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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:37:00 -
[61]
loled
ow HELL NO!!! caldari getting something usefull for PVP ?! O.o and gallente not being the only solo panage mobiles?! WTF IS HAPPENING HERE!!! :P
loled
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:50:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Veng3ance Edited by: Veng3ance on 22/11/2007 00:06:38
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Veng3ance Edited by: Veng3ance on 21/11/2007 19:34:14
If I hear one more peson say "Electronic warfare on the mega" im gonna ****en hunt you down and you won't be having any children for the sake of saving us the stupidity in the future.
you COULD easily replace your scram with any other mod you wish! you just dont want to tuch your cooky cutter setup!
Honestly man, for the most part you make good posts. But wtf kind of response is that?
You know damn well that no megathron pilots fit ECM and sensor damps in their spare-mids like has been suggested. Gimme a break.
And no I wont be taking off my web, MWD, or cap booster they are basically required fit on any blaster setup.
i know that mega pilots usualy fit web/scram. but honestly in a gang you rarely gonna tackle anything anyway considering your a bs and have to compete with cruisers and frigs, so the only thing your scram is usualy good for is delivering point number 50 5 mins afetr all ceptors and cruisers allready put theyrs on. so while not flying solo you have 1-2 free mids you could use for sensor boosters, damps, ecm, tracking comps whilst still havig almost identical tank and gank compared to the raven. at the end the mega is just so much more versatile than the raven. but if you you really need the scram then so bee it and next time our gangs pass each other my mega is so gonna trackingdisrupt you that you wont be having any chlidren anymore:)
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LUH 3471
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:21:00 -
[63]
either buff blaster damage or reduce torp damage slightly then it will be just fine
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:29:00 -
[64]
Originally by: LUH 3471 either buff blaster damage or reduce torp damage slightly then it will be just fine
It's fine now. There really isn't much comparison in practice imo. The EFT warriors need to diaf.
This game is about situations not stats.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:57:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 22/11/2007 02:01:58
Quick question, I don't have all my usual stats with me and it's nearly 2am here.
Approximate damage at 25km vs a stationary target:
Hyperion 8x 425mm, 3x MagStab, Javelin = 760 8x Neutrons, 3x MagStab, Null = 500
Maelstrom 8x 1400mm Howitzer, 3x Gyro, Quake = 625 8x 800m Repeating, 3x Gyro, Barrage = 610
Abaddon 8x Tachyon, 3x Heatsink, Gleam = 780 8x Megapulse, 3x Heatsink, Scortch = 725
Raven 6x Siege, 3x BCU, Faction Torps = What?
Ignore signature resolution and assume the target is a freighter or heavily painted ship. What kind of damage are we talking about here?
Also feel free to correct my numbers... like I said it's 2am.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.22 02:11:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 22/11/2007 02:01:58
Quick question, I don't have all my usual stats with me and it's nearly 2am here.
Approximate damage at 25km vs a stationary target:
Hyperion 8x 425mm, 3x MagStab, Javelin = 760 8x Neutrons, 3x MagStab, Null = 500
Maelstrom 8x 1400mm Howitzer, 3x Gyro, Quake = 625 8x 800m Repeating, 3x Gyro, Barrage = 610
Abaddon 8x Tachyon, 3x Heatsink, Gleam = 780 8x Megapulse, 3x Heatsink, Scortch = 725
Raven 6x Siege, 3x BCU, Faction Torps = What?
Ignore signature resolution and assume the target is a freighter or heavily painted ship. What kind of damage are we talking about here?
Also feel free to correct my numbers... like I said it's 2am.
I think it will come in at about 800+ (guessing) without implants or drones.
