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Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.14 01:40:00 - [91] I'm only in high sec cause I don't play well with others makes it hard to survive in a big alliance Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 EDIT You know what, Tortun has this one under control...* *Basks in the chaos of this thread
Phantom Slave Amarr Mozzaki United	Posted - 2007.11.14 03:36:00 - [92] Not sure if it's been said, but here's my take on everything. CCP is adding more stuff to low-sec and 0.0 to make it more attractive to hi-sec players. The more stuff you add down there, the more likely people will venture there. But hi-sec players aren't being completely shafted. Alot of them are PvE, and there are a ton of new missions being added. ____________________ Changes on Sisi are NOT the end of the world. Wait until Rev III/Trinity is released before drawing conclusions.
Arc Anna Caldari Pacific Starfleet Command	Posted - 2007.11.14 04:41:00 - [93] For all the thronging unwashed masses braying for blood when arena PvP is mentioned, the same unwashed masses sure seem awfully excited when Alliance Tournaments occur; essentially the very same arena PvP with very artificial and set rules that they are whining not to have.
Snowcrash Winterheart2	Posted - 2007.11.14 05:43:00 - [94] Originally by: Arc Anna For all the thronging unwashed masses braying for blood when arena PvP is mentioned, the same unwashed masses sure seem awfully excited when Alliance Tournaments occur; essentially the very same arena PvP with very artificial and set rules that they are whining not to have. Seems to be that way. Still each to their own. Personally I think arena PvP that's consensual and has rules would be a good PvPlite for people to get a feel for it; you know strap some stabilizers to the ship and "Ohh... that's what this thing I've looted zillions of times actually does... COOL! <insert pew pew>". A lot of peoples first experience of PvP in EVE is pretty much pew pew BOOM. It's a rather one sided affair. Which if you're not used to a MMO is a real shock that yes... people (via your trusted computer) do want to hurt you... quite badly in some cases :) At this point if they really are a carebear the account goes inactive and that's it. Yes, such people do... unfortunately exist. Dunno how you'd go about instigating an automated arena system, but I'm sure someone smarter than me could dream up a way. It'd allow people to get used to that aspect of EVE and either learn how to leg it or learn how to be really evil :)
Clinically Gallente Cold-Fury Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.14 05:57:00 - [95] Carebears humph! May they continue to suffer in silence
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc	Posted - 2007.11.14 06:09:00 - [96] There are 3 kinds of lies in the world: Lies, damned lies, and statistics. That being said, on to the Arena bit: "Arena" combat could be as simple as ending up in the same grid as a potential combatant and right-click 'Want to fight' option. The challenged pilot gets to accept, decline, or say go away (mute). If accepted, both parties are flagged to each other (and not the whole corp) and CONCORD kicks back with another dozen donuts and watches the show. If declined, no free pew-pew, and a cooldown timer of some sort should be in place to keep some idiot from spamming the same person with challenges. I figure the "Arena" option beats throwing out a can with 1 round of ammo and waiting for some chump to steal it. (and getting irritated when the only people taking from the can instantly warp out) _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Jonny Chimpo Chimpo Holding	Posted - 2007.11.14 07:20:00 - [97] Originally by: Cookie Muncher I thought the game was meant to involve risk vs reward, what the hell happened to that philosophy? Theres low risk and high rewards in 0.5 to 1.0. Incredibly high risk and low reward in 0.1 to 0.4. And Moderate risk and Decent rewards in 0.0. They need to sort the risk vs reward stuff out first, its pretty stupid to say the least at the moment. Yes but I'm here now and you didn't factor that in Non-consensual is the only way for me Originally by: Ancient Pistol ----------------------------------------------- At the end of the day, your smacktalking @ss is still nothing but a flying me
Jonny Chimpo Chimpo Holding	Posted - 2007.11.14 07:26:00 - [98] Originally by: Danzig256k Originally by: Curzon Dax Well, the link I just posted in my OP is how I suggest we get the other 78% of the population to engage in PvP. =) i think some folks just aren't interested in it. dunno about other folks but i put in a full week at work, i don't really feel like working the rest of the week to replace boats and regain sec status after a day of popping indy's in hork. well that's my 2 isk worth. And thats why the empire pirates are here to bring PvP to you Non-consensual is the only way for me Originally by: Ancient Pistol ----------------------------------------------- At the end of the day, your smacktalking @ss is still nothing but a flying me
Golden Helmet Caldari Finite Horizon Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2007.11.14 07:26:00 - [99] Originally by: Curzon Dax PvE content is more fun and invigorating. Good joke PvE absolutely SUCKS. I have a mission running alt, I've done my share of roid touching, and I've grinded my sec from -10 to -1.9 through 0.0 NPC'ing. I know how PvE is, "fun and invigorating" isn't it. It's a torture I wouldn't wish on the worst of our RL scum. All it's good for is making money for PvP toys. [/PvE rant mode off] (hey, at least I use my main)
Jenna Shame	Posted - 2007.11.14 07:36:00 - [100] What % of 'safe space' are 0.0 empire alts
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2007.11.14 08:43:00 - [101] Please, heavens. No arenas. I implore you. Say no to knee-jerk additions and nerfs, mmkay?
