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Melor Rend
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Posted - 2007.11.21 12:44:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Melor Rend on 21/11/2007 12:51:54 Edited by: Melor Rend on 21/11/2007 12:50:05 Hello
Can a Dev or someone that is part of the "balancing" team pls be so kind as to explain to me why on earth ANYBODY should use t2 large blasters after rev3 when torps do just as much DPS with more range, less skills and no cap usage?
So far it's been pretty logical and imho post rev3 it's gonna be totally imbalanced:
Torps pre-Rev3 + Long Range + No cap useage + No tracking problems + Can hit faster targets better then large guns + only need about 3-4 mil SP to use effectivly ~ average DPS for BS sized weapons
- have no other drawbacks except not so great DPS but they have many other things to help them get over that
Blasters pre-Rev3 + Do alot of DPS
~ can't track small or fast targets
- Need tracking to hit stuff - Use (a lot) of cap to fire - have super short ranges (under 10km) - need 5-6 mil SP to use effectivly
Now let's look at Post-Rev3:
Torps Post-Rev3 + No cap useage + No tracking problems + only need about 3-4 mil SP to use effectivly + Do alot of DPS (roughly the same as blasters!!!)
~ have 30km range (thats worse then before but still 5 times more then blasters) ~ need a target painter to do full DPS (but blasters need a web to hit anything fast and that has a 10 times shorter range then a painter!)
- no drawbacks
Post-Rev3 Blasters are pretty much unchanged.
So lets compare:
Pre-Rev3 Blasters had a super short range but did a lot of DPS while using cap and being very speed and size dependant. Torps did much less DPS (about 1/3 less) but had a very high range compared to blasters and don't use any cap to fire.
Post-Rev3 Blasters have a super short range but still do the same amount of DPS and still use cap to fire. The torps now do the same DPS as blasters, with 30km range, no cap usage and nearly no other drawbacks.
This doesn't bring any balance! It's ten times worse then it was before! Instead of balancing the short-range BS guns so torps and blasters are about the same (if you look at all their pros and contras) you made blasters utterly obsolete with all the contras they used to have and removed all the contra-points from torps.
This makes me ask myself: What sense do blasters still have in BS sized combat? I mean the devs at CCP must have some kind of concept and some kind of idea as to how players are supposed to use blasters VS. torps VS. other weapon systems and i'd like to hear what they have planned for people that use blasters?
Currently on SiSi there is no good reason to use blasters over torps that I can see... is that the case or am i missing something? How did the Devs plan this to pan out?
Combined with the massive drone nerf, torp boost and the fact that damps have been made obsolete i really wonder what plan CCP has for gallente?
Yes Damps were overpowered, yes caldari need a boost but this is totally over the top and screws gallente and amarr totally (minmatar also but less because they use missiles to some extent and speed is still just as iWin as pre-rev3).
So whats the deal!?!
Edit: Yes i know it's been posted before and i don't give a damn. If you don't wanna read what i said then pls don't tell me about it. Also the idea is not that players start posting what they think is the truth.. i need a response from the people that actually planned and implemented this change.. they are the ones that think this is "good" so i want to know why. What scenraios are used to "balance" weapons and why the hell does it always seem that CCP is playing a totally different game then us? |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 12:59:00 -
[2]
Why should anybody use torps pre Rev 3?
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a51 duke1406
Order Of The Sentinel
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:23:00 -
[3]
Dont forget that you can pick your damage type with torps. This is the gallente nerf patch, anyway what is it, 60% of the games population are caldari, this makes people happy.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:27:00 -
[4]
Quote:
Originally by: Melor Rend less skills and no cap usage?
if you start a character from scratch it takes longer to train for torps doing comparable dps to blaster than if you go straight to large neutrons! (if you dontbelieve me check evemon:)
Quote: + Can hit faster targets better then large guns
- with a tech I torp you hit a 4k moving ishtar for 0.01 dmg
Quote:
+ only need about 3-4 mil SP to use effectivly
then you are not gonna squeeze blaster dps out of em.
Quote: - have no other drawbacks except not so great DPS but they have many other things to help them get over that
you never i
Quote:
Blasters pre-Rev3 + Do alot of DPS
still applies.
Quote: ~ can't track small or fast targets
neither can torps.
Quote: - Need tracking to hit stuff
missiles are affected by velocity and sigradius
Quote: - have super short ranges (under 10km)
missiles effective range is affected by the targets movement and speed. you never gonna achieve those 30k max range on a raven post rev 3 except shooting stationary targets.
Quote: - need 5-6 mil SP to use effectivly
same applies for torps if you want to do comparable blaster dmg.
Quote: Now let's look at Post-Rev3:
Torps Post-Rev3
+ No tracking problems
wrong missiles are affected by targets speed and sig radius.
Quote:
+ only need about 3-4 mil SP to use effectivly
wrong see above
Quote: + Do alot of DPS (roughly the same as blasters!!!)
true but the blaster botes have a huge dronebay to compensate.
Quote: ~ have 30km range (thats worse then before but still 5 times more then blasters)
see above
Quote: ~ need a target painter to do full DPS (but blasters need a web to hit anything fast and that has a 10 times shorter range then a painter!)
but teh web does not go to your tank slots
Quote:
- no drawbacks
lol
Quote: Post-Rev3 Blasters have a super short range but still do the same amount of DPS and still use cap to fire. The torps now do the same DPS as blasters, with 30km range, no cap usage and nearly no other drawbacks.
dont forget the drones AND your tackling/ewar slots
Quote: This doesn't bring any balance! It's ten times worse then it was before! Instead of balancing the short-range BS guns so torps and blasters are about the same (if you look at all their pros and contras) you made blasters utterly obsolete with all the contras they used to have and removed all the contra-points from torps.
+ Mega does equivalent dps to a Raven + Mega does better dmg to smaller and fast targets (tracking bonus + can fit a WEB!) + Mega can tackle while not gimping its tank
Quote: What sense do blasters still have in BS sized combat?
Same as now...
Quote: Currently on SiSi there is no good reason to use blasters over torps that I can see... is that the case or am i missing something? How did the Devs plan this to pan out?
I use alot with my raven a... |
Nyack
GREY COUNCIL Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:27:00 -
[5]
well u have to consider what ships the guns/torps are fitted to.
mega still got less mass, higher speed, agility and more drones. depends on how much bandwith the mega or hyperion is going to get and what drone bay size..
going by teh last statement amarr will also get great dronebays but lower bandwith making it possible to bring more utility drones and combat drones
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Melor Rend
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:28:00 -
[6]
Originally by: d026 Why should anybody use torps pre Rev 3?
- nearly 10 times better range then blasters - No cap usage - only 3 mil SP needed
But I know what you mean.
It's not that i don't think torps need a boost it's just that now they are boosted far to much.
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NeoTheo
Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:29:00 -
[7]
without being rube, if you think a torp can hit a target thats moving as speed any better than a blasterboat your i am afraid talking rubbish.
whilst torps dont have tracking, they DO have a explosion speed and there fore cant hit fasting moving targets.
/Theo.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:31:00 -
[8]
Quote: Blasters have super short ranges (under 10km)
My neutrons hit just fine at 17+16k on my rokh My neutrons hit just fine at 11+16k on my mega
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Melor Rend
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: d026 - with a tech I torp you hit a 4k moving ishtar for 0.01 dmg
And my blasters hit an ishtar better? lol at least you do 0,01 dmg.. i do 0,0 because of tracking.
I don't know why you are going all defensive d026.. i know you want your torps boosted and i agree that they do need a boost i'm just saying that it's totally over the top. Instead of making a battle mega VS. raven "fair" it's just as bad as it was pre-rev3 only that the raven is now the winner.
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Melor Rend
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: d026
Quote: Blasters have super short ranges (under 10km)
My neutrons hit just fine at 17+16k on my rokh My neutrons hit just fine at 11+16k on my mega
Yeah they hit but 17km is at the end of falloff so you don't hit well enough.
I really don't see the problem.. we both tested on SiSi and it's pretty clear it's not balanced imo.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:34:00 -
[11]
Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:36:44
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 Why should anybody use torps pre Rev 3?
- nearly 10 times better range then blasters - No cap usage - only 3 mil SP needed
But I know what you mean.
It's not that i don't think torps need a boost it's just that now they are boosted far to much.
you need much higher sp investement. ever tryed to fit a torp raven? awu V is your friend. besides as i allready pointed out with 3 mill in missiles you are going to be compettive againsta 6mil sp blaster specced pilot.
no cap usage but no tacklin.. fair tradeoff
we dont need 2 long range missile systems.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026
Quote: Blasters have super short ranges (under 10km)
My neutrons hit just fine at 17+16k on my rokh My neutrons hit just fine at 11+16k on my mega
Yeah they hit but 17km is at the end of falloff so you don't hit well enough.
I really don't see the problem.. we both tested on SiSi and it's pretty clear it's not balanced imo.
you are not goingto hit anything with torps if your target is moving away from you at specific distance. at least you can hit for 0.01 dmg!
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:39:00 -
[13]
Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:45:32 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:44:00
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 - with a tech I torp you hit a 4k moving ishtar for 0.01 dmg
And my blasters hit an ishtar better? lol at least you do 0,01 dmg.. i do 0,0 because of tracking.
I don't know why you are going all defensive d026.. i know you want your torps boosted and i agree that they do need a boost i'm just saying that it's totally over the top. Instead of making a battle mega VS. raven "fair" it's just as bad as it was pre-rev3 only that the raven is now the winner.
im not sure if you are the alt i think you are. but if you are our fights were extremely balanced in favour of my raven. but considering i have to go full tank while you can fit injector, web, scram you are so much more flexibel in your mega while still doing a ****load of dps whilst i am ONLY a dmg dealer who cant keep ****e in place..
also if you are the alt i think you are:) you have surgical strike IV whilst i have warhead upgrades V. Also we both were either dead or had like 10-40% structure left after each fight. I would say both ships are extremely balanced in the closerange area probably a lil bit in favour of the raven dmg and tank wise but on the other hand you have all those mids free for ew or tackling!
One thing i agree with you tough is that TII Rage Torps deserve a "little" nerf. But imho i feel completely comfortable my Raven beeing able to wtfbbq a Mega:)
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Stellar Vix
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:43:00 -
[14]
Trops take alot less skills/rigs than other missiles do, Traget Trajectory and guided missiles are null to torpedos and provide no benifits for them, thus target painters are needed to be maxed out instead.
SWA PVP |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 13:54:00 -
[15]
Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:56:28
Originally by: Stellar Vix Trops take alot less skills/rigs than other missiles do,
to get the full dmg and range out of torps you need arround 5.5mil sp. if you add the tp skills on top you need quite some ew skills which is another 1-2mil sp investement. so stfu with this torps are easy to train bull****e.
