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Do we need more space?

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NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:49:00 - [121] Originally by: Thargor II We used to just maintain bookmarks that were to objects 17k past the gate. I bet you died alot. Farham: "Remember, sometimes evolution ends in extinction."
Olli Hokkanen Full Life Alternative	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:54:00 - [122] more space = more isk farmers, no thx
Raid Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.11.25 19:12:00 - [123] Originally by: NATMav Originally by: Thargor II We used to just maintain bookmarks that were to objects 17k past the gate. I bet you died alot. Gates are larger than you think. 17km past the gate will still drop you at 0 on top of it.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 00:33:00 - [124] Originally by: fire 59 I always liked the idea of having the 4 empires seperated by low sec and 0.0 being on the outskirts like it is now. No empire high ways between empires and would probably help encourage more than 1 trading hub (Jita) That would also allow pirates to actually gain access to their eve content (ie. other players). It'd make for more action than there is currently in empire space. The analysis further up raises some good points with the wall of text. More exploration sites and anomolies would increase the carrying capactity of the space but would also devalue it. The more you increase the value of space the less people that will be willing to fight for it. Fighting for better space isn't one of the things accounted for in biology as it assumes that a particular species is not capable of forming an army to push out or kill off other populations. Though overall ratting in 0.0 is pretty bad for revenue compared with high sec mission running. We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.
Dipluz NailorTech Industries	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:43:00 - [125] I would want warp to 15km back, to make solar systems more personal again, so u see more people living around, like in the old days :). but hey cant do that beacuse everyone would start bookmarking again, but then again, I would add more solar systems, eve aint getting more less populated guys, eve is getting more popular and with it comes more residents. I guess that ccp is so stubborn that they wont add either new server or new regions, and then I dont mean some few regions, I would like to se at least 10-15 new regions. make something huge, and new =), eve has a tendency to like that. Eve is getting seriously over populated and its seriously getting crap, beacuse u got the big alliances taking all the places to make money, and that sucks. so the rest of the guys is getting scraps. call it isk farming, but its reality. and whith it comes people start leaving if eve isnt adding more space to travel in.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:13:00 - [126] Originally by: Dipluz call it isk farming, but its reality. and whith it comes people start leaving if eve isnt adding more space to travel in. People need to make isk in eve to pvp that's the reality. I don't think adding more space is the solution as most of the space is under utilised because of either the geography, logistics or poor rewards. A good example of this is Pure Blind which is one of the most useless 0.0 regions in the game besides Geminate. In general it's the rubbish space that new 0.0 alliances tend to take to avoid very heavy combat. A change in the eve geography would revitalise the game. 59's suggestion is one of many good ways to fix some of the game map. The balancing team really need to look at the map. * (stealing the 59 suggestion) separate each of the four main high sec factions by low sec space. * Separate all 0.0 with tracts of low sec space so there's none of this instant 0.0 access. The pipe from Maut to RQH is an example of a good pipe despite Pure Blind sucking. * 0.0 should be more rewarding thus pulling more people through low sec to provide content for pirate turrets to shoot. * 0.0 logistics have reduced the size of space and jump bridges have drastically reduced traffic around choke points. Perhaps a band of NPC 0.0 is needed to separate low sec from player controlled 0.0. All this could be done with the existing systems but would need a significant amount of work restructuring the map to make things more exciting. We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:17:00 - [127] Hehe just read the comments about taxing people in your sov space. That'd be great charge ratters 5% tax to use your space and have the ability to charge 100% tax to people in npc corps ratting in your space. We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:34:00 - [128] Originally by: Devian 666 Though overall ratting in 0.0 is pretty bad for revenue compared with high sec mission running. Compared to an L4 mission runner, yeah, its bad. Compared to L3, its just above parity. However, not all of us have the uberkit up Ravens at our disposal. Plus its 0.0, so there's a prestige element that even if you suck horribly at PvP, you're still out in the game facing the risks. Lets face it, right now I'm not much more than filler space on Burn Eden's kill board, but its better than pure carebearing.
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:36:00 - [129] Originally by: Devian 666 Hehe just read the comments about taxing people in your sov space. That'd be great charge ratters 5% tax to use your space and have the ability to charge 100% tax to people in npc corps ratting in your space. Depending on the region, I'd be fine with up to 20% or more bounty taxes. The money from bounties is chump change. The real money's in the loot/reprocess/salvage game. Even then, that still benefits the local landlords because its your buy orders I'm probably filling.
