, 33% more damage of whatever damage type? Awesome __________________________________
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Zendoc You didn't state republic fleet phased plasma. Picky picky. My point was, pretty clearly I thought, that phased plasma penetrates equally-hardened, t1 shields better than EMP. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough. __________________________________
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:29:00 - [20] Hmm methinks I was thinking about Hail. Stick that in your calculator and let me know how it comes out. Obviously hail on a vagabond is not the best choice, but... when you think about it hail on any ship is not the best choice, and hail on a vaga or sleipnir is better really than hail on any other ship.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.10 07:50:00 - [21] I'm a Drake pilot most of the time myself, and I would just love a drop of the 5% resists bonus for, err, 5% launcher RoF bonus... keep the rest as it is _ New character creation guide \| [CNVTF] corp recruiting \| Stacknerfs explained
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:03:00 - [22] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/11/2007 08:04:35 An All Out Tank Drake with all 5's: 7 HML II, <empty slot> 3x LSE II, 2x Invuln II, SR II 4x SPR II 3x CDFP I 16680 HP, 152 recharge (Peak = 262 HP/sec) Tankable vs various ammo types: EM: 677 Thermal: 846 Kinetic: 1128 Explosive: 1691 Void: 967 Null: 954 Antimatter: 990 Hail: 1528 Barrage: 1378 EMP: 954 PP: 890 Fusion: 1538 Sabot: 1269 Depleted Uranium: 1177 Proton: 877 Nuclear: 1480 Carbonized Lead: 1353 Quake: 1435 Scorch: 702 Ion-AM-5x Heavy Myrm: 890 Scorch Harbinger w/5 Hammer II -> 740 Barrage Hurricane w/5x Hob II -> 1058 Kin Drake w/Hobs -> 1043 7 Neutron-AM 5x Hammer II Brutix: 893 Barrage Cyclone: 1029 Serpentis damage layout: 940 Guristas damage layout: 1083 Sentry gun damage layout: 967 You should have used PP, and a plate Harbinger could take it out solo, I'm reasonably sure. Liang Ed: Superfluous reference and ridiculous whitespace at the end. -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:04:00 - [23] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 10/11/2007 08:09:20 Edited by: Terianna Eri on 10/11/2007 08:04:47 Originally by: Zendoc Hmm methinks I was thinking about Hail. Stick that in your calculator and let me know how it comes out. Obviously hail on a vagabond is not the best choice, but... when you think about it hail on any ship is not the best choice, and hail on a vaga or sleipnir is better really than hail on any other ship. What you have to realize is that EFT does not care how much damage you throw at it, it cares about what the proportion of damage types is. However, assuming Hail M is 22EX/6Kin (i don't know offhand :P), the drake I posted will tank 1168 dps of that ratio. so if you fire Hail at it, you will need to deal over 1168 dps to blow it up, whereas if you shoot phased plasma (or republic fleet phased plasma), you will need to deal over 694 dps. The drake tanks about 68% better against Hail than it does against phased plasma. Hail however deals 40% more dps than (non-faction) phased plasma. If Hail dealt, say, 100% more dps, then yes, you would use it, but as it stands phased plasma is a better choice than Hail. EDIT: Liang forum-pwnd me EDIT: So that I'm not totally unconstructive, bring a torp raven. The drake will probably have a huge signature radius (416 with maxed-out skills, no Halos) and a torp raven can pour out pure EM damage. You would need to put out only 526 EM damage to break the tank I posted and a torp raven could probably take down the one Liang posted easily enough with good missile skills. __________________________________
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:14:00 - [24] Before we go too much further down the road of "why we should nerf the Drake", I present very good reasons why we should not nerf the Drake's passive shield tank: link Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:28:00 - [25] So wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding Liang's post, but if the numbers she is presenting are accurrate that would mean, there is no minmatar ship, sleipnir included, that could solo a drake with any ammo type. The max dps a sleipnir can put out according to quick fit, at perfect gun and drone skills, is 730 with hail ammo, at perfect firing conditions. That can't be accurrate.
Boomhaur Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:55:00 - [26] Edited by: Boomhaur on 10/11/2007 08:58:18 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/11/2007 08:04:35 An All Out Tank Drake with all 5's: 7 HML II, <empty slot> 3x LSE II, 2x Invuln II, SR II 4x SPR II 3x CDFP I 16680 HP, 152 recharge (Peak = 262 HP/sec) Sorry but that is a tank isn't that practical. I doubt you are capable running BOTH invulnerability shields at the same time, but as I recall when I use to use 4 SPR's it kills the cap recharge to the point where it was useless. And even if you were somehow able to use such things, a ship can easily neutralize your cap, and your now sitting there with little resists compared to before. Which means you will die a LOT quicker than before. And as a useless side note the DPS of Drakes are that of a wet paper towel which makes up for their good tanking ability.