Quote: Traget Trajectory and guided missiles are null to torpedos and provide no benifits for them, thus target painters are needed to be maxed out instead.
Wrong Target Navigation Prediction applies to Guided AND Unguided Missiles!
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Melor Rend
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:02:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Melor Rend on 21/11/2007 14:07:11 Edited by: Melor Rend on 21/11/2007 14:03:55
Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:45:32 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:44:00
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 - with a tech I torp you hit a 4k moving ishtar for 0.01 dmg
And my blasters hit an ishtar better? lol at least you do 0,01 dmg.. i do 0,0 because of tracking.
I don't know why you are going all defensive d026.. i know you want your torps boosted and i agree that they do need a boost i'm just saying that it's totally over the top. Instead of making a battle mega VS. raven "fair" it's just as bad as it was pre-rev3 only that the raven is now the winner.
im not sure if you are the alt i think you are. but if you are our fights were extremely balanced in favour of my raven. but considering i have to go full tank while you can fit injector, web, scram you are so much more flexibel in your mega while still doing a ****load of dps whilst i am ONLY a dmg dealer who cant keep ****e in place..
also if you are the alt i think you are:) you have surgical strike IV whilst i have warhead upgrades V. Also we both were either dead or had like 10-40% structure left after each fight. I would say both ships are extremely balanced in the closerange area probably a lil bit in favour of the raven dmg and tank wise but on the other hand you have all those mids free for ew or tackling!
One thing i agree with you tough is that TII Rage Torps deserve a "little" nerf. But imho i feel completely comfortable my Raven beeing able to wtfbbq a Mega:)
I am the alt you think i am and i'd agree with you but the only problem is that most of our battles were pointless because we didn't start at high enough ranges. If we start at my optimal in webrange then it's very balanced as you said but as soon as i have to close 20km to get into optimal then you will remember that it wasn't that tight at all.
Anyway I don't really wanna argue about 2% more or less damage (ie. surgical strike 4 vs 5 etc.) i think the problem is much larger then this.
What I'd like is to hear CCP telling me how they planned the new torps to be balanced compared to blasters - not if a torp does +3% more DPS or not. If torps do the same DPS as a blaster with a longer range and no cap usage then this is a little strange no? Even the in-game description of blasters says that they do crazy DPS but only over very short ranges... now they actually only do a few % more DPS then torps but over 5 times less range. Thats what I don't understand.. how can that be balanced?
I'd probably be fine with the changes if the torps got +20% damage instead of +33%.. it's just that with the +33% damage AND all the advantages of torps over blasters it becomes a little overpowered.
So can anyone explain to me what advantage a blaster now has over a torp? It used to be tradeoff damage VS range.. now it's either "short range with good DPS" (Blasters) or "long range with good DPS and no cap-usage" (Torps). A little wierd no?
Sounds like anyone in their right mind would choose "long range with good DPS and no cap-usage" so that begs the question as to why you would use a weapon system that has more drawbacks with equal DPS at crappy range?
As I said before... it's not a huge imbalance.. if the tradeoff where "much DPS at short range" (blasters) VS. "15% less DPS with 20% more range" then it would be fair.
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LiBraga
Killjoy.
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:24:00 -
[17]
Do you understand how balance works ?
Balance isn't just mod comparisons. It's achived via looking at the ships that use the mods, other mods that are considered required and skills.
As already posted the advantage of blasters is that the mods that improve it ie webs etc don't affect your tank.
Now stop whining. --------------- What! Caldari have dps now... noooo Aye, T2 HAMs FTW!!!!! |
Melor Rend
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: d026 One thing i agree with you tough is that TII Rage Torps deserve a "little" nerf. But imho i feel completely comfortable my Raven beeing able to wtfbbq a Mega:)
Oh yeah thats another thing.. you wtfpwned my mega twice with t1 torps when i was using t2 guns even if we started at mega-friendly ranges (~15km) so i don't even wanna imagine how it will be if you use t2 torps and we start at 25km.
I guess we should go test tonight on sisi.
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Melor Rend
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: LiBraga Do you understand how balance works ?
Thats why I asked the people that are "balancing" this game to explain to me why they do things the way they do you genius.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:29:00 -
[20]
Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 14:31:31
Originally by: Melor Rend Edited by: Melor Rend on 21/11/2007 14:07:11 Edited by: Melor Rend on 21/11/2007 14:03:55
Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:45:32 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:44:00
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 - with a tech I torp you hit a 4k moving ishtar for 0.01 dmg
And my blasters hit an ishtar better? lol at least you do 0,01 dmg.. i do 0,0 because of tracking.
I don't know why you are going all defensive d026.. i know you want your torps boosted and i agree that they do need a boost i'm just saying that it's totally over the top. Instead of making a battle mega VS. raven "fair" it's just as bad as it was pre-rev3 only that the raven is now the winner.
im not sure if you are the alt i think you are. but if you are our fights were extremely balanced in favour of my raven. but considering i have to go full tank while you can fit injector, web, scram you are so much more flexibel in your mega while still doing a ****load of dps whilst i am ONLY a dmg dealer who cant keep ****e in place..
also if you are the alt i think you are:) you have surgical strike IV whilst i have warhead upgrades V. Also we both were either dead or had like 10-40% structure left after each fight. I would say both ships are extremely balanced in the closerange area probably a lil bit in favour of the raven dmg and tank wise but on the other hand you have all those mids free for ew or tackling!
One thing i agree with you tough is that TII Rage Torps deserve a "little" nerf. But imho i feel completely comfortable my Raven beeing able to wtfbbq a Mega:)
I am the alt you think i am and i'd agree with you but the only problem is that most of our battles were pointless because we didn't start at high enough ranges. If we start at my optimal in webrange then it's very balanced as you said but as soon as i have to close 20km to get into optimal then you will remember that it wasn't that tight at all.
Anyway I don't really wanna argue about 2% more or less damage (ie. surgical strike 4 vs 5 etc.) i think the problem is much larger then this.
What I'd like is to hear CCP telling me how they planned the new torps to be balanced compared to blasters - not if a torp does +3% more DPS or not. If torps do the same DPS as a blaster with a longer range and no cap usage then this is a little strange no? Even the in-game description of blasters says that they do crazy DPS but only over very short ranges... now they actually only do a few % more DPS then torps but over 5 times less range. Thats what I don't understand.. how can that be balanced?
I'd probably be fine with the changes if the torps got +20% damage instead of +33%.. it's just that with the +33% damage AND all the advantages of torps over blasters it becomes a little overpowered.
So can anyone explain to me what advantage a blaster now has over a torp? It used to be tradeoff damage VS range.. now it's either "short range with good DPS" (Blasters) or "long range with good DPS and no cap-usage" (Torps). A little wierd no?
Sounds like anyone in their right mind would choose "long range with good DPS and no cap-usage" so that begs the question as to why you would use a weapon system that has more drawbacks with equal DPS at crappy range?
As I said before... it's not a huge imbalance.. if the tradeoff where "much DPS at short range" (blasters) VS. "15% less DPS with 20% more range" then it would be fair.
Fit a tank on your mega and you are fine.. it just happens now that a gank mega < raven at +20k.. Also you would die right now engaging a raven w/ torps at 20-30k
To the post above. No i lost (you had lik 20-30% hull left) fighting with T1 torps.. only started to own you after using TII Rages.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:40:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 One thing i agree with you tough is that TII Rage Torps deserve a "little" nerf. But imho i feel completely comfortable my Raven beeing able to wtfbbq a Mega:)
Oh yeah thats another thing.. you wtfpwned my mega twice with t1 torps when i was using t2 guns even if we started at mega-friendly ranges (~15km) so i don't even wanna imagine how it will be if you use t2 torps and we start at 25km.
I guess we should go test tonight on sisi.
No i lost badly while using T1 torps.. I only started to own you after using TII Rages and a full tank setup but even then you always took me in structure. I have to mention i could have always warped away due to raven not able to fit a scram (if i had fitted one i just sacrificed this few 1000 hp that saved my butt).
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:41:00 -
[22]
Stop thinking Blasters are only about VOID!!
A megathron is the best BS to fight nanoships! With Null or any other random Faction ammo. Try fighting a nano ishtar in a raven. He wont kill you probably but you won be able to hurt him either. A mega will hurt him deeply. Blasters have GREAT tracking!
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar Universal Exports
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:42:00 -
[23]
again, nobody thinks about battleships with torps other than the raven. they are affected much more markedly by the range decrease ____________________
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.21 14:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:45:32 Edited by: d026 on 21/11/2007 13:44:00
Originally by: Melor Rend
Originally by: d026 - with a tech I torp you hit a 4k moving ishtar for 0.01 dmg
And my blasters hit an ishtar better? lol at least you do 0,01 dmg.. i do 0,0 because of tracking.
I don't know why you are going all defensive d026.. i know you want your torps boosted and i agree that they do need a boost i'm just saying that it's totally over the top. Instead of making a battle mega VS. raven "fair" it's just as bad as it was pre-rev3 only that the raven is now the winner.
im not sure if you are the alt i think you are. but if you are our fights were extremely balanced in favour of my raven. but considering i have to go full tank while you can fit injector, web, scram you are so much more flexibel in your mega while still doing a ****load of dps whilst i am ONLY a dmg dealer who cant keep ****e in place..
also if you are the alt i think you are:) you have surgical strike IV whilst i have warhead upgrades V. Also we both were either dead or had like 10-40% structure left after each fight. I would say both ships are extremely balanced in the closerange area probably a lil bit in favour of the raven dmg and tank wise but on the other hand you have all those mids free for ew or tackling!
One thing i agree with you tough is that TII Rage Torps deserve a "little" nerf. But imho i feel completely comfortable my Raven beeing able to wtfbbq a Mega:)
Just to add. If you accept the full tank and gank as a valid category, either a Maelstrom or Ababdon could most likely defeat both of the raven and Mega.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.21 16:38:00 -
[25]
Quote: as to explain to me why on earth ANYBODY should use t2 large blasters after rev3 when torps do just as much DPS with more range, less skills and no cap usage?
Please provide a list of which ships are agonizing over whether to drop their blasters in favor of seige launchers.
Right. None.
So the issue is, how do blaster ships stack up against the single sole ship (The raven) that may use torpedos in PvP?
As seen in this thread, they seem pretty comparable in damage, except that the raven, being a shield tanker, naturally has less utility than the armor tanked blaster boats.
I see nothing to complain about. If the raven has a slight damage edge, the blasterboat has a better versatility and is more likely to be an effective solo ship still.
You seem to have fallen prey to the "Gallente must be the absolute best at everything" belief. That's the only reason I can think of to explain why another ship being as effective in pure damage terms at short ranges as a blaster boat gets you all upset.