Grapez Advanced Security And Asset Protection	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:48:00 - [130] The problem with 0.0 is that it takes too much time for battles to affect the political landscape. As it is now, if an alliance decides to take over system XYZ-123, they have to do the following: effectively lock down XYZ, jump in dreads, put towers into reinforced, keep XYZ locked down until towers come out of reinforced, jump in dreads, destroy towers, deploy friendly towers, wait until sovereignty flips. The effort it takes to take over a system is just about right; you should need to actually try in order to call a system your own. However, the time it takes is too much. I would suggest either 1.) towers pop as soon as they run out of HP, get rid of reinforced mode or 2.) limit the stront bay on towers to 12 hours, at the most. This way, a battle that takes place today could translate into a sovereignty flip tomorrow. This would allow for a more fluid and dynamic political map that actually reflects the abilities and aspirations of current alliances, as opposed to the time sink that is the current state of POS warfare.

Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:57:00 - [131] Edited by: Devian 666 on 26/11/2007 02:59:12 Edited by: Devian 666 on 26/11/2007 02:57:46 Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Devian 666 Hehe just read the comments about taxing people in your sov space. That'd be great charge ratters 5% tax to use your space and have the ability to charge 100% tax to people in npc corps ratting in your space. Depending on the region, I'd be fine with up to 20% or more bounty taxes. The money from bounties is chump change. The real money's in the loot/reprocess/salvage game. Even then, that still benefits the local landlords because its your buy orders I'm probably filling. Yeah I'm basically interested in ideas that would make better use of existing space that's under utilised. CCP currently doesn't provide the tools to administer systems such as those suggested, which would encourage alliances to provide others with 0.0 access. This would also increase the value of sov and would help pay some of the fuel bills. Note that BoB attempted this with their rent a constellation scheme which is hard to enforce without sufficient political/military influence, or significant "employed" manpower (which would be a boring job). We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.
watermeron Goony Hand Social Club GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:00:00 - [132] Originally by: Grapez The problem with 0.0 is that it takes too much time for battles to affect the political landscape. As it is now, if an alliance decides to take over system XYZ-123, they have to do the following: effectively lock down XYZ, jump in dreads, put towers into reinforced, keep XYZ locked down until towers come out of reinforced, jump in dreads, destroy towers, deploy friendly towers, wait until sovereignty flips. The effort it takes to take over a system is just about right; you should need to actually try in order to call a system your own. However, the time it takes is too much. I would suggest either 1.) towers pop as soon as they run out of HP, get rid of reinforced mode or 2.) limit the stront bay on towers to 12 hours, at the most. This way, a battle that takes place today could translate into a sovereignty flip tomorrow. This would allow for a more fluid and dynamic political map that actually reflects the abilities and aspirations of current alliances, as opposed to the time sink that is the current state of POS warfare. almost nobody conducts POS warfare by full system lockdown anymore
Taurequis Waylander 01	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:47:00 - [133] Originally by: Devian 666 Hehe just read the comments about taxing people in your sov space. That'd be great charge ratters 5% tax to use your space and have the ability to charge 100% tax to people in npc corps ratting in your space. heh, that would be sick. Overall i'm very impressed by the level of discussion in my thread. Although most of you still disagree with me in adding more space (except that guy who wanted LOADS of more new regions \o/). If anyone wants to add anything else productive or we can just wrap it up here and present our findings to CCP with a brown envelope full of isk. Again, thanks for all the constructive posts in this thread. Who says logical mature discussion was dead on this part of the forum! Best Regards, Taur
Vanya Nenharma	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:43:00 - [134] Originally by: Taurequis Hi, Just had a thought after seeing the alt post of "POS wars or NO". My opinion is that back in the day alot of things were made fun because of the isolation we used to have. We now have 40k people in the space we used to fit 5k. Even with all the POS stuff and their associated wars would eve feel more like the old days if we added another bunch of regions beyond the existing ones? More empty space, more distace to travel, less blobs? Does it take that much more processing power in the server clusters to make more regions available? What does everyone think? Bigger sandpit makes better corp and alliance level play? Yes or No? Your opinions welcome. Thanks, Taur There is plenty of empty spaces, just find it and grab it
