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![Endless Subversion Endless Subversion](https://images.evetech.net/characters/400900213/portrait?size=64)
Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2007.11.20 03:12:00 -
[1]
I fly drone boats in small gangs for a large percentage of my time in eve. Thus, I've been following this upcoming scoop nerf with some interest.
Light and especially medium drones are pretty fragile in their current state. This lack of effective HP is even more noticable when you are in something like a curse, where you're orbitting at anywhere from 20-30km and thus have quite a large amount of travel time on your drones before they can enter scoop range. Webs make this even worse.
I've thought for awhile now that the Drone Durability skill was a weak skill, a rank 5 skill that grants only 5% shields/armor/structure. It seems like we could kill two birds with one stone with a buff to the drone durabilty skill, something like an extra 5% per level, bringing the total to 10% per level of this skill.
Additionally the drone racial specializations granting a shield/armor/structure bonus to drones that use their skill would help too, even if it were only the same 2% bonus as the damage option. This would encourage people to train the specialization skill for more than just the level needed to field the right size of the tech II variant.
Not sure if this forum or the development forum is a better spot, but I really feel drone hp needs a look after the proposed sisi change.
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![William Darkk William Darkk](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1706388484/portrait?size=64)
William Darkk
Gallente Vengeance of the Fallen Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.20 03:46:00 -
[2]
I like this idea. Drone Durability really could use a buff. -------------------------------------------------- <3 my Drones |
![Enigma Crysis Enigma Crysis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/110362347/portrait?size=64)
Enigma Crysis
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Posted - 2007.11.20 10:35:00 -
[3]
the drones didnt get an hp-boost anyway like the ships did get last year with rev2, did they? ![Question](/images/icon_question.gif)
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![OneSock OneSock](https://images.evetech.net/characters/888083100/portrait?size=64)
OneSock
Crown Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.20 14:13:00 -
[4]
/signed.
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![Endless Subversion Endless Subversion](https://images.evetech.net/characters/400900213/portrait?size=64)
Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2007.11.20 15:33:00 -
[5]
Anymore input?
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![Lord DarkStar Lord DarkStar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/784477709/portrait?size=64)
Lord DarkStar
Gallente Mobile Alcohol Processing Units United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.20 15:41:00 -
[6]
no drones didnt get any boost, /signed
We of the Unicorn clan are the best horsemen in the land,our horses are our lives and brothers,we fight as one,we live as one,we die as one. |
![Riot Vulture Riot Vulture](https://images.evetech.net/characters/809277378/portrait?size=64)
Riot Vulture
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Posted - 2007.11.20 15:54:00 -
[7]
yup really good idea !! Atm Drone durability is a useless skill
/signed
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![Eka Maladay Eka Maladay](https://images.evetech.net/characters/363222001/portrait?size=64)
Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.11.20 19:19:00 -
[8]
I would love to have 10% instead of 5%. Trying to use drone in sisi last night, they seem to have become very expensive ammo.
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![Ashina Sito Ashina Sito](https://images.evetech.net/characters/146026249/portrait?size=64)
Ashina Sito
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:19:00 -
[9]
For reasons all ready stated above I would have to agree with this. So for the first time ever...
/signed
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![Arcord Arcord](https://images.evetech.net/characters/789019204/portrait?size=64)
Arcord
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:26:00 -
[10]
good idea
signed
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![Ezekiel Sulastin Ezekiel Sulastin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/921066941/portrait?size=64)
Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente Eve University
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:02:00 -
[11]
You all know as much as I do that CCP would be more likely to REDUCE drone HP to further their ideal of multiple waves and general drone nerfage ;)
Still, /signed
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![Endless Subversion Endless Subversion](https://images.evetech.net/characters/400900213/portrait?size=64)
Endless Subversion
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Posted - 2007.11.22 22:24:00 -
[12]
i'd like this to stay near the top!
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![Hanno Mir Hanno Mir](https://images.evetech.net/characters/729372016/portrait?size=64)
Hanno Mir
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Posted - 2007.11.22 22:33:00 -
[13]
I dont have much to say on the matter but I do agree, I might say more later.
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![Stakhanov Stakhanov](https://images.evetech.net/characters/448803936/portrait?size=64)
Stakhanov
The Good Fellas
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Posted - 2007.11.22 22:39:00 -
[14]
I think drones should have a smaller sig radius instead. Does an Ogre drone look like a cruiser ? Yet it has a 100m sig radius. It is total nonsense that torps can kill drones that easy. Drones should be mostly vulnerable to frigate weapons and smartbombs.