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oniplE
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.21 16:57:00 -
[26]
Edited by: oniplE on 21/11/2007 16:57:45
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote: as to explain to me why on earth ANYBODY should use t2 large blasters after rev3 when torps do just as much DPS with more range, less skills and no cap usage?
Please provide a list of which ships are agonizing over whether to drop their blasters in favor of seige launchers.
Right. None.
So the issue is, how do blaster ships stack up against the single sole ship (The raven) that may use torpedos in PvP?
As seen in this thread, they seem pretty comparable in damage, except that the raven, being a shield tanker, naturally has less utility than the armor tanked blaster boats.
I see nothing to complain about. If the raven has a slight damage edge, the blasterboat has a better versatility and is more likely to be an effective solo ship still.
You seem to have fallen prey to the "Gallente must be the absolute best at everything" belief. That's the only reason I can think of to explain why another ship being as effective in pure damage terms at short ranges as a blaster boat gets you all upset.
I think his problem is the a raven outdamaging a megathron, thats not how its supposed to be. Gallente does the damage, caldari get the missiles, minmatar get the speed and amarr gets the finger, thats the way it is right? :P
Anyway, would be nice if people could post some DPS stats on these new torps. x |
Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2007.11.21 17:46:00 -
[27]
I'm in favor of making torp ravens viable in pvp.. but blasters should still do more damage due to their short range, cap use, and inability to change damage types.
Really need to see the dps numbers though to compare.
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Hamcraft
Bombshell Cartel
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Posted - 2007.11.21 17:54:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Hamcraft on 21/11/2007 17:55:54 well look at it this way
right now, a megathron can tear thru a raven pretty easily, it just takes a minute to tackle it.
(the raven cannot stay out of range of the megathron long enough to take the advantage in battle, unless it is so far away it cannot put a point on the megathron, in which case the megathron will just warp out.)
after the patch, these ships will be closer to being equals. again though if the megathron closes the gap soon enough it'll dominate, and it really isn't hard to do with the lumbering raven.
also note that putting a target painter on a raven is devastating to its tank, unless it decides not to fit tackling or not to fit propulsion. in which case, its dead anyway.
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Natalie Jax
Indecision Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:13:00 -
[29]
Er, sounds to me like they did a pretty good job balancing things, really.
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JesterWiLD
Caldari Greenspring Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:23:00 -
[30]
currently I have 3 setups for my raven on sisi.
Setup #1: Tank raven With this raven I get about 650 dps (6 torps, 6.5rof, 720 dmg per missile). However, against no caldari ships, and anything smaller thana bs I dont get nearly that dps. Due to the fact that I dont have a target painter with this setup. And can tank about 600dps, for a short time, as long as its not em.
Setup #2: Midgrade With my midgrade setup I can get around 750-850 dmg range, depending on t1 or t2 torps. This setup again I have no target painter. A 500 dps tank.
Setup #3: Damage fit raven With a damage fitted raven I can pump out 860-950 dps, with t1 and t2 torps respectivly. However I can only tank about 500 dps for about 2 mins, till my cap is empty.
Now understand this. With a full armament of t2 torps my cap recharge rate drops by I believe its 25%. So that reduces the tank time on the first 2 setups by 3 mins before i need to start injecting on the second setup, and by 7 mins on the first setup.
Also, realize that on the first setup if I use rage torps I sometimes(anyone but caldari/shield tankers) do less dmg than t1 due to ships speed/sigradius.
All 3 setups have about 20m-40m in rigs. I have basically 2 empty high slots for each setup.
Mind you these are 3 of my best setups. And NONE of them can tackle. None have a mwd, scram, or web. So any nanno can pick me apart. =============================================================
Now, on my raven yes, i can hit up to 26k with t1 torps, t2 its 11-16k just like a t2 blaster. if I am not moving away or towards an enemy bs and they are less than 4k from me I wont hit thim with t2 torps, Unlike a blaster. I cannot hit drones With t2 torps even with a target painter, and the drone is a large. Hell I cant hit a jettisoned can target painted at 100m. Why? because tps dont help you hit, they help you do full dmg, something the other races dont have to worry about.
So when I own a mega starting at 20k with a raven I take it with a grain of salt. Id have done the same pre trinity with at 80km start range. When I can get a mega into structure in a fight starting a 5km im happy I didnt get killed with the damn mega having 100%armor. Id say thats balanced. when it can web me, making my torps possibly miss, and keep me from warping, and using a full bay of t2 heavy target jamming drones. -------------------------------------------------------------
Also, as someone else state. No one in their right mind is gona use torps in pvp other than a phoon and a raven. In my rokh, t1 torps only go 17km, and t2's out to about 12km if im lucky with the same problems I mentioned earlier.
PS: a mega gets torp slots and can usem if it thinks its worth it... but it doesnt cause they suck on non ravens. Cause they are balanced. so stop crying and see ur the only gallente crying. :P
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ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:52:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Melor Rend
- need 5-6 mil SP to use effectivly
this made me lol, thanks for making my day a bit better
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Danjira Ryuujin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.21 18:56:00 -
[32]
Originally by: oniplE
I think his problem is the a raven outdamaging a megathron, thats not how its supposed to be.
Yeah, I think someones E-peen got injured.
Amarr - Annoying the Eve Community since 2005 |
Satura
Mucho Dolor
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:09:00 -
[33]
A raven will not be able to gank a mega, and if he tryes, his tank will be crap. Wich means Megathrons are still better. With no EW in mids, sure, raven wins vs any t2 no jamming (and stuff like that) mega setup, but as soon as you take a web and a scrambler, the tank fails. In gangs they will be equally usefull imo. |
Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:11:00 -
[34]
Originally by: JesterWiLD currently I have 3 setups for my raven on sisi.
Setup #1: Tank raven With this raven I get about 650 dps (6 torps, 6.5rof, 720 dmg per missile). However, against no caldari ships, and anything smaller thana bs I dont get nearly that dps. Due to the fact that I dont have a target painter with this setup. And can tank about 600dps, for a short time, as long as its not em.
Setup #2: Midgrade With my midgrade setup I can get around 750-850 dmg range, depending on t1 or t2 torps. This setup again I have no target painter. A 500 dps tank.
Setup #3: Damage fit raven With a damage fitted raven I can pump out 860-950 dps, with t1 and t2 torps respectivly. However I can only tank about 500 dps for about 2 mins, till my cap is empty.
Now understand this. With a full armament of t2 torps my cap recharge rate drops by I believe its 25%. So that reduces the tank time on the first 2 setups by 3 mins before i need to start injecting on the second setup, and by 7 mins on the first setup.
Also, realize that on the first setup if I use rage torps I sometimes(anyone but caldari/shield tankers) do less dmg than t1 due to ships speed/sigradius.
All 3 setups have about 20m-40m in rigs. I have basically 2 empty high slots for each setup.
Mind you these are 3 of my best setups. And NONE of them can tackle. None have a mwd, scram, or web. So any nanno can pick me apart. =============================================================
Now, on my raven yes, i can hit up to 26k with t1 torps, t2 its 11-16k just like a t2 blaster. if I am not moving away or towards an enemy bs and they are less than 4k from me I wont hit thim with t2 torps, Unlike a blaster. I cannot hit drones With t2 torps even with a target painter, and the drone is a large. Hell I cant hit a jettisoned can target painted at 100m. Why? because tps dont help you hit, they help you do full dmg, something the other races dont have to worry about.
So when I own a mega starting at 20k with a raven I take it with a grain of salt. Id have done the same pre trinity with at 80km start range. When I can get a mega into structure in a fight starting a 5km im happy I didnt get killed with the damn mega having 100%armor. Id say thats balanced. when it can web me, making my torps possibly miss, and keep me from warping, and using a full bay of t2 heavy target jamming drones. -------------------------------------------------------------
Also, as someone else state. No one in their right mind is gona use torps in pvp other than a phoon and a raven. In my rokh, t1 torps only go 17km, and t2's out to about 12km if im lucky with the same problems I mentioned earlier.
PS: a mega gets torp slots and can usem if it thinks its worth it... but it doesnt cause they suck on non ravens. Cause they are balanced. so stop crying and see ur the only gallente crying. :P
Phoons have the same range as your rokh so all us minnie dread pilots now effectively have a useless skill with torps 5 unless we cross train oh joy.
To the OP with regards to speed being i-win in eve BS dont really do speed anymore so minnie BS dont work too well especially as they wont be able to snipe after this patch, yes the vaga is nice but tbh ishtar is much nicer vs many targets. Gallente for a long time now have had some of the best tanks and some huge DPS to go with it while tackling its time for a change im just disappointed its not amarr (and i dont have a single amarr char).
New torps could do with a bit of tweaking however and as a phoon pilot i would like to see a tad more range at a slight DPS hit
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:18:00 -
[35]
Apples and Oranges.
However you can throw the oranges much further with no real effort and they hit people almost as hard as apples do.
So why use apples?
I will add that Torps needed this kind of change, I just think they have been buffed a little too far.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
JesterWiLD
Caldari Greenspring Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:27:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Random Womble
Phoons have the same range as your rokh so all us minnie dread pilots now effectively have a useless skill with torps 5 unless we cross train oh joy.
True but the phoon can still fit an ab, a web and a injector, and have a tank allowing it to get in range and still have a decent tank to play with. Were as a raven cant do that.
Its all about how you setup ur ship. Sure a raven can do a theoretical 1200 dps now, but will you ever see it? no. Just like its possible to have a abbo with a capital shield booster. but your not really gona see it why? cause though its possible it wont work really in pvp.
So yes the phoon gets a hardcore tank and uber dmg fit shafted, but throw on some tackle gear, armor tank and its still a good viable setup.
Besides most pvp take place within 20k. and a thrawn is still gona try to get into the 2km range, so let ur enemy come to you. Phoon is still better for dmg than the rokh with torps due to a rokh can only fit 4 torps.
Nothing is nerfed. It just takes a diffrent setup. No one ship is nerfed just certain setups.
Only time these torps are overpowerd is when the user has crystal implants. But thats a completly diffrent story.
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Veng3ance
Prophets Of a Damned Universe
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:34:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Veng3ance on 21/11/2007 19:34:14
If I hear one more peson say "Electronic warfare on the mega" im gonna ****en hunt you down and you won't be having any children for the sake of saving us the stupidity in the future.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.21 19:37:00 -
[38]
Originally by: JesterWiLD
Originally by: Random Womble
Phoons have the same range as your rokh so all us minnie dread pilots now effectively have a useless skill with torps 5 unless we cross train oh joy.
True but the phoon can still fit an ab, a web and a injector, and have a tank allowing it to get in range and still have a decent tank to play with. Were as a raven cant do that.
Its all about how you setup ur ship. Sure a raven can do a theoretical 1200 dps now, but will you ever see it? no. Just like its possible to have a abbo with a capital shield booster. but your not really gona see it why? cause though its possible it wont work really in pvp.
