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Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.23 22:15:00 - [91] Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode. So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.) -- Gradient forum
Solokar	Posted - 2007.11.23 22:22:00 - [92] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode. So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.) That setup would die so fast to a Mega.
Karandor Minmatar Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.11.24 01:46:00 - [93] Originally by: Solokar Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode. So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.) Will die VERY fast to an abbadon. Raven buff is an amarr buff since amarr eat raven tanks for breakfast. That setup would die so fast to a Mega. Don't ***** about having to train a lot of skills until you fly minmatar.
Yukisa	Posted - 2007.11.24 03:49:00 - [94] The change is good, but a little too powerful. A slight reduction in RoF is in order. The most important factor is range. First and foremost, a 30km range weapon systems should NEVER out damage a sub 10km weapon system ever. That's before factoring in cap use, damage selection, and limiting factors of the weapon systems. Not only is it bad for gank megas, its bad for amarr megapulse users. It was decent at short-mid range, now the raven with t1 torps and t2 javs outperform it in every way. I'm all for a boost to raven pvp, but there's a fine line before **** gets out of wack and then later down the road gets nerfed again. Do it right while its in testing to avoid much whinage later.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.24 06:34:00 - [95] Originally by: Solokar Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode. So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.) That setup would die so fast to a Mega. Of course, of course. Give that easily-victorious Mega's setup, then. -- Gradient forum
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.24 06:53:00 - [96] Originally by: Karandor Will die VERY fast to an abbadon. Raven buff is an amarr buff since amarr eat raven tanks for breakfast. (Guessing that that was what you wrote, the quote is a bit messed up.) Sounds reasonable. Haven't tested it, but it gets a whole lot more tank than Raven, although it still takes a couple of minutes to kill the Raven. It has less damage and a whole lot less speed, though, so Raven might be able to get the range/transversal high enough to reduce Abaddon's damage enough to win. Probably not, though. The question was about blasters, though - are they still useful for anything except for killing stationary cruisers at 5km range? -- Gradient forum
Solokar	Posted - 2007.11.24 07:00:00 - [97] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Solokar Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode. So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.) That setup would die so fast to a Mega. Of course, of course. Give that easily-victorious Mega's setup, then. I can't believe your serious. Do you have any practical pvp experience? Just take any standard Mega setup. I doubt that Raven setup has 20K shields on it. My passive Mega flies with almost 50K of armor. It wouldn't be close.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.24 07:04:00 - [98] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Karandor Will die VERY fast to an abbadon. Raven buff is an amarr buff since amarr eat raven tanks for breakfast. (Guessing that that was what you wrote, the quote is a bit messed up.) Sounds reasonable. Haven't tested it, but it gets a whole lot more tank than Raven, although it still takes a couple of minutes to kill the Raven. It has less damage and a whole lot less speed, though, so Raven might be able to get the range/transversal high enough to reduce Abaddon's damage enough to win. Probably not, though. The question was about blasters, though - are they still useful for anything except for killing stationary cruisers at 5km range? 1)Mega Pulse Laser gonna have way bigger range than torps. 2)No because torps changed, blaster suddenly deal only 0.1 damage... -.-
Solokar	Posted - 2007.11.24 07:25:00 - [99] Originally by: Yukisa The change is good, but a little too powerful. A slight reduction in RoF is in order. The most important factor is range. First and foremost, a 30km range weapon systems should NEVER out damage a sub 10km weapon system ever. That's before factoring in cap use, damage selection, and limiting factors of the weapon systems. Not only is it bad for gank megas, its bad for amarr megapulse users. It was decent at short-mid range, now the raven with t1 torps and t2 javs outperform it in every way. I'm all for a boost to raven pvp, but there's a fine line before **** gets out of wack and then later down the road gets nerfed again. Do it right while its in testing to avoid much whinage later. I'm not going to dispute this at all. It may be a bit much. I can't really say. I've spent a lot of time testing them and I think the role change is good for the game. The current -25% ROF / +33% DPS changed to -20% ROF / +25% DPS wouldn't bother me.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.11.24 08:14:00 - [100] Originally by: Benn Helmsman 1)Mega Pulse Laser gonna have way bigger range than torps. Not on the raven. You are not limited to t1 torps.

Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.24 08:25:00 - [101] Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: Benn Helmsman 1)Mega Pulse Laser gonna have way bigger range than torps. Not on the raven. You are not limited to t1 torps. Javelin range 45km with maxed skills right? Mega Pulse Laser get 45km with long range ammo + falloff
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:22:00 - [102] Originally by: Solokar I doubt that Raven setup has 20K shields on it. My passive Mega flies with almost 50K of armor. It wouldn't be close. I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now. -- Gradient forum
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:29:00 - [103] Originally by: Theron Gyrow I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now. i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50...