But, I think you just hit it's role right on the head. Pure fire support, no tackling, etc.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.22 10:32:00 -
[67]
Not much fitting room on any of the other ships mentioned with those modules fitted either.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 10:39:00 -
[68]
Edited by: d026 on 22/11/2007 10:42:18 Edited by: d026 on 22/11/2007 10:39:54
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 22/11/2007 02:01:58
Raven 6x Siege, 3x BCU, Faction Torps = What?
that depends completely on the targets sig radius.
sig radius over 450 = full dps sig radius lets say 150 (cruiser) = 67% dmg reduction sig radius frig 50 = 90% damage reduction
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.22 11:04:00 -
[69]
If you really want to cry - compare a Trinity Raven against a Blasterthron against an Autopest.....its been months since I have seen an autopest in a gang.
I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet.
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Shidousha
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Posted - 2007.11.22 11:20:00 -
[70]
60% of the players are caldari - obviously playing caldari is far too convenient. Let's nerf Caldari until they only make 25% of the population as they should!
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Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.22 11:25:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Shidousha 60% of the players are caldari - obviously playing caldari is far too convenient. Let's nerf Caldari until they only make 25% of the population as they should!
Nerfing their ships won't work. Nerfing the starting attributes of the Achura is the only way to fix that problem.
Oh wait...damn.
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.22 13:13:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Gragnor on 22/11/2007 13:14:38 The only issue I have with missiles is the 100% hit for every shot. While damage is not maximized per shot, its the 100% hit that distorts everything. The other issue is the lack of a viable counter; for turrets its tracking disrupters (even if they have been nerfed0. For drones, its the smart bomb which can kill them fairly quickly. The only viable counter to missiles is ECM and Caldari is the ECM race.
In addition, the use of FoF's is very distorting as you can jam a missile ship but it can still shoot.
If CCP could introduce some kind of anti-missile system, it would be fairer. Perhaps, chaff for Minmitar (use the snowball launcher as an example, which gives a chance to decoy a missile away. What about decoy drones which have a chance to seduce a missile away from a target towards themselves?
Then missiles are no longer the 100% hit, variable damage devices and some balance is achieved.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.22 13:22:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 22/11/2007 13:23:58 Some sort of high or midslot antimissile module would balance things, yes. Currently the only antimissile system in the game (defenders)
a) doesn't work, generally b) requires a launcher slot, which is screwy
Maybe fix defenders so that they actually work (vs torps, too), and make a new defender-only launcher that can be fitted into any highslot.
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NeoTheo
Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 14:48:00 -
[74]
Yes torps are gonna do more damage, but for crying out loud look a the ships as a whole.
1. Speed. a raven is a FAT slug, if you fit a MWD your loosing a tank slot. period.
2. if you fit a painter (and torp pretty much need them not to suc arse), you loose another tank slot, leaving the raven with...
1. a relativly squishy tank that has not room for cap injection. 2. fit a cap injector and have next to no tank at all.
a mega will be able to tank better, and also fit appropriate modules in the midle slots to fit the situation.
the mega is more flexible and the mega can also field drones to a far greater extent than the raven (5 mediums, with a total of 7 in the bay).
looking at EFT numbers is entertaining but not exactly a good idea.
I am caldari all the way, all 20 million skillpoints, however i am STILL cross training in to galente as frankly the flexibility of the gal ships totally rocks.
/Theo.
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FawKa
Gallente x13
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Posted - 2007.11.22 14:55:00 -
[75]
I wonder if ppl forget that %-potential guns have over launchers when thinking of wrecking hits etc. Sure Raven gets nice dps at stabile dmg. If fitted right etc and calculating wreckings etc. Shouldnt guns still have more dps?
Anyways, I think its a fine change. I actually miss the raven and the torpedoes in gang battle. Oh, and it buff's my Phoon aswell ^^
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NeoTheo
Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 14:57:00 -
[76]
and oh,,, btw, the next person to mention fof's fails.
(given that there is no FoF for torps as far as i am aware).
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2007.11.22 15:36:00 -
[77]
I would prefer to see torps changed to around 80m/s base explosion velocity so that they can't hit moving targets that well outside web range, but then also change is so that a target moving slower than the explosion velocity suffers a penalty to explosion radius, just like a 400m sig res gun can hit a non-moving 40m sig frigate if the transversal is low enough.
