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Do we need more space?

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Jungle KungFu Minmatar Dickens-Cider	Posted - 2007.11.22 23:58:00 - [61] Edited by: Jungle KungFu on 22/11/2007 23:58:35 Most of 0.0 is empty and most of those empty systems are garbage. However turning them into .5 or better (true sec) would only enhance the rabid inflation problem. I would agree that logistically it is very easy to control 0.0 space and tools like the jump freighter will just make it easier. Also cloaking ravens are the only thing keeping certain countries economy going.
Dangerously Cheesey GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 00:01:00 - [62] Originally by: Jungle KungFu Edited by: Jungle KungFu on 22/11/2007 23:58:35 Most of 0.0 is empty and most of those empty systems are garbage. However turning them into .5 or better (true sec) would only enhance the rabid inflation problem. I would agree that logistically it is very easy to control 0.0 space and tools like the jump freighter will just make it easier. Also cloaking ravens are the only thing keeping certain countries economy going. Anyone who thinks that jump freighters, as currently implemented, are going to make 0.0 logistics easier than what they are now knows very little about logistics.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.23 00:17:00 - [63] Yes to the OP, EVE's universe is much too small now: - population has grown by a factor of 5+ - WTZ, so travel times are usually much shorter This is the main reason for blobbing - too many people live close together and alliances are too big. If there was enough space, there would be more and smaller alliances and common alliance warfare would attract fewer people because they'd have to travel further. About 4-5 x more solar systems would be fine. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Jungle KungFu Minmatar Dickens-Cider	Posted - 2007.11.23 00:32:00 - [64] Originally by: Dangerously Cheesey Originally by: Jungle KungFu Edited by: Jungle KungFu on 22/11/2007 23:58:35 Most of 0.0 is empty and most of those empty systems are garbage. However turning them into .5 or better (true sec) would only enhance the rabid inflation problem. I would agree that logistically it is very easy to control 0.0 space and tools like the jump freighter will just make it easier. Also cloaking ravens are the only thing keeping certain countries economy going. Anyone who thinks that jump freighters, as currently implemented, are going to make 0.0 logistics easier than what they are now knows very little about logistics. Explain how they will not make it easier.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 00:35:00 - [65] Originally by: Taurequis Hi, Just had a thought after seeing the alt post of "POS wars or NO". My opinion is that back in the day alot of things were made fun because of the isolation we used to have. We now have 40k people in the space we used to fit 5k. Even with all the POS stuff and their associated wars would eve feel more like the old days if we added another bunch of regions beyond the existing ones? More empty space, more distace to travel, less blobs? Does it take that much more processing power in the server clusters to make more regions available? What does everyone think? Bigger sandpit makes better corp and alliance level play? Yes or No? Your opinions welcome. Thanks, Taur I think we need more NPC sov 0.0 CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ajja 17 Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 00:45:00 - [66] Originally by: Malcanis I think we need more NPC sov 0.0 God no I want to own and develop my space, build an empire. Not squat somewhere.
Tarsyris The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:04:00 - [67] Edited by: Tarsyris on 23/11/2007 01:05:16 Add more regions like Delve. You can build outposts and there are also NPC stations. As an extra forbid cyno's or Large POS in those regions(alternatively just forbid cynos of any sort and hauling fuel will be so insane that it will do the job itself). Make them profitable. Bam, new gold rush with limited blob lameness. edit. oh and cut out **** systems. 0.0 probably has twice the number of systems it should have based on the "is this system ever going to be used for anything ever ever ever?" criteria. If the only purpose of system X is to increase travel distance between two places then remove it.
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:04:00 - [68] Originally by: Ajja 17 Originally by: Malcanis I think we need more NPC sov 0.0 God no I want to own and develop my space, build an empire. Not squat somewhere. then don't live in npc space duh. Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Scavok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:07:00 - [69] Edited by: Scavok on 23/11/2007 01:09:48 More space wouldn't change anything. It would just end up with the same guys we see now owning it, especially if it was more valuable. Cyno Jammers mean alliances can hold huge amounts of space with very little risk of being hit at multiple locations, which also means it's pretty much impossible for smaller alliances to take space from larger alliances. It's reduced the game down to something like a civil war battle where both sides just line up in an open field and start shooting each other.