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:57:00 - [27] I don't know about that... ham IIs and good missile skills does some halfway decent dps.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.10 08:59:00 - [28] Originally by: Zendoc So wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding Liang's post, but if the numbers she is presenting are accurrate that would mean, there is no minmatar ship, sleipnir included, that could solo a drake with any ammo type. The max dps a sleipnir can put out according to quick fit, at perfect gun and drone skills, is 730 with hail ammo, at perfect firing conditions. That can't be accurrate. A Sleip fit as follows does the following damage with the specified ammo: 7x 425mm AC II (XXX Ammo) 3x Gyro II Ammo: Tankable (Damage output) Hail: 1528 (857) Barrage: 1378 (701) EMP: 954 (787) PP: 890 (727) Fusion: 1538 (727) Sabot: 1269 (667) Depleted Uranium: 1177 (607) Proton: 877 (547) Nuclear: 1480 (547) Carbonized Lead: 1353 (487) Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Boomhaur Sorry but that is a tank isn't that practical. I doubt you are capable running BOTH invulnerability shields at the same time, but as I recall when I use to use 4 SPR's it kills the cap recharge to the point where it was useless. And even if you were somehow able to use such things, a ship can easily neutralize your cap, and your now sitting there with little resists compared to before. Which means you will die a LOT quicker than before. And as a useless side note the DPS of Drakes are that of a wet paper towel which makes up for their good tanking ability. Actually, what makes it unpractical is that you don't have a warp disruptor. Read the thread I linked. Now, you can run the 2 invulns for 20 minutes - and I assure you that I've PVP'd with 4 SPR II's and a warp disruptor, web, and Invuln II... and been extremely successful. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Boomhaur Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:03:00 - [30] Originally by: Zendoc I don't know about that... ham IIs and good missile skills does some halfway decent dps. I was refering to Heavy Missile Lauchers, not HAMs. I have no experience with HAMs, but in terms of HMLs I'm pretty well experienced with them. Been using them as my primary weapon for id say about a year now with using a Caracal, than a Drake, and now finally got myself a Nighthawk, just waiting for command ship V to finish off.
Boomhaur Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:10:00 - [31] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Boomhaur Sorry but that is a tank isn't that practical. I doubt you are capable running BOTH invulnerability shields at the same time, but as I recall when I use to use 4 SPR's it kills the cap recharge to the point where it was useless. And even if you were somehow able to use such things, a ship can easily neutralize your cap, and your now sitting there with little resists compared to before. Which means you will die a LOT quicker than before. And as a useless side note the DPS of Drakes are that of a wet paper towel which makes up for their good tanking ability. Actually, what makes it unpractical is that you don't have a warp disruptor. Read the thread I linked. Now, you can run the 2 invulns for 20 minutes - and I assure you that I've PVP'd with 4 SPR II's and a warp disruptor, web, and Invuln II... and been extremely successful. Liang Either your really lucky or I got back luck. Every PVPer I seem to encouter packs a neutralizer (or nos back in the day), and wouldve killed its cap a lot sooner. goes to read thread, since it came after he hit the reply and went afk
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:17:00 - [32] 77/4 kill ratio says it wasn't luck. ;-) Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Boomhaur Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:18:00 - [33] Edited by: Boomhaur on 10/11/2007 09:18:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren 77/4 kill ratio says it wasn't luck. ;-) Liang Guess I have bad luck than, just like in life, but on the bright side if I didn't have bad luck I wouldn't have any luck at all lol.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Zendoc I don't know about that... ham IIs and good missile skills does some halfway decent dps. Not with no BCUs they don't. Not that you can fit a rack of HAM IIs and a full thirteen slot passive tank either due to grid requirements. Originally by: Zendoc So wait, maybe I'm misunderstanding Liang's post, but if the numbers she is presenting are accurrate that would mean, there is no minmatar ship, sleipnir included, that could solo a drake with any ammo type. The max dps a sleipnir can put out according to quick fit, at perfect gun and drone skills, is 730 with hail ammo, at perfect firing conditions. That can't be accurrate. Gank Phoon with Mjol and PP.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:28:00 - [35] Originally by: Incantare Gank Phoon with Mjol and PP. Gank AC Mael would break it pretty quick... but one thing to note is that battleship sized weapons have "high" DPS, and "high" alpha strike. The higher alpha strike provided by battleship weapons may be enough to break the "tangential" DPS tankable value even if it doesn't actually break the actual number in DPS. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Gul Rashen Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:31:00 - [36] There is no reason to nerf the Drake. Only a Fulltank Drake i able to tank so much Damage. At Fulltank it does only Girliedamage(210DPS on Kin with T2 launchers, T1 Missiles and maxed Skills), it can't be equipped wit ABs, MWDs, Webber, Scrambler, EW. It`s like a So there is no problem with the Balancing cause it is no Ubar-Ship. If you equip it for normal PvP, with Webber/Scrambler the Tank isn't stronger than the Tank of other Ships. The Problem isn`t the Drake. The Problem is that the passive Shield Tanking Modules don't have a Stacking Penalties. There are enough Ships that can fit also an Ubar-Passive Tank(nearly all CS, Myrmidon, Cyclone even a Domi). If you cry for a nerf then cry for a Nerf of the Modules. Stacking Penalties, higher Grid-Requirements for X-tenders or other Drawbacks will work better, than only nerf 1 Ship.