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.11.14 08:46:00 - [102] Originally by: Curzon Dax Edited by: Curzon Dax on 13/11/2007 09:06:48 Latest Dev blog here. So...9% of players live in 0.0 and 13% of players live in lowsec. Lets take a HUGE leap of faulty assumption and presume that not a single one of them are carebears. That means that 78% of all the players in Eve are PvE oriented, and live in highsec. The various other statistics go quite some distance in confirming it. Now...lets look at nerfs, patches, improvements, the rare buffs (which are really nerfs to other things)..... Virtually all of these things are aimed at the 0.0 players. Some of them apply to the lowsec players. Why is it that 99% of the content released / changed in Eve caters to the absolute smallest minority of players? If more than 3/4 of all players in Eve are PvE focused, shouldn't we get more things to focus on the majority of players? Granted - the particular minority that we're speaking of are the absolute loudest, most vocal minority in Eve....but still the minority. The statisticians at CCP have spoken. The majority of Eve thinks that the PvP system we currently have absolutely blows and that PvE content is more fun and invigorating. /discuss. EDIT I had a thread HERE some time ago suggesting that arena combat is a necessity in Eve because of the disfavor that the bulk of the customers in Eve view the current system with. I should think that it just got a whole lot more relevant. Yeah, dude, I actually agree with you. I find it very hard to sympathize with the poor 0.0 alliances and their "nerfed" carriers tbh. -Karl
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.11.14 08:48:00 - [103] Originally by: Hamatitio 433k characters, 225k have less than 1 million skillpoints. thats probably 50% of that 78% 'majority' that are total noobs. I'd say your point is void :) Bull***. Have you ever been* to hi-sec? Have you ever flown through low-sec on your way to your 0.0 region. Try again. Practically every hi-sec system I fly through (with my alt who lives in low-sec btw) has more than 50 people in system. -Karl
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.14 08:52:00 - [104] Most high sec systems I fly through have less than 10 people in it... and yeah, that's in caldari space. Mission hubs have 50 and more, as do the system close to jita, but apart from it... -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
cal nereus Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.14 08:57:00 - [105] I don't want to put words in Curzon's mouth, but from what I gather his style of play is, as opposed to Player-vs-Player, co-operative (multi)player-vs-environment combined with economic player-vs-player in a controlled setting. There are rules, but you can still have a huge impact on the world you're playing in. I'll admit, this style of play has its attractions, and before I started playing Eve Online I was playing co-operative multiplayer-vs-environment or just solo player-vs-environment games. However, on Eve Online, I've found multiplayer-vs-multiplayer (gang/fleet PvP), especially in 0.0, to be more invigorating than anything else in Eve Online. PvE is an isk-earning grind that I wouldn't participate in if it wasn't necessary to fund my PvP interests. And notice, I'm in an NPC corp. I'm living in high-sec. I was probably counted as one of the 78% of characters there. But I can assure you: I'm an 0.0 player. I care more about 0.0 than I do about empire, even if I happen to live in empire at the moment. And I'm sure there are a lot of characters that agree with me. --- Join BH-DL Skills
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.11.14 09:01:00 - [106] Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Hamatitio 433k characters, 225k have less than 1 million skillpoints. thats probably 50% of that 78% 'majority' that are total noobs. I'd say your point is void :) Bull***. Have you ever been* to hi-sec? Have you ever flown through low-sec on your way to your 0.0 region. Try again. Practically every hi-sec system I fly through (with my alt who lives in low-sec btw) has more than 50 people in system. -Karl That's pretty accurate actually... and if you looked at the snapshot of what ships people were docked in during downtime that Devs so kindly put in the Quarterly report (They did say it won't be completely accurate) 150,000+ rookie ships/capsules docked 44,000+ shuttles Not going to argue it... yes there is a higher population in high-sec, and my alt is contributing to it. Even so, I think lowsec/0.0 need more to attract players... I can only show so much leg through the window of my rifter of doom ____________________ Hi. I'm not an alt :)