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![Bellum Eternus Bellum Eternus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/681066876/portrait?size=64)
Bellum Eternus
Gallente Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2007.11.22 22:41:00 -
[15]
/signed
Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
![Rocka Stargirl Rocka Stargirl](https://images.evetech.net/characters/132087039/portrait?size=64)
Rocka Stargirl
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Posted - 2007.11.22 23:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Stakhanov I think drones should have a smaller sig radius instead. Does an Ogre drone look like a cruiser ? Yet it has a 100m sig radius. It is total nonsense that torps can kill drones that easy. Drones should be mostly vulnerable to frigate weapons and smartbombs.
This is the better idea. --- We do what we must, because we can. |
![FawKa FawKa](https://images.evetech.net/characters/178969427/portrait?size=64)
FawKa
Gallente x13
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Posted - 2007.11.23 00:13:00 -
[17]
Edited by: FawKa on 23/11/2007 00:13:12
Originally by: Rocka Stargirl
Originally by: Stakhanov I think drones should have a smaller sig radius instead. Does an Ogre drone look like a cruiser ? Yet it has a 100m sig radius. It is total nonsense that torps can kill drones that easy. Drones should be mostly vulnerable to frigate weapons and smartbombs.
This is the better idea.
I agree
Oh, and make drone dmg mods now you are at it CCP
edit: lovely spelling at 1 am ![Laughing](/images/icon_lol.gif)
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![Razin Razin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/145766552/portrait?size=64)
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2007.11.23 03:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Stakhanov I think drones should have a smaller sig radius instead. Does an Ogre drone look like a cruiser ? Yet it has a 100m sig radius. It is total nonsense that torps can kill drones that easy. Drones should be mostly vulnerable to frigate weapons and smartbombs.
Either this or the OP's idea. Or both, since both make good sense. It's the least that can be done to somewhat offset the upcoming drone nerfing. ...
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![Samurai XII Samurai XII](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1679337163/portrait?size=64)
Samurai XII
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Posted - 2007.11.23 04:08:00 -
[19]
/Signed
Oh and fighters should have a reduce sig... not normal to have a Battleship *****a 20 mil fighter in 10 seconds... ______________________ Just another cool alt. |
![Vrikshaka Vrikshaka](https://images.evetech.net/characters/845810119/portrait?size=64)
Vrikshaka
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2007.11.23 05:08:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Stakhanov I think drones should have a smaller sig radius instead. Does an Ogre drone look like a cruiser ? Yet it has a 100m sig radius. It is total nonsense that torps can kill drones that easy. Drones should be mostly vulnerable to frigate weapons and smartbombs.
/SIGNED
This is precisely what is needed to balance drones now that they can't be rescoop-repped, and on top of that no longer have damps to protect them from being locked quickly! It is true that sig radiuses on drones don't make sense at all. Ogre = cruiser/Hammerhead = frig - no way. An ogre should slightly smaller than a frig, IMO. Maybe 40/20/10?
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![08891 08891](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1778004253/portrait?size=64)
08891
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Posted - 2007.11.23 09:39:00 -
[21]
Edited by: 08891 on 23/11/2007 09:39:54 /not signed
Being destroyable is a weakness of drones. Deal with it.
If this suggested change happened the arbitrator and its larger drone bay would be even less useful compared to the vexor.
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![Nian Banks Nian Banks](https://images.evetech.net/characters/862326583/portrait?size=64)
Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.11.23 10:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: 08891 Edited by: 08891 on 23/11/2007 09:39:54 /not signed
Being destroyable is a weakness of drones. Deal with it.
If this suggested change happened the arbitrator and its larger drone bay would be even less useful compared to the vexor.
I found some wonderful real-estate for you today, has a lovely river going through it, the stone work is amazing and its centrally located. You will really love this Bridge I found Mr Troll.
On to the topic, /signed for both sig reduction and an increase of drone durability.
There is one more thing I would suggest, that would be an increase to all drones turret tracking speed or a skill to increase it. At maximum speed warrior II's can't effectively track their intended target while orbiting.
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![Eleana Tomelac Eleana Tomelac](https://images.evetech.net/characters/144807672/portrait?size=64)
Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2007.11.23 10:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: 08891 Edited by: 08891 on 23/11/2007 09:39:54 /not signed
Being destroyable is a weakness of drones. Deal with it.
If this suggested change happened the arbitrator and its larger drone bay would be even less useful compared to the vexor.
There's a difference between weakness and paper thin expensive stuff that gets blown away by a large smartbomb in a very short time.