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:32:00 - [37] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Incantare Gank Phoon with Mjol and PP. Gank AC Mael would break it pretty quick... but one thing to note is that battleship sized weapons have "high" DPS, and "high" alpha strike. The higher alpha strike provided by battleship weapons may be enough to break the "tangential" DPS tankable value even if it doesn't actually break the actual number in DPS. Liang Yes I wasn't sure on that one so I had to check. Same for the Tempest. The ability to break a passive tank with alpha strike really becomes noticeable in groups when the passive tank is kept near peak by incoming dps and then brought bellow by volley damage rather than allowed to recharge between volleys.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:33:00 - [38] Originally by: Gul Rashen The Problem isn`t the Drake. The Problem is that the passive Shield Tanking Modules don't have a Stacking Penalties. There are enough Ships that can fit also an Ubar-Passive Tank(nearly all CS, Myrmidon, Cyclone even a Domi). If you cry for a nerf then cry for a Nerf of the Modules. Stacking Penalties, higher Grid-Requirements for X-tenders or other Drawbacks will work better, than only nerf 1 Ship. Read the thread I linked to, I went further with your reasoning. Nerfing the modules themselves would completely eliminate passive shield tanking from PVP. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Gul Rashen Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:45:00 - [39] Edited by: Gul Rashen on 10/11/2007 09:47:51 Originally by: Liang Nuren Nerfing the modules themselves would completely eliminate passive shield tanking from PVP. Liang I've read it, but putting a good Stacking Penalty, with slightly raised Stats on the SPR and CDFP will work in my Eyes. If its done correctly a Tank with 3SPRs and 2 meds for EW will be still good enough, evtl. better for PvP, but equipping more Mods won't give an Ubartank. But IG i don't see really Problems with the Tank or the Drake, so there is no really reason for a nerf, except the Whining-Threads .
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.11.10 09:55:00 - [40] Originally by: Deathnail Really, especially with nerfing to the Myrm, drake is rediculous. Looks like Caldari are getting all the love they need - why not at least make the drake a little easier to kill without 3 people? Heh, did you know myrmi has comparable passive shield tank?
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.10 10:08:00 - [41] Of course, that Myrm that cant tackle or move is such a threat. Remember, no matter what, if you fight a drone boat you should try to keep your range at under 5km, preferably 2km. Yeez. Drake can sit, tank, and do meager DPS. Myrm will have theoretical high DPS, but you can dictate range. Stay on the edge of his ACs falloff, be at range and pop his drones. He cant tackle you, and he cant move, and has a signature of a whale. PvP Myrm with passive shield tank is...
Inflexible Rytiri Lva	Posted - 2007.11.10 10:15:00 - [42] Originally by: Dzajic PvP Myrm with passive shield tank is... Well drake isn't paticularly great too... Main difference between myrm and drake is fact myrm can be fitted in much better. Fit myrmi with passive shield tank, drone augumentor and some rails and enjoy caldari-like PvP.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 10:32:00 - [43] A passive-regen Drake is utterly useless in pvp and is no threat to anyone. Quote: And as a useless side note the DPS of Drakes are that of a wet paper towel which makes up for their good tanking ability. Ha, yeah, right. Fool. Try fitting a Drake properly and you'll be quite impressed. 580 DPS with realistic skills isn't too shabby. 674 DPS with max skills and 3% implants.
Zendoc Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.10 10:43:00 - [44] Edited by: Zendoc on 10/11/2007 10:44:31 I was going to say, the one I fought in my vagabond was tearing me up until i hit the MWD, but at that point even though I was doing far more dps than he was, it wasn't anywhere near adequate to break his tank. edit Tearing me up is probably a bit overplayed, but still it was doing decent damage, it would have won the fight had i not speed tanked it.
Gul Rashen Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.10 10:59:00 - [45] Edited by: Gul Rashen on 10/11/2007 11:04:57 Edited by: Gul Rashen on 10/11/2007 11:00:57 Edited by: Gul Rashen on 10/11/2007 10:59:56 Originally by: Gypsio III Ha, yeah, right. Fool. Try fitting a Drake properly and you'll be quite impressed. 580 DPS with realistic skills isn't too shabby. 674 DPS with max skills and 3% implants. But we are talking about a passive, fulltanked Drake. Even with Factionlauncher and Factionmissiles and all 5% Damage-and ROF-Imps the DPS is about 270 on Kin. And 674DPS on a Drake? Lol, show me that Fitting. With 4 CN-BCS, 7 CN-Launchers and CN-Scourge 8 have about 510 RAW-DPS, and my Missileskills are maxed and i have the 5% Imps in.
Castra Noor	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:04:00 - [46] Originally by: Gypsio III Ha, yeah, right. Fool. Try fitting a Drake properly and you'll be quite impressed. 580 DPS with realistic skills isn't too shabby. 674 DPS with max skills and 3% implants. You lie. There is no way to hav 674 dps with a drake, not even close to it, get a clue. @op: You are a complete ******. Even after the "nerf" the myrmidon has a better tank AND more firepower AND spare medslots for mwd/sensorbooster/web/scram. Asking to nerf the drain is just plain stupid, ugly amarr face.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:05:00 - [47] Quote: we are talking about a passive, fulltanked Drake, who is the Fool? You. For talking about passive fulltanked Drakes and pvp.