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.14 10:48:00 - [107] Edited by: Andrue on 14/11/2007 10:54:22 Edited by: Andrue on 14/11/2007 10:52:01 Originally by: cal nereus I'll admit, this style of play has its attractions, and before I started playing Eve Online I was playing co-operative multiplayer-vs-environment or just solo player-vs-environment games. However, on Eve Online, I've found multiplayer-vs-multiplayer (gang/fleet PvP), especially in 0.0, to be more invigorating than anything else in Eve Online. PvE is an isk-earning grind that I wouldn't participate in if it wasn't necessary to fund my PvP interests. That's true but what a lot of the combat PvP crowd don't seem able to grasp/understand is that not all of the playerbase wants to be invigorated. Quite a lot of us have stressful or at least tiring jobs in real-life. We don't want to be invigorated by anything (except our wives and/or girlfriends if they are feeling frisky ). What I want is something that isn't quite so brain-numbing as watching TV and yet not so distracting as reading a book. Running misssions, diddling around on the market and chatting are relaxing and often a nice way to wind down after a day at the office. After an hour or two of that I'm happy to slump down in front of the television for a couple of hours then go to bed. This topic has come up many times in the 3.5+ years I've been playing Eve and it has been pointed out many times. If CCP were to somehow force people out of Empire they would alienate a significant number of the playerbase. Worse still they would alienate the 'light users' leaving only those that stress the server the most. Always remember:Eve is a game. No one can force anyone to do anything that they don't like. They will just cancel their account and go elsewhere. Thankfully CCP have indicated on several occasions that they are aware of this demographic and have absolutely no intention of nerfing Empire or doing anything else that would make it unnattractive. They hope that people will choose the more exciting and rewarding experience offered by low- and no- security systems but they accept that a lot of people are not interested. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Jack Target Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.14 11:52:00 - [108] I go to 0.0 to have my fun, the rest of the week I hang out in Jita 4-4 with my +5 implants and buy and sell stuff. I don't suppose I'm the only one doing this.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.14 12:10:00 - [109] Originally by: Curzon Dax For everyone pointing out that it was a snapshot, or that it Empire mostly consists of alts, or referencing your main on lowsec / 0.0 and your army of highsec alts... 1. The only stats we have to work with are the ones that CCP just provided. Deal with it. 2. As a previous poster said, regardless of what you think the "actual" numbers might be, I'm more right than you are. Open your map, display by number of people currently in space, or docked and active. You'll see a tremendous amount in Empire, and a very few number in lowsec and 0.0. The truth is that the majority of players...that's right, based both on what the map says at any given moment on any given day without fail...and what CCP has statistically offered us as redundancy to what the map says...most players are carebears in Empire. Now, a thought on the arena bit: I want PvP, and I'm not going to engage in a fleet blobbing lagfest, a gatecamp, or a roaming gang looking for a gank. That pretty much rules out 0.0 and lowsec. I'm left with can-flagging in Empire. Adding an arena system in there where people are free to flag to each other and kill each other without fear of interference is not creating an artificial boundary, its removing one. Its removing the idea that people who want to fight each other can't take the gloves off and duke it out whenever they want in private. Remove the restriction, let us freely PvP each other in highsec without needing to can flag. I've highlighted your unsupported assumption. You are conflating "in empire" with "carebear player" despite having shown no evidence to support this at all. On the other hand, you've been given plenty of evidence that the average 0.0 player has multiple empire characters. I have 3, for instance, and I suspect that's below average. There are players I know who have 12 R&D alts to support 2 0.0 characters. I'm guessing that the normal ratio is at least 2:1, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher. Furthermore, you also haven't shown any evidence that such empire carebears as there are want arena combat; you've only said that you think they should. (Mine certainly don't: two just want a nice