Elohe GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:09:00 - [135] now that remedial is not playing the game there is a lot of space left.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:06:00 - [136] Originally by: fugazii Initially it would create a vacuum bringing people there, like the drone regions have done. However the unfortunate part of the drone regions is, and i mean no offense by this, full of people who only own space because there was no one there already claiming it. They fight amongst themselves, but shown time and again that when actual alliances roll in there, they trample the residents. What a load of BS! AFAIK the only 'actual alliance' to move into the Drone Regions was MC, and they didn't go far. Our alliance has killed off 2 alliances that were weak and helped Razor/MM regain what they lost. We came here on Day 1 and built/conqured everything we own. If anything, the Drone Regions should give you a good impression of what will happen if new space is opened up: Major Powers did not scoop up space, many new alliances popped up and some were popped down. The challenges of making and Empire out of nothing chased off alot of people, while those same challenges attracted some people. There was a Gold Rush in the early days and dissillusionment at the myriad of problems with Moons, Asteroids, NPC's, Exploration, etc. Eve is too small. More regions would be great.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:16:00 - [137] WHile I agree that 00 can be filled up if 00 ratting were made wtf10000x more profitable than lvl4's, you'll need to do this while balancing inflation. Cause throwing even more ISK into the system cant be good. If anything, increase the sinks, reduce lvl4 rewards, increase security rating for far distant regions while increasing some of the middle regions will work to correct the shortcomings of earning in 00. As for making space bigger, I really think removing local may do some good. But the biggest change will be to make some constellations more appealing. For example, in Fade there's one constellation worth a damn. You either own it, or you move elsewhere. The difference in ISK between it, around -.6 and up, and the other systems, -.5 and below, is quite stark. ----------------- Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:24:00 - [138] 0.0 is too intimidating to most empire players . because look what happens they jump a gate an WTF they die . you cant expect people to populate low infastructure , low content space . 0.0 is just a cash cow you make a big wad of money working in the wasteland then come back to civilisation to spend it . i have lived in 0.0 most of my eve career and im only there for the money and pvp . signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected]) why dont you just tell me ?
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:27:00 - [139] Originally by: Princess Jodi Originally by: fugazii Initially it would create a vacuum bringing people there, like the drone regions have done. However the unfortunate part of the drone regions is, and i mean no offense by this, full of people who only own space because there was no one there already claiming it. They fight amongst themselves, but shown time and again that when actual alliances roll in there, they trample the residents. What a load of BS! AFAIK the only 'actual alliance' to move into the Drone Regions was MC, and they didn't go far. Our alliance has killed off 2 alliances that were weak and helped Razor/MM regain what they lost. We came here on Day 1 and built/conqured everything we own. If anything, the Drone Regions should give you a good impression of what will happen if new space is opened up: Major Powers did not scoop up space, many new alliances popped up and some were popped down. The challenges of making and Empire out of nothing chased off alot of people, while those same challenges attracted some people. There was a Gold Rush in the early days and dissillusionment at the myriad of problems with Moons, Asteroids, NPC's, Exploration, etc. Eve is too small. More regions would be great. Ya know, you've got a great point. The drone region area of the map is always the funnest to look at. TOns of pretty blobs of color and constant changing. But to mimic that with new space would require the same circumstances that the drone region release introduced: different rats that scared off the old establishment, an area of the map where the confrontation wasnt facing the new areas (RAGOON/BoB, BoB/ASCN, RA/vs. ASCN everyone; D2IRON/MCBOB all were fought away from the regions, thereby reducing the attn they got. In addition, the North East has always been devoid of a cohesive long-term force, and the south East has always looked west, and not North. Adding new territory would be problematic. Anywhere you put it, it would be next to space-greedy, powerful organizations. LIttle guys wouldnt be able to hold onto it, or even get their mouse-sized claws into it before a roaming gang came through and popped whatever they ahd going. ----------------- Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:08:00 - [140] Originally by: Devian 666 Hehe just read the comments about taxing people in your sov space. That'd be great charge ratters 5% tax to use your space and have the ability to charge 100% tax to people in npc corps ratting in your space. That idea is more beautiful than the poetry of P. B. Shelley, and P.B. Shelley wrote some pretty good poetry. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Lianlan Lou ISK Farmer and Sweatshop INC.	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:56:00 - [141] Originally by: ardik CCP need to fix the -0.01 true sec systems that barely spawn kernite, those systems are just a waste of space. More space? No thanks, i like to occasionally see other people in MMOs. Originally by: NATMav I always thought the truesec should be affected by activity in the system. An over-farmed system slowly gains security, becoming less valuable, while unused systems slowly go lower and become more valuable. It would ecourage players to spread out more instead of fighting over a few good systems per region and hanging around the stations all the time. It works pretty well with mining...if you strip mine a system, you have to move on to another sytstem, or wait for the roids to regen. The most popular idea in this thread seems to be to find a way to make the "crap" systems better than high sec. I like NATmav's idea for a dynamic true-sec rating. The size of eve is ok as it is, maybe someday they will open up the Jovian space, but until then i think that the size of EvE is fine. signature goes here