Gul Rashen Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:08:00 - [48] Originally by: Gypsio III You. For talking about passive fulltanked Drakes and pvp. Hrhrhr, Kiddie This Thread is about the Ubar-tank not about fittings for max-Damage. Read it, learn and be quite. And read my posts i have not wrote, that a fulltank/passive is good in PvP.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:10:00 - [49] Originally by: Castra Noor There is no way to hav 674 dps with a drake, not even close to it, get a clue. CN Terror in T2 HAMLs + T2 Hobgoblins + 4 BCU-II + 5% RoF implant + maxskills probably not quite 674 DPS but definetely above 650. _ New character creation guide \| [CNVTF] corp recruiting \| Stacknerfs explained
VicturusTeSaluto	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:11:00 - [50] Drakes are easy to kill, bring more DPS.
Gethinlane	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:19:00 - [51] Actually a drake can produce 750 dps, if you really set it up properly. These figures are from EFT with no implants, just all skills to level 5: 7 x Heavy assault launchers with terror rage 4 x Caldrari Navy Ballistic control systems 1 x bay loading accelerator II with 5 hobgoblin II And i'm not lying, go try it for your selves
VicturusTeSaluto	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:20:00 - [52] Originally by: Gethinlane Actually a drake can produce 750 dps, if you really set it up properly. These figures are from EFT with no implants, just all skills to level 5: 7 x Heavy assault launchers with terror rage 4 x Caldrari Navy Ballistic control systems 1 x bay loading accelerator II with 5 hobgoblin II And i'm not lying, go try it for your selves Stacking.
Wikka Sub-Genius inc	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:25:00 - [53] The drake does tank well but does have some major failings 1) its speed - by god is it slow compared to other bc's 2) to tank you have to use your mids no option of armour tanking or effective tackling 3) Its only viable weapon setup are missiles - which are slow and avoidable. 4) DPS the drake can't dish as much as other bc's unless it uses kinetic misssiles and the opponents don't tank for it. Don't cry nerf just to cover over your own inadequecies, and i don't fly a drake so i'm not biased enough to be concerned about a nerf.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.10 11:54:00 - [54] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Stacking. Yes, that's WITH proper stack-nerfing. But you missed three essential things. One, he's using 4x CN-BCS (expensive as hell) not 4x BCS-IIs, since he has no chance of fiting it CPU-wise with T2s and having any tank to speak of. Two, he's using Terror Rage missiles, which kind of suck by default (not only do they have crappier range, but also worse sig/expvelo... and nerf your cap recharge to barely above half of normal, and you NEED a propulsion mod, preferably a MWD with that range). Three, that the rest of the fit is kind of... nowhere. It won't be feasable to use anytwhere except maybe a little fun on SiSi, and that's "it" (assuming you could get the fit together). _ New character creation guide \| [CNVTF] corp recruiting \| Stacknerfs explained
Dragon Lord Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:01:00 - [55] Originally by: Deathnail Really, especially with nerfing to the Myrm, drake is rediculous. Looks like Caldari are getting all the love they need - why not at least make the drake a little easier to kill without 3 people? you do realise that the Myrm can still out tank a drake using a passive shield tank, not only that, it can still outgank it as well even with the drone badwidth nerf. Hence the myrm got nerfed, anyway the drake got nerfed a few patches ago with the increase to recharge time on its shields. Anyway when you dedicate all ur rig slots, low slots and mid slots to tank you should be a dam hard nut to *****. Now if the drake to web scram and pwn ur ass while doing this, then yes its overpowered.
Raxlar Kalimar	Posted - 2007.11.10 12:11:00 - [56] In PvP the Drake is a crappy ship if you tank it. It slows the gang down it has rubbish dps and it dose not contribute anything else either. The mrym got nerfed due to it being able to passive tank and have silly damage at the same time the drake cant do this. In 1v1 against my corp mates Drake it is nearly impossible to break his tank but he sure as hell can't touch mine with his tiny DPS (Although I was in a Claymore)however as soon as he drops one mid for a scram or a web or anything that is not sheild related I can break it (Remember that the Claymore has the same DPS as a Cyclone about 400)and even though I am scramed I am far faster because the drake is such a fat ship that I could always disengage if I chose to do so.
Lin Lo	Posted - 2007.11.10 14:14:00 - [57] Drake has crap damage dealing ability with a decent tank, as it should be. A Myrm post-nerf can still out-tank and out-dps a Drake.
ASF Muskels Slackers Undercover	Posted - 2007.11.10 18:03:00 - [58] Edited by: ASF Muskels on 10/11/2007 18:03:36 I think it's fairly well balanced. It has a good tank if setup to tank, and it has decent damage (by Caldari Standards) if setup for tank/damage. It is NOT a damage dealer and never will be, but when have the Caldari really ever been damage dealers. Every race has different roles they fit into. The drake has allowed many newer players to run higher level missions without having maxed out missile/shield skills. It's not overpowered, it just fills its role very well :).