So yes the phoon gets a hardcore tank and uber dmg fit shafted, but throw on some tackle gear, armor tank and its still a good viable setup.
Besides most pvp take place within 20k. and a thrawn is still gona try to get into the 2km range, so let ur enemy come to you. Phoon is still better for dmg than the rokh with torps due to a rokh can only fit 4 torps.
Nothing is nerfed. It just takes a diffrent setup. No one ship is nerfed just certain setups.
Only time these torps are overpowerd is when the user has crystal implants. But thats a completly diffrent story.
Serious the phoon has never ever had the PG for fitting a hardcore tank even putting out average DPS using 425mms and cruise launchers iirc its a bit of a struggle but fitting siege it really hurts but thats a complete diffrent matter.
Just a quick point about phoons bonuses also they are atm effectively like having 1 bonus to one of the 8 turreted ships to really make them in line they should be 7.5% rather than 5%.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.21 20:01:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Random Womble
Originally by: JesterWiLD
Originally by: Random Womble
Phoons have the same range as your rokh so all us minnie dread pilots now effectively have a useless skill with torps 5 unless we cross train oh joy.
True but the phoon can still fit an ab, a web and a injector, and have a tank allowing it to get in range and still have a decent tank to play with. Were as a raven cant do that.
Its all about how you setup ur ship. Sure a raven can do a theoretical 1200 dps now, but will you ever see it? no. Just like its possible to have a abbo with a capital shield booster. but your not really gona see it why? cause though its possible it wont work really in pvp.
So yes the phoon gets a hardcore tank and uber dmg fit shafted, but throw on some tackle gear, armor tank and its still a good viable setup.
Besides most pvp take place within 20k. and a thrawn is still gona try to get into the 2km range, so let ur enemy come to you. Phoon is still better for dmg than the rokh with torps due to a rokh can only fit 4 torps.
Nothing is nerfed. It just takes a diffrent setup. No one ship is nerfed just certain setups.
Only time these torps are overpowerd is when the user has crystal implants. But thats a completly diffrent story.
Serious the phoon has never ever had the PG for fitting a hardcore tank even putting out average DPS using 425mms and cruise launchers iirc its a bit of a struggle but fitting siege it really hurts but thats a complete diffrent matter.
Just a quick point about phoons bonuses also they are atm effectively like having 1 bonus to one of the 8 turreted ships to really make them in line they should be 7.5% rather than 5%.
Not exactly. Because the phoon also has more bonused guns and drone power than other ships of its class (tier 1). So the final result in compable DPS when you don't fit damage mods. What split weapon system result is, that damage mods are way less effective since each one affect only 4 slots at a time.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.21 21:10:00 -
[40]
Originally by: LiBraga Do you understand how balance works ?
Balance isn't just mod comparisons. It's achived via looking at the ships that use the mods, other mods that are considered required and skills.
As already posted the advantage of blasters is that the mods that improve it ie webs etc don't affect your tank.
Now stop whining.
So torps are used only on Raven and only by Caldari?
And blaster only on Meghatron and only by Gallente?
Balance must be done for the weapons. By your reasoning blaster are underpowered when used on a Rokh as it is not gang friendly.
And torps would be overpowered when used on a armor thanked ship.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.21 21:21:00 -
[41]
Originally by: JesterWiLD
Now, on my raven yes, i can hit up to 26k with t1 torps, t2 its 11-16k just like a t2 blaster. if I am not moving away or towards an enemy bs and they are less than 4k from me I wont hit thim with t2 torps, Unlike a blaster. I cannot hit drones With t2 torps even with a target painter, and the drone is a large. Hell I cant hit a jettisoned can target painted at 100m. Why? because tps dont help you hit, they help you do full dmg, something the other races dont have to worry about.
So explain it again slowly: how you miss a stationary target at 4k km with torpedoes?
Or anything not orbiting you very fast?
I can hit stationary targets at 0 KM with torps or missiles, while a blaster will missi forever when the range is 0.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.21 21:35:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Veng3ance Edited by: Veng3ance on 21/11/2007 19:34:14
If I hear one more peson say "Electronic warfare on the mega" im gonna ****en hunt you down and you won't be having any children for the sake of saving us the stupidity in the future.
you COULD easily replace your scram with any other mod you wish! you just dont want to tuch your cooky cutter setup!
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F90OEX
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Posted - 2007.11.21 21:46:00 -
[43]
OP seems to be talking out his ass, go and try pvp in a Torp Raven when Rev 3 hits and lets see your K/D ratio and come back and lets talk. Raven comes with lots of pros and cons just like the Mega, there just different. One of the big cons with a raven is having 2 empty high slots since Siege II launchers take up so much PG and CPU, so you can't fit NOS or Neuts, or really anything what would be of practical use. Also look at the drone bay last time I checked you could not fit 5 Ogre II drones.
And lastly, its not the players who have asked for this change, its CCP's own doing, with training and using /testing the torp Raven for pvp on a night bases for the last 8months , If I was asked to change it or leave it the way it is now on TQ, I would have voted to no change it, for various reason. Yes its nice having the better ROF etc , but it does come at a price...
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2007.11.21 22:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: a51 duke1406 Dont forget that you can pick your damage type with torps. This is the gallente nerf patch, anyway what is it, 60% of the games population are caldari, this makes people happy.
which doesnt mean every caldari race pilot is specced for caldari ships, shields and missiles
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.21 22:12:00 -
[45]
Quote: This is the gallente nerf patch, anyway what is it, 60% of the games population are caldari, this makes people happy.
Oh yeah, and whoever said this is a raging ******, as the number isn't even close to 60%.
But then, all the people arguing that this is some big gallente nerf don't seem that bright, so should hardly be surprised, I suppose.
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2007.11.21 22:12:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Wu Jiun on 21/11/2007 22:15:25
Originally by: d026 no cap usage but no tacklin.. fair tradeoff
Hihi. Thats the most funny thing i've read in the past few weeks. You cannot really be serious especially given that amarr bs can't really tackle either in contrast to say a megathron.
I don't blame you as you want a wtfuberdmg raven in the same way i want a overpowered geddon or abaddon. But calling this balance with such awkward arguments is a bit meh.
Edit: Whats next? arbitrary dmg type vs. torp travel time in closerange? lol
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.21 22:20:00 -
[47]
Quote: You cannot really be serious
Of course he can. If a raven and megathron do equal damages at close range, but the megathron can fit both tackle and tank, while the raven cannot, then I really see nothing to complain about.
I mean, it would be *nice* if the Raven were just as good as the megathron at solopwn, but I'll be happy for incremental steps that leave it a 'good second'.
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Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.21 22:42:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Kal Shakai on 21/11/2007 22:45:15 Edited by: Kal Shakai on 21/11/2007 22:44:33 Can we please have just one torpedo whine thread and make it a sticky or something?
How many times do we have to rehash this?
They have announced that the changes are going to happen and are final as they stand now.
1) Realistically, Ravens will do less dps than a Mega but can change damage types. 2) If the Raven is tackling his tank is gonna suck. 3) The Raven won't be able to fit any utility slots and is therefore weak in close range battles compared to other ships with a higher PG. 4) The Typhoon is gonna be hurt without a range bonus.
The bottom line is that your going to see a lot more Ravens being used for fire support in gangs. I doubt anyone is going to solo gank with them.
Everyone better get used to it and adapt.
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Flare Fire
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:02:00 -
[49]
Anyone have a link to where the change announcement info is?
Thanks in advanced
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Valerax Orion
Fourth Circle Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:04:00 -
[50]
tl;dr anything but "Why use blasters when torps are just as good." the stupidity should have ended there. Remember kids; it's not necrophilia if the guy had a snake set! |
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Bohoba
Caldari The Dragons Den
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:13:00 -
[51]
The raven will still get owned by the mega on a 1vs1 the two heavy drone by in a raven is a joke
the Golm a 1 bill ship is the only thing I seen to take a mega out 1bill T2 ship to finaly defeat the mighty mega a 90 mill ship YEP thats what I call game balance
The Dark Force is strong in EvE But it will fail
Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all |
Elmicker
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:18:00 -
[52]
1v1, yeah, the mega will probably win, however, the armour-tanked, remote-repping torp ravens will now reign supreme for gangs. 2 utility slots for remote reps, same dps as a blaster mega, 3-5 slots for resists (depending on fitting mods) and then all 6 meds left for painters and whatever EW becomes FOTM. ****s all over the mega and domi, who used to be the best ships for it. They have to skimp on guns just to get a semi-respectable fit together and then have nothing left for EW.
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:18:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Bohoba The raven will still get owned by the mega on a 1vs1 the two heavy drone by in a raven is a joke
the Golm a 1 bill ship is the only thing I seen to take a mega out 1bill T2 ship to finaly defeat the mighty mega a 90 mill ship YEP thats what I call game balance
On Sisi, I've been able to just about perma jam all the Marauder class ships with just 5 medium ecm drones. I wouldn't want to face a Mega that had a flight of these handy.
I've made a lot of Megas run with my Raven but I can't hold anyone down.
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The D
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:26:00 -
[54]
So how is it if a raven fits a web/scram/whatever its tank "sucks" but if a Mega does it still has "full tank"?
The raven does full dmg at max range no matter the ammo type, and can choose dmg type.
The mega has poor DPS if it has to start using longer range ammo, and is doing crappy dmg at falloff which means that for similar dmg to the raven it has next to no range.
The fact that the raven has 2 empty highs is a red herring, it is still doing more DPS with its 6 launchers than the mega is with its 7 guns, so this is irrelevant. You won't find much to cram into the mega's spare high either.
The mega with an MWD, scram, web, target painter, whatever else stuffed into its 4 mids, has 7 lows left for armour reps, hardeners, dmg mods, cap mods.
The raven can get away without an MWD with a 30km range, so lets say 3 mids of scram/web/etc, but it still has 3 mids and 4 lows to fit for shield boosters, hardeners, cap mods, dmg mods.
There isnt much in it imho, the mega wont be running much of a tank with no cap especially if you have an mwd halving your cap, and the raven wont be running much of a tank with 3 tank slots and 4 cap/dmg slots.
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JesterWiLD
Caldari Greenspring Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:47:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Elmicker 1v1, yeah, the mega will probably win, however, the armour-tanked, remote-repping torp ravens will now reign supreme for gangs. 2 utility slots for remote reps, same dps as a blaster mega, 3-5 slots for resists (depending on fitting mods) and then all 6 meds left for painters and whatever EW becomes FOTM. ****s all over the mega and domi, who used to be the best ships for it. They have to skimp on guns just to get a semi-respectable fit together and then have nothing left for EW.
