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Dragon Lord Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.24 00:19:00 - [1] Edited by: Dragon Lord on 24/11/2007 00:26:07 Ok, so i decided i wanted to see how good this ship was, now torps are out due to range and i dont wanna screw my cap recharge by fitting missile speed rigs. So anyway after the lastest mirror, i could train marauders and it is now at lvl2. So i fit 4 cn bcus, 2 t2 ccc's, nice tank with sensor booster (scan res script) my range is already 112.5kms, and a t2 target painter, I load up 4 cn cruise launchers 2 tractors and a slavager. So i run a few missions, and i gotta say im suprised, this ship despite having a much slower rof than the cnr, 8.3s as apposed to 6.2s, it takes out the small fry amazingly quickly, infact i think its faster at killing smaller ships than my cruise cnr. It 1 vollys bc's and t1 cruisers once u paint them, and if ur shooting bs's and still have frigs around, target painting a frig ur drones are shooting at makes a hell of a difference. Ok so what about defenders? well i didnt realy notice them to be honest, only seemed to loose a missile every so oftern and the andvantage of double dmg launchers is you effectivly have to reload less than half as oftern as a cnr. It also means u use far less missiles which saves you alot of isk. And the other thing i thought about is training my targeting skill so i can target 10 targets instead of my current 7, and fit 3 tractors. My plan? simple use the golems awsome tractor ability to get my cans all close by, while i pwn the rats, then bookmark the location. Come back in a ship rigged and set for looting and slavaging and away i go. The other great thing about this ship is u can carry over 5k of each cruise missile type in ur cargo and still have alot of space, so no leaving the station with the wrong ammo. which us missioners have all done. The Golem also has an incredible tank, im boosting over 1100hp a second with my lowest res at 75% so lets just say golem = tanking easy mode. All in all im very impressed. Not only does it seem to be as fast as the cnr with cruise, it actually seams a little faster. I belive i did smugglers intersept in less than 10 minutes, ok its not bs heavy but thats faster than my twin target painter torp cnr can do it on traquility. I need to run some more missions but so far, im very impressed with the golem, even without a rof bonus this ship is excellent. The slower rof also helps reduce the amount of missiles you waste, coz unless you watch very carfully i oftern saw a good few missiles from my cnr just shoot of into space because the target was dead. In the case of the golem, i dont think i saw any of the missiles fly off. And this could be a reason as to why the golem is actually faster than the cnr, because loosing cruise due to ships being dead reduces ur actual dps. Also if you add reload time into the equation the actual dps you get from a golem could well be more than the actual dps you get from a cnr.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.11.24 01:20:00 - [2] Sadly, with a similar number of BCS and the same size class of launchers, the DPS of the golem is lower than that of the CNR. However, the painting bonus (+ a painter of course) along with the explosion velocity bonus, especially if you have good skills, goes quite a long way towards giving an 'effective' damage output increase. Have you tried doing a level 5 with one? -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.24 05:52:00 - [3] so basically for my T2 bs i get a very effective cruiser killer, with a tank worse then what i have now with t2 hardeners (80%+, boost 1100+- no faction modules using a cnr killing bs's in 3-7 volley's at max, with torps, 5-13 with cruiser. (the 7 and 13 is those rats your not really suppose to kill while the 3 and 5 is those you need to kill normally) :S ehhh.... should i be happy now :S compared to any other t2 ship in the game, this ship sucks ass, it should never have been a t2 but a T1 new type ship... sigh
Dragon Lord Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.24 09:22:00 - [4] well i was using a omni tank, 2 dread invul a em t2 a amp and a xl booster, so that does leave 2 more slots if you want pure tank. Anyway im finding it faster than my cnr, and ive flown a faction fitted torp cnr and a faction fitted cruise cnr, and i can run angle ganza + the bonus room in under 5 minutes in all 3. I did think that the difference between cruise and torp missile speed was huge, but myabe its not so big