BuckStrider Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.10 18:14:00 - [59] Originally by: Kadoes Khan Drakes tank to powerful? Support the idea to change it's bonuses to 5% launcher RoF and +5% heavy and HA missile damage! :p They call those 'Nighthawks'
Solid Trust Minmatar Haven Front	Posted - 2007.11.10 18:30:00 - [60] the drake does not need a nerf. what it has going for it is offset by its failings (which is a lot). we should be banning together to stop the constant nerf. if they did not implement one nerf people would still enjoy the game. and people will continue to whine about ships no matter how many nerfs you add or don't add.
Ulstan Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.10 19:05:00 - [61] Edited by: Ulstan on 10/11/2007 19:07:31 Quote: I have taken a few drakes on my own ratting in belts in my vagabond with little to no problem other than they lived for long enough for me to reload, the fact is that a tech 1 ship shouldn't really be able to omnitank that much damage. If you're killing battlecruisers in a cruiser, and your only complaint is that killing the battlecruiser 'takes too long' it's not the battlecruiser that needs nerfing... It had no chance of realistically hurting you, trading all that away for a chance to live a little bit longer, and you're still complaining? Vagabond pilots really do want everything.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.10 19:18:00 - [62] Originally by: Zendoc With really good missile skills the drake can do alot of damage, and it still has that insane tank. The one thing that can be said about them, is you can just fly away. I was in a gang once with a huginn, vagabond, ishkur, celestis, and caracal. We stumbled upon a lone drake, and for the life of us couldn't break his tank. He kept primarying our vagabond and every time we got close to breaking his tank, the vaga had to turn on his mwd to let his shield refil some, and the damage he did with the mwd on was not nearly attiquate to break the tank, so as the vaga repaired his shield, so too did the Drake. I think its a little overboard that a drake should be able to tank that much firepower with no problem. I mean, its a tech 1 battlecruiser for crying out loud. LOL! Are you saying the damage the vaga did made the difference? * * ** *** Phear my sig! Nice hamster, but the pic is too big... and not eve related - Mindstar
Bentula	Posted - 2007.11.10 21:41:00 - [63] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 10/11/2007 19:07:31 Quote: I have taken a few drakes on my own ratting in belts in my vagabond with little to no problem other than they lived for long enough for me to reload, the fact is that a tech 1 ship shouldn't really be able to omnitank that much damage. If you're killing battlecruisers in a cruiser, and your only complaint is that killing the battlecruiser 'takes too long' it's not the battlecruiser that needs nerfing... It had no chance of realistically hurting you, trading all that away for a chance to live a little bit longer, and you're still complaining? Vagabond pilots really do want everything. The vagabond is a HAC. Repeat with me. A HAC is not a cruiser. Its perfectly fine for a pvp fitted t2 ship to kill a pve fitted t1 ship one or even two classes above it, especially if your enemy has a couple of rats on it helping you out. On the topic, the drake is annoying. If you get caught in a belt, in a pve fitting, you screwed up. You deserve to die. The whole point of nonconsensual pvp is that you die if you screw up. Sitting there saying "nanana you cant hurt me, ill go fix me a coffee and when i get back i log" does only encourage one thing, and that is blobbing. On one hand people complain that dropping carriers left right and center is the new FoTY in lowsec, and on the other hand we have t1 ships that cost less than the fitting on some HACs, that you simply cant break in a small skirmish gang in a reasonable amount of time. I dont want to shoot at a stupid drake for 5 min, especially as with the current drake its a pretty onesided fight. And i dont want to have to use overkill in form of 5vs1 every time we might encounter a drake. I dont care how much the drake sacrifices for it, it encourages bad gameplay. P.S. I support the resistance bonus on the drake getting switched to a rof or damage bonus, i dont care. Atleast it would make for more interesting fights.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.10 22:52:00 - [64] Originally by: Bentula Vagabond is a HAC and should wtfpwn everything in the game, because its PVP fitted. Bait tanks are stupid and I should be able to gank them in 30 seconds or less. Edited slightly, but that's about the gist of it. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Ulstan Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.11 00:20:00 - [65] Edited by: Ulstan on 11/11/2007 00:24:18 You know, I started out feeling fairly neutral about the whole thing - I think the drake exchanging the 5% resists for a 5% rof and 5% damage bonus sounds awesome - but the more I read of the absolutely inane and foolish whines by the people who just can't kill a drake fast enough, and the more I read of Ling's math, the more I see that actually, shield tanking, yes, even on a drake, is just fine. Quote: Its perfectly fine for a pvp fitted t2 ship to kill a pve fitted t1 ship one or even two classes above it L2R. The discussion is around the fact that the t1 ship can't touch the t2 ship of a lower class. The t2 ship is never in danger of dying and is whining that it actually takes some time to kill a ship of a higher class. What happened to the risk vs reward? Obviously that's broken. And the complete unsuitability of pve fittings for pvp is a whole separate topic, but is likewise a large failing on CCP's part. Quote: If you get caught in a belt... You deserve to die. We see what unrealistic expectations the "nerf tanking" whiners have. They want to warp in, see their hapless pve fitted prey blow up on sight, and collect the loot. Nevermind that CCP has basically seen fit to give you an auto win against pve mission runners simply by fitting for pvp, the almost riskless aspect of it isn't enough for you - you want your enemy to die eve faster, to have even less of a chance (if that is possible) than they do now. Tough. Quote: I dont want to shoot at a stupid drake for 5 min Then don't, dumbass. Just fly away? The drake didn't come looking for you, you went looking for him. If you feel that your certain victory in one or two instances just doesn't come fast enough for your impatience, feel free to fly off elsewhere. It's amusing to see gankers solemnly tell us that having ships that take more than a few seconds to gank is bad for the game. Also, in almost any MMO, when one class/ship/build starts complaining that "My foes die, but not quickly enough for my tastes" you know that not only do you turn a deaf ear to their complaints, but you investigate the whiners for possible overpowerdness.