Zenethalos	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:51:00 - [142] Edited by: Zenethalos on 26/11/2007 19:55:43 Since I dont know how to update my info before I be accused of posting with an alt blah blah, I am from a corp called "White Shadow Imperium" and belong to the alliance "Burning Horizons". I havnt taken the time to read the last 3 pages but heh. The issue isn't more needing more space its using the space that is not being used. To the mega alliances it is the shiholes of the region they dont want to bother defending. As soon as a smaller alliance of say 300 like my own attempts to claim these not as good systems for ourselvs we are either told to pay rent, or told to tear down and relocate. Its really a lose lose situation for the smaller alliances not wanting 1000+ members. We are happy with having only 150 active and a small cap fleet because we do not want all the POS warfare attached to owning vast ammounts of space, or the logistics involved. We just want a constolation to ourselves where we can anchor a few towers to work out of and build our own oupost, and this goes for a lot of small content alliances of 300-400 members. Ultimatly we fall victim to logical falicies in believing that more space equals more oprotunity, or that the same ammount of space is fine because a lot of it is unclaimed, were just arguing in circles. What we need is larger alliances that dont want the damned space to stop being a buncha god damn jws and let the smaller guys that are willing to claim it, use it, and assist in the over all defence of the area do so without rediculous demands such as: half of your moon minerals will be donated to us, you will pay 100m for the alliance plus 50m+ per corp, you will not be a loud to sell items in our territory, blah blah. It creates hostilities and a lack of willingness to assist our larger allies. Overall it would probably be a lot more beneficial to allow us to police that space and work beside you. I know 4 300man alliances with 200-250 active mains that would actually help out blue allies if they were not treated with hostility for doing just that. That right there adds almost 1000 people willing to assist our larger neighbors out of amenity. Essentially in my rant the idea I am trying to portay is the ammount of space is fine, its the attitudes of the larger alliances and their greed that make it seem small or like there is not enough room because they wont claim it, but at the same time wont let allies use it.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:58:00 - [143] To wall of text rantman above ^^. If you have 250 active mains you can potentially wield an effective fighting force. Where diplomacy fails it's time to start shooting people until they're prepared to give you something. We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.
Rogen DarHeel	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:01:00 - [144] Back to the original question: Does EVE need more space? Well I think EVE is suppose to model a galaxy. If you take a look at the interactive map, it does look like a galaxy some what. However, lets take our own Milky Way Galaxy as an example. Scientists estimate that it has about 400 billion stars... 400 billion. It is also about 90,000 light years across. So unless the EVE galaxy was meant to remain a pathetic excuse for a real one, I think the EVE galaxy, should definitely have more stars. The thing about a 90,000 light year across galaxy is that it is immensely difficult for a 15 ly jump range ship to cross. I think a fix for this though is not adding new EVE regions way out on the ends of the EVE galaxy but to add these new stars in the middle of the galaxy, change the measure of distance that determines the size of the galaxy and then make the jump ranges of jump capable ships much longer. With this model of reformation, the EVE galaxy could increase to the size of a real galaxy as technology permits. Can you image the number of players, the number of alliances and the massive fighting that would occur!?!? It would be stupendous!! >:)
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:20:00 - [145] Originally by: Rogen DarHeel Back to the original question: Does EVE need more space? Well I think EVE is suppose to model a galaxy. If you take a look at the interactive map, it does look like a galaxy some what. However, lets take our own Milky Way Galaxy as an example. Scientists estimate that it has about 400 billion stars... 400 billion. It is also about 90,000 light years across. So unless the EVE galaxy was meant to remain a pathetic excuse for a real one, I think the EVE galaxy, should definitely have more stars. The thing about a 90,000 light year across galaxy is that it is immensely difficult for a 15 ly jump range ship to cross. I think a fix for this though is not adding new EVE regions way out on the ends of the EVE galaxy but to add these new stars in the middle of the galaxy, change the measure of distance that determines the size of the galaxy and then make the jump ranges of jump capable ships much longer. With this model of reformation, the EVE galaxy could increase to the size of a real galaxy as technology permits. Can you image the number of players, the number of alliances and the massive fighting that would occur!?!? It would be stupendous!! >:) EVE's about the size of a medium star cluster. Mankind tried harder to emulate a full sized galaxy.