Talen Reaper BladeRunners INC	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:20:00 - [70] hell I rember when there were 1200 people on when I would log in ....I don't think we need more space I tend to side with those who want the space made unusable to much of 00 is just crap space ..also I think there should be more npc stations about ..spawn rates should be increased .... would be cool to have a massive npc spawn in the systems that those stations are located..and there need to be way more ways into 00 ....all this gate camping is just lame ya jump in a low sec pipe system and there is a mom & 5 carriers camping the system that is fked up

Caliwyrm O'Libr Red Eye .Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.23 01:38:00 - [71] Originally by: Scavok Edited by: Scavok on 23/11/2007 01:09:48 More space wouldn't change anything. It would just end up with the same guys we see now owning it, especially if it was more valuable. Cyno Jammers mean alliances can hold huge amounts of space with very little risk of being hit at multiple locations, which also means it's pretty much impossible for smaller alliances to take space from larger alliances. QFT. Most of 0.0 is so empty it isn't funny. It has been my experience that once you get just a jump or two off a main pipe in 0.0 and you can sit for hours without seeing anyone else in local. Jump bridges make it even more desolate between outposts. I would like to see more smaller alliances claim their stake in 0.0, unfortunately I don't see the major alliances/coalitions just allowing smaller (and therefor weaker) alliances squating their borders. ======= Talk is cheap because supply always outweighs demand..
Schani Kratnorr Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:02:00 - [72] It's funny how the original backstory of EVE was about our own galaxy being stripped bare of resources, eventually leading humanity to discover and use the EVE gate. When I started playing EVE late in the beta phase I was curious about the vast number of systems CCP intended the game to have. 5000 star systems is quite enough we all thought, and for quite some time it has been. I dont think adding more systems will solve any of the problems by itself. I think removing the artificial "highways" that interconnect empire AND 0.0 regions would help restore some of the illusion of the vastness of EVE. Having said that, we DO need more systems. It's quite simple really. As more people play the game, we need more space for them to be in. I am curious how things will evolve with factional warfare. My hope is for some sort of "PvP switch" allowing large numbers of casual players to fight eachother across empire space, but we will have to see about that wont we... The game design of 0.0 space is in my opinion flawed. It favors a style of gameplay that suits the obsessive gamer types instead of the average. With more than 70% of players in Empire at any given time, it is clear that the majority want and seek something else from the game. In the beginning, you had to have a good 20 or so pilots to "live in 0.0". Then you had to have 50 to keep the competition down. Then we reached 100 members, and from then on we have seen the numbers increase to a point where running an organisation large enough to take on 0.0 involves so much work that it becomes a job in itself. Hats off to those that contend with the defective corp/alliance interfaces, but I cannot help but wonder if EVE suffers from being too demanding? The game rewards those with the skills and luck to pull it off, but the numbers tell us that more people simply go "safe" and farm missions in empire. Why is that? have the majority got it wrong, or does living in 0.0 demand so much from the individual that most would simply choose not to join a huge alliance? I think EVE needs empty space and a lot of it. It is what drives people to create a corp and organize. With no "free" space left, most are forced to join an existing alliance or stay in empire slowly bleeding active players to other corps already large enough to stake a claim in the promised land. With jump drives, jump clones, inter-region highways and similar features, it has become too easy to move from A to B and thus too easy for a relatively small number of people to lay claim to a large area. I hope that the changes to freighters using jump arrays and the new jump freighter will tip the balance. Forcing people tighter together in 0.0 would leave more room open for others to invade and claim. Having said that, some more "virgin 0.0" space needs a serious consideration, if not now, then some time next year if numbers keep climbing like they do now... Sorry for the long post... I tried keeping it brief, but as my friends will tell you, that is something I am incapable of
fugazii Deep Space Productions Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:10:00 - [73] Initially it would create a vacuum bringing people there, like the drone regions have done. However the unfortunate part of the drone regions is, and i mean no offense by this, full of people who only own space because there was no one there already claiming it. They fight amongst themselves, but shown time and again that when actual alliances roll in there, they trample the residents. This will happen to new regions, and in the long run not solve anything. Blobs will always be there, because "winning" is no longer based on pvp, its based on drawn out sieges and overpowering the enemy with numbers, isk, and logistic capabilities. The only way this game and alliance warfare will ever be made fun and exciting again is if they have servers that can handle the game ccp has created. The game will never go backwards... pos warfare in some form will never be removed so the only way forward is to make pos warfare fun, and the massive fights that follow this type warfare. Also, ccp needs to let go of thier greed. Isk buying should be illegal, alliances should not be funded by shatteredcrystal.com. GTC's have done so much damage to this game, entire alliances are funded by the RL rich, and this shapes the entirety of the eve map today since isk conquers regions now, not pvp ability. Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Ajja 17 Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:19:00 - [74] Edited by: Ajja 17 on 23/11/2007 03:20:13 Originally by: Schani Kratnorr With more than 70% of players in Empire at any given time, it is clear that the majority want and seek something else from the game. The majority of 0.0 players have empire alts (for missions/trading). So I wouldn't be surprised if the split is more like 50-50 (of physical players). edit: also keep in mind a lot of the empire dwellers are noobs, while most of 0.0 is populated by fairly experienced people.