Rita Death	Posted - 2007.11.24 10:56:00 - [5] try going ageinst guristas and tell us how offen you are jammed
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.24 10:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Buyerr Edited by: Buyerr on 24/11/2007 06:33:08 so basically for my T2 bs i get a very effective cruiser killer, with a tank worse then what i have now with t2 hardeners (80%+, boost 1100+- no faction modules using a cnr killing bs's in 3-7 volley's at max, with torps, 5-13 with cruiser. (the 7 and 13 is those rats your not really suppose to kill while the 3 and 5 is those you need to kill normally) :S ehhh.... should i be happy now :S besides i already kill any cruiser/bc in 2 hits with cruise (not the hac thing though.) :S compared to any other t2 ship in the game, this ship sucks ass, it should never have been a t2 but a T1 new type ship... sigh 2 volleys on cnr = 12 seconds 1 volley on the golem = 8 seconds so while killing cruiser/bcs this is quite a killspeed booost.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:03:00 - [7] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Buyerr Edited by: Buyerr on 24/11/2007 06:33:08 so basically for my T2 bs i get a very effective cruiser killer, with a tank worse then what i have now with t2 hardeners (80%+, boost 1100+- no faction modules using a cnr killing bs's in 3-7 volley's at max, with torps, 5-13 with cruiser. (the 7 and 13 is those rats your not really suppose to kill while the 3 and 5 is those you need to kill normally) :S ehhh.... should i be happy now :S besides i already kill any cruiser/bc in 2 hits with cruise (not the hac thing though.) :S compared to any other t2 ship in the game, this ship sucks ass, it should never have been a t2 but a T1 new type ship... sigh 2 volleys on cnr = 12 seconds 1 volley on the golem = 8 seconds so while killing cruiser/bcs this is quite a killspeed booost. And ... actually your tank doesn't _have_ to be worse - you have 7 midslots, rather than 6. And better yet, you also 'free' a midslot, because your shield boosting bonus can take the place of a shield boost amplifier. So it'd be correct to say that you can fit THE SAME tank, using only 5 mid slots, leaving two spare for ... well more tank, or maybe that painter, or whatever. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Gul Rashen Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:18:00 - [8] Would be nice to test the Golem against Rachen Mysuna in Vengeance-Missi without AB and compare it to the CNR. He orbits in >40k and is the biggest Defenderspammer i know, so if the Defenders are the Dead for the Golem-DPS we will see it here.
Dragon Lord Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:20:00 - [9] Ok first timing for the golem on angel ganza, didnt do the bonus room as i forgot the tag lol Time: 29 minutes Thats using just faction and deadspace gear, no fancy officer stuff. I think im right in saying thats as fast as a torp cnr, but please enlighten me if im wrong

CCP Gangleri	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:38:00 - [10] Posting here only to correct a couple of misconceptions: NPC's have a chance of firing a defender per missile launched at them, it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. NPC's that target jam are not a problem for these ships.

Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:42:00 - [11] Originally by: CCP Gangleri Posting here only to correct a couple of misconceptions: NPC's have a chance of firing a defender per missile launched at them, it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. NPC's that target jam are not a problem for these ships. wait... "npc's that target jam are nota problem for these ships" - This means they get some type of e-war immunity. What is the extent of this? are they immune to tracking disruptors? sensor damps? web/scramble?!
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:50:00 - [12] Maybe he's referring to the fact that NPC jamming is entirely chance based and doesn't use your actual sensor strength at all?