This would make it so that torps at close range would track anything webbed quite well, but even a battleship with an afterburner could negate most of the damage outside web range.
I just think explosion velocity should be the limiter instead of explosion radius.
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Dracorimus
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.11.22 15:39:00 -
[78]
Sup, did your solopwnmobile get nerfed? I'm very happy torps are much better now and blasterthrons won't be the only solopwnmobiles in game....
I'm amarr specced and I can tell you its a good change -
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 15:45:00 -
[79]
Edited by: d026 on 22/11/2007 15:47:00
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
This would make it so that torps at close range would track anything webbed quite well, but even a battleship with an afterburner could negate most of the damage outside web range.
HOW in the right mind would that be balanced? Besides Rage torps allready have 150m explo velocity..- thus a mega moving 450m/s with a ab would allready negate ****load of dps againsta TIi torp raven..
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.22 23:19:00 -
[80]
Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius!
No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial.
You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number.
The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948
Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.22 23:42:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 22/11/2007 23:43:23 Honestly, all large shortrange turret DPS is underpowered for todays needs. This isn't specifically a blaster nerf, because quite frankly Abaddon, Megathron and Hyperion are still amongst the best shortrange hulls around - to the point where they're equally if not more desirable as SiSi Torpravens.
There are two underlying problems here though: 1. Shortrange are underpowered, by suffering from the tracking formulas range sensitivity, not getting the same 15% increase from faction that missiles got and the T2 LR ammo penalizations.
2. The Raven as a hull in itself is woefully underpowered, being short on CPU and PG for most modern demands in fitting. Pretty much every other Tier2 BS is capable of a useful fit with remotereps or heavy neuts and a set of shortrange weaponry. The Raven comes short on fitting, high on demands (remote shield transfers are CPU murderers) and without particularly powerful bonuses.
In the past, it's been sustained by it's EW mids and recently explosion radius rigs. EW is going away, and with it a lot of the attractiveness of Cruise. The Torpedo change is perfectly fair in the sense that it then retains a niche, but utterly nonsensical that it excels at one niche (bs killing) now to the degree of ridiculing others and becomes woefully bad as a versatile platform.
The caveat here is of course, that amongst it's niche will be territorial warfare, so it'll more or less be Ravens online anyway :)
Conclusion: I'd be down for more fitting room on the Raven, and toning down Torp DPS again while getting back some range. But really, I'd rather every shortrange BS gets changed in one fell swoop, so we don't end up with more public outcries and reactionary changes that will end up sticking another ship into the trashcan, much like with Nosferatou, speedmods and all that :/
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2007.11.23 01:41:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Wu Jiun on 23/11/2007 01:43:42 Edited by: Wu Jiun on 23/11/2007 01:41:51
Originally by: Dracorimus Sup, did your solopwnmobile get nerfed? I'm very happy torps are much better now and blasterthrons won't be the only solopwnmobiles in game....
I'm amarr specced and I can tell you its a good change
Yeah. A torp raven outdamaging megapulses on geddon and abaddon from 0 to 45km. With 0 cap use, arbitrary damage types, same hp buffer, better speed and agility than both plated abaddon and geddon will have. Thats a *really* good change for amarr. Scorch was our last resort, now its gone.
Geddon does a tiny bit more damage if you take drones into account. A tiny, tiny bit for all the drawbacks and its gone if you take dmg type into account once again. And don't give me this crap about hitting smaller targets. It's not like bs guns do wtfdmg to unwebbed cruisers or frigs.
And if they are webbed why not assume ravens targets are painted either? The whole discussion is full of hypocrisy.
Edit: And don't tell me its all about the tackling. I can tackle (not really actually) and you don't have to make a compromise between dmg mods and tank. Another plus of the raven that many seasoned pilots seem to forget when they talk about "balance".
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.23 03:02:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius!
No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial.