Cautet Cold Blooded Killers	Posted - 2007.11.11 01:11:00 - [66] Edited by: Cautet on 11/11/2007 01:21:28 Was this a serious post by the OP? Even the OP must admit that the t2 cruiser the Vagabond is a better ship than a passive tanked drake - vagabonds though trade some of their damage for being totaly unkillable. A drake trades damage for being a sitting duck with a tank. Take a different HAC with you next time maybe, or a bc or bs, or less ewar. The mention of the Myrm nerf by the OP is confusing - as the passive tanked drake is not a good pvp ship, so how is this relevant to the myrm? I really feel for the devs sometimes, reading this forum.
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.11.11 02:58:00 - [67] Edited by: Matiaj on 11/11/2007 03:01:30 Replacing the 5% shield resist by a 5% damage or rof bonus would make HAM drakes stupidly overpowered. Hitting up to 15km+ without penalty and being able to switch to javelin ammo for even more range are already huge advantages over blasters/ACs. If in top of that it does more dps than blasters/ACs even at point-blank, where's the balance seriously? The Drake is fine.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.11 03:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: I dont want to shoot at a stupid drake for 5 min Then don't, dumbass. QFT.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.11 03:33:00 - [69] agreed, give the drake more gank less tank.
Eva Reedy	Posted - 2007.11.11 03:51:00 - [70] um how about giving some real examples of what exactly you think needs to be nerfed on the drake and why.incompetant pvp skills not withstanding....otherwise stfu.
Dracon Zethera	Posted - 2007.11.11 04:53:00 - [71] Drakes and ravens seem to be the only ships that show up on my killboards Yeah the drake can fit a nasty tank, but just because it can do that doesn't make it the best thing out there. I think it is still pretty balanced and I have never had a problem killing one. Of course I don't solo so I can't give input on that aspect.
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.	Posted - 2007.11.11 05:00:00 - [72] I fly only the Drake in 0.0 because it's the only decent ship I can afford to lose without feeling like an idiot and being put off the game for a while. Give it a missile velocity bonus like the Raven and I'd be happy. Maybe because I have BC level 5... hrrm. -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.11 07:18:00 - [73] I would hate for the Drake to lose 5% resists for 5% rate of fire with the kinetic bonus untouched. 5% RoF and damage though, would make for a ship worth flying.
Allestin Villimar Dark Nova Crisis	Posted - 2007.11.11 08:59:00 - [74] Don't like not being able to break a drake? Train up an amarr or gallente BS to a decent level. You should have no problems in an apoc or abaddon breaking a drake, and there's a corp mate of mine who flies a t2 fitted hyp that can easily break my drake with faction resists and all tanking skills at 5 except BC. He doesn't even need to use his drones. The only ways I could possibly improve my tank would be to get 5% implants and BC to 5. Even then, with that he'd probably just have to pull out his drones. If you devote an equal amount of time training up damage that I have to my tank, you should be able to break it, because I know others who can that have spent less. Yes, drakes have a nasty tank. If they're omni-tanked, they can't scramble you, and you should be able to get away before they bring you down. If they're scrambling you, then they've got a pretty big resist hole you should be able to exploit. ...in bed.
RisingDragon	Posted - 2007.11.11 11:23:00 - [75] There is nothing wrong with the drake as is, yes its tank can be made to be insane but at the price of tackling and dps but more importantly cap. If your gang has to run or chase in pvp, you can garuantee that within a small amount of jumps, the drake wont be able to recharge its cap enough to jump across a system and will fall behind. Besides if it didnt have its tank, it would have nothing going for it
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.11 12:56:00 - [76] Swapping the hardener bonus for a 5% ROF bonus would make the Drake capable of doing a hilarious 821 DPS, with T2 HAMs, 3x BCS II and drones. That's before imp ants, as well. It would have a tank of pure lol, though...
Allestin Villimar Dark Nova Crisis	Posted - 2007.11.11 15:34:00 - [77] Mm, battleship damage or battleship tank? Decisions decisions.... ...in bed.