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.11.24 17:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Lance Fighter Originally by: CCP Gangleri Posting here only to correct a couple of misconceptions: NPC's have a chance of firing a defender per missile launched at them, it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. NPC's that target jam are not a problem for these ships. wait... "npc's that target jam are nota problem for these ships" - This means they get some type of e-war immunity. What is the extent of this? are they immune to tracking disruptors? sensor damps? web/scramble?! No, that's not what he was saying at all. NPC Jamming is a pure chance and not related to your ship's sensor strength. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Dragon Lord Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.24 18:16:00 - [14] Edited by: Dragon Lord on 24/11/2007 18:22:08 Edited by: Dragon Lord on 24/11/2007 18:19:42 Ok bit better test, the assault, its very bs heavy, now i killed everything in both rooms in 32 minutes with the golem. Not sure how fast a torp cnr can do it but i think 32 minutes is fast. Ok my best twin painter cnr time for the assault was 31 minutes so the golem was a little slower but lets not forget the golems using cruise missiles in this test, where as the cnr that did it in 31 minutes was using torps Oh and a fair few of the bs's on this mission orbit at 50kms, so if ur going to use torps for this mish post rev 3 use javs and missle speed rigs
Ivor Gunn No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition	Posted - 2007.11.24 18:17:00 - [15] Originally by: CCP Gangleri it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. So you're saying the golem does more dps than the CNR?
Chi Quan DEFCON. Phoenix Allianz	Posted - 2007.11.24 18:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Ivor Gunn Originally by: CCP Gangleri it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. So you're saying the golem does more dps than the CNR? Ganglieri was referring to the chance based defender launches. the reason the Golem does not outclass a CNR is that the later is harder to obtain than a Golem. -- Tempus fugit -- quote spiralJunkie: it doesn't matter how you pronounce it, it still shoots you in the face
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2007.11.24 20:03:00 - [17] Originally by: Chi Quan Originally by: Ivor Gunn Originally by: CCP Gangleri it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. So you're saying the golem does more dps than the CNR? Ganglieri was referring to the chance based defender launches. the reason the Golem does not outclass a CNR is that the later is harder to obtain than a Golem. CNR's are going wholesale on tq thanks to the lol-p store ?
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.24 20:24:00 - [18] the fact of the matter is that IT IS NOT COMPARABLE TO ANY OTHER T2 SHIP!!! it is a freaking T1 SHIP! that cost as a T2 and takes the T2 bs "tank/damagers" slot which ruins any hope for those that have been crying for years about getting a T2 bs. so there, you SUCK when you creates something as stupid as this... would have been awesome and nice as a T1 ship but as a T2 bs, taking away our "hac", "cap-killer or "gank" type bs it totally blows!
Rezerwowy Pies	Posted - 2007.11.24 20:30:00 - [19] Edited by: Rezerwowy Pies on 24/11/2007 20:35:10 Originally by: Dragon Lord So i fit 4 cn bcus, 2 t2 ccc's, nice tank with sensor booster (scan res script) my range is already 112.5kms, and a t2 target painter, I load up 4 cn cruise launchers 2 tractors and a slavager. It also means u use far less missiles which saves you alot of isk. Sure. And 2x CCC T2, 4x Caldari Navy Cruise, 4x Caldari Navy BCU is for free? You are funny guy, have isks for faction fittings, but no for missiles? Originally by: CCP Gangleri NPC's have a chance of firing a defender per missile launched at them, it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. Yea nice story, but you forgot that if NPC destroy one missile from golem, you loosing 25% of your dps. Cruise missile from golem hits 2x harder, but its easy to destroy like any other cruise missile from t1 raven. Besides CNR have 7 launchers with -25% rof. You think that this is worse than "8" launchers (well 4 with +100% dmg bonus )without 25% rof?