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.11.23 03:26:00 - [75] Originally by: Cuebick Edited by: Cuebick on 22/11/2007 20:27:20 Imagine having two empires.. the only way to cross the bridge would to travel in 0.0 space. oooh the joy edit: You could only buy/manifacture certain things in each empire.. would make traffic between empires .. fun? ^^ This is a v nice idea
Mini Puce Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.11.23 04:25:00 - [76] For the Love of Gods open Jovian space please.
Relain Linday Amarr eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.23 05:20:00 - [77] Fix the lag FIRST. Then worry about space. Space is a valid subject, but it's the wrong time to think about it.
Ed Anger Weekly World News	Posted - 2007.11.23 05:23:00 - [78] yes, this game needs more Old Spice. /signed
Trustus Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.23 05:45:00 - [79] What the point in having lots of empty regions? Dont you have enough space to do your carebear. /T
Schani Kratnorr Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2007.11.23 05:59:00 - [80] Originally by: Ajja 17 Edited by: Ajja 17 on 23/11/2007 03:20:13 Originally by: Schani Kratnorr With more than 70% of players in Empire at any given time, it is clear that the majority want and seek something else from the game. The majority of 0.0 players have empire alts (for missions/trading). So I wouldn't be surprised if the split is more like 50-50 (of physical players). edit: also keep in mind a lot of the empire dwellers are noobs, while most of 0.0 is populated by fairly experienced people. Normally I dont dignify post from Turdswarm members with an answer, but just to disprove your illegitimate ideas on player distribution I feel I have to click anyway. First off, I dont have the actual distribution totals, only CCP database admins would have access to that, but I am fairly certain the 70-30 split of players(characters) in space is a more fair representation of actual activity. That is however, besides the topic, and your asumptions serve little purpose but to detract from the issue - does EVE need more space? Claiming most empire dwellers are "noobs" is incomprehensively off topic. Your statement reveals an arrogance all to familiar with your peers in the swarm. Irrespective of character age, skillpoints and physical attachment, an eve character will require space. Given the mathematical truth of skillpoints, a new player training ONE character would reach average skillpoints in about 8 months Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG It takes about a month to train one million skill points so it is fair to say that anyone who has more than five million skill points is at least not a ônewbieö anymore. AND Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG The average number of skill points for all races is 8.7 million. (source: quarterly economic newsletter, 3rd quarter 2007) In order to determine the need for extra space, one would have to estimate the demand. First you would need to total number of potentially active accounts: Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG Today there are more than 195,000 accounts, which represents 433,000 characters, or 2.2 characters per account. It is estimated that the population of EVE will have reached 200,000 by mid-Q4 2007 and will be well into 210,000 by Q1 2008. In addition to these accounts, there are another 45,000 trial accounts that could potentially become part of the society in the near future. So with 200.000 accounts and 5000 systems we would have 40 accounts per system. With 2.2 characters per accounts, we would have 88 characters per system. The question is: With a static number of systems and an increasing number of clients/characters/players, will we ever reach a point where we need more room? In addition, examining the problem in details opens up forther questions, like: Has EVE lost some of it's charm when becoming more crowded? What kind of space if any, should be added? (0.0/low sec/high sec) So in conclusion to your post Ajja 17, maybe the majority of players have alts, but even if they do, the fact they'd rather stay in empire and do missions as you claim, points to an even larger issue with the playability of 0.0 space. I think your wrong, but with no access to accurate data I can only go by gut feeling, and my gut says your a noob that dont know your ass from your elbow. Secondly, your claim that the majority of players in empire are "noobs" lacks proof. With no frame of referance to define noob, your post is as pointless as any other goonspam.