Krystyn Caldari Serenity Rising LLC	Posted - 2007.11.11 16:14:00 - [78] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 10/11/2007 08:04:35 An All Out Tank Drake with all 5's: 7 HML II, <empty slot> 3x LSE II, 2x Invuln II, SR II 4x SPR II 3x CDFP I 16680 HP, 152 recharge (Peak = 262 HP/sec) Tankable vs various ammo types: EM: 677 Thermal: 846 Kinetic: 1128 Explosive: 1691 Void: 967 Null: 954 Antimatter: 990 Hail: 1528 Barrage: 1378 EMP: 954 PP: 890 Fusion: 1538 Sabot: 1269 Depleted Uranium: 1177 Proton: 877 Nuclear: 1480 Carbonized Lead: 1353 Quake: 1435 Scorch: 702 Ion-AM-5x Heavy Myrm: 890 Scorch Harbinger w/5 Hammer II -> 740 Barrage Hurricane w/5x Hob II -> 1058 Kin Drake w/Hobs -> 1043 7 Neutron-AM 5x Hammer II Brutix: 893 Barrage Cyclone: 1029 Serpentis damage layout: 940 Guristas damage layout: 1083 Sentry gun damage layout: 967 You should have used PP, and a plate Harbinger could take it out solo, I'm reasonably sure. Liang Ed: Superfluous reference and ridiculous whitespace at the end. Hmm your setup is very similar to mine... although I have shield hardener rigs on mine in stead of the recharger rigs, but then again i have SR IIs where your in invulnIIs are. The Drake's sick tank is just that its a ship that is very conducive to passive tanking, so if you have good skills and all tech 2 or better gear its going to take a lot of DPS to break. Now that drake that whole gang couldn't kill might have had some gistii or pithii shield booster with an even better tank than some of us mentioned we fly with I could understand
joshmorris Ravenous Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.11 18:46:00 - [79] Drake is overpowered imo, i know it doesnt do as much damage as the other tier 2 bc (until teh nerf) BUT it can tank to where it will slowly take out oppontents ( I know it cant tackle but if it has friends like the 3-5 people trying to break its tank it pwns) I mean myrmidon can now never kill a drake solo. Doesnt have enough damage, No way of defending its main damage dealer (drones) because sensor damps are getting nerfed. Basically myrmidon is now like a drake with prolly the same damage but alot less tank. Drake deals good damage and tanks amazing(even with 1 point). Harbinger ... well ive never seen 1 in pvp. Hurricane ... deals wicked damage , good solo ship, cant tank that well. Oh and all can be jammed and do like hardly any damage but drakes can use fofs. But yeah, tweak the drake a lil ... maybe take away its tanking bonus for a lil damage bonus ( So it cant tank a fully gank deimos anymore ) So yeah not a nerf (we all hate them) more of a tweak. Uber idea solves all !!
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:16:00 - [80] The Drake's tank is the only real redeeming factor. Those who complain about it are usually forgetting that it's useless for doing anything else. ---
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:23:00 - [81] Edited by: Matiaj on 11/11/2007 19:26:25 Originally by: joshmorris it can tank to where it will slowly take out oppontents ( I know it cant tackle but if it has friends like the 3-5 people trying to break its tank it pwns) Why are the 3-5 people stupidly trying to break the Drake's tank, instead of pwning his friends and then leaving? It's not like the passive Drake's huge dps and awesome ewar capabilities are going to prevent them from doing so.
Bentula	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:34:00 - [82] Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 11/11/2007 00:24:18 You know, I started out feeling fairly neutral about the whole thing - I think the drake exchanging the 5% resists for a 5% rof and 5% damage bonus sounds awesome - but the more I read of the absolutely inane and foolish whines by the people who just can't kill a drake fast enough, and the more I read of Ling's math, the more I see that actually, shield tanking, yes, even on a drake, is just fine. Quote: Its perfectly fine for a pvp fitted t2 ship to kill a pve fitted t1 ship one or even two classes above it L2R. The discussion is around the fact that the t1 ship can't touch the t2 ship of a lower class. The t2 ship is never in danger of dying and is whining that it actually takes some time to kill a ship of a higher class. What happened to the risk vs reward? Obviously that's broken. And the complete unsuitability of pve fittings for pvp is a whole separate topic, but is likewise a large failing on CCP's part. Quote: If you get caught in a belt... You deserve to die. We see what unrealistic expectations the "nerf tanking" whiners have. They want to warp in, see their hapless pve fitted prey blow up on sight, and collect the loot. Nevermind that CCP has basically seen fit to give you an auto win against pve mission runners simply by fitting for pvp, the almost riskless aspect of it isn't enough for you - you want your enemy to die eve faster, to have even less of a chance (if that is possible) than they do now. Tough. Quote: I dont want to shoot at a stupid drake for 5 min Then don't, dumbass. Just fly away? The drake didn't come looking for you, you went looking for him. If you feel that your certain victory in one or two instances just doesn't come fast enough for your impatience, feel free to fly off elsewhere. It's amusing to see gankers solemnly tell us that having ships that take more than a few seconds to gank is bad for the game. Also, in almost any MMO, when one class/ship/build starts complaining that "My foes die, but not quickly enough for my tastes" you know that not only do you turn a deaf ear to their complaints, but you investigate the whiners for possible overpowerdness. 1. Your insulting, and for that dumbass comment ill report you. 2. Dont quote only halve a sentence to make your arguments look better. That only proves that had you quoted it whole and not out of context it would weaken your argument. 3. I practice what i preach. When i screw up, i dont cry like a baby but accept its my own fault. If your alone, in a belt, and get catched by a ship you cant outrun or kill, you lost, double so if your in a mining or ratting setup. His friends will arrive and kill you if he cant do it alone. If they dont, you either where not unprepared, ir had some incredible, incredible luck. This whole nonsense about the evil pkers killing the poor carebears is fairly stupid. I have zero problem with using passive tanks as bait or in pvp setups, cause when i fall for a bait it means I have screwed up and deserve to die and in pvp setups you pay a price for using passive tanks. But if you want to tell me that it makes sense for a passive tanked BC to tank better than a passive tanked BS, that sacrifices just as much, makes somehow sense i disagree. Why dont we get a cruiser that tanks even better than that BC? And a frigate that tanks even better than that cruiser again, sounds good? P.S. Most experience pilots would kill to trade a tanking bonus for a rof bonus on ANY ship, yet people behave as if i would advocate nerfing the drake to uselessness. Thats far from what i want, i want more fun for ALL involved, and that includes drake pilots no matter wether they fit for pve or pvp.