Look at a Hammerhead II with drone durability at lvl 4 against a large kinetic smartbomb : Hit 1 : shield down, armor touched Hit 2 : very low armor hit 3 : no armor very low structure Hit 4 : dead
How long it takes? Hit 1 happens when drones open fire : t=0s Hit 2 : t=8s Hit 3 : t=16s Hit 4 : t=24s
So, with a proper smartbomb user, it takes 24s to wipe out any number of medium drones of non drones ships, aften cost is more than a million for the group of drones up to several millions.
For a drone ship using this kind of weapon, drones may have up to 50% bonus (we'll look at the amarr recons and ishtar as example, you need the cruiser 5 skill, so you have +50% HP). Hit 1 : low shield Hit 2 : 2/3 armor Hit 3 : 1/3 armor Hit 4 : 4/5 structure (structure HP is only a guess, I don't have actual value from item database) Hit 5 (32s) : 1/5 structure or dead (depending on how much is the real structure) Hit 6 (40s) : Dead for sure.
So, any medium drone is dead for sure in 40 seconds. With 150m3 dronebay, you can hold 3 waves (or two waves of meds and 2 waves of lights which comes to the same in terms of combat duration), the maximum combat duration will be 3*32s + 3*5s (launch again) = 121s : it is 2 minutes. After this, you just go away, need to dock, pay for the 3 to 10M in lost drones and then you can come back into a fight.
It's so great using drones!
Drones need higher HP and not ridiculous big signature. A med drone is 50m signature, it's a frigate signature, but it is 10m3 compared to the ftigate which is 20000 to 30000 m3. Heavies have 125m signature which is a cruiser signature... Where the hell those values come from? All other weapon types needs a specific counter mesure, drones should need small weapons or light scout drones as a counter mesure, not a BS dropping a web and shooting them! It's even worse for fighters considering the cost and the ridiculous signature.
Originally by: Item database
Single-pilot combat vessels, deployable from carriers and motherships.
This description sounds like an assault frigate, the signature should be set accordingly. And smaller drones have smaller signature down to 20m for the light scouts.
Also, the need for smaller weapons in battle to counter drones would add the need for specialized cruisers (assault missile launchers), assault frigates and destroyers (well, maybe not, they are paper thin) on the fleet battlefields.
By the way, if light scouts are supposed to be the counter against all kind of small menace, they need smaller signature resolution. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Say hello to my tiny friends ! |
![a51 duke1406 a51 duke1406](https://images.evetech.net/characters/176867343/portrait?size=64)
a51 duke1406
Order Of The Sentinel
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Posted - 2007.11.23 11:22:00 -
[24]
/signed
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![Venkul Mul Venkul Mul](https://images.evetech.net/characters/640524843/portrait?size=64)
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.23 11:36:00 -
[25]
While it was an issue even before today, the changes on Sisi make it needed to rethink drone cost or drone characteristics.
Today 1 T2 drone cost about as much as a T2 weapon of the same "size category" while the effect of a single T2 drone is less than the effect of the average T2 weapon and the survivability is way lower (you loose a T2 weapon when you loose the ship [and all the drones in it] while T2 drones are killed rutinely).
So the possible solutions are 2:
1) simple solution: increase the number of drones produced from each production run x10 keeping the materials used the same. That is the only system to decrease the price by the same amount without destroying the drone market (especially the sentries that are build only through invention).
This will reduce the price of the drones making them really a fire and Forget weapon where losing them will not cripple financially a player (a full wing of 5 sentry drone would cost 1,2 millions and not 12 millions like today). Reducing the drone size(and reducing the drone bandwidth so to keep the same drone use capacity) would add to this use and consume solution.
2) more complicated solution: re-thinking the drone bouns/characteristics so to make them truly the equivalent of a weapon of the same size chategory (before some player start crying about Gallente power ecc. remember that most ships have drone bays and this are changes to the drones not the drone ships). That would require a drone HP increase (similar to the ship HP increase done in 2006), adding some damage increase module (high slot) for drones and 1 mid or low slot module to repair the drone when in the ship drone bay (and the possibility to look the damage status of the drones in the bay).
Another useful idea posted in forum was the possibility to move drones from the cargo hold to the drone bay using a procedure requiring some time (minutes so it would not be done during a combat). It would be similar to reloading a weapon from the cargohold when the ammunition in the weapon magazine have been expended.