After this most idiotic of post im going to have to stop discusing this. A raven even with these new torps cannot do the damage of a mega without using 2 to 3 dmg mods so it cannot armor tank. The suggestion of a raven armor tank is about as dumb as dumb gets. with 6 t2 siege lanchers the raven has barely enough pg to fit full 6 mids slots, let alone a large t2 armor rep. And remote repping? are you serious? you need to be taken behind the CCP shed and shot. I dont even think its possible to fit 6t2 seige and 2 remote reps and have pg left for any kind of a tank.
Seriously you shouldnt talk about ship setups that you havent even seen let alone put together and flown.
Mega: High dps, great tank, mwd, cap injector. Raven: High dps, ok tank, good range.
hmm, so the mega can tackle the raven cant. The raven can take down the mega given the right surcumstances, but cant keep the mega in the fight...... mega if its going to win can hold the raven in place........ Sounds pretty D*** fair to me. Or at least better than, mega meets raven... mega tanks raven.... mega warp scrambles raven.... raven goes pop. wich is what it used to be.
Oh and cry more that the gallente arnt the best thing for blobbing, 1v1, and anything else but ewar anymore. Im starting to shed tears for you its sooooo unbalanced. WAAA!!!
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:49:00 -
[56]
Originally by: The D
So how is it if a raven fits a web/scram/whatever its tank "sucks" but if a Mega does it still has "full tank"?
Remember that a Raven will need a target painter to do full damage now also. If your going to tackle someone in a Raven you will need a MWD, Cap Booster, Web and Scram at a minimum. Now add a target painter for max damage. Not much left don't you think? Balance the Raven, add two mid slots! No, seriously, you can't tackle and shield tank. Armor tanks suck unless you gimp the damage.
Originally by: The D
The raven does full dmg at max range no matter the ammo type, and can choose dmg type.
The mega has poor DPS if it has to start using longer range ammo, and is doing crappy dmg at falloff which means that for similar dmg to the raven it has next to no range.
This argument is the red herring. The Mega is going to close quickly and tackle any reasonably tanked Raven.
Originally by: The D
The fact that the raven has 2 empty highs is a red herring, it is still doing more DPS with its 6 launchers than the mega is with its 7 guns, so this is irrelevant. You won't find much to cram into the mega's spare high either.
Not a fact. The raven will not do more damage than a Mega. That is pure propaganda.
Originally by: The D
The mega with an MWD, scram, web, target painter, whatever else stuffed into its 4 mids, has 7 lows left for armour reps, hardeners, dmg mods, cap mods.
The raven can get away without an MWD with a 30km range, so lets say 3 mids of scram/web/etc, but it still has 3 mids and 5 lows to fit for shield boosters, hardeners, cap mods, dmg mods.
There isnt much in it imho, the mega wont be running much of a tank with no cap especially if you have an mwd halving your cap, and the raven wont be running much of a tank with 3 tank slots and 5 cap/dmg slots.
See previous remarks.
You may not easily beat the Raven anymore in a Mega, but if you lose one to a Raven your gonna get laughed right out of here.
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Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:02:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Solokar
You may not easily beat the Raven anymore in a Mega, but if you lose one to a Raven your gonna get laughed right out of here.
Pure pwn. Thread finished. Nothing to see here.
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Veng3ance
Prophets Of a Damned Universe
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:04:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Veng3ance on 22/11/2007 00:06:38
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Veng3ance Edited by: Veng3ance on 21/11/2007 19:34:14
If I hear one more peson say "Electronic warfare on the mega" im gonna ****en hunt you down and you won't be having any children for the sake of saving us the stupidity in the future.
you COULD easily replace your scram with any other mod you wish! you just dont want to tuch your cooky cutter setup!
Honestly man, for the most part you make good posts. But wtf kind of response is that?
You know damn well that no megathron pilots fit ECM and sensor damps in their spare-mids like has been suggested. Gimme a break.
And no I wont be taking off my web, MWD, or cap booster they are basically required fit on any blaster setup.
Ontop of this, as people have pointed out, you can fit two nos in the highs for a raven even with siege (at least 1 heavy 1 med, if not 2 heavy (awu 5). While an ion or neutron blaster megathron leaves its extra high empty.
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Elmicker
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:11:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Elmicker on 22/11/2007 00:11:10
Originally by: JesterWiLD A raven even with these new torps cannot do the damage of a mega without using 2 to 3 dmg mods so it cannot armor tank.
And a mega fitting for a similar situation can't fit any more than one damage mod, while being limited to under 10km and kin/therm damage.
Quote: The suggestion of a raven armor tank is about as dumb as dumb gets. with 6 t2 siege lanchers the raven has barely enough pg to fit full 6 mids slots, let alone a large t2 armor rep.
Congratulations on your reading comprehension. I never said large armour rep, i said resists. The idea is no one local tanks, rather they rely on remote repping from each other.
Quote: And remote repping? are you serious?
Yes, quite.
Quote: Seriously you shouldnt talk about ship setups that you havent even seen let alone put together and flown.
And what're you basing that assumption off? I've flown both remote rep megas and remote rep ravens. I've got experience with both on sisi, too.
Quote: hmm, so the mega can tackle the raven cant.
The raven can, if you armour tank it.
Quote: 1v1 pap
The context of it was a gang fight, not a 1v1. 1v1 BS fights never happen.
Quote: Oh and cry more that the gallente arnt the best thing for blobbing, 1v1, and anything else but ewar anymore. Im starting to shed tears for you its sooooo unbalanced. WAAA!!!
My skills are equally split caldari/gallente. I'm equally competent in both their battleships. Why would I be crying that one of my favourite ships just recieved a massive boost?
And since you seem so adamant that a remote rep setup just won't fit, here's a sample gang setup for you.
Reactor Control Unit II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II x2 Armor Explosive Hardener II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I Warp Disruptor II Target Painter II Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I Sensor Booster II
Siege Missile Launcher II x6 Large 'Solace' I Remote Bulwark Reconstruction x2
Ancillary Current Router I Trimark Armor Pump I x2
That gives nearly 11k armour (before gang) with 80/72/62/77 resists. 2 of those remote reps on one of these ravens gives 600 dps tanked. You'll normally end up with upwards of 15 of these things on you, at which point you're out-tanking capitals. All the while each ship will be dealing very high dps (800?) out at 30km with selectable damage types. No other ship can come anywhere close to this level of effectiveness in a bs gang.
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JesterWiLD
Caldari Greenspring Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:23:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Veng3ance
Honestly man, for the most part you make good posts. But wtf kind of response is that?
You know damn well that no megathron pilots fit ECM and sensor damps in their spare-mids like has been suggested. Gimme a break.
And no I wont be taking off my web, MWD, or cap booster they are basically required fit on any blaster setup.
Ontop of this, as people have pointed out, you can fit two nos in the highs for a raven even with siege (at least 1 heavy 1 med, if not 2 heavy (awu 5). While an ion or neutron blaster megathron leaves its extra high empty.
fitting 2 heavy nos on a raven is possible but you kill the dps by about 150 points a second if not more. Also 2 heavy nos does nothing to help a raven, and very little to hurt ur opponent seeing as how most ravens are sustained active, so their cap will never get to 0.0 to 0 out the target cap. So to quote you "gimmie a break".
actually its quite easy for a thron to take out 1 neutron and put 2 t2 sieges in place. if yall think sieges are overpowered why not right? and i have rarely seen a thron with its last high empty. that high is usually filled with a drone enhancement for you 5!! t2 heavy drones wich is more help than 2 nos will do to a raven.
Also if you make those 5 t2 drones ewar drones then OMG you got an ewar blasterthron wich is sooo possible and often done. thats the possibility to target lock a raven at 40+ km while you move in a raven cant do that nearly as well if at all. so thron still owns raven. and thats a raven with level 5 in basically all respective stats. i dont see a balance issue.
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:37:00 -
[61]
loled
ow HELL NO!!! caldari getting something usefull for PVP ?! O.o and gallente not being the only solo panage mobiles?! WTF IS HAPPENING HERE!!! :P
loled
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:50:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Veng3ance Edited by: Veng3ance on 22/11/2007 00:06:38
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Veng3ance Edited by: Veng3ance on 21/11/2007 19:34:14
If I hear one more peson say "Electronic warfare on the mega" im gonna ****en hunt you down and you won't be having any children for the sake of saving us the stupidity in the future.
you COULD easily replace your scram with any other mod you wish! you just dont want to tuch your cooky cutter setup!
Honestly man, for the most part you make good posts. But wtf kind of response is that?
You know damn well that no megathron pilots fit ECM and sensor damps in their spare-mids like has been suggested. Gimme a break.
And no I wont be taking off my web, MWD, or cap booster they are basically required fit on any blaster setup.
i know that mega pilots usualy fit web/scram. but honestly in a gang you rarely gonna tackle anything anyway considering your a bs and have to compete with cruisers and frigs, so the only thing your scram is usualy good for is delivering point number 50 5 mins afetr all ceptors and cruisers allready put theyrs on. so while not flying solo you have 1-2 free mids you could use for sensor boosters, damps, ecm, tracking comps whilst still havig almost identical tank and gank compared to the raven. at the end the mega is just so much more versatile than the raven. but if you you really need the scram then so bee it and next time our gangs pass each other my mega is so gonna trackingdisrupt you that you wont be having any chlidren anymore:)
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LUH 3471
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:21:00 -
[63]
either buff blaster damage or reduce torp damage slightly then it will be just fine
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:29:00 -
[64]
Originally by: LUH 3471 either buff blaster damage or reduce torp damage slightly then it will be just fine
It's fine now. There really isn't much comparison in practice imo. The EFT warriors need to diaf.
This game is about situations not stats.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:57:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 22/11/2007 02:01:58
Quick question, I don't have all my usual stats with me and it's nearly 2am here.
Approximate damage at 25km vs a stationary target:
Hyperion 8x 425mm, 3x MagStab, Javelin = 760 8x Neutrons, 3x MagStab, Null = 500
Maelstrom 8x 1400mm Howitzer, 3x Gyro, Quake = 625 8x 800m Repeating, 3x Gyro, Barrage = 610
Abaddon 8x Tachyon, 3x Heatsink, Gleam = 780 8x Megapulse, 3x Heatsink, Scortch = 725
Raven 6x Siege, 3x BCU, Faction Torps = What?
Ignore signature resolution and assume the target is a freighter or heavily painted ship. What kind of damage are we talking about here?
Also feel free to correct my numbers... like I said it's 2am.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.22 02:11:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 22/11/2007 02:01:58
Quick question, I don't have all my usual stats with me and it's nearly 2am here.
Approximate damage at 25km vs a stationary target:
Hyperion 8x 425mm, 3x MagStab, Javelin = 760 8x Neutrons, 3x MagStab, Null = 500
Maelstrom 8x 1400mm Howitzer, 3x Gyro, Quake = 625 8x 800m Repeating, 3x Gyro, Barrage = 610
Abaddon 8x Tachyon, 3x Heatsink, Gleam = 780 8x Megapulse, 3x Heatsink, Scortch = 725
Raven 6x Siege, 3x BCU, Faction Torps = What?