Tasuric Orka Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:26:00 - [146] Originally by: awebon Originally by: Niedar Allow the destruction of outposts and all will be good ;0 this is perfect... Indeed, it would be good to be able to bust a fatality on a ailing alliance by taking down their fortress of ship/clone spawning.
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:29:00 - [147] There are vast area's of 0.0 that are unpopulated and the reason is simple. People tend to want the high end ores and rats, those spots are where the fights area. You can get in the drone lands and easly go 60 jumps or more and not see anyone unless yous specifly head to one of the outpost systems. And a system that is worth having is probibly already occupied and is so strong that any empire based corp could not take it out. It's usually another 0.0 alliance that has the resources and numbers to take new systems. -John
Graalum Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.26 21:41:00 - [148] Edited by: Graalum on 26/11/2007 21:42:07 Originally by: Haniblecter Teg WHile I agree that 00 can be filled up if 00 ratting were made wtf10000x more profitable than lvl4's, you'll need to do this while balancing inflation. Cause throwing even more ISK into the system cant be good. If anything, increase the sinks, reduce lvl4 rewards, increase security rating for far distant regions while increasing some of the middle regions will work to correct the shortcomings of earning in 00. As for making space bigger, I really think removing local may do some good. But the biggest change will be to make some constellations more appealing. For example, in Fade there's one constellation worth a damn. You either own it, or you move elsewhere. The difference in ISK between it, around -.6 and up, and the other systems, -.5 and below, is quite stark. If anything the current status of eve is marked by deflation, not inflation. Have you checked the price on BS lately? You can buy them for nearly cheap enough that your insuace on your last bs will pay will the ship and reinsure., a clear sign that there isn't enough isk around. Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:11:00 - [149] Edited by: Mattduk on 26/11/2007 22:12:29 Inflation and deflation aren't just about prices. Inflation is a greater increase of spendable money within an economy in relation to the increase in population. More isk is generated daily in Eve, via faucets, than is removed, via sinks. This is inflation. The rate at which the quantity of isk existing in game increases is not matched by the increase in population. However, since supply and demand actually control prices in a free market economy, you can have inflation and a decrease in prices at the same time. On topic however, I feel that new regions would be cool. I can see the logic in a lot of the posts here. I agree that a lot of the space is useless and the 'good' areas of 0.0 are curretly blobbed to high heaven, increasing the barriers to entry for a huge portion of players. I also agree that some of the 0.0 space needs to be made more valuable and Empire needs to be made less valuable, to the point where 0.0 is financially worth it. It sickens me to see how quickly younger players are filling their wallets with way more spending power than I ever had after 6 months in the game and at the same time, they are doing it with 0 risk. This is very bad in my opinion. Money makes the world go round lads, there's no denying it. Move the rewards away from empire and towards 0.0 and you will fill those empty null sec systems. Then you can decide if there is enough space. Regards Mattduk
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:50:00 - [150] Originally by: Volir Make the crap 0.0 space worth something. Make lowsec worth something. How about we move the agents? All level 4s are moved to lowsec and nullsec. All level 5s are in nullsec. Upgrade the encounter system for nullsec. Booyah, Empire is nerfed, lowsec is boosted, and nullsec gets some love. There are millions of threads covering these suggestions. This is the reason why I have discussed rewards in a generic sense as it's not about forcing people into low sec or 0.0. We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.



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