Elmicker The Scope	Posted - 2007.11.24 20:56:00 - [20] Originally by: CCP Gangleri it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. No it's not. . Loss of 1 missile from a raven is 1/6 of your volley damage lost. Loss of 1 missile from a Golem is 1/4 of your volley damage lost. It's even more pronounced on the CNR, which deals more DPS to start with. Easily fixable, mind. Just change the bonus from 100% damage to 100% damage and 100% missile hp.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.11.24 21:15:00 - [21] Edited by: El''essar Viocragh on 24/11/2007 21:17:20 Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: CCP Gangleri it is a myth that Golem suffers less DPS than CNR due to fewer launhcers. No it's not. . Loss of 1 missile from a raven is 1/6 of your volley damage lost. Loss of 1 missile from a Golem is 1/4 of your volley damage lost. It's even more pronounced on the CNR, which deals more DPS to start with. Easily fixable, mind. Just change the bonus from 100% damage to 100% damage and 100% missile hp. And per volley fired the Golem rolls the defender dice 4 times and the Raven rolls it 6 times. Taking a defender chance of 25% because it is easy to calculate, the Golem will do 75% of its dps as 1 cruise of every volley is lost. The Raven will lose 1.5 cruises per volley on average, which is incidentally also 25%, resulting in 75% of its dps dealt on average too. The CNR rolls the dice 7 times per volley resulting in an average loss of 1.75 cruises per volley, or... SURPRISE 25% of its dps. Basic math, you know? -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Dragon Lord Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.24 22:32:00 - [22] Edited by: Dragon Lord on 24/11/2007 22:33:30 look i wanted a t2 bs hac as much as the next man but it was never going to happen, Im just showing people that this ship is better than alot of people are giving it credit for. As for saving money on missiles, do i shoot npcs with cn bcu's? load them into my launchers and fire? erh no, cn bcus can be sold if you need the isk, they dont get used up like missiles, thats the difference. Pimping ur ship speeds up missions, reducing the amount of isk you have to spend all the time on ammo, saves you isk and thus makes u more isk because you didint spend it on missiles. Now as the few times ive posted times show, the golem is comparable to the cnr in mission speed, dont belive me? get on sisi and run angel ganza in less than 30 minutes in a cnr and then try the same thing in a golem. With similar fit Actually i could do with more tests from other players, using the golem and the cnr. But so far the golem can compete with the cnr.
Rezerwowy Pies	Posted - 2007.11.24 22:58:00 - [23] Edited by: Rezerwowy Pies on 24/11/2007 23:01:57 Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Taking a defender chance of 25% because it is easy to calculate, the Golem will do 75% of its dps as 1 cruise of every volley is lost. The Raven will lose 1.5 cruises per volley on average, which is incidentally also 25%, resulting in 75% of its dps dealt on average too. The CNR rolls the dice 7 times per volley resulting in an average loss of 1.75 cruises per volley, or... SURPRISE 25% of its dps. Another noob which doesnt know what he talking. Defender chance isnt 25% (solid), its less: For example Angel Malakim (bs) have 13.5%, Sansha Mutant Lord (bs) have 11%. And guess what - raven will lose 1 of 6 cruise missiles, CNR will lose 1 of 7 cruise missiles, Golem will lose SURPRISE 1 of 4 missile. You see difference??