Ignore signature resolution and assume the target is a freighter or heavily painted ship. What kind of damage are we talking about here?
Also feel free to correct my numbers... like I said it's 2am.
I think it will come in at about 800+ (guessing) without implants or drones.
But, I think you just hit it's role right on the head. Pure fire support, no tackling, etc.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.22 10:32:00 -
[67]
Not much fitting room on any of the other ships mentioned with those modules fitted either.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 10:39:00 -
[68]
Edited by: d026 on 22/11/2007 10:42:18 Edited by: d026 on 22/11/2007 10:39:54
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 22/11/2007 02:01:58
Raven 6x Siege, 3x BCU, Faction Torps = What?
that depends completely on the targets sig radius.
sig radius over 450 = full dps sig radius lets say 150 (cruiser) = 67% dmg reduction sig radius frig 50 = 90% damage reduction
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.22 11:04:00 -
[69]
If you really want to cry - compare a Trinity Raven against a Blasterthron against an Autopest.....its been months since I have seen an autopest in a gang.
I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet.
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Shidousha
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Posted - 2007.11.22 11:20:00 -
[70]
60% of the players are caldari - obviously playing caldari is far too convenient. Let's nerf Caldari until they only make 25% of the population as they should!
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Kal Shakai
Dominus Imperium
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Posted - 2007.11.22 11:25:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Shidousha 60% of the players are caldari - obviously playing caldari is far too convenient. Let's nerf Caldari until they only make 25% of the population as they should!
Nerfing their ships won't work. Nerfing the starting attributes of the Achura is the only way to fix that problem.
Oh wait...damn.
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Gragnor
Ordos Humanitas Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.22 13:13:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Gragnor on 22/11/2007 13:14:38 The only issue I have with missiles is the 100% hit for every shot. While damage is not maximized per shot, its the 100% hit that distorts everything. The other issue is the lack of a viable counter; for turrets its tracking disrupters (even if they have been nerfed0. For drones, its the smart bomb which can kill them fairly quickly. The only viable counter to missiles is ECM and Caldari is the ECM race.
In addition, the use of FoF's is very distorting as you can jam a missile ship but it can still shoot.
If CCP could introduce some kind of anti-missile system, it would be fairer. Perhaps, chaff for Minmitar (use the snowball launcher as an example, which gives a chance to decoy a missile away. What about decoy drones which have a chance to seduce a missile away from a target towards themselves?
Then missiles are no longer the 100% hit, variable damage devices and some balance is achieved.
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.22 13:22:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 22/11/2007 13:23:58 Some sort of high or midslot antimissile module would balance things, yes. Currently the only antimissile system in the game (defenders)
a) doesn't work, generally b) requires a launcher slot, which is screwy
Maybe fix defenders so that they actually work (vs torps, too), and make a new defender-only launcher that can be fitted into any highslot.
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NeoTheo
Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 14:48:00 -
[74]
Yes torps are gonna do more damage, but for crying out loud look a the ships as a whole.
1. Speed. a raven is a FAT slug, if you fit a MWD your loosing a tank slot. period.
2. if you fit a painter (and torp pretty much need them not to suc arse), you loose another tank slot, leaving the raven with...
1. a relativly squishy tank that has not room for cap injection. 2. fit a cap injector and have next to no tank at all.
a mega will be able to tank better, and also fit appropriate modules in the midle slots to fit the situation.
the mega is more flexible and the mega can also field drones to a far greater extent than the raven (5 mediums, with a total of 7 in the bay).
looking at EFT numbers is entertaining but not exactly a good idea.
I am caldari all the way, all 20 million skillpoints, however i am STILL cross training in to galente as frankly the flexibility of the gal ships totally rocks.
/Theo.
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FawKa
Gallente x13
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Posted - 2007.11.22 14:55:00 -
[75]
I wonder if ppl forget that %-potential guns have over launchers when thinking of wrecking hits etc. Sure Raven gets nice dps at stabile dmg. If fitted right etc and calculating wreckings etc. Shouldnt guns still have more dps?
Anyways, I think its a fine change. I actually miss the raven and the torpedoes in gang battle. Oh, and it buff's my Phoon aswell ^^
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NeoTheo
Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 14:57:00 -
[76]
and oh,,, btw, the next person to mention fof's fails.
(given that there is no FoF for torps as far as i am aware).
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND
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Posted - 2007.11.22 15:36:00 -
[77]
I would prefer to see torps changed to around 80m/s base explosion velocity so that they can't hit moving targets that well outside web range, but then also change is so that a target moving slower than the explosion velocity suffers a penalty to explosion radius, just like a 400m sig res gun can hit a non-moving 40m sig frigate if the transversal is low enough.
This would make it so that torps at close range would track anything webbed quite well, but even a battleship with an afterburner could negate most of the damage outside web range.
I just think explosion velocity should be the limiter instead of explosion radius.
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Dracorimus
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.11.22 15:39:00 -
[78]
Sup, did your solopwnmobile get nerfed? I'm very happy torps are much better now and blasterthrons won't be the only solopwnmobiles in game....
I'm amarr specced and I can tell you its a good change -
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 15:45:00 -
[79]
Edited by: d026 on 22/11/2007 15:47:00
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
This would make it so that torps at close range would track anything webbed quite well, but even a battleship with an afterburner could negate most of the damage outside web range.
HOW in the right mind would that be balanced? Besides Rage torps allready have 150m explo velocity..- thus a mega moving 450m/s with a ab would allready negate ****load of dps againsta TIi torp raven..
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.22 23:19:00 -
[80]
Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius!
No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial.
You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number.
The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948
Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.22 23:42:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 22/11/2007 23:43:23 Honestly, all large shortrange turret DPS is underpowered for todays needs. This isn't specifically a blaster nerf, because quite frankly Abaddon, Megathron and Hyperion are still amongst the best shortrange hulls around - to the point where they're equally if not more desirable as SiSi Torpravens.
There are two underlying problems here though: 1. Shortrange are underpowered, by suffering from the tracking formulas range sensitivity, not getting the same 15% increase from faction that missiles got and the T2 LR ammo penalizations.
2. The Raven as a hull in itself is woefully underpowered, being short on CPU and PG for most modern demands in fitting. Pretty much every other Tier2 BS is capable of a useful fit with remotereps or heavy neuts and a set of shortrange weaponry. The Raven comes short on fitting, high on demands (remote shield transfers are CPU murderers) and without particularly powerful bonuses.
In the past, it's been sustained by it's EW mids and recently explosion radius rigs. EW is going away, and with it a lot of the attractiveness of Cruise. The Torpedo change is perfectly fair in the sense that it then retains a niche, but utterly nonsensical that it excels at one niche (bs killing) now to the degree of ridiculing others and becomes woefully bad as a versatile platform.
The caveat here is of course, that amongst it's niche will be territorial warfare, so it'll more or less be Ravens online anyway :)
Conclusion: I'd be down for more fitting room on the Raven, and toning down Torp DPS again while getting back some range. But really, I'd rather every shortrange BS gets changed in one fell swoop, so we don't end up with more public outcries and reactionary changes that will end up sticking another ship into the trashcan, much like with Nosferatou, speedmods and all that :/
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2007.11.23 01:41:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Wu Jiun on 23/11/2007 01:43:42 Edited by: Wu Jiun on 23/11/2007 01:41:51
Originally by: Dracorimus Sup, did your solopwnmobile get nerfed? I'm very happy torps are much better now and blasterthrons won't be the only solopwnmobiles in game....
I'm amarr specced and I can tell you its a good change
Yeah. A torp raven outdamaging megapulses on geddon and abaddon from 0 to 45km. With 0 cap use, arbitrary damage types, same hp buffer, better speed and agility than both plated abaddon and geddon will have. Thats a *really* good change for amarr. Scorch was our last resort, now its gone.
Geddon does a tiny bit more damage if you take drones into account. A tiny, tiny bit for all the drawbacks and its gone if you take dmg type into account once again. And don't give me this crap about hitting smaller targets. It's not like bs guns do wtfdmg to unwebbed cruisers or frigs.
And if they are webbed why not assume ravens targets are painted either? The whole discussion is full of hypocrisy.
Edit: And don't tell me its all about the tackling. I can tackle (not really actually) and you don't have to make a compromise between dmg mods and tank. Another plus of the raven that many seasoned pilots seem to forget when they talk about "balance".
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.23 03:02:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius!
No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial.
You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number.
The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948
Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted. you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega. sig radius matter so your 990 prossible rage torp dps are true ON A STATIONARY TARGET WITH >=530 sig radius which is bigger than a bs
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.23 07:33:00 -
[84]
Originally by: d026 you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega.
So, you're saying that Mega's niche after this change will be against stationary cruisers at 5km range or less?
Also, please include the drones for the Raven if you include them for Mega. -- Gradient forum |
Dracorimus
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.11.23 10:36:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Wu Jiun Edited by: Wu Jiun on 23/11/2007 01:43:42 Edited by: Wu Jiun on 23/11/2007 01:41:51
Originally by: Dracorimus Sup, did your solopwnmobile get nerfed? I'm very happy torps are much better now and blasterthrons won't be the only solopwnmobiles in game....
I'm amarr specced and I can tell you its a good change
Yeah. A torp raven outdamaging megapulses on geddon and abaddon from 0 to 45km. With 0 cap use, arbitrary damage types, same hp buffer, better speed and agility than both plated abaddon and geddon will have. Thats a *really* good change for amarr. Scorch was our last resort, now its gone.
Geddon does a tiny bit more damage if you take drones into account. A tiny, tiny bit for all the drawbacks and its gone if you take dmg type into account once again. And don't give me this crap about hitting smaller targets. It's not like bs guns do wtfdmg to unwebbed cruisers or frigs.
And if they are webbed why not assume ravens targets are painted either? The whole discussion is full of hypocrisy.
Edit: And don't tell me its all about the tackling. I can tackle (not really actually) and you don't have to make a compromise between dmg mods and tank. Another plus of the raven that many seasoned pilots seem to forget when they talk about "balance".
I forgot to mention my Geddon can STILL wtfpwn Ravens anyway? heheeh, my Abaddon is a BEAST by the way -
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.23 14:59:00 -
[86]
Originally by: d026
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted.
But the target will be painted, much like any target my Blaster Rokh goes after will be webbed and scrambled despite me not fitting a webber or a scrambler.
...and then you go off on your tutorial again and go as far as to use rage as your example to skew things to your side of the argument. Most of us know about signature radius and explosion velocity, most of us know the typical sig radius of each ship class. Anyone who doesn't will quickly prove their lack of knowledge. There is no need to assume everyone but you doesn't have a clue how the game works.