You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number.
The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948
Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted. you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega. sig radius matter so your 990 prossible rage torp dps are true ON A STATIONARY TARGET WITH >=530 sig radius which is bigger than a bs
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.23 07:33:00 -
[84]
Originally by: d026 you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega.
So, you're saying that Mega's niche after this change will be against stationary cruisers at 5km range or less?
Also, please include the drones for the Raven if you include them for Mega. -- Gradient forum |
Dracorimus
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.11.23 10:36:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Wu Jiun Edited by: Wu Jiun on 23/11/2007 01:43:42 Edited by: Wu Jiun on 23/11/2007 01:41:51
Originally by: Dracorimus Sup, did your solopwnmobile get nerfed? I'm very happy torps are much better now and blasterthrons won't be the only solopwnmobiles in game....
I'm amarr specced and I can tell you its a good change
Yeah. A torp raven outdamaging megapulses on geddon and abaddon from 0 to 45km. With 0 cap use, arbitrary damage types, same hp buffer, better speed and agility than both plated abaddon and geddon will have. Thats a *really* good change for amarr. Scorch was our last resort, now its gone.
Geddon does a tiny bit more damage if you take drones into account. A tiny, tiny bit for all the drawbacks and its gone if you take dmg type into account once again. And don't give me this crap about hitting smaller targets. It's not like bs guns do wtfdmg to unwebbed cruisers or frigs.
And if they are webbed why not assume ravens targets are painted either? The whole discussion is full of hypocrisy.
Edit: And don't tell me its all about the tackling. I can tackle (not really actually) and you don't have to make a compromise between dmg mods and tank. Another plus of the raven that many seasoned pilots seem to forget when they talk about "balance".
I forgot to mention my Geddon can STILL wtfpwn Ravens anyway? heheeh, my Abaddon is a BEAST by the way -
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.23 14:59:00 -
[86]
Originally by: d026
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted.
But the target will be painted, much like any target my Blaster Rokh goes after will be webbed and scrambled despite me not fitting a webber or a scrambler.
...and then you go off on your tutorial again and go as far as to use rage as your example to skew things to your side of the argument. Most of us know about signature radius and explosion velocity, most of us know the typical sig radius of each ship class. Anyone who doesn't will quickly prove their lack of knowledge. There is no need to assume everyone but you doesn't have a clue how the game works.
I don't fly a Megathron for anything but solo lulz it's simply not as good as the Rokh with blasters the way I use it. I'm very much looking forward to the Torp changes, though I am worried that it will bring about the Age of the Raven and instead of tweaking the torps a little, as I believe they should, the nerfbat will be swung too hard and in the wrong place. I don't want my Raven to be uber short-term, I want it to be good long-term.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.23 16:52:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: d026
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted.
But the target will be painted, much like any target my Blaster Rokh goes after will be webbed and scrambled despite me not fitting a webber or a scrambler.
...and then you go off on your tutorial again and go as far as to use rage as your example to skew things to your side of the argument. Most of us know about signature radius and explosion velocity, most of us know the typical sig radius of each ship class. Anyone who doesn't will quickly prove their lack of knowledge. There is no need to assume everyone but you doesn't have a clue how the game works.
I don't fly a Megathron for anything but solo lulz it's simply not as good as the Rokh with blasters the way I use it. I'm very much looking forward to the Torp changes, though I am worried that it will bring about the Age of the Raven and instead of tweaking the torps a little, as I believe they should, the nerfbat will be swung too hard and in the wrong place. I don't want my Raven to be uber short-term, I want it to be good long-term.
so how are you gonna achive 990 dps without rages? yeah you always have DREAD GURIASTA torps with you.. with cn torps you are down to 948 dps VS 949 dps from your mega w/void. and still you wont deliver those 948 dps to anythign with a sig radius <450...
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.23 18:20:00 -
[88]
How do people manage to reply to a post while ignoring it's content so thoroughly.