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies Edited by: Rezerwowy Pies on 24/11/2007 23:01:57 Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Taking a defender chance of 25% because it is easy to calculate, the Golem will do 75% of its dps as 1 cruise of every volley is lost. The Raven will lose 1.5 cruises per volley on average, which is incidentally also 25%, resulting in 75% of its dps dealt on average too. The CNR rolls the dice 7 times per volley resulting in an average loss of 1.75 cruises per volley, or... SURPRISE 25% of its dps. Another noob which doesnt know what he talking. Defender chance isnt 25% (solid), its less: For example Angel Malakim (bs) have 13.5%, Sansha Mutant Lord (bs) have 11%. And guess what - raven will lose 1 of 6 cruise missiles, CNR will lose 1 of 7 cruise missiles, Golem will lose SURPRISE 1 of 4 missile. You see difference?? I see a nice example of how it does not work. an 11% chance of launching a defender launcher means on average, 11% of all launched missiles are destroyed OR of every volley on average a CNR loses 0.77 cruise missiles, a Raven loses 0.66 cruise missiles and a Golem loses 0.44 cruise missiles. All ships lose 11% of their dps on average. 13.5% chance is 0.945, 0.81 and 0.54 resp. with a dps loss of 13.5% on average. Although each defender fired against the Golem has double the effect then against either Raven, the relative difference between the Golem's dps and the ravens' does not change in the end. -- stuff --
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:05:00 - [25] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 25/11/2007 00:08:49 Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies Another noob which doesnt know what he alking. Nice Self-referential humor ... According to the devs posting here, each missile has a chance X to generate a NPC defender. We assume that each defender actually destroys exactly one missile. A golem shooting 1.000 volleys (4.000 missiles) at a BS with defender chance of 0.11 (realistic number) will do the damage equivalent of 890 volleys, landing 890*4=3560 missiles, a DPS loss of 11% ... (on average) A CNR shooting 1000 volleys (7000 missiles) will do 890 volley equivalents, landing 6230 missiles, a DPS loss of 11% ... (on average) Where you (might be) are correct is that a CNR losing 1 out of 7 missiles might still volley a ship, where a Golem losing 1 out of 4 missiles wont. Obviously, this has to be calculated for every damn NPC ship, and besides, ships you usually want to one/two volley have a very low defender chance anyway.
Rezerwowy Pies	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:01:00 - [26] Edited by: Rezerwowy Pies on 25/11/2007 01:01:37 Originally by: Argenton Sayvers ships you usually want to one/two volley have a very low defender chance anyway. Watch your missiles. Launch from for example 80km of bs sized NPC, never all missiles hits.
Hoshi Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies Edited by: Rezerwowy Pies on 25/11/2007 01:01:37 Originally by: Argenton Sayvers ships you usually want to one/two volley have a very low defender chance anyway. Watch your missiles. Launch from for example 80km of bs sized NPC, never all missiles hits. Only if you use cruise missiles, since more than one defender is needed to kill a torp you very rarely got one shot down. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies Another noob which doesnt know what he talking. Another noob which cannot read. I explicitly stated the 25% are an example figure because it is easy to calculate with 25%, i.e. you don't need a calculator to verify my example. But alas, I stand corrected. You need one even for that example. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.11.25 02:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies Edited by: Rezerwowy Pies on 25/11/2007 01:01:37 Originally by: Argenton Sayvers ships you usually want to one/two volley have a very low defender chance anyway. Watch your missiles. Launch from for example 80km of bs sized NPC, never all missiles hits. So you want to one-volley Battleships? May i suggest the Phoenix? Anyway, all data i have seems to suggest that the information the Devs have posted in here is correct, and that each time a missile is fired at a NPC ship, there is a chance of X (use a data browser to find out X for the specific ship you are shooting)to launch a defender missile. That defender may or may not destroy a missile, depending on situation. Since you are making "interesting" claims, how about some proof? I dont really want to write a damn parser for damage logs ...
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:48:00 - [30] Originally by: Rezerwowy Pies Edited by: Rezerwowy Pies on 24/11/2007 23:01:57 Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Taking a defender chance of 25% because it is easy to calculate, the Golem will do 75% of its dps as 1 cruise of every volley is lost. The Raven will lose 1.5 cruises per volley on average, which is incidentally also 25%, resulting in 75% of its dps dealt on average too. The CNR rolls the dice 7 times per volley resulting in an average loss of 1.75 cruises per volley, or... SURPRISE 25% of its dps. Another noob which doesnt know what he talking. Defender chance isnt 25% (solid), its less: For example Angel Malakim (bs) have 13.5%, Sansha Mutant Lord (bs) have 11%. And guess what - raven will lose 1 of 6 cruise missiles, CNR will lose 1 of 7 cruise missiles, Golem will lose SURPRISE 1 of 4 missile. You see difference?? Ooooh. And 4 jammmers each with a chance of 25% gives you a 100% chance of jamming... right? --- Proud Amarr pilot.

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