trade hub to sit in and a ready supply of T2 Expanders, and the other is content with a supply of Slashers and T1 MWDs.) CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Arc Anna Caldari Pacific Starfleet Command	Posted - 2007.11.14 12:37:00 - [110] Even if the ratio of 0.0 to empire alts is 2:1 (which I really doubt), the numbers are still staggeringly in favour of empire. Hell, I'll give you 3:1, for every 1 alt in 0.0, there's 3 support alts in empire. That's still 51% of the population in Empire, still the majority. Seems to me 0.0 folks are in denial of the numbers and choose to see it their way, regardless. Threads like these reinforce the Online Forum Dictum: The Minority Whine The Loudest.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.14 16:18:00 - [111] Originally by: Arc Anna Even if the ratio of 0.0 to empire alts is 2:1 (which I really doubt), the numbers are still staggeringly in favour of empire. Hell, I'll give you 3:1, for every 1 alt in 0.0, there's 3 support alts in empire. That's still 51% of the population in Empire, still the majority. Seems to me 0.0 folks are in denial of the numbers and choose to see it their way, regardless. Threads like these reinforce the Online Forum Dictum: The Minority Whine The Loudest. I certainly agree with the last sentence. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.14 16:18:00 - [112] Originally by: Arc Anna Even if the ratio of 0.0 to empire alts is 2:1 (which I really doubt), the numbers are still staggeringly in favour of empire. Hell, I'll give you 3:1, for every 1 alt in 0.0, there's 3 support alts in empire. That's still 51% of the population in Empire, still the majority. Seems to me 0.0 folks are in denial of the numbers and choose to see it their way, regardless. Threads like these reinforce the Online Forum Dictum: The Minority Whine The Loudest. BTW don't forget to count the people in lo-sec as well. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:41:00 - [113] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Most high sec systems I fly through have less than 10 people in it... and yeah, that's in caldari space. What, are you specifically avoiding populated systems just so you can say that? Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Mission hubs have 50 and more, as do the system close to jita, but apart from it... 50 and more? Try at least 100. For the bigger ones, 50+ for less popular ones. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Tao Han Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:54:00 - [114] I choose not to move to 0.0, even if I have spent a lot of my time there. It is my choice to stay in highsec
Eventy One	Posted - 2007.11.14 18:57:00 - [115] On the very first line this thread starts with this link which points to devblog that introduces the stats. One of the posters in that thread makes this point: Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon First, I believe the characters with less than 1 million SP should be considered outliers. So many people have alts that are in Jita, or for scouting, or simply out of the box market alts that sit on the same account as their main character (I'm guilty here, too) Of course the guy who gave us the stats agreed, CCP Dr.EyjoG. Even if we treat the alts etc as outliers and normalized these stats against accounts, rather than characters, I think Curzon Dax's point, that the PvE players don't wield nearly the influence as the very vocal, and sometimes inarticulate minority, as we can see in this very thread. This is, of course, debatable, but even normalized against accounts, I suspect the majority DO hang in empire for a few simple reasons: 1. The market is most advanced there 2. Historically people in society favour law over lawlessness 3. I know from my own experience, that though spend a great deal of time in 0.0, I am unable to completely sever my ties to empire (and of course do have an alt there that I do use for PvE) Given that, I think that the original point - that CCP favours the wrong crowd - is exactly right, like it or not. It doesn't matter if Curzon Dax can't present a list of 100 things that need to be fixed in high sec, or changes, identifying fixable items is CCP's job for they see all user feedback, and not just one person's pet ideas. Similarly it doesn't matter if 50% of the empire based players are newbs. Newbs, pay money to play, and their experiences, if substantial numerically, should be catered to the same as anyone else. If you successfully improve the playing experience of newbs, your obviously going to have more long-term players down the road. I sign and support the argument made in this post because I think it has merit, and I think the originally poster used CCP's own metrics to make his case. /sign