I don't fly a Megathron for anything but solo lulz it's simply not as good as the Rokh with blasters the way I use it. I'm very much looking forward to the Torp changes, though I am worried that it will bring about the Age of the Raven and instead of tweaking the torps a little, as I believe they should, the nerfbat will be swung too hard and in the wrong place. I don't want my Raven to be uber short-term, I want it to be good long-term.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.23 16:52:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: d026
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted.
But the target will be painted, much like any target my Blaster Rokh goes after will be webbed and scrambled despite me not fitting a webber or a scrambler.
...and then you go off on your tutorial again and go as far as to use rage as your example to skew things to your side of the argument. Most of us know about signature radius and explosion velocity, most of us know the typical sig radius of each ship class. Anyone who doesn't will quickly prove their lack of knowledge. There is no need to assume everyone but you doesn't have a clue how the game works.
I don't fly a Megathron for anything but solo lulz it's simply not as good as the Rokh with blasters the way I use it. I'm very much looking forward to the Torp changes, though I am worried that it will bring about the Age of the Raven and instead of tweaking the torps a little, as I believe they should, the nerfbat will be swung too hard and in the wrong place. I don't want my Raven to be uber short-term, I want it to be good long-term.
so how are you gonna achive 990 dps without rages? yeah you always have DREAD GURIASTA torps with you.. with cn torps you are down to 948 dps VS 949 dps from your mega w/void. and still you wont deliver those 948 dps to anythign with a sig radius <450...
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.11.23 18:20:00 -
[88]
How do people manage to reply to a post while ignoring it's content so thoroughly.
Where did I say I intended to achieve 990 dps. I only asked about the dps value regarding faction torpedoes. When I was able to get the data myself I posted the values for rage, javelin, and caldari navy torps in case anyone else was curious.
Did I mention DG Torps?
Again with my mega. Just because I have an Intaki protrait doesn't mean I fly a Megathron. Indeed my previous post tells you such.
Yes, 948 dps won't be done to anything with a sig below 450 unless it is painted. It will still do significant DPS for the size class it is hitting especially with painters on them. In addition a plate-mega won't be doing it's 1160 dps outside 6.8km to any ship. Indeed it won't be doing any damage at 19.4km so how that fits into a response to my original question regarding damage at 25km is beyond me.
-------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING! |
Jasai Kameron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.23 20:09:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Jasai Kameron on 23/11/2007 20:12:06
Originally by: Kal Shakai
Originally by: Solokar
You may not easily beat the Raven anymore in a Mega, but if you lose one to a Raven your gonna get laughed right out of here.
Pure pwn. Thread finished. Nothing to see here.
Uhm... have you two read the thread? Did you notice the bit where two players have tested Mega vs. Raven and the Mega has been "wtfpwned" - which is quoting the guy who things torps are fine.
Look at facts, not propoganda. The Raven is beating the Mega on SISI. The only argument being advanced to say that's okay is that apparently the Raven can't tackle while pwning the Megathron, which means it's not good at solo.
So, to summarise, Raven is now much better than Megathron in Gang and will either destroy or drive off the Megathron in solo.
Problem? I don't know. But let's cease pretending that someone who loses a fight to a Raven in a Megathron is a fool. And let's start paying attention to what's happening on SISI, rather than just spouting our mouths off because we fly one race's ships and not the other's.
Edited: Oh, and people saying the Megathron can offset an imbalance by fitting EW in its mids, please take a look around this forum. Every piece of EW in the game has been nerfed. ECM is only good on specialised ships. Painters don't count. TDs and RSDs are looking at something like 40% effectiveness of current standing.
The age of free midslots equalling superiority has ended.
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.23 21:49:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Solokar on 23/11/2007 21:57:45
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
Uhm... have you two read the thread? Did you notice the bit where two players have tested Mega vs. Raven and the Mega has been "wtfpwned" - which is quoting the guy who things torps are fine.
Look at facts, not propoganda. The Raven is beating the Mega on SISI. The only argument being advanced to say that's okay is that apparently the Raven can't tackle while pwning the Megathron, which means it's not good at solo.
So, to summarise, Raven is now much better than Megathron in Gang and will either destroy or drive off the Megathron in solo.
Problem? I don't know. But let's cease pretending that someone who loses a fight to a Raven in a Megathron is a fool. And let's start paying attention to what's happening on SISI, rather than just spouting our mouths off because we fly one race's ships and not the other's.
Edited: Oh, and people saying the Megathron can offset an imbalance by fitting EW in its mids, please take a look around this forum. Every piece of EW in the game has been nerfed. ECM is only good on specialised ships. Painters don't count. TDs and RSDs are looking at something like 40% effectiveness of current standing.
The age of free midslots equalling superiority has ended.
For the record. I can fly both ships well (actually the Mega better) between my various accounts. For you to suggest that I only fly one or the other is ignorant.
Also, I have spent a lot of time on the test server testing the new torps. Yes, you can drive a Mega off, but so can a passive Drake drive off a ton of ships that people feel they shouldn't. It's a similar situation.
The FACT is that the Raven can not gank, tackle and tank. No one should lose a Mega in a 1 v 1.
If your worried about gang balance then bring some proper gang fittings and logic to the table. However, I will put forth the the INTENDED role of these new torps on the Raven is for gang fire support.
The Mega still does it's thing better than the Raven. Are you so obtuse as to think the Raven shouldn't be able to do it's role as well or even better?
I fly a Mega on my other account and I love it. I am not so thick as to think I should be able to kill everything simply because of it though.
Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode.
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.23 22:15:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode.
So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3*BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2*invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.) -- Gradient forum |
Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.23 22:22:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode.
So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3*BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2*invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.)
That setup would die so fast to a Mega.
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Karandor
Minmatar Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.11.24 01:46:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Solokar
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode.
So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3*BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2*invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.)
Will die VERY fast to an abbadon. Raven buff is an amarr buff since amarr eat raven tanks for breakfast. That setup would die so fast to a Mega.
Don't ***** about having to train a lot of skills until you fly minmatar. |
Yukisa
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Posted - 2007.11.24 03:49:00 -
[94]
The change is good, but a little too powerful. A slight reduction in RoF is in order.
The most important factor is range. First and foremost, a 30km range weapon systems should NEVER out damage a sub 10km weapon system ever. That's before factoring in cap use, damage selection, and limiting factors of the weapon systems.
Not only is it bad for gank megas, its bad for amarr megapulse users. It was decent at short-mid range, now the raven with t1 torps and t2 javs outperform it in every way.
I'm all for a boost to raven pvp, but there's a fine line before **** gets out of wack and then later down the road gets nerfed again. Do it right while its in testing to avoid much whinage later. |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.24 06:34:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Solokar
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode.
So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3*BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2*invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.)
That setup would die so fast to a Mega.
Of course, of course. Give that easily-victorious Mega's setup, then. -- Gradient forum |
Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.24 06:53:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Karandor
Will die VERY fast to an abbadon. Raven buff is an amarr buff since amarr eat raven tanks for breakfast.
(Guessing that that was what you wrote, the quote is a bit messed up.) Sounds reasonable. Haven't tested it, but it gets a whole lot more tank than Raven, although it still takes a couple of minutes to kill the Raven. It has less damage and a whole lot less speed, though, so Raven might be able to get the range/transversal high enough to reduce Abaddon's damage enough to win. Probably not, though.
The question was about blasters, though - are they still useful for anything except for killing stationary cruisers at 5km range? -- Gradient forum |
Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.24 07:00:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Solokar
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Solokar Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode.
So, you're active tanking. Fit a passive tank + MWD + scram + painter and you should have no problems in killing Megas solo. (Possible fit: 3*BCU2, DC2, 1600/800mm plate in lows; MWD, LSE2, 2*invu2, painter, scram in mids; small T2 ACs in the two empty highs for antidrone/closerange work. Shield rigs.)
That setup would die so fast to a Mega.
Of course, of course. Give that easily-victorious Mega's setup, then.
I can't believe your serious. Do you have any practical pvp experience? Just take any standard Mega setup.
I doubt that Raven setup has 20K shields on it. My passive Mega flies with almost 50K of armor. It wouldn't be close.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.24 07:04:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Karandor
Will die VERY fast to an abbadon. Raven buff is an amarr buff since amarr eat raven tanks for breakfast.
(Guessing that that was what you wrote, the quote is a bit messed up.) Sounds reasonable. Haven't tested it, but it gets a whole lot more tank than Raven, although it still takes a couple of minutes to kill the Raven. It has less damage and a whole lot less speed, though, so Raven might be able to get the range/transversal high enough to reduce Abaddon's damage enough to win. Probably not, though.
The question was about blasters, though - are they still useful for anything except for killing stationary cruisers at 5km range?
1)Mega Pulse Laser gonna have way bigger range than torps. 2)No because torps changed, blaster suddenly deal only 0.1 damage... -.-
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.24 07:25:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Yukisa The change is good, but a little too powerful. A slight reduction in RoF is in order.
The most important factor is range. First and foremost, a 30km range weapon systems should NEVER out damage a sub 10km weapon system ever. That's before factoring in cap use, damage selection, and limiting factors of the weapon systems.
Not only is it bad for gank megas, its bad for amarr megapulse users. It was decent at short-mid range, now the raven with t1 torps and t2 javs outperform it in every way.
I'm all for a boost to raven pvp, but there's a fine line before **** gets out of wack and then later down the road gets nerfed again. Do it right while its in testing to avoid much whinage later.
I'm not going to dispute this at all. It may be a bit much. I can't really say. I've spent a lot of time testing them and I think the role change is good for the game.
The current -25% ROF / +33% DPS changed to -20% ROF / +25% DPS wouldn't bother me.
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2007.11.24 08:14:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
1)Mega Pulse Laser gonna have way bigger range than torps.
Not on the raven. You are not limited to t1 torps.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.24 08:25:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
1)Mega Pulse Laser gonna have way bigger range than torps.
Not on the raven. You are not limited to t1 torps.
Javelin range 45km with maxed skills right? Mega Pulse Laser get 45km with long range ammo + falloff
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.24 11:22:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Solokar
I doubt that Raven setup has 20K shields on it. My passive Mega flies with almost 50K of armor. It wouldn't be close.
I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now. -- Gradient forum |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.24 11:29:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now.
i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50...
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.24 14:09:00 -
[104]
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now.
i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50...
My cluelessness is quite possible - if I ever stop learning new things, I will be astounded. However, I'd be interested in some information on how those fights proceed, as well as how the the Ravens are fitted. Could you please elaborate a bit? -- Gradient forum |
Dr Buffer
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Posted - 2007.11.24 14:29:00 -
[105]
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now.
i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50...
Your SISI kd ratio? LOOK HOW STUPID YOU ARE.