Matiaj	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:41:00 - [83] Edited by: Matiaj on 11/11/2007 19:45:13 Originally by: Bentula But if you want to tell me that it makes sense for a passive tanked BC to tank better than a passive tanked BS, that sacrifices just as much, makes somehow sense i disagree. Why dont we get a cruiser that tanks even better than that BC? And a frigate that tanks even better than that cruiser again, sounds good? Yep, sounds good. They would be totally useless anyway. What's the problem? 4 regular ships + 1 passive tanking frigate of doom vs 5 regular ships Guess who wins.
Karentaki Gallente federation navy taskforce	Posted - 2007.11.11 19:54:00 - [84] Drakes are NOT overpowered - admittedly, it's a bit annoying that a HAC takes several minutes to kill one, but the DPS on a drake is terrible compared to a similarly expensively fitted myrmidon (pre nerf) or any other BC for that matter. If you spend 20-30 mill on a T2 fitting for a BC that can do nothing but tank, then you deserve to get a very good tank for your money. Seriously, before you complain about ships being overpowered and cry for a nerf, try flying a drake in PvP - I'm pretty sure you won't be able to kill any other BC out there, and the fight will end in a stalemate. If you call that overpowered, can I PLEASE have your stuff ======================= Originally by: Tarminic OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!
Bentula	Posted - 2007.11.11 20:04:00 - [85] Originally by: Matiaj Edited by: Matiaj on 11/11/2007 19:49:19 Originally by: Bentula But if you want to tell me that it makes sense for a passive tanked BC to tank better than a passive tanked BS, that sacrifices just as much, makes somehow sense i disagree. Why dont we get a cruiser that tanks even better than that BC? And a frigate that tanks even better than that cruiser again, sounds good? Yep, sounds good. They would be totally useless anyway. What's the problem? 4 regular ships + 1 passive tanking frigate of doom vs 5 regular ships Guess who wins. Edit : Actually, the 4+1 gang might win. After reading the thread I'm inclined to believe that most pilots would actually focus fire the tanking frig while getting destroyed by the rest. Ok, lets just think a second about why such a frig doesnt already exist. I thought about 5 sec and i came up with: 1. Nearly indestructible disposable cynoships, good luck killing something that outtanks a drake with smartbombs. Might aswell have cynoships become completly invulnurable while opening a field. 2. Doing even the hardest pve encounters with two ships easy, one alt in this frig the other in a gankbs. Guess who warps in first. 3. Promotes logging off. Do so before they manage to agress you and they cant kill you in time. Am i the only one seeing a problem with encouraging people to use logging off as a valid INGAME tactic? 4. If your an awesome tank with all slots dedicated, you can still be a damn good one with two slots less. Low sig + good tank = tackler of doom. Ok i admit i thought more than 5 sec about it, and i probably could go on. Point is just because you can think of one situation where a ship or setup isnt a problem doesnt mean that there are no problems at all. The usefulness of a ship isnt defined by its offensive value alone, there is a world of balancing considerations that have nothing at all to do with how much damage something does. P.S. Just noticed that i developed a hang of numerating my arguments, actually i dislike people who do that ... you bring out the worst in me .
Rawr Cristina Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.11 20:51:00 - [86] You can only armour tank with Low slots though. Passive Shield tanks will use up both Low AND Medium slots, leaving nothing for... well, anything really You can still MWD and Tackle with a decent Armour Tank. You can still fit Damage Mods with a decent (active) Shield tank. Sadly with a passive shield tank you can do neither without it sucking -----
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.11 21:05:00 - [87] Quote: try flying a drake in PvP - I'm pretty sure you won't be able to kill any other BC out there Hehe. The poor Hurricane pilot I killed earlier did seem rather surprised...

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