Faye Valerii Caldari Exeunt Omnes	Posted - 2007.11.14 19:00:00 - [116] Edited by: Faye Valerii on 14/11/2007 19:02:26 I'd say 90% of the chars below 1mil sp are just scouting alts, abandoned experiments, facegen dolls, market spotters, spy alts etc ... Even a trial player will pass 1mil sp before the trial runs out : ) ps : not to mention forum flame alts and empire alts
Eventy One	Posted - 2007.11.14 19:06:00 - [117] Originally by: Faye Valerii I'd say 90% of the chars below 1mil sp are just scouting alts, abandoned experiments, facegen dolls, market spotters, spy alts etc ... Even a trial player will pass 1mil sp before the trial runs out : ) This is conjecture of course. If they release the stats normalized against account rather than players, your conjecture will either be verified or disproved. I don't think it matters what the composition of characters with less than 1M skill points is because newbs or alts, they are clearly engaged in game-play as evidenced by the stats that show ship losses. After the less than 1M SPS category is the next largest category (10-20M sps) and trend is also evidenced in the Ship losses category (look at the volumes of Ravens that are lost for example). Cheers Eventy One
Faye Valerii Caldari Exeunt Omnes	Posted - 2007.11.14 19:08:00 - [118] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Karlemgne Originally by: Hamatitio 433k characters, 225k have less than 1 million skillpoints. thats probably 50% of that 78% 'majority' that are total noobs. I'd say your point is void :) Bull***. Have you ever been* to hi-sec? Have you ever flown through low-sec on your way to your 0.0 region. Try again. Practically every hi-sec system I fly through (with my alt who lives in low-sec btw) has more than 50 people in system. -Karl That's pretty accurate actually... and if you looked at the snapshot of what ships people were docked in during downtime that Devs so kindly put in the Quarterly report (They did say it won't be completely accurate) 150,000+ rookie ships/capsules docked 44,000+ shuttles Not going to argue it... yes there is a higher population in high-sec, and my alt is contributing to it. Even so, I think lowsec/0.0 need more to attract players... I can only show so much leg through the window of my rifter of doom Not really an argument. I have dozens of shuttles and AB/MWD frigs docked in random parts of empire, and I suspect I'm not the only one. Makes it easier to get around.
Faye Valerii Caldari Exeunt Omnes	Posted - 2007.11.14 19:12:00 - [119] Edited by: Faye Valerii on 14/11/2007 19:14:36 Originally by: Eventy One Originally by: Faye Valerii I'd say 90% of the chars below 1mil sp are just scouting alts, abandoned experiments, facegen dolls, market spotters, spy alts etc ... Even a trial player will pass 1mil sp before the trial runs out : ) This is conjecture of course. If they release the stats normalized against account rather than players, your conjecture will either be verified or disproved. I don't think it matters what the composition of characters with less than 1M skill points is because newbs or alts, they are clearly engaged in game-play as evidenced by the stats that show ship losses. After the less than 1M SPS category is the next largest category (10-20M sps) and trend is also evidenced in the Ship losses category (look at the volumes of Ravens that are lost for example). Cheers Eventy One Good point. But let's not forget that about 10% of logged on accounts at any time are trials (proven by stats). So logically only 10% of characters should come from trials. Trials start with 800k sp, so they'd be up to 1mil in less than two weeks. So, the vast majority of -1mil sp chars HAVE to be the kind of alts I mentioned. Cause new players get above 1mil so quickly, and only 10% of all online players are trials, and you HAVE to be a trial to have less than 1mil sp, if you're actively training skills. If you're not actively training skills you're the kind of alt I mentioned. edit : the 10% is from memory, it could be 15% but certainly not more than that.
Eventy One	Posted - 2007.11.14 19:21:00 - [120] Edited by: Eventy One on 14/11/2007 19:24:55 Originally by: Faye Valerii If you're not actively training skills you're the kind of alt I mentioned. You can't actively train skills on multiple characters, without getting more than one account - remember? Each account may only have one character training at a time. It doesn't really matter why the largest category of empire based characters has less than 1M sps because CCP's policy helps makes it so. (... and I suspect they know this ..) Cheers Eventy One

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