Where did I say I intended to achieve 990 dps. I only asked about the dps value regarding faction torpedoes. When I was able to get the data myself I posted the values for rage, javelin, and caldari navy torps in case anyone else was curious.
Did I mention DG Torps?
Again with my mega. Just because I have an Intaki protrait doesn't mean I fly a Megathron. Indeed my previous post tells you such.
Yes, 948 dps won't be done to anything with a sig below 450 unless it is painted. It will still do significant DPS for the size class it is hitting especially with painters on them. In addition a plate-mega won't be doing it's 1160 dps outside 6.8km to any ship. Indeed it won't be doing any damage at 19.4km so how that fits into a response to my original question regarding damage at 25km is beyond me.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
Jasai Kameron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.23 20:09:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 23/11/2007 20:12:06
Originally by: Kal Shakai
Originally by: Solokar
You may not easily beat the Raven anymore in a Mega, but if you lose one to a Raven your gonna get laughed right out of here.
Pure pwn. Thread finished. Nothing to see here.
Uhm... have you two read the thread? Did you notice the bit where two players have tested Mega vs. Raven and the Mega has been "wtfpwned" - which is quoting the guy who things torps are fine.
Look at facts, not propoganda. The Raven is beating the Mega on SISI. The only argument being advanced to say that's okay is that apparently the Raven can't tackle while pwning the Megathron, which means it's not good at solo.
So, to summarise, Raven is now much better than Megathron in Gang and will either destroy or drive off the Megathron in solo.
Problem? I don't know. But let's cease pretending that someone who loses a fight to a Raven in a Megathron is a fool. And let's start paying attention to what's happening on SISI, rather than just spouting our mouths off because we fly one race's ships and not the other's.
Edited: Oh, and people saying the Megathron can offset an imbalance by fitting EW in its mids, please take a look around this forum. Every piece of EW in the game has been nerfed. ECM is only good on specialised ships. Painters don't count. TDs and RSDs are looking at something like 40% effectiveness of current standing.
The age of free midslots equalling superiority has ended.
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.23 21:49:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Solokar on 23/11/2007 21:57:45
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
Uhm... have you two read the thread? Did you notice the bit where two players have tested Mega vs. Raven and the Mega has been "wtfpwned" - which is quoting the guy who things torps are fine.
Look at facts, not propoganda. The Raven is beating the Mega on SISI. The only argument being advanced to say that's okay is that apparently the Raven can't tackle while pwning the Megathron, which means it's not good at solo.
So, to summarise, Raven is now much better than Megathron in Gang and will either destroy or drive off the Megathron in solo.
Problem? I don't know. But let's cease pretending that someone who loses a fight to a Raven in a Megathron is a fool. And let's start paying attention to what's happening on SISI, rather than just spouting our mouths off because we fly one race's ships and not the other's.
Edited: Oh, and people saying the Megathron can offset an imbalance by fitting EW in its mids, please take a look around this forum. Every piece of EW in the game has been nerfed. ECM is only good on specialised ships. Painters don't count. TDs and RSDs are looking at something like 40% effectiveness of current standing.
The age of free midslots equalling superiority has ended.
For the record. I can fly both ships well (actually the Mega better) between my various accounts. For you to suggest that I only fly one or the other is ignorant.
Also, I have spent a lot of time on the test server testing the new torps. Yes, you can drive a Mega off, but so can a passive Drake drive off a ton of ships that people feel they shouldn't. It's a similar situation.
The FACT is that the Raven can not gank, tackle and tank. No one should lose a Mega in a 1 v 1.
If your worried about gang balance then bring some proper gang fittings and logic to the table. However, I will put forth the the INTENDED role of these new torps on the Raven is for gang fire support.
The Mega still does it's thing better than the Raven. Are you so obtuse as to think the Raven shouldn't be able to do it's role as well or even better?
I fly a Mega on my other account and I love it. I am not so thick as to think I should be able to kill everything simply because of it though.
Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode.
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