Schani Kratnorr Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:10:00 - [81] Now on the subject of defining a noob... The problem with defining "noob" is that most clueless people (like Ajja 17 and his alliance) define noob from their own perspective. To most players, the term "noob" is used in a derogatory manner, and usually in a context designed to provoke an emotional response. To that end, you and 99% of the current players are all noobs compared to me. In reality though, there are things about EVE I have yet to experience, so compared to someone else, I would be a noob. Dr.EyjoG provides a definition of an everage player by determining average skillpoints. While this method does not take into account that many accounts have alts with less than a million skillpoins on them, it is the best we have to work with. Now taking the numbers in my post above, we can say with mathematical certainty that the "space issue" will grow. Eventually CCP would have to add space to accomodate the players, and the question remains: Have we reached that point yet or not? I think we have. Some people would agree, some would not, but the distribution of players and the nature of their experience is only part of the equation. The problem is one of game design. Fact is, 70% of all players reside in empire. Looking at "players in space", reweals a preferance towards being "safe" that begs the question "why?" Being that I started playing late beta and when the game came out, I have a rare perspective to offer. My feeling is that we are reaching or have reached a point where the game needs more room. If that room comes in the form of moving mining into the deadspace authering system, or if it comes through new systems remains to be seen, but more players = less space.
Schani Kratnorr Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:15:00 - [82] To those left wondering, "what does this guy have against goonswarm", I can only say that I think the game would be better off without their personalities and methodology. The flood of so-called ****posting that will follow my posts will frame my point of view. Their absense will only cement their inability to do anything beyond simply being many and posting crappola all day long. I have managed to find a way to block posters from Goonswarm, so thankfully I will avoid having to read through it to find the posts that matter - all the others...
TheBadMan Caldari GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:37:00 - [83] sometimes when im in a system all alone. i touch myself.
arghy steelwill GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:53:00 - [84] Hahaha i love bitter players, ask the average empire dweller if they have ever ratted in low sec and how often they do. You'll find that most dont because they are to afraid to compete or just are ignorant of the game in general. They have no incentive to go into 0.0 and no desire to leave the safety of empire, turning half of empire into NPC 0.0 bordering free 0.0 would be a good idea. It would give them a training ground for proper 0.0 action, boost the rewards of liveing in lawless space and encourage more of them to actually take part in the fighting. I went from empire dweller to experienced 0.0 player- thats from total ignorance about the game to knowing as much as the 40-50m sp players when i only had 2-5m sps. How many empire players actually know about friggin resists and stuff? they dont get a taste of pvp in empire so they miss a huge part of the game and turn into mentally challenged players in 0.0 where pvp is king. Turn the empires in NPC 0.0 space already make every outlying empire system a new syndicate, add better agents better moons and better rats but always ensure lawless 0.0 is way better so they dont just stay in the nest of ignorance. Shot at 2007-07-19 Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
olzi Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 06:58:00 - [85] Maybe if most of the 0.0 systems weren't complete crap, big alliances wouldn't need to conquer several regions and then only use a small percentage of it. We don't need some new arbitrary rules or more systems, just make 0.0 profitable enough that people can get by with less.
Rathkan Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 07:44:00 - [86] Given that ~70% of players are in Empire (can we agree on >50% at least) maybe it's worth adding more hisec. I couldn't care less either way though, I don't go to Empire much anymore. I'd agree increasing the value of a majority of the 0.0 systems may be a better alternative to just adding more systems. That'd reduce the number of empty systems at least.
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.23 07:50:00 - [87] I wish they would add a few more npc controlled 0,0 regions tbh
Stinkywrix GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.23 08:45:00 - [88] We don't need more space, what we need is better space. Most of 0.0 is crap. I can go to any system off the beaten path in Tenerifis or Feythabolis, and it's probably not going to be much more then -0.1 truesec. What we need to do is boost up truesec in 0.0 so instead of alliances living in 1/5 of it, they live in 3/5 or 4/5s. Your signature was inappropriate, email [email protected] to find out why (don't forget to include a link to it) -Sahwoolo
Zothike Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.23 09:07:00 - [89] there is only 9% of players in 0.0, and even if the number of player in eve is constantly growing, i saw in an interview that ccp is not planing to bring new regions, because some new places will be introduced in game , like with ambulation, mini games, games inside the game (hollow asteroid with dogfight fps like i saw), planetary interaction etc etc. All theses ppl that will be in theses new places, will not be in "undocked" then space is and will be enought
OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.11.23 09:20:00 - [90] Originally by: Schani Kratnorr STUFFFFFFFFFFF and alot of it. Dude, very nice quoting and stuff but try and think also.. The 200.000 accounts may have 2.2 char in avarage but that doesnt mean that people play with the 2.2 chars. They have 1 char thats is skilled the rest are just sitting in empire.. And some accounts are purely alts for empire so thats a full 2.2 that goes there aswell.. So its fairly sure to assume that the spilt isnt 30/70 but more even though no one for sure can they the number..



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