Also with the extra high slots and the new heat mitigation system you can slap in 2 offlined heavy nos and overload to your heart's content.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.24 15:24:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Goumindong on 24/11/2007 15:24:46
Originally by: Karandor
Will die VERY fast to an abbadon. Raven buff is an amarr buff since amarr eat raven tanks for breakfast.
The problem is that it will die even faster to a Raven, since the Raven has better damage types in any situation it so chooses due to the singular damage type it is able to produce.
ed: It also does a lot more DPS with a good amount more range.
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Jasai Kameron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.24 15:42:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Solokar For the record. I can fly both ships well (actually the Mega better) between my various accounts. For you to suggest that I only fly one or the other is ignorant.
Also, I have spent a lot of time on the test server testing the new torps. Yes, you can drive a Mega off, but so can a passive Drake drive off a ton of ships that people feel they shouldn't. It's a similar situation.
The FACT is that the Raven can not gank, tackle and tank. No one should lose a Mega in a 1 v 1.
If your worried about gang balance then bring some proper gang fittings and logic to the table. However, I will put forth the the INTENDED role of these new torps on the Raven is for gang fire support.
The Mega still does it's thing better than the Raven. Are you so obtuse as to think the Raven shouldn't be able to do it's role as well or even better?
I fly a Mega on my other account and I love it. I am not so thick as to think I should be able to kill everything simply because of it though.
Edit: Sisi does lack some degree of reality. I doubt it would be so easy to drive off those Mega's without my full set of crystals. Keep in mind that on Sisi everyone is running in rich mode.
The Drake drives ships off by just having an awesome tank. People leave because they're bored, not because they're on the receiving end of 800+ dps.
You're insulting people who lose a fight to a Raven in a Megathron. But it will happen all the time. I'm assuming this mystical tank, gank and tackle Megathron is one of those plated monstrosities that have a warp time of several centuries. All you need is a fight that's fairly close, a slight miscalculation on when/whether to run away and then bam, you're dead.
Unless you're suggesting the Megathron is a fool to engage in the first place. That it should just be running away at the first sign of a Raven.
From what I understand, the Raven is going to be superior in any gang larger than one, with its effectiveness dramatically increasing the larger the gang is (well, until you get to full-scale fleet fights and snipers, obviously). And that in a 1v1 fight, it will most likely be a draw or a win to the Raven.
It seems to me that there's an argument that suggests this shouldn't be the case. That the Megathron should win 1v1, maybe be moderately better to equal in small gangs, and then the Raven should be more useful in gangs larger than I don't know, 4-5 people.
Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I object to people who base an argument on anyone who disagrees being an idiot. People will lose Megathrons to Ravens. And many of those people won't be fools.
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2007.11.24 16:47:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
1)Mega Pulse Laser gonna have way bigger range than torps.
Not on the raven. You are not limited to t1 torps.
Javelin range 45km with maxed skills right? Mega Pulse Laser get 45km with long range ammo + falloff
Pretty much, yes. How that qualifies as "way bigger range" is beyond me. Have you actually looked at laser falloff? Its 10km with maxed skills. 10km. lol.
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DarkXenon
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Posted - 2007.11.24 18:27:00 -
[109]
You can argue all day till your blue in the face and pretend that this is a 'fair' update.
Megathron -Doesn't Tank it dies slowly -If you fit reps then your taking away the only thing that makes it good DPS -The turning cirle on a plate mega is awfull -Once you kill a target you then have to MWD to the next one -MWD with Med cap booster - limited movement
Ive never flown a raven so I can't comment on a setup but I have done 1 vs 1's on test and they normally just tank me while I die slowly. Now considering this was before torp buff I'm slightly concerned.
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Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.24 21:39:00 -
[110]
Hey, add the tempest and apoc into the whine, might be more interesting then.
It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.24 21:49:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 24/11/2007 21:49:42 I played with a raven on Sisi in FFA and 1v1s. The raven is a better PVP ship now, and I could hold my own against Gal ships finnaly where as before it was a joke. But, I did not always win and I'm pretty much lvl 5 in everything related to flying a raven. So it's not some win button ship. Still has all the same weaknesses it had before, can just do more DPS now, brining it on par with other close range platfoms. -AS
The Real Space Initiative (Forum Link) |
d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.24 21:55:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Dr Buffer
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now.
i doubt that you have any clue. From my experience on SIS my kill/death ratio against Megas is arround 50/50...
Your SISI kd ratio? LOOK HOW STUPID YOU ARE.
Also with the extra high slots and the new heat mitigation system you can slap in 2 offlined heavy nos and overload to your heart's content.
at least i have first hand experience you have to believe everythign random noobcorp alts write on teh forums.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.24 21:57:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 24/11/2007 21:49:42 I played with a raven on Sisi in FFA and 1v1s. The raven is a better PVP ship now, and I could hold my own against Gal ships finnaly where as before it was a joke. But, I did not always win and I'm pretty much lvl 5 in everything related to flying a raven. So it's not some win button ship. Still has all the same weaknesses it had before, can just do more DPS now, brining it on par with other close range platfoms.
QFT
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.24 23:48:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
The Drake drives ships off by just having an awesome tank. People leave because they're bored, not because they're on the receiving end of 800+ dps.
What is the difference? The point was neither one holds you down while doing it.
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
You're insulting people who lose a fight to a Raven in a Megathron. But it will happen all the time. I'm assuming this mystical tank, gank and tackle Megathron is one of those plated monstrosities that have a warp time of several centuries. All you need is a fight that's fairly close, a slight miscalculation on when/whether to run away and then bam, you're dead.
All I said is that it would make me laugh. That would make me laugh.
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
Unless you're suggesting the Megathron is a fool to engage in the first place. That it should just be running away at the first sign of a Raven.
Not 1 v 1.
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
From what I understand, the Raven is going to be superior in any gang larger than one, with its effectiveness dramatically increasing the larger the gang is (well, until you get to full-scale fleet fights and snipers, obviously). And that in a 1v1 fight, it will most likely be a draw or a win to the Megathron.
Fixed it for you.
Originally by: Jasai Kameron
Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I object to people who base an argument on anyone who disagrees being an idiot. People will lose Megathrons to Ravens. And many of those people won't be fools.
I don't believe I called anyone an idiot. If I did that would be out of character and I apologize. I did say someone was ignorant to assume I only fly one type of ship. I will also contend that the Mega should still either win or draw in a 1 v 1 situation with normal combat fittings. This may prove to be wrong over time. Until, then I will stick to my belief.
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.24 23:50:00 -
[115]
Originally by: DarkXenon You can argue all day till your blue in the face and pretend that this is a 'fair' update.
Megathron -Doesn't Tank it dies slowly -If you fit reps then your taking away the only thing that makes it good DPS -The turning cirle on a plate mega is awfull -Once you kill a target you then have to MWD to the next one -MWD with Med cap booster - limited movement
Ive never flown a raven so I can't comment on a setup but I have done 1 vs 1's on test and they normally just tank me while I die slowly. Now considering this was before torp buff I'm slightly concerned.
Nothing has changed to the Megathron right? Those things still apply.
The only change is that the Raven is no longer an easy kill. Why is that so bad?
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.24 23:54:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
Originally by: Solokar
I doubt that Raven setup has 20K shields on it. My passive Mega flies with almost 50K of armor. It wouldn't be close.
I have no doubt that a Mega with a full slave set in the pilot's head supported by armorlinked Damnation would be able to win over an unimplanted, unsupported Raven if it starts within web range. If that is your definition of balance, I will bow out of this discussion now.
Here you go again....sigh.
There is no gang is the setup I alluded to. Yes, I do have a set of LOW-grade slaves. That's not so uncommon for a Megathron pilot who solo's. You can put any implants into your Raven pilot you like it's not going to change the outcome with the setup you mentioned.
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Solokar
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Posted - 2007.11.25 01:01:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Dristra Hey, add the tempest and apoc into the whine, might be more interesting then.
Let try to keep this thread on topic.
The OP stated that there was no point in flying a blaster ship anymore. He puts forth the theory that a torp Raven can do what a Megathron does better than a Megathron. This means a close range slugfest.
You could easily create a Raven setup that could kite a Mega around and eventually turn it into a wreck every time. However, you could do this before Trinity also.
My contention is that a Megathron can still do it better, in the ranges that blasters are used, if dps, tanking and tackling are all taken into account.
If this needs to turn into a discussion of the dps a Raven can do from 15 - 30km then that's another thread waiting to happen.
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Brixer
Dai Dai Hai
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Posted - 2007.11.25 02:21:00 -
[118]
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius!
No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial.
You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number.
The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948
Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted. you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega. sig radius matter so your 990 prossible rage torp dps are true ON A STATIONARY TARGET WITH >=530 sig radius which is bigger than a bs
How can you deliver full DPS to a cruiser with large guns ? Large guns have something called 'signature resolution', on Neutron IIs thats 400m. If target got less than 400m radius your DPS going down the drain. Drake got 285 m base radius. It's like the missiles explo radius. Raven got 460 base sig, so yes, Blasters will do full dmg on statinary Raven.. Unless it's @ 0 m, all guns miss forever if getting that close.
The stats to compare are:
Missile vs Gun explo radius vs signature resolution. explo speed vs tracking speed.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.25 02:50:00 -
[119]
Edited by: d026 on 25/11/2007 02:52:27
Originally by: Brixer
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Originally by: d026 you are NOT gonna ignore sig radius!
No, I really am. You can assume adequate TP's have been fitted, or I have a couple of tacklers with painters, or I'm shooting at a freighter. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm aware of the effect of sig radius, I can read, if I couldn't your reply still wouldn't have done me much good. I'm asking for a number, not a basic missile tutorial.
You took all that effort to reply and failed to mention that number.
The correct answer, or at least the one I'm getting from EFT, is 948
Javelin = 697 Faction = 948 Rage = 990
on a freighter yeah but yoyu wont even get those 990 dps on another raven if not painted. you NEVR gonna deliver 990 dps on a stationari cruiser while you easily deliver 1200 dps on a stationary cruiser with your mega. sig radius matter so your 990 prossible rage torp dps are true ON A STATIONARY TARGET WITH >=530 sig radius which is bigger than a bs
How can you deliver full DPS to a cruiser with large guns ? Large guns have something called 'signature resolution', on Neutron IIs thats 400m. If target got less than 400m radius your DPS going down the drain. Drake got 285 m base radius. It's like the missiles explo radius. Raven got 460 base sig, so yes, Blasters will do full dmg on statinary Raven.. Unless it's @ 0 m, all guns miss forever if getting that close.
The stats to compare are:
Missile vs Gun explo radius vs signature resolution. explo speed vs tracking speed.
the tracking guide tells me that you will hit a stationary 140m sig radius cruiser with your 400 sig resolution large neutron blaster for 100% of your dps.
/edit i had 10m/s traversal added to the calc, corrected now.
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