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![SoldierOfJustice SoldierOfJustice](https://images.evetech.net/characters/454520370/portrait?size=64)
SoldierOfJustice
Infortunatus Eventus HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.23 11:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: 08891 Edited by: 08891 on 23/11/2007 09:39:54 /not signed
Being destroyable is a weakness of drones. Deal with it.
If this suggested change happened the arbitrator and its larger drone bay would be even less useful compared to the vexor.
That means there should be something to compensate and make us want to use drones like we want to use other types of weapons.
Think of when the manufactorer wants to sell his product. "Hello there, this is our newest product. The drones you see will have same damage output as other weapons." But the problem is you risk losing your drones but you dont risk losing other types of weapons... so why would the drones exist? What do they do better than other types of weapons if they are easy to destroy and the benifits are only same as other types of weapons.
If drones dont get a health buff then they should get more dps imo, else no point in using them. Would just mean throwing isk away and I dont believe anyone would want that.
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![inza onoa inza onoa](https://images.evetech.net/characters/915190898/portrait?size=64)
inza onoa
Gallente GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.23 11:47:00 -
[27]
/signed
Drone attack dmg whas lowered at almost each big patch in the recent past, I noticed best right when Rev2.0 was introduced. Took much longer to kill the same angel bs rat with the same setup on my side; and took much longer to kill the same corpmate with his same raven setup. Prove that CCP devs lowered drone attack dmg without writing it in the changes log.
Now while most ships have reduced drone bays/bw, total drone nerf is getting completed. Some people like me trained to be drone specialized, the combat effictiveness of such players is ruined totally.
Ofcourse i understand lots of people are happy drone players are getting rendered useless, because they can kill them far more easier from now on. But thats not really fair, if i knew drones were getting useless, i would have trained a torp raven or just gunnery.
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![Gypsio III Gypsio III](https://images.evetech.net/characters/764629986/portrait?size=64)
Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.23 13:27:00 -
[28]
Smartbombs aren't really that useful as a drone counter, because of station/gate and highsec issues. Not to mention the fitting requirements.
Your analysis of the effects of a large smartie on medium drones, is interesting, but I'd expect a large smartbomb to rip up medium drones in fairly short order. I'd like to see more thorough analysis, using a medium/large smartie against medium/heavy drones.
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![Venkul Mul Venkul Mul](https://images.evetech.net/characters/640524843/portrait?size=64)
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.23 14:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: inza onoa /signed
Drone attack dmg whas lowered at almost each big patch in the recent past, I noticed best right when Rev2.0 was introduced. Took much longer to kill the same angel bs rat with the same setup on my side; and took much longer to kill the same corpmate with his same raven setup. Prove that CCP devs lowered drone attack dmg without writing it in the changes log.
Now while most ships have reduced drone bays/bw, total drone nerf is getting completed. Some people like me trained to be drone specialized, the combat effictiveness of such players is ruined totally.
Ofcourse i understand lots of people are happy drone players are getting rendered useless, because they can kill them far more easier from now on. But thats not really fair, if i knew drones were getting useless, i would have trained a torp raven or just gunnery.
It was not the drone damage that was changed, but a old bug resurfacing . Your drones do less damage because they keep the MDW on while orbiting the target. So they move too fast for the tracking they have and they miss more.
If you don't web the target, so that he can try to move away from the drones, forcing them to follow him instead of orbiting you will see that your damage increase.
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![Eka Maladay Eka Maladay](https://images.evetech.net/characters/363222001/portrait?size=64)
Eka Maladay
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Posted - 2007.11.23 19:51:00 -
[30]
Having a smartbomb enable you to quickly disable just about any ship's secondary weapon and the drone ship's primary weapon... doesn't seem wrong in itself. The real problem being -every- weapons that deal damage is pretty much an anti-drone component since even large gun can kill medium drone with relative ease.
It is easier to handle this weakness when you are using small/medium drone. Those take a while to lock, but when you relies on heavy drone the real problem begins, and those are mostly the drone ship's problem as close range ship relies on those much more then the other ships.
If drone get fair treatment like other weapon type which:
1. Only have one or two major counter (gun have problem with tracking disruptor, missile have problem with defender, but not much else)
2. Have mods to increase their efficiency on damage (Sentry drone damage rigs is the only thing they got?).
Then it would be much more fair. Navigation computer only increasing their efficiency by decreasing their build in weakness. Omni is about the only mod that increase their efficiency but all other guns share the same tracking computer mod anyway.
Drone, at the moment, is treated as a secondary weapon, but with higher requirement for skill then a primary weapon (while none of their skill will share with other gun type, but even gun and missile can share some of the skill). That is a design problem since some ship DO need to relies on them.
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