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.24 14:09:00 - [104] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Theron Gyrow I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now. i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50... My cluelessness is quite possible - if I ever stop learning new things, I will be astounded. However, I'd be interested in some information on how those fights proceed, as well as how the the Ravens are fitted. Could you please elaborate a bit? -- Gradient forum
Dr Buffer	Posted - 2007.11.24 14:29:00 - [105] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Theron Gyrow I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now. i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50... Your SISI kd ratio? LOOK HOW STUPID YOU ARE. Also with the extra high slots and the new heat mitigation system you can slap in 2 offlined heavy nos and overload to your heart's content.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.24 15:24:00 - [106] Edited by: Goumindong on 24/11/2007 15:24:46 Originally by: Karandor Will die VERY fast to an abbadon. Raven buff is an amarr buff since amarr eat raven tanks for breakfast. The problem is that it will die even faster to a Raven, since the Raven has better damage types in any situation it so chooses due to the singular damage type it is able to produce. ed: It also does a lot more DPS with a good amount more range.
Jasai Kameron Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.24 15:42:00 - [107] Originally by: Solokar For the record. I can fly both ships well (actually the Mega better) between my various accounts. For you to suggest that I only fly one or the other is ignorant. Also, I have spent a lot of time on the test server testing the new torps. Yes, you can drive a Mega off, but so can a passive Drake drive off a ton of ships that people feel they shouldn't. It's a similar situation. The FACT is that the Raven can not gank, tackle and tank. No one should lose a Mega in a 1 v 1. If your worried about gang balance then bring some proper gang fittings and logic to the table. However, I will put forth the the INTENDED role of these new torps on the Raven is for gang fire support. The Mega still does it's thing better than the Raven. Are you so obtuse as to think the Raven shouldn't be able to do it's role as well or even better? I fly a Mega on my other account and I love it. I am not so thick as to think I should be able to kill everything simply because of it though. Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode. The Drake drives ships off by just having an awesome tank. People leave because they're bored, not because they're on the receiving end of 800+ dps. You're insulting people who lose a fight to a Raven in a Megathron. But it will happen all the time. I'm assuming this mystical tank, gank and tackle Megathron is one of those plated monstrosities that have a warp time of several centuries. All you need is a fight that's fairly close, a slight miscalculation on when/whether to run away and then bam, you're dead. Unless you're suggesting the Megathron is a fool to engage in the first place. That it should just be running away at the first sign of a Raven. From what I understand, the Raven is going to be superior in any gang larger than one, with its effectiveness dramatically increasing the larger the gang is (well, until you get to full-scale fleet fights and snipers, obviously). And that in a 1v1 fight, it will most likely be a draw or a win to the Raven. It seems to me that there's an argument that suggests this shouldn't be the case. That the Megathron should win 1v1, maybe be moderately better to equal in small gangs, and then the Raven should be more useful in gangs larger than I don't know, 4-5 people. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I object to people who base an argument on anyone who disagrees being an idiot. People will lose Megathrons to Ravens. And many of those people won't be fools.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.11.24 16:47:00 - [108] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: Benn Helmsman 1)Mega Pulse Laser gonna have way bigger range than torps. Not on the raven. You are not limited to t1 torps. Javelin range 45km with maxed skills right? Mega Pulse Laser get 45km with long range ammo + falloff Pretty much, yes. How that qualifies as "way bigger range" is beyond me. Have you actually looked at laser falloff? Its 10km with maxed skills. 10km. lol.
DarkXenon	Posted - 2007.11.24 18:27:00 - [109] You can argue all day till your blue in the face and pretend that this is a 'fair' update. Megathron -Doesn't Tank it dies slowly -If you fit reps then your taking away the only thing that makes it good DPS -The turning cirle on a plate mega is awfull -Once you kill a target you then have to MWD to the next one -MWD with Med cap booster - limited movement Ive never flown a raven so I can't comment on a setup but I have done 1 vs 1's on test and they normally just tank me while I die slowly. Now considering this was before torp buff I'm slightly concerned.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.24 21:39:00 - [110] Hey, add the tempest and apoc into the whine, might be more interesting then. It's great being Amarr isn't it. Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!

Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.24 21:49:00 - [111] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 24/11/2007 21:49:42 I played with a raven on Sisi in FFA and 1v1s. The raven is a better PVP ship now, and I could hold my own against Gal ships finnaly where as before it was a joke. But, I did not always win and I'm pretty much lvl 5 in everything related to flying a raven. So it's not some win button ship. Still has all the same weaknesses it had before, can just do more DPS now, brining it on par with other close range platfoms. -AS The Real Space Initiative (Forum Link)
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.24 21:55:00 - [112] Originally by: Dr Buffer Originally by: d026 Originally by: Theron Gyrow I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now. i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50... Your SISI kd ratio? LOOK HOW STUPID YOU ARE. Also with the extra high slots and the new heat mitigation system you can slap in 2 offlined heavy nos and overload to your heart's content. at least i have first hand experience you have to believe everythign random noobcorp alts write on teh forums.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.24 21:57:00 - [113] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 24/11/2007 21:49:42 I played with a raven on Sisi in FFA and 1v1s. The raven is a better PVP ship now, and I could hold my own against Gal ships finnaly where as before it was a joke. But, I did not always win and I'm pretty much lvl 5 in everything related to flying a raven. So it's not some win button ship. Still has all the same weaknesses it had before, can just do more DPS now, brining it on par with other close range platfoms. QFT
Solokar	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:48:00 - [114] Originally by: Jasai Kameron The Drake drives ships off by just having an awesome tank. People leave because they're bored, not because they're on the receiving end of 800+ dps. What is the difference? The point was neither one holds you down while doing it. Originally by: Jasai Kameron You're insulting people who lose a fight to a Raven in a Megathron. But it will happen all the time. I'm assuming this mystical tank, gank and tackle Megathron is one of those plated monstrosities that have a warp time of several centuries. All you need is a fight that's fairly close, a slight miscalculation on when/whether to run away and then bam, you're dead. All I said is that it would make me laugh. That would make me laugh. Originally by: Jasai Kameron Unless you're suggesting the Megathron is a fool to engage in the first place. That it should just be running away at the first sign of a Raven. Not 1 v 1. Originally by: Jasai Kameron From what I understand, the Raven is going to be superior in any gang larger than one, with its effectiveness dramatically increasing the larger the gang is (well, until you get to full-scale fleet fights and snipers, obviously). And that in a 1v1 fight, it will most likely be a draw or a win to the Megathron. Fixed it for you. Originally by: Jasai Kameron Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I object to people who base an argument on anyone who disagrees being an idiot. People will lose Megathrons to Ravens. And many of those people won't be fools. I don't believe I called anyone an idiot. If I did that would be out of character and I apologize. I did say someone was ignorant to assume I only fly one type of ship. I will also contend that the Mega should still either win or draw in a 1 v 1 situation with normal combat fittings. This may prove to be wrong over time. Until, then I will stick to my belief.
Solokar	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:50:00 - [115] Originally by: DarkXenon You can argue all day till your blue in the face and pretend that this is a 'fair' update. Megathron -Doesn't Tank it dies slowly -If you fit reps then your taking away the only thing that makes it good DPS -The turning cirle on a plate mega is awfull -Once you kill a target you then have to MWD to the next one -MWD with Med cap booster - limited movement Ive never flown a raven so I can't comment on a setup but I have done 1 vs 1's on test and they normally just tank me while I die slowly. Now considering this was before torp buff I'm slightly concerned. Nothing has changed to the Megathron right? Those things still apply. The only change is that the Raven is no longer an easy kill. Why is that so bad?
Solokar	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:54:00 - [116] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Solokar I doubt that Raven setup has 20K shields on it. My passive Mega flies with almost 50K of armor. It wouldn't be close. I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now. Here you go again....sigh. There is no gang is the setup I alluded to. Yes, I do have a set of LOW-grade slaves. That's not so uncommon for a Megathron pilot who solo's. You can put any implants into your Raven pilot you like it's not going to change the outcome with the setup you mentioned.
Solokar	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:01:00 - [117] Originally by: Dristra Hey, add the tempest and apoc into the whine, might be more interesting then. Let try to keep this thread on topic. The OP stated that there was no point in flying a blaster ship anymore. He puts forth the theory that a torp Raven can do what a Megathron does better than a Megathron. This means a close range slugfest. You could easily create a Raven setup that could kite a Mega around and eventually turn it into a wreck every time. However, you could do this before Trinity also. My contention is that a Megathron can still do it better, in the ranges that blasters are used, if dps, tanking and tackling are all taken into account. If this needs to turn into a discussion of the dps a Raven can do from 15 - 30km then that's another thread waiting to happen.
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2007.11.25 02:21:00 - [118] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius! No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat. I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial. You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number. The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948 Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990 on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted. you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega. sig radius matter so your 990 prossible rage torp dps are true ON A STATIONARY TARGET WITH >=530 sig radius which is bigger than a bs How can you deliver full DPS to a cruiser with large guns ? Large guns have something called 'signature resolution', on Neutron IIs thats 400m. If target got less than 400m radius your DPS going down the drain. Drake got 285 m base radius. It's like the missiles explo radius. Raven got 460 base sig, so yes, Blasters will do full dmg on statinary Raven.. Unless it's @ 0 m, all guns miss forever if getting that close. The stats to compare are: Missile vs Gun explo radius vs signature resolution. explo speed vs tracking speed.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.25 02:50:00 - [119] Edited by: d026 on 25/11/2007 02:52:27 Originally by: Brixer Originally by: d026 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius! No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat. I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial. You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number. The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948 Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990 on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted. you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega. sig radius matter so your 990 prossible rage torp dps are true ON A STATIONARY TARGET WITH >=530 sig radius which is bigger than a bs How can you deliver full DPS to a cruiser with large guns ? Large guns have something called 'signature resolution', on Neutron IIs thats 400m. If target got less than 400m radius your DPS going down the drain. Drake got 285 m base radius. It's like the missiles explo radius. Raven got 460 base sig, so yes, Blasters will do full dmg on statinary Raven.. Unless it's @ 0 m, all guns miss forever if getting that close. The stats to compare are: Missile vs Gun explo radius vs signature resolution. explo speed vs tracking speed. the tracking guide tells me that you will hit a stationary 140m sig radius cruiser with your 400 sig resolution large neutron blaster for 100% of your dps. /edit i had 10m/s traversal added to the